IT compensation comparison

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almostretired1965
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by almostretired1965 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:10 pm

visualguy wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:51 pm
almostretired1965 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:11 pm
Nothing, though, is quite like going through it live. It can be very stressful. I consider myself really good at taking tests and thinking on my feet, but sometimes your brain just freezes. I got, in hindsight, a pretty simple recursion based, number theory problem on one of these. Any other day I would have been able to solve it in 10 minutes, but due to sheer stubbornness (and pride I suppose) refused to follow the subtle hints the interviewer tried to give me. Needless to say, that sanked my candidacy. My guess is that the stubbornness probably did more damage than actually failing to solve the exercise, but it was a useful lesson learned.
Did this "recursion based, number theory problem" have anything to do with what you would have needed to do for this job?
Nope ..... Interestingly enough, while all the puzzles I had to solve that day were somewhat stylized, this was the only one that didn't even pretend to be practical.

StandingRock
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by StandingRock » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:13 pm

stocknoob4111 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:59 pm
Software Engineer salaries vary wildly, for the exact same job, experience and ability one company may pay someone $200k TC and the other may offer only $100k. If you search Indeed.com there are a ton of job postings in Southern California offering salaries as low as $75k but they want 10+ years experience in Software Engineering, a BS in Computer Science and a long list of the hottest tech skills. Not sure if these are fake posts or the people hiring there are delusional.

To get a fair idea I see what the government is paying as that info is public:

https://transparentcalifornia.com/salar ... e+engineer

I do see a few salaries in the Bay Area around $150k/yr or so. I would add around 10% for a mid level private company, so i'm guessing around $165k/yr or so TC in the Bay Area which isn't much because the COL there is beyond insane.

In my experience typical TC (Base + Bonus + misc) for a Software Engineer is around $120k-130k/yr in Southern California, the pay here is not as good as the Bay Area but the COL is cheaper. Also, most companies don't offer stock/equity.
Companies pay what they pay, for the most part. It makes sense for the high-tech companies to pay well for software engineers, because that's their core business typically. It doesn't make sense for a manufacturer, bank, retailer, shipper, steel company, etc. to do the same thing. The only exceptions being people with rare expertise. I knew a guy once that was making $250 an hour because he was an expert with the ABAP programming language and the company could not find anyone else. That is obviously not sustainable though.

knightrider
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by knightrider » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:17 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:28 am
I worked at a megacorp in software development of large scale bill payments. Large scale is several million line items for 250 companies a day. At the end after about 35 years of experience I made about 110k. None f this 150-250k business. I think pay is commensurate to how import the software development s to the business.
This reflects what I saw working 15+ years at a megacorp in the Midwest in automotive field. They liked to do everything themselves and had many people developing very sophisticated in-house software. Stuff like 3D CAD modelling and multi-physics simulation. The developers were mostly doing it in c++.

The interesting thing is almost none of them had any formal training in CS. They just had degrees in Mechanical/Aerospace/Civil engineering... That's why I keep saying background in CS is not needed at all to create sophisticated software. Unlike other highly paid professional fields like..

Most of these folks probably earned in the 100-150k range.. I always wondered why they didn't look for a higher paying job with their superstar skills..

KyleAAA
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:36 pm

knightrider wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:17 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:28 am
I worked at a megacorp in software development of large scale bill payments. Large scale is several million line items for 250 companies a day. At the end after about 35 years of experience I made about 110k. None f this 150-250k business. I think pay is commensurate to how import the software development s to the business.
This reflects what I saw working 15+ years at a megacorp in the Midwest in automotive field. They liked to do everything themselves and had many people developing very sophisticated in-house software. Stuff like 3D CAD modelling and multi-physics simulation. The developers were mostly doing it in c++.

The interesting thing is almost none of them had any formal training in CS. They just had degrees in Mechanical/Aerospace/Civil engineering... That's why I keep saying background in CS is not needed at all to create sophisticated software. Unlike other highly paid professional fields like..

Most of these folks probably earned in the 100-150k range.. I always wondered why they didn't look for a higher paying job with their superstar skills..
Again, none of that comes close to approximating what engineers are building at the top tier companies. I wouldn't describe any of that as "sophisticated." Some of it may have been, but there's nothing there I personally would consider especially relevant as a hiring manager at one of those companies.

novemberrain
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by novemberrain » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:59 pm

simas wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:27 am

it is usually overstated if taken 'on average'. self-selection, only few locales (very high cost of living) participate, people do it as a form of bragging.
also, 3 years of tenure is not 3 years of experience - you can have 20 years of experience and 3 years of tenure in particular company..

do not put any real attention on this, focus on your options where you want to live and work.

the other item is that high comp people get cleaned very regularly - I worked for Schwab before (years ago) and yesterday/today they layed off hundreds of tech people (still VERY profitable company, sorry we can find people cheaper). The people who are gone were in 100-160 range with 10+ years of experience. if 'average comp' is 180k (which is not true), then Schwab would never layoff people being paid significantly less than that knowing that it could hire tech talent for even cheaper and still have a line out of the door of dozens of applicants for each position.
Schwab is not a tech company. It is an IT company. It employs legions of average software engineers and a few good ones.
In short, do not waste your time on this. most of this is bragging BS.
Silicon valley tech salaries might be an eye opener for you IMHO. 200k is the starting total comp here nowadays for fresh grads. 250 to 300 after 5-10 years is the norm.
www.levels.fyi
has pretty accurate numbers.

Again, only at tech companies though. Not in companies like Schwab.

novemberrain
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by novemberrain » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:00 pm

fortunefavored wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:28 am
There's a huge difference between FANGM (the big boys) and everybody else - namely the stock packages and stock compensation.

The short answer is: $180K quite normal at the 3 year mark if you add that all together for software engineers at a top tier tech company. They would likely be earning >$300K in 5+ years.

Everybody else (non-software engineer) is on a different compensation track. Software engineering is in a unique time and place right now.
+1

novemberrain
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by novemberrain » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:05 pm

Watty wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:17 pm
skor99 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:12 am
https://insights.dice.com/2019/09/16/mi ... -salaries/

The link above gives an idea of the average compensation of a typical microsoft employee with 3 years of tenure. It shows total compensation of around 180K including stock and bonuses but not including benefits. Is this normal or are people overstating the numbers ?
3 years is pretty much fresh out of college. Normally IT people in regular ( non silicon valley/seattle ) do not come close to these numbers even with 15-20 yrs experience ( except for high level management positions ). Are IT folks working in regular companies ( manufacturing/insurance etc ) chumps ?
One thing to realize is that the FAANG companies and Microsoft probably get a hundred reasonably qualified job applications for every software engineer they hire so you would expect their employees to be in the top few percentiles of the earnings curve.

A friend of my son went to work for one of the FAANG companies in the Bay Area when he was just a couple of years out of college. He probably made something in that ballpark or even more.

He only lasted for about six months before he quite and came back to Atlanta. Part of it was home sickness but he had not been there long enough for the stock grants and bonuses to start so he found that he was not making enough base pay after taxes to pay for a decent apartment and to be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle after paying rent, taxes, student loans, and a car payment. His employer offered free breakfasts, lunches, and dinners so he made a point of eating as many meals there as he could just to save money since his budget was so tight.

He was from Atlanta and a decent software developer with a degree in Computer Science and and a few years of experience in desirable skills can easily make over $100K here and be able to afford to buy a nice home and a nice lifestyle. Even with the higher salary he clearly was not being paid enough to cover the very high cost of living in the Bay Area and it would have taken years of living on a tight budget to have gotten enough pay increases and additional stock grants to be able to afford a lifestyle in the Bay Area comparable to what he could afford here in Atlanta.
I agree Bay Area is VHCOL. But it is indeed accessible to tech employees. 300k total comp is quite doable. If your spouse also has a half decent job, your household income likely approaches 500k. At that income, homes in the $1M to $1.5M range are affordable.

novemberrain
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by novemberrain » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:08 pm

jharkin wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:43 pm
megabad wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:21 am

Well this data seems to reference "software engineers" (an important distinction), not really IT but nonetheless,

This is an important distinction.
- Software developers make a lot more money than traditional "IT" fields like network, database and systems admins,etc
- Within developers, certain specialties (like data science and network security) can make a lot more money than run of the mill web or desktop application development.
-Developers also earn different pay at companies whose primary function is developing software (say MSFT, GOOG), vs developers who work on software back end at non-software companies (like dev working on Schwabs trading platform, or Walmarts eCommerce platform, or the scheduling system at UPS, etc)
- Even within the ranks of "pure" software companies there is a great range as developers typically make more money than supporting roles (like quality assurance, doc/technical writing, tech support) but may in turn make less than business roles like customer facing product management.
- Then you have the big pay gap between the FAANGs/MIcrosoft, and everyone else (a Dell developer doesn't likely make anywhere near what a Netflix developer does, for example)
- And even within the same company there may be a big salary spread between the valley and other locations.
bingo.

I would also add service consulting companies (TCS / Wipro etc) to this list. They are the lowest paid . Directors there make the same amount that an entry level software engineer makes at FAANMG.

simas
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by simas » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm

novemberrain wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:59 pm
Silicon valley tech salaries might be an eye opener for you IMHO. 200k is the starting total comp here nowadays for fresh grads. 250 to 300 after 5-10 years is the norm.
www.levels.fyi
has pretty accurate numbers.

Again, only at tech companies though. Not in companies like Schwab.
:) only in proper 'tech' companies (whatever that means), only in Silicon Valley, only on blue moon, only blah-blah-blah

useless to anyone else not already in the echo chamber listening to this junk

As I said , useless bragging *yawn*


on a serious note, for anyone reading - do not forget market forces are continuously at work to correct any bubbles. any situation that supply/demand balance creates a distortion for (including such salaries) will of cause get corrected over time. It always does, each and every time, regardless of 'this time it is different' fantasies. Colleges (not only local in US but also international) start to pump out talent who sees $$ in their eyes and everyone from small company to largest corporations in the world is working to make it (be it analytics, solution development, etc ) simpler, faster, cheaper, and more accessible. IT "leaders" who think that blank check will last forever go home to 'spend time with their family' (as the pressure to reduce IT per dollar of revenue does not go away) . I personally toured many places that build software the living (pivotal labs as example) and while they are ok paid they are normal to the market vs bubble fantasies

so 'kids' - enjoy while it last, it will not last forever. same was for 'web development mastery' back in late 90s and many other setups you are probably too young to remember. the world did not start with you and will not end with you, our craft is frequently feast or famine - enjoy the feast while it last, be ready for famine (if you lived through any of real recessions you will know what I mean).

HawkeyePierce
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HawkeyePierce » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:51 pm

At a company like Schwab, software is a cost center.

At a company like Google, it’s a profit center.

That’s the difference between working at a tech company and just working in software anywhere else.

People in profit centers usually make more than people elsewhere. That’s true in every industry.

There’s also a distinction between “commodity” software engineering—building line of business apps and such—and the work done at tech companies. At tech companies you’re doing work that’s often groundbreaking.

My employer isn’t a FAANG but we’ve developed technologies that now form the backbone of a lot of big data applications. These companies operate at a scale few others ever reach. When we launch a new product, on day one we need to handle millions or billions of requests a day. Another difference between Big Tech software and software at other companies.

You’re rarely doing spec work at these companies (also a reason I don’t fear outsourcing). It’s often the case that we don’t necessarily know where we’re going to end up. My team has developed entirely new business models for our company. That’s worth a lot of money! And that’s why we get paid well.

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ram
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by ram » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:44 pm

2Birds1Stone wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:16 pm
Don't want to derail this thread, but one of the first post referenced teacher salaries in CA.

Check out NY, LOL

https://projects.newsday.com/databases/ ... 2017-2018/
I recognized at least one name on the list who is an MD (a physician teacher).
Ram

edge
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by edge » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:08 pm

There just isn’t anything particularly groundbreaking at linked in or Facebook etc etc.

Most of Silicon Valley these days is business model innovation not tech innovation.

Imo the interviewing and competitiveness has more to do with screening out the bottom 80% of the software development workforce who are marginal than it is about finding brilliant ground breaking research/innovator type guys.

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:51 pm
At a company like Schwab, software is a cost center.

At a company like Google, it’s a profit center.

That’s the difference between working at a tech company and just working in software anywhere else.

People in profit centers usually make more than people elsewhere. That’s true in every industry.

There’s also a distinction between “commodity” software engineering—building line of business apps and such—and the work done at tech companies. At tech companies you’re doing work that’s often groundbreaking.

My employer isn’t a FAANG but we’ve developed technologies that now form the backbone of a lot of big data applications. These companies operate at a scale few others ever reach. When we launch a new product, on day one we need to handle millions or billions of requests a day. Another difference between Big Tech software and software at other companies.

You’re rarely doing spec work at these companies (also a reason I don’t fear outsourcing). It’s often the case that we don’t necessarily know where we’re going to end up. My team has developed entirely new business models for our company. That’s worth a lot of money! And that’s why we get paid well.
Last edited by edge on Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brianH
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by brianH » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:51 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:36 pm
Again, none of that comes close to approximating what engineers are building at the top tier companies. I wouldn't describe any of that as "sophisticated." Some of it may have been, but there's nothing there I personally would consider especially relevant as a hiring manager at one of those companies.
Oh come on. For every genius-level engineer at Google/Alphabet working on implementing machine learning algorithms or object-detection for self-driving cars, there's 100s figuring out how to write better CRUD interfaces for AdWords. Not that there's anything wrong with improving Google's primary money-making product, but let's not pretend that it's change-the-world, sophisticated, top-tier work.

HawkeyePierce
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HawkeyePierce » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:07 pm

edge wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:08 pm
There just isn’t anything particularly groundbreaking at linked in or Facebook etc etc.

Most of Silicon Valley these days is business model innovation not tech innovation.

Imo the interviewing and competitiveness has more to do with screening out the bottom 80% of the software development workforce who are marginal than it is about finding brilliant ground breaking research/innovator type guys.

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:51 pm
At a company like Schwab, software is a cost center.

At a company like Google, it’s a profit center.

That’s the difference between working at a tech company and just working in software anywhere else.

People in profit centers usually make more than people elsewhere. That’s true in every industry.

There’s also a distinction between “commodity” software engineering—building line of business apps and such—and the work done at tech companies. At tech companies you’re doing work that’s often groundbreaking.

My employer isn’t a FAANG but we’ve developed technologies that now form the backbone of a lot of big data applications. These companies operate at a scale few others ever reach. When we launch a new product, on day one we need to handle millions or billions of requests a day. Another difference between Big Tech software and software at other companies.

You’re rarely doing spec work at these companies (also a reason I don’t fear outsourcing). It’s often the case that we don’t necessarily know where we’re going to end up. My team has developed entirely new business models for our company. That’s worth a lot of money! And that’s why we get paid well.
LinkedIn invented Apache Kafka which is a groundbreaking messaging system for big data applications and has become an industry all to itself. That’s just one example.

“Kafka was developed at LinkedIn back in 2010, and it currently handles more than 1.4 trillion messages per day across over 1400 brokers.”

https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2 ... t-linkedin

ThatGuy
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by ThatGuy » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:54 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:36 pm
knightrider wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:17 pm
This reflects what I saw working 15+ years at a megacorp in the Midwest in automotive field. They liked to do everything themselves and had many people developing very sophisticated in-house software. Stuff like 3D CAD modelling and multi-physics simulation. The developers were mostly doing it in c++.

The interesting thing is almost none of them had any formal training in CS. They just had degrees in Mechanical/Aerospace/Civil engineering... That's why I keep saying background in CS is not needed at all to create sophisticated software. Unlike other highly paid professional fields like.
Again, none of that comes close to approximating what engineers are building at the top tier companies. I wouldn't describe any of that as "sophisticated." Some of it may have been, but there's nothing there I personally would consider especially relevant as a hiring manager at one of those companies.
Multiphysics simulation isn't sophisticated?

That said, I have a hard time believing simulation software is written without software guys. What I've seen with this sort of thing is that the hard science guy/engineer hacks together a working model and explains how it works, then the software guy actually implements it in a sane manner.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde

novemberrain
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by novemberrain » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:56 pm

simas wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm
novemberrain wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:59 pm
Silicon valley tech salaries might be an eye opener for you IMHO. 200k is the starting total comp here nowadays for fresh grads. 250 to 300 after 5-10 years is the norm.
www.levels.fyi
has pretty accurate numbers.

Again, only at tech companies though. Not in companies like Schwab.
:) only in proper 'tech' companies (whatever that means), only in Silicon Valley, only on blue moon, only blah-blah-blah

useless to anyone else not already in the echo chamber listening to this junk

As I said , useless bragging *yawn*


on a serious note, for anyone reading - do not forget market forces are continuously at work to correct any bubbles. any situation that supply/demand balance creates a distortion for (including such salaries) will of cause get corrected over time. It always does, each and every time, regardless of 'this time it is different' fantasies. Colleges (not only local in US but also international) start to pump out talent who sees $$ in their eyes and everyone from small company to largest corporations in the world is working to make it (be it analytics, solution development, etc ) simpler, faster, cheaper, and more accessible. IT "leaders" who think that blank check will last forever go home to 'spend time with their family' (as the pressure to reduce IT per dollar of revenue does not go away) . I personally toured many places that build software the living (pivotal labs as example) and while they are ok paid they are normal to the market vs bubble fantasies

so 'kids' - enjoy while it last, it will not last forever. same was for 'web development mastery' back in late 90s and many other setups you are probably too young to remember. the world did not start with you and will not end with you, our craft is frequently feast or famine - enjoy the feast while it last, be ready for famine (if you lived through any of real recessions you will know what I mean).
Pivotal labs, like schwab is not a tech company. It is an IT company. And as lots of people in this thread have pointed out, people who have worked in IT their whole life have a hard time imagining that tech companies in SV pay 2x or 5x what IT companies in SV pay.

And thanks for the advise about the famine. I have lived through an IPO windfall. And spouse has a non tech super high paying job . I don't think I will be encountering famine in my life.
Last edited by novemberrain on Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

confused1
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by confused1 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:14 pm

I work at a FAANG company and have been in the Bay Area for 6 years. One massive difference I have noticed is a skill set to design, build and run technology systems that support billions of users. For this scale you are not just installing a couple of Oracle databases and using 50 other servers. You are building a global system consisting of thousands of databases and hundreds of thousands of servers. There is a smaller number of engineers etc that have experience at this scale.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:21 pm

confused1 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:14 pm
I work at a FAANG company and have been in the Bay Area for 6 years. One massive difference I have noticed is a skill set to design, build and run technology systems that support billions of users. For this scale you are not just installing a couple of Oracle databases and using 50 other servers. You are building a global system consisting of thousands of databases and hundreds of thousands of servers. There is a smaller number of engineers etc that have experience at this scale.
+1. This is called webscale, and it is a key differentiator of FAANG engineering.

KyleAAA
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:57 pm

brianH wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:51 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:36 pm
Again, none of that comes close to approximating what engineers are building at the top tier companies. I wouldn't describe any of that as "sophisticated." Some of it may have been, but there's nothing there I personally would consider especially relevant as a hiring manager at one of those companies.
Oh come on. For every genius-level engineer at Google/Alphabet working on implementing machine learning algorithms or object-detection for self-driving cars, there's 100s figuring out how to write better CRUD interfaces for AdWords. Not that there's anything wrong with improving Google's primary money-making product, but let's not pretend that it's change-the-world, sophisticated, top-tier work.
I certainly never pretended any such thing. That's still a far cry from homegrown autocad.

KyleAAA
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:58 pm

ThatGuy wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:54 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:36 pm
knightrider wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:17 pm
This reflects what I saw working 15+ years at a megacorp in the Midwest in automotive field. They liked to do everything themselves and had many people developing very sophisticated in-house software. Stuff like 3D CAD modelling and multi-physics simulation. The developers were mostly doing it in c++.

The interesting thing is almost none of them had any formal training in CS. They just had degrees in Mechanical/Aerospace/Civil engineering... That's why I keep saying background in CS is not needed at all to create sophisticated software. Unlike other highly paid professional fields like.
Again, none of that comes close to approximating what engineers are building at the top tier companies. I wouldn't describe any of that as "sophisticated." Some of it may have been, but there's nothing there I personally would consider especially relevant as a hiring manager at one of those companies.
Multiphysics simulation isn't sophisticated?

That said, I have a hard time believing simulation software is written without software guys. What I've seen with this sort of thing is that the hard science guy/engineer hacks together a working model and explains how it works, then the software guy actually implements it in a sane manner.
It has absolutely nothing to do with being "sophisticated" or not. There just isn't much of an overlapping skillset.

edge
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by edge » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:53 am

Kafka is not groundbreaking. It’s just convenient and free.
HawkeyePierce wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:07 pm
edge wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:08 pm
There just isn’t anything particularly groundbreaking at linked in or Facebook etc etc.

Most of Silicon Valley these days is business model innovation not tech innovation.

Imo the interviewing and competitiveness has more to do with screening out the bottom 80% of the software development workforce who are marginal than it is about finding brilliant ground breaking research/innovator type guys.

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:51 pm
At a company like Schwab, software is a cost center.

At a company like Google, it’s a profit center.

That’s the difference between working at a tech company and just working in software anywhere else.

People in profit centers usually make more than people elsewhere. That’s true in every industry.

There’s also a distinction between “commodity” software engineering—building line of business apps and such—and the work done at tech companies. At tech companies you’re doing work that’s often groundbreaking.

My employer isn’t a FAANG but we’ve developed technologies that now form the backbone of a lot of big data applications. These companies operate at a scale few others ever reach. When we launch a new product, on day one we need to handle millions or billions of requests a day. Another difference between Big Tech software and software at other companies.

You’re rarely doing spec work at these companies (also a reason I don’t fear outsourcing). It’s often the case that we don’t necessarily know where we’re going to end up. My team has developed entirely new business models for our company. That’s worth a lot of money! And that’s why we get paid well.
LinkedIn invented Apache Kafka which is a groundbreaking messaging system for big data applications and has become an industry all to itself. That’s just one example.

“Kafka was developed at LinkedIn back in 2010, and it currently handles more than 1.4 trillion messages per day across over 1400 brokers.”

https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2 ... t-linkedin

ARoseByAnyOtherName
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:06 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:56 am
The difference between tech and those other fields is that tech’s front door is meritocratic. Anyone with the right skill level (or willing to spend the requisite hours on leetcode) can get in at any time. Getting down leveled just means you’re not as talented as you thought.
https://istechameritocracy.com/
https://www.google.com/search?q=tech+meritocracy

mrmass
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by mrmass » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:32 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:49 pm
knightrider wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:40 pm
cbr shadow wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:00 pm
Here we have relatively new software engineers making $250k+, but also have low level IT workers (IT helpdesk) making $85k after 3 years. That's a gigantic difference.
I wonder why every IT person doesn't just get a job as a software engineer then? And why isn't every software engineer in the country relocating to Bay area for these lucrative salaries? There's got to be more to the story. Maybe these high salaries are only for the cream of the crop? Or maybe they come with high expectations of long hours?
Heck, I hear orthopedic surgeons make a lot also. Maybe every software engineer should get a job as an orthopedic surgeon.

“IT person” not the same as “software engineer.”
Just take the new "Orthopedic Surgeon Boot Camp" class. In 12 Weeks you too can be an orthopedic surgeon! 8-)

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by Chan_va » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:41 am

As with most things in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle of the opposing points of view on this thread. (I am in one of the FAANGM companies, and manage 100's of software engineers on my team ranging from people right out of school to Principal Engineers and above). Few points

- IT is not software engineering. Good Software engineers are skilled, rare and highly valuable. Large scale software is complex to build.
- That being said, not all engineers in FAANG are rock stars.
- The reason you see the high compensation quoted in the field is the same reason why your and my Total Market Index has done really well in the last 10 years. The compensation is tied to RSU's, and tech stocks have done more than well in the last decade.
- I wouldn't go as far as to say that there is a bubble in tech comp, but using the terminology of this board, valuations have never been higher. Sooner or later, there will be a correction in tech comp, and just like there are companies today who don't justify their valuations, there will be engineers who don't. The downside (for those of you rooting for these high comp's to come back to earth) is that when it does, your portfolio will take a hit too.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by international001 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:13 pm

knightrider wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:48 am
How many teenagers are surgeons, lawyers and CEOs? Software is not nearly as difficult as you think it is. The barriers to entry are very low and all the information is well documented online.
That's a point if favor of more variance for software skills. Some had time to develop them for many years on your spare time
Doctors usually start developing their specific skills in Universitiy.

The difficulty is different. The average doctor makes his money using more crystallized intelligence vs the engineer who uses more fluid intelligence.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by international001 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:59 pm

vitaflo wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:01 pm
X528 wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:46 pm
What is a typical career trajectory for a software developer? How long does a career last before ageism starts to be felt, if at all for a typical developer?

Do these developer careers at the 200-250K+ salary level make it to retirement age? Is there high turnover in some specialties versus others? Is the threat of layoffs greater in some areas than others (silicon valley versus fly-over country?)?
Honestly it's not hard to make $200k+ in a MCOL midwest city if you know what you're doing regardless of age. I have many friends in their 50's as contract developers making $250k here. There's less supply in fly-over country so the demand is there if you want it.

No you will not be working for FANG companies but to be honest the Valley seems like a joke to me, it's so insanely expensive to live there and is a young person's game (read: overworked). Best kept secret for actually making money in tech (ie, income vs expenses) is the midwest but nobody wants to hear it because everyone is enamored with the coasts. Of course I'm perfectly fine with that. More work for me, or less really cuz I only need to work 40 hours a week.
Yes, the engineers I really admire are those that leave at 5 pm and don't do anything till 9 am next morning.
Well, not those that I admire the most, but many seem to be doing just as well. For a different thread, but sometimes it gets hard to evaluate performance once you are in the corporate threadmill.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by novemberrain » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:22 pm

international001 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:13 pm
knightrider wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:48 am
How many teenagers are surgeons, lawyers and CEOs? Software is not nearly as difficult as you think it is. The barriers to entry are very low and all the information is well documented online.
That's a point if favor of more variance for software skills. Some had time to develop them for many years on your spare time
Doctors usually start developing their specific skills in Universitiy.

The difficulty is different. The average doctor makes his money using more crystallized intelligence vs the engineer who uses more fluid intelligence.
In all fairness though, the “average” engineer uses crystallized intelligence as well.

If we compare “above average” people in either category, even “above average” doctors use fluid intelligence

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by international001 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:55 am

novemberrain wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:22 pm
international001 wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:13 pm
knightrider wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:48 am
How many teenagers are surgeons, lawyers and CEOs? Software is not nearly as difficult as you think it is. The barriers to entry are very low and all the information is well documented online.
That's a point if favor of more variance for software skills. Some had time to develop them for many years on your spare time
Doctors usually start developing their specific skills in Universitiy.

The difficulty is different. The average doctor makes his money using more crystallized intelligence vs the engineer who uses more fluid intelligence.
In all fairness though, the “average” engineer uses crystallized intelligence as well.

If we compare “above average” people in either category, even “above average” doctors use fluid intelligence
Sure.. you have to use both in any case. And I'm sure any doctor House uses lots of fluid intelligence.
But engineering work is more of a problem solving challenge every day. That's not my experience with what the doctors do. How often they spend days or weeks just trying to figure out a particular set of symptoms?

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by international001 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:59 am

StandingRock wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:13 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:59 pm
Software Engineer salaries vary wildly, for the exact same job, experience and ability one company may pay someone $200k TC and the other may offer only $100k. If you search Indeed.com there are a ton of job postings in Southern California offering salaries as low as $75k but they want 10+ years experience in Software Engineering, a BS in Computer Science and a long list of the hottest tech skills. Not sure if these are fake posts or the people hiring there are delusional.

To get a fair idea I see what the government is paying as that info is public:

https://transparentcalifornia.com/salar ... e+engineer

I do see a few salaries in the Bay Area around $150k/yr or so. I would add around 10% for a mid level private company, so i'm guessing around $165k/yr or so TC in the Bay Area which isn't much because the COL there is beyond insane.

In my experience typical TC (Base + Bonus + misc) for a Software Engineer is around $120k-130k/yr in Southern California, the pay here is not as good as the Bay Area but the COL is cheaper. Also, most companies don't offer stock/equity.
Companies pay what they pay, for the most part. It makes sense for the high-tech companies to pay well for software engineers, because that's their core business typically. It doesn't make sense for a manufacturer, bank, retailer, shipper, steel company, etc. to do the same thing. The only exceptions being people with rare expertise. I knew a guy once that was making $250 an hour because he was an expert with the ABAP programming language and the company could not find anyone else. That is obviously not sustainable though.
Are we trying to time the (job) market?

There may be a locking effect some where? At some point, it is not an efficient market when you pay so much more similar talent in different parts of the country. But it doesn't make sense to pay so much for similar healthcare in US than in other countries. I'm sure that those bubbles will burst on the long term, we just may be all dead

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by StandingRock » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:54 am

international001 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:59 am
StandingRock wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:13 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:59 pm
Software Engineer salaries vary wildly, for the exact same job, experience and ability one company may pay someone $200k TC and the other may offer only $100k. If you search Indeed.com there are a ton of job postings in Southern California offering salaries as low as $75k but they want 10+ years experience in Software Engineering, a BS in Computer Science and a long list of the hottest tech skills. Not sure if these are fake posts or the people hiring there are delusional.

To get a fair idea I see what the government is paying as that info is public:

https://transparentcalifornia.com/salar ... e+engineer

I do see a few salaries in the Bay Area around $150k/yr or so. I would add around 10% for a mid level private company, so i'm guessing around $165k/yr or so TC in the Bay Area which isn't much because the COL there is beyond insane.

In my experience typical TC (Base + Bonus + misc) for a Software Engineer is around $120k-130k/yr in Southern California, the pay here is not as good as the Bay Area but the COL is cheaper. Also, most companies don't offer stock/equity.
Companies pay what they pay, for the most part. It makes sense for the high-tech companies to pay well for software engineers, because that's their core business typically. It doesn't make sense for a manufacturer, bank, retailer, shipper, steel company, etc. to do the same thing. The only exceptions being people with rare expertise. I knew a guy once that was making $250 an hour because he was an expert with the ABAP programming language and the company could not find anyone else. That is obviously not sustainable though.
Are we trying to time the (job) market?

There may be a locking effect some where? At some point, it is not an efficient market when you pay so much more similar talent in different parts of the country. But it doesn't make sense to pay so much for similar healthcare in US than in other countries. I'm sure that those bubbles will burst on the long term, we just may be all dead

The bubble for tech employees burst in the late 90's. Look around any IT department in the US, there are more foreigners than Americans half the time. And by foreigners I mean indians lol.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by international001 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:54 am

I'm not talking about ethnicity of employees, but about tech sector in general in US, and SV in particular

If there bubble burst, please share some data. I think the dot.com recession was just a bump on the road

https://lao.ca.gov/LAOEconTax/Article/Detail/256

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:34 am

international001 wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:59 am
StandingRock wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:13 pm
stocknoob4111 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:59 pm
Software Engineer salaries vary wildly, for the exact same job, experience and ability one company may pay someone $200k TC and the other may offer only $100k. If you search Indeed.com there are a ton of job postings in Southern California offering salaries as low as $75k but they want 10+ years experience in Software Engineering, a BS in Computer Science and a long list of the hottest tech skills. Not sure if these are fake posts or the people hiring there are delusional.

To get a fair idea I see what the government is paying as that info is public:

https://transparentcalifornia.com/salar ... e+engineer

I do see a few salaries in the Bay Area around $150k/yr or so. I would add around 10% for a mid level private company, so i'm guessing around $165k/yr or so TC in the Bay Area which isn't much because the COL there is beyond insane.

In my experience typical TC (Base + Bonus + misc) for a Software Engineer is around $120k-130k/yr in Southern California, the pay here is not as good as the Bay Area but the COL is cheaper. Also, most companies don't offer stock/equity.
Companies pay what they pay, for the most part. It makes sense for the high-tech companies to pay well for software engineers, because that's their core business typically. It doesn't make sense for a manufacturer, bank, retailer, shipper, steel company, etc. to do the same thing. The only exceptions being people with rare expertise. I knew a guy once that was making $250 an hour because he was an expert with the ABAP programming language and the company could not find anyone else. That is obviously not sustainable though.
Are we trying to time the (job) market?

There may be a locking effect some where? At some point, it is not an efficient market when you pay so much more similar talent in different parts of the country. But it doesn't make sense to pay so much for similar healthcare in US than in other countries. I'm sure that those bubbles will burst on the long term, we just may be all dead
The pay differential isn’t that large. These west coast tech companies pay similarly in their satellite offices and some, like Facebook, have an explicit policy where they pay the same.

Case in point, some west coast companies like Square and Open Door opened Engineering offices in Atlanta over the last few years. In SV they are just average payers but in Atlanta they are at the very top of the market and essentially have their pick of talent. Pay in the Atlanta office is adjusted down a bit but nowhere near what the relative COL would suggest. You see the same dynamics in places like Austin or Charlotte. The real impact is that all the incumbent companies will need to ramp up their pay considerably if they want to compete, which is precisely what’s happening. Alternatively, they can make due with inferior talent, which is viable for many business models. But you quickly find that he talent between these two types of companies is NOT similar. They are plainly on different levels.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:47 am

My team is going through 2020 budget allocation right now. It is a sales team, with half the headcount quota-carrying sales reps and the other half sales support and admin staff. Average budget per head is $270k.

...for those who think Bay Area tech salaries are only limited to engineers.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by fwellimort » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:23 am

To the OP.
Yes, some engineers in Silicon Valley/Seattle do earn that much. In fact, new grads at "top tech companies" in Silicon Valley earn far more with some companies such as Lyft offering $240~270k TC out of college.

But these are not the norm. I could claim "any business major can earn $350~450k TC" out of college if he/she works at top hedge funds like Citadel (I do believe Citadel offers almost $300k in signing bonus in certain fields). Not to mention, working at hedge funds like Jane Street, you could have TC of seven figures in just a few years if your team performs very very well.

It is not the norm though. Even in Silicon Valley, it is only the top tech companies that pays this much.
If you work at say Schwab or Bank of America or SoFi or whatever in the Bay Area, your TC will be nowhere as close to this.
If you work in one of those thousands of startups in the Bay Area, again, you will not see this out of college. Probably upper 5 figures (very very close to 6 figures or right at the 6 figure mark) with "maybe" a lot imaginary RSU.

To those claiming it's cause of CoL, just note that people from other professions are also living in the Bay Area. And that the vast majority of software engineers in the Bay Area do not work at a top tech firm. Google offers TC of about $175+k out of college even in states like Wisconsin.
Is the average software engineer out of college in Wisconsin earning that much? Is the CoL of Wisconsin that high?
No. It's just that "a handful" of companies actually pay a lot in the world of software engineering and everyone keeps raving about them for some reason.

Go work at some hedge fund if you really want to get rich. As for why developers aren't getting these roles as much? The interview process is ridiculous and almost like a lottery system after a certain point of "leetcoding". I already wrote a "guide" in getting into these firms out of college in the most "surefire" method. Post ended up getting locked (quite unfair cause other posts such as this aren't: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=281462 ).

These "tech firms" also tend to have: 1. better work hours. 2. more interesting projects. 3. better team support. 4. more vacation days. 5. free food (some tech companies like Twitch has food that rival michellin quality). 6. better promotion process (each level up is a huge jump in pay) 7. more "merit based" for the first 3~4 years (after that, all politics and luck) 8. better retirement/insurance/benefits plan 9. cleaner code 10. more of the "outside your expertise" work done for you so you can focus on your job 11. more up to date technology/"best practices" so you are even more employable in the market

Anyways, levels.fyi is a website that gives you the general idea of the pay at these tech firms. Google pays about $181k + signing/starting bonus (up to $15k) out of college. Amazon about $155k. That said, those numbers can vary wildly because Google is known to "lowball" and one could have counter offers and all (my peer in Amazon started out with $210k while apparently one of my colleagues had TC of 140k at Google so you get the idea).

And good tech recruiters in Bay Area probably get paid more anyways. Just know that these salaries are "not the norm" even in Silicon Valley. The vast majority of East Bay Software Engineering roles pay around $110~150k. Companies outside "top tech" don't give stocks/etc and their promotion structure is nowhere as crazy in compensation.

Bay area is a place in which a person out of college can earn $240k while a guy who worked for 12 years could be earning $140k. It's just.. a place with no real market. Nothing to do with the CoL. Just.. has to do with blind luck on passing the "interview process" (studying up trivial puzzle coding problems involving minheap/dynamic programming/etc).

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:02 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:23 am
To the OP.
Yes, some engineers in Silicon Valley/Seattle do earn that much. In fact, new grads at "top tech companies" in Silicon Valley earn far more with some companies such as Lyft offering $240~270k TC out of college.

But these are not the norm. I could claim "any business major can earn $350~450k TC" out of college if he/she works at top hedge funds like Citadel (I do believe Citadel offers almost $300k in signing bonus in certain fields). Not to mention, working at hedge funds like Jane Street, you could have TC of seven figures in just a few years if your team performs very very well.

It is not the norm though. Even in Silicon Valley, it is only the top tech companies that pays this much.
If you work at say Schwab or Bank of America or SoFi or whatever in the Bay Area, your TC will be nowhere as close to this.
If you work in one of those thousands of startups in the Bay Area, again, you will not see this out of college. Probably upper 5 figures (very very close to 6 figures or right at the 6 figure mark) with "maybe" a lot imaginary RSU.

To those claiming it's cause of CoL, just note that people from other professions are also living in the Bay Area. And that the vast majority of software engineers in the Bay Area do not work at a top tech firm. Google offers TC of about $175+k out of college even in states like Wisconsin.
Is the average software engineer out of college in Wisconsin earning that much? Is the CoL of Wisconsin that high?
No. It's just that "a handful" of companies actually pay a lot in the world of software engineering and everyone keeps raving about them for some reason.

Go work at some hedge fund if you really want to get rich. As for why developers aren't getting these roles as much? The interview process is ridiculous and almost like a lottery system after a certain point of "leetcoding". I already wrote a "guide" in getting into these firms out of college in the most "surefire" method. Post ended up getting locked (quite unfair cause other posts such as this aren't: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=281462 ).

These "tech firms" also tend to have: 1. better work hours. 2. more interesting projects. 3. better team support. 4. more vacation days. 5. free food (some tech companies like Twitch has food that rival michellin quality). 6. better promotion process (each level up is a huge jump in pay) 7. more "merit based" for the first 3~4 years (after that, all politics and luck) 8. better retirement/insurance/benefits plan 9. cleaner code 10. more of the "outside your expertise" work done for you so you can focus on your job 11. more up to date technology/"best practices" so you are even more employable in the market

Anyways, levels.fyi is a website that gives you the general idea of the pay at these tech firms. Google pays about $181k + signing/starting bonus (up to $15k) out of college. Amazon about $155k. That said, those numbers can vary wildly because Google is known to "lowball" and one could have counter offers and all (my peer in Amazon started out with $210k while apparently one of my colleagues had TC of 140k at Google so you get the idea).

And good tech recruiters in Bay Area probably get paid more anyways. Just know that these salaries are "not the norm" even in Silicon Valley. The vast majority of East Bay Software Engineering roles pay around $110~150k. Companies outside "top tech" don't give stocks/etc and their promotion structure is nowhere as crazy in compensation.

Bay area is a place in which a person out of college can earn $240k while a guy who worked for 12 years could be earning $140k. It's just.. a place with no real market. Nothing to do with the CoL. Just.. has to do with blind luck on passing the "interview process" (studying up trivial puzzle coding problems involving minheap/dynamic programming/etc).
It’s definitely not blind luck and while there are dysfunctions, it IS a real market and it works moderately efficiently. Yeah, a lot of those lower paid engineers could be successful working at Google if they wanted and might be underpaid relative to their skills, but more often they wouldn’t. There are a lot of problems with the current style of tech interview, but it’s exponentially better than it was even 15 years ago and improving all the time.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:02 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:23 am
Just know that these salaries are "not the norm" even in Silicon Valley. The vast majority of East Bay Software Engineering roles pay around $110~150k.
This is straight up false. The largest software company in the East Bay is Workday in Pleasanton and their publicly available median comp is $188k. As I posted here viewtopic.php?t=290832

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by fwellimort » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:14 pm

The vast majority of *junior* (0~3 YOE) is around 110~150k TC.

Once you add out senior engineers, associate directors, directors, techleads, architects, etc., then 188k overall makes more sense (quite surprised it is this low though).

It's really hard to say anything honestly as the salaries in Bay Area for software dev can vary quite a bit even with similar yoe.

Once you add contractors in the Bay Area, you realize how off the overall report can be. I recently got offered an interview at Uber as contractor for 78k. Told the recruiter to honestly piss off but I did learn from this that not everyone earns $$$ as a developer in the East Bay.

There's apparently a lot of contractors in the Bay area. I believe in most tech firms, contractors are over half the workforce (my team has only one but who knows). And contractors do NOT get benefits nor do they get stocks. Full time contractors are people too. That's all I will say.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:26 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:14 pm
The vast majority of *junior* (0~3 YOE) is around 110~150k TC.

Once you add out senior engineers, associate directors, directors, techleads, architects, etc., then 188k overall makes more sense (quite surprised it is this low though).

It's really hard to say anything honestly as the salaries in Bay Area for software dev can vary quite a bit even with similar yoe.

Once you add contractors in the Bay Area, you realize how off the overall report can be. I recently got offered an interview at Uber as contractor for 78k. Told the recruiter to honestly piss off but I did learn from this that not everyone earns $$$ as a developer in the East Bay.

There's apparently a lot of contractors in the Bay area. I believe in most tech firms, contractors are over half the workforce (my team has only one but who knows). And contractors do NOT get benefits nor do they get stocks. Full time contractors are people too. That's all I will say.
The 188k number includes all employees, not just engineers. If we assume engineers are in the top half of staff then 188k is indeed going to the jr devs.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by fwellimort » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:45 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:26 pm
The 188k number includes all employees, not just engineers. If we assume engineers are in the top half of staff then 188k is indeed going to the jr devs.
That cannot be right because it is contradictory to market pay in the area.
If junior devs are earning 188k, then everyone would be applying to Workday with 0~3 YOE.

Levels.fyi also reveals: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Workday ... 20Engineer

Out of college, if you work in Workday Pleasanton, you get paid TC of about $126k.
Then after 2 years (promotion), $137.5k.
Then after another 1 years (promotion), $165k.
Then as a senior developer after 2~3 years, $220k.

Not everyone is a Senior Principal SWE making 500k+~7 figure salaries.

And Workday is a tech company that also pays stocks on top. If you didn't work for a company like Workday and instead say, Bank of America or Chase, even in East Bay, the numbers are quite low.

Heck, if Workday actually paid 188k TC out of college, why would people apply to Google or Facebook.
Like I said, only a "very few" tech companies in East Bay pay an "outrageous" amount despite CoL. The rest of the general developers in median earn about 110~150k. i know cause I checked the salaries for 3~5 YOE at a big bank like Chase and those paid only ~135k a year.
Not every company gives stocks.

Just cause my peers and I earn much higher does not mean "every developer earns <this much>". Google/Facebook/Netflix/Uber/Lyft is NOT the norm. Heck, Schwab/Fidelity/Vanguard pays like 80k in NYC as a developer (and not much different in pay even in East Bay).
There's lots of engineers outside "tech firms" too. Some in medical fields. Some in finance. Some in utilities. Some in <insert random sector>.

That said, if you live and breathe at TeamBlind, then yes, everyone in East Bay out of college earns $200k TC and everyone with 5 YOE earns 400k TC. Clearly not a biased sampe of {FAANGMULA (or whatever stupid acronym) + hedge funds} developers or is it?

The pay report most likely implies Workday hires mostly experienced (senior or above) developers. This is not uncommon practice. Netflix for instance only hires senior developers. Either that or the stock price went up high (since you are given a set number of stocks and if those stock prices go up when they get vested, you suddenly had been paid a lot more).
But I can assure you not all 0~3 YOE developers are earning 188k. Not even in the Bay area.

Also, do understand tech companies pay in stocks. If the stocks go up like Amazon when it gets vested, what your "intial" signed TC of 140k could end up being $200k (and of course, the other way holds true too)

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by yosef » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:17 pm

edge wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:53 am
Kafka is not groundbreaking. It’s just convenient and free.
I don't know what this means; in what way is it not groundbreaking? Please don't mention MQ.

edge wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:08 pm
There just isn’t anything particularly groundbreaking at linked in or Facebook etc etc.

Most of Silicon Valley these days is business model innovation not tech innovation.

Imo the interviewing and competitiveness has more to do with screening out the bottom 80% of the software development workforce who are marginal than it is about finding brilliant ground breaking research/innovator type guys.
You can certainly argue that the products at LinkedIn, Facebook, etc are not groundbreaking in what they do. But as has been mentioned, the difficultly in producing them, and consequently the compensation for doing so, is based on the immense scale at which they must operate.

I've really found the opinions from those outside tech in this thread entertaining, even if also insulting.

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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by fwellimort » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:39 pm

Also, IT is not software engineering.

Please stop confusing the two.
This is like saying a mechanical engineer at BMW who creates cars (including the engines, etc.) has the exact same skill as your local car mechanic.
It's just a different profession.
Your local smartphone repair shop won't have the same level of knowledge as an electrical engineer at Apple creating the next iPhone chip.
IT:
"graduates can find work in a number of occupations, including information security, network architecture, database administration, systems administration and computer support."
So IT deals more with overall networking and computer repair/support.

Software engineer on the other hand deals with writing code, attending meetings, creating presentations. A life of a software engineer is actually very close to a typical business analyst (except instead of looking at excel, you look at code/jira/stackoverflow/e-mail).

Your local family practitioner is not a neurosurgeon.
Sure as a software developer myself in the Bay area, I have the skills to work in IT (I used to "repair" computers/laptops when I was in middle school. It's quite easy especially with resources now available from people like: Louis Rossmann).
But I don't need to know nor do I spend any of my time in the IT sector. In fact, even for the most trivial errors, I just call the Help Desk. Why? Cause it's not my field.

_
Also, there's a good reason why developers in these tech firms get paid so much. The interview process is very very rigorous. The interview questions themselves are quite simple. The problem is: you don't know which interview question will show up ahead of time. Out of 1,300 interview problems (including system design), you will be given only 5 (variants) questions. And it's expected you know each of those 5 inside out. From memory space, the recursive/iterative, data distribution, edge cases etc.
Sure, "just memorize 1,300 problems" sounds easy. Just as easy as "study for the SAT and get at least a 2360/2400 on your SAT" but we all know as "easy" as it sounds, reaching that "level" is not easy. And, even harder is being "consistent" at it.You could look like a genius on 5 problems but a complete idiot on another 5. All this while you have a full time job and a family.
Some developers at Google got in after 10 years of constant interviewing ("theTechLead"). Some developers "code" interview problems 4 hours a day for almost a year (if not years) to break into these firms.

What's worse is that as you get more experienced, companies expect you to "do more" than juniors. And these companies want candidates who dealt with "big data" (petabytes of data). Unfortunately, there just aren't companies that deals with such large data real time. And so what ends up happening is, the only candidates that fit your block are candidates from peer companies (who also need more candidates of their own): sure many developers if given the opportunity can do it but companies just don't want to take such risks.
An average developer in your local hospital just isn't going to have the experience to know how to deal with "large data". You can claim one can "self study" or make "self projects" but the first question I would then ask is, where would get petabytes of relevant data at home? And why would recruiters trust your "self project" about big data during your weekends? Even if "big data" is a buzz word and most of it can be learnt in a day, recruiters just don't see that as "experience".

I just want to say, it's not "free money". There's a lot of hard work behind the process (for some people).

And to those that say "you don't need to study 1,300 problems", "[insert company] is looking for people with creativity, not robot memorizers". To the former, I say, you are right. Most of my peers studied around ~285 problems before breaking in as a new grad. As for the latter, I say, how does one grade someone else's creativity? In these large firms, interviews have to be standardized (so that they don't get sued). How do you create a "creative" interview that is fair and can't be simply done by routine studying? Also, isn't studying/memorizing also a sign of that person's work ethic? Is hard work suddenly out the window when it comes to "creativity"? What's the point of schooling if throughout your entire educational career, you learnt to "study for tests" for the 'test day'?

That's all I wanted to add. I understand there are many Bogleheaders that are rather unfamiliar with the tech world and associate software engineers as "overpaid" IT. It's just a different profession. Completely different work.
Software engineers act more like business analysts while IT workers act more like help desk support.
(horrible comparison but you get the idea. Just different occupation)

KyleAAA
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:15 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:45 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:26 pm
The 188k number includes all employees, not just engineers. If we assume engineers are in the top half of staff then 188k is indeed going to the jr devs.
That cannot be right because it is contradictory to market pay in the area.
If junior devs are earning 188k, then everyone would be applying to Workday with 0~3 YOE.

Levels.fyi also reveals: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Workday ... 20Engineer

Out of college, if you work in Workday Pleasanton, you get paid TC of about $126k.
Then after 2 years (promotion), $137.5k.
Then after another 1 years (promotion), $165k.
Then as a senior developer after 2~3 years, $220k.

Not everyone is a Senior Principal SWE making 500k+~7 figure salaries.

And Workday is a tech company that also pays stocks on top. If you didn't work for a company like Workday and instead say, Bank of America or Chase, even in East Bay, the numbers are quite low.

Heck, if Workday actually paid 188k TC out of college, why would people apply to Google or Facebook.
Like I said, only a "very few" tech companies in East Bay pay an "outrageous" amount despite CoL. The rest of the general developers in median earn about 110~150k. i know cause I checked the salaries for 3~5 YOE at a big bank like Chase and those paid only ~135k a year.
Not every company gives stocks.

Just cause my peers and I earn much higher does not mean "every developer earns <this much>". Google/Facebook/Netflix/Uber/Lyft is NOT the norm. Heck, Schwab/Fidelity/Vanguard pays like 80k in NYC as a developer (and not much different in pay even in East Bay).
There's lots of engineers outside "tech firms" too. Some in medical fields. Some in finance. Some in utilities. Some in <insert random sector>.

That said, if you live and breathe at TeamBlind, then yes, everyone in East Bay out of college earns $200k TC and everyone with 5 YOE earns 400k TC. Clearly not a biased sampe of {FAANGMULA (or whatever stupid acronym) + hedge funds} developers or is it?

The pay report most likely implies Workday hires mostly experienced (senior or above) developers. This is not uncommon practice. Netflix for instance only hires senior developers. Either that or the stock price went up high (since you are given a set number of stocks and if those stock prices go up when they get vested, you suddenly had been paid a lot more).
But I can assure you not all 0~3 YOE developers are earning 188k. Not even in the Bay area.

Also, do understand tech companies pay in stocks. If the stocks go up like Amazon when it gets vested, what your "intial" signed TC of 140k could end up being $200k (and of course, the other way holds true too)
Several of us are hiring managers and engineering directors at these companies and have been in the industry for a decade or longer. You are making confident statements that just aren’t true. Also, nobody anywhere has ever said all developers in the Bay Area with 0-3 yoe are earning $188k, so I’m not sure where you got that from. There are plenty of developers in he Bay Area making less than $100k. Those aren’t who we are talking about.

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:40 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:45 pm

Levels.fyi also reveals: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Workday ... 20Engineer

Out of college, if you work in Workday Pleasanton, you get paid TC of about $126k.
Then after 2 years (promotion), $137.5k.
Then after another 1 years (promotion), $165k.
Then as a senior developer after 2~3 years, $220k.
I would consider a dev with 3 yrs of experience as junior. And levels.fyi confirms that those devs are earning over $200k.
The pay report most likely implies Workday hires mostly experienced (senior or above) developers. This is not uncommon practice. Netflix for instance only hires senior developers. Either that or the stock price went up high (since you are given a set number of stocks and if those stock prices go up when they get vested, you suddenly had been paid a lot more).
But I can assure you not all 0~3 YOE developers are earning 188k. Not even in the Bay area.
The 188k includes stock price at grant, not vest. So it has nothing to do with appreciation. And Workday clearly hires straight out of university https://www.workday.com/en-us/company/c ... iting.html

My point here is not that every software developer is making that much money in the Bay Area. My point is that every software developer at a software company is indeed making that much. Workday is a completely ordinary software company (what could be more unsexy than HR software?) that pays that much. And it’s not even close to the highest paying non-FAANG. That would be Splunk which pays its median employee (again, out of all employees) $261k. And then Coupa at $254k, and Palo Alto Networks at 224k. None of these are sexy names but they all pay the Bay Area standard.

edge
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by edge » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:01 pm

What do you think it does that is groundbreaking?

There were extremely high end and costly software packages to do what it does. But high costs kept adoption low.

Yes, writing code that can scale is a challenge. But really that’s something that market infrastructure type developers had to deal with for a long time. And at places like Facebook and LinkedIn they can optimize more easily because transactional integrity is a secondary factor. Imo LinkedIn is especially bad with how they have architected their solution. They optimized and architected their platform to the point where search, a key feature of any social graph, barely works.
yosef wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:17 pm
edge wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:53 am
Kafka is not groundbreaking. It’s just convenient and free.
I don't know what this means; in what way is it not groundbreaking? Please don't mention MQ.

edge wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:08 pm
There just isn’t anything particularly groundbreaking at linked in or Facebook etc etc.

Most of Silicon Valley these days is business model innovation not tech innovation.

Imo the interviewing and competitiveness has more to do with screening out the bottom 80% of the software development workforce who are marginal than it is about finding brilliant ground breaking research/innovator type guys.
You can certainly argue that the products at LinkedIn, Facebook, etc are not groundbreaking in what they do. But as has been mentioned, the difficultly in producing them, and consequently the compensation for doing so, is based on the immense scale at which they must operate.

I've really found the opinions from those outside tech in this thread entertaining, even if also insulting.

flyingcows
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by flyingcows » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:05 pm

Just wanted to add that pre-sales and post-sales technical consultants/customer engineers/solution architects also tend to be well compensated. I was a software developer for most of my career and transitioned into a hands on (building stuff) consultant. Something to consider for those who want to work for Bay Area SaaS companies without needing to live there, assuming your ok with some travel.

software
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by software » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:09 pm

As someone who works for Amazon (similar in compensation to Microsoft) I can confirm that the numbers are accurate. At 6 years in I make about 350k in total comp, and I also do not live in a VHCOL area.

It is the norm for someone 3 years in to be making 180k or more in total comp.

Nathan Drake
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by Nathan Drake » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 pm

Where does Amazon hire SE other than HCOL areas?

software
Posts: 177
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by software » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:35 pm

Amazon has corporate offices all over the country, most of these offices employing SDEs in varying numbers. I work for one of these remote offices.

Some remote offices are in HCOL areas but many others are not.

https://amazon.jobs/en/locations/?&cont ... rica&cache

ARoseByAnyOtherName
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Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by ARoseByAnyOtherName » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:55 pm

fwellimort wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:39 pm
Also, there's a good reason why developers in these tech firms get paid so much. The interview process is very very rigorous.
The reason developers in these tech firms get paid so much has absolutely nothing to do with the interview process.

Nathan Drake
Posts: 459
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Re: IT compensation comparison

Post by Nathan Drake » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:35 pm

software wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:35 pm
Amazon has corporate offices all over the country, most of these offices employing SDEs in varying numbers. I work for one of these remote offices.

Some remote offices are in HCOL areas but many others are not.

https://amazon.jobs/en/locations/?&cont ... rica&cache
I’m blown away that a LCOL 6 year SDE is clearing 350k

Really did myself a disservice going into a hard science engineering field post-2000 tech bubble

Should have gambled it on software instead

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