Refinance Mega Thread

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pb1996
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:46 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by pb1996 »

jharkin wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:47 pm I ended up locking with LenderFi today.

Superconforming (600ish on an 800 value)
3.125
Zero cost (1500 lender credit covering all costs)
Waived appraisal
Waived escrow :D

I read the fine print on the rate guarantee. They offer a no cost refi for life if *their* rate drops more than 0.25. The catch is:
1 you have to hold the loan at least 6 months before you can take advantage of this offer
2 if you hold the loan less than 6 months they claw back the credit


Overall I decided it’s worth it, as their rate is at least a quarter point better than anyone else offered me, and if rates drop enough to make a refi worthwhile in less than 6 months eating the 1500 credit probably won’t be that big a deal.
Is the less than 6 month claw back of lender credits a common thing in no cost refis? I noticed that form on the lenderfi application but on my loandepot application I don't see anything that says there might be an early closure penalty like that. Am I missing something?
frankandbeans
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:55 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by frankandbeans »

pb1996 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:41 pm
jharkin wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:47 pm I ended up locking with LenderFi today.

Superconforming (600ish on an 800 value)
3.125
Zero cost (1500 lender credit covering all costs)
Waived appraisal
Waived escrow :D

I read the fine print on the rate guarantee. They offer a no cost refi for life if *their* rate drops more than 0.25. The catch is:
1 you have to hold the loan at least 6 months before you can take advantage of this offer
2 if you hold the loan less than 6 months they claw back the credit


Overall I decided it’s worth it, as their rate is at least a quarter point better than anyone else offered me, and if rates drop enough to make a refi worthwhile in less than 6 months eating the 1500 credit probably won’t be that big a deal.
Is the less than 6 month claw back of lender credits a common thing in no cost refis? I noticed that form on the lenderfi application but on my loandepot application I don't see anything that says there might be an early closure penalty like that. Am I missing something?
LenderFi is the only place I'm aware of that includes it in their papers. It's not clear to me whether it's enforceable or how exactly they would enforce it. Any Bogleheads want to volunteer to find out? :D
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

frankandbeans wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:46 pm LenderFi is the only place I'm aware of that includes it in their papers. It's not clear to me whether it's enforceable or how exactly they would enforce it. Any Bogleheads want to volunteer to find out? :D
In all likelihood (and remember, I do NOT have any personal experience here), they would include it in the fees listed with a payoff quote during those 6 months. Many lenders charge fees (usually not onerous though - my last one charged $20 for filing the satisfaction of mortgage) for whatever reason and include such in the payoff quote. I know another person mentioned she was very upset at her old lender for adding in hundreds of fees to pad their pockets. So I wouldn't be surprised if LenderFi would use such quotes to "enforce" the clawback.
nickpete123
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:19 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nickpete123 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:52 pm
frankandbeans wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:46 pm LenderFi is the only place I'm aware of that includes it in their papers. It's not clear to me whether it's enforceable or how exactly they would enforce it. Any Bogleheads want to volunteer to find out? :D
In all likelihood (and remember, I do NOT have any personal experience here), they would include it in the fees listed with a payoff quote during those 6 months. Many lenders charge fees (usually not onerous though - my last one charged $20 for filing the satisfaction of mortgage) for whatever reason and include such in the payoff quote. I know another person mentioned she was very upset at her old lender for adding in hundreds of fees to pad their pockets. So I wouldn't be surprised if LenderFi would use such quotes to "enforce" the clawback.

I’ve been tempted to find out myself as my 6 month period ends in 2 months. I did notice that on the final disclosure statement on the first page it says “does the loan have a prepayment penalty? NO”. So I’m wondering if that would hold more weight than the “agree to not have the INTENT to refinance within 180 days.” I didn’t have the intent 4 months ago but with rates so low and wanting to change to a 15 year makes me want to!
Brain
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Brain »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:29 pm
psmoove wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 pm After 4 weeks, I am finally closing with Better on Friday. I was not happy with the title company they used (Title365) as there were numerous delays during the process. I had initially wanted to use my own title company but Better convinced me not to because they said it would delay the process. Well, it eventually got delayed anyway. I complained and they issued me another $250 in lender credits as a recourse.
I was planning on using my own title company with Better, because I thought I needed to do that to get a reissue rate. For those that don't know, if you have your present title insurance policy, you can ask for the reissue rate. I did this with Better and they changed my premium to the lower reissue rate. So I didn't need to use my own title company. It's about a 40% savings off of the title insurance premium. It's saved about $500 for me. The exact savings may depend on each state. Not sure about that. And there is a limit as to how old the present title policy is at the time of refinancing to qualify for the reissue rate. I think it's no more than 10 years, and also might be different by state. Not sure about that either. I don't think it's right but lenders and title companies never ask you upfront about this. But they will give you the lower rate if you ask and send them your present policy.
Wow, this is the first I've heard of this. It makes total sense.

I'm weary of the title insurance racket. On one of my purchases, I was told that lender's title insurance was $50 and purchaser's title insurance was $1,177. I asked if I could waive title insurance for myself and was told that if I did, the lender's title insurance charge would change to $762. Must be that new math.

Better has the title charge listed as $995 for their affiliate. I just contacted my old title company from my last refi and they told me they do reissue and give a discount for repeat customers. They're quoting me $745. A whole $150 savings vs. Better's choice. And this is after charging me $1,257 three years ago.

Title is, by far, the largest cost in this refi. Somebody needs to do to the title insurance industry what Better is doing to the mortgage industry!
seawolf21
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 pm
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:08 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:29 pm
psmoove wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 pm After 4 weeks, I am finally closing with Better on Friday. I was not happy with the title company they used (Title365) as there were numerous delays during the process. I had initially wanted to use my own title company but Better convinced me not to because they said it would delay the process. Well, it eventually got delayed anyway. I complained and they issued me another $250 in lender credits as a recourse.
I was planning on using my own title company with Better, because I thought I needed to do that to get a reissue rate. For those that don't know, if you have your present title insurance policy, you can ask for the reissue rate. I did this with Better and they changed my premium to the lower reissue rate. So I didn't need to use my own title company. It's about a 40% savings off of the title insurance premium. It's saved about $500 for me. The exact savings may depend on each state. Not sure about that. And there is a limit as to how old the present title policy is at the time of refinancing to qualify for the reissue rate. I think it's no more than 10 years, and also might be different by state. Not sure about that either. I don't think it's right but lenders and title companies never ask you upfront about this. But they will give you the lower rate if you ask and send them your present policy.
How does one go about doing this? Is the title insurance policy part of the stack of papers you get from a mortgage? You just scanned it and sent to Better?
For my prior closing it was sent to me as a PDF and I just emailed that file over. I got the title commitment/binder prior to closing. It wasn't part of all of the closing documents.
I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
pb1996 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:41 pm
jharkin wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:47 pm I ended up locking with LenderFi today.

Superconforming (600ish on an 800 value)
3.125
Zero cost (1500 lender credit covering all costs)
Waived appraisal
Waived escrow :D

I read the fine print on the rate guarantee. They offer a no cost refi for life if *their* rate drops more than 0.25. The catch is:
1 you have to hold the loan at least 6 months before you can take advantage of this offer
2 if you hold the loan less than 6 months they claw back the credit


Overall I decided it’s worth it, as their rate is at least a quarter point better than anyone else offered me, and if rates drop enough to make a refi worthwhile in less than 6 months eating the 1500 credit probably won’t be that big a deal.
Is the less than 6 month claw back of lender credits a common thing in no cost refis? I noticed that form on the lenderfi application but on my loandepot application I don't see anything that says there might be an early closure penalty like that. Am I missing something?
It's not common to borrower but it is common between to have a 180-day clawback on commission in brokerage agreement between mortgage broker (lenderfi) and the actual lender (eg UWM/PennyMac etc).
Brain wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:55 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:29 pm
psmoove wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 pm After 4 weeks, I am finally closing with Better on Friday. I was not happy with the title company they used (Title365) as there were numerous delays during the process. I had initially wanted to use my own title company but Better convinced me not to because they said it would delay the process. Well, it eventually got delayed anyway. I complained and they issued me another $250 in lender credits as a recourse.
I was planning on using my own title company with Better, because I thought I needed to do that to get a reissue rate. For those that don't know, if you have your present title insurance policy, you can ask for the reissue rate. I did this with Better and they changed my premium to the lower reissue rate. So I didn't need to use my own title company. It's about a 40% savings off of the title insurance premium. It's saved about $500 for me. The exact savings may depend on each state. Not sure about that. And there is a limit as to how old the present title policy is at the time of refinancing to qualify for the reissue rate. I think it's no more than 10 years, and also might be different by state. Not sure about that either. I don't think it's right but lenders and title companies never ask you upfront about this. But they will give you the lower rate if you ask and send them your present policy.
Wow, this is the first I've heard of this. It makes total sense.

I'm weary of the title insurance racket. On one of my purchases, I was told that lender's title insurance was $50 and purchaser's title insurance was $1,177. I asked if I could waive title insurance for myself and was told that if I did, the lender's title insurance charge would change to $762. Must be that new math.

Better has the title charge listed as $995 for their affiliate. I just contacted my old title company from my last refi and they told me they do reissue and give a discount for repeat customers. They're quoting me $745. A whole $150 savings vs. Better's choice. And this is after charging me $1,257 three years ago.

Title is, by far, the largest cost in this refi. Somebody needs to do to the title insurance industry what Better is doing to the mortgage industry!
Yes there needs to be more competition in the actual number of title insurers in the market which is not many.
frankandbeans
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:55 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by frankandbeans »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:52 pm
frankandbeans wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:46 pm LenderFi is the only place I'm aware of that includes it in their papers. It's not clear to me whether it's enforceable or how exactly they would enforce it. Any Bogleheads want to volunteer to find out? :D
In all likelihood (and remember, I do NOT have any personal experience here), they would include it in the fees listed with a payoff quote during those 6 months. Many lenders charge fees (usually not onerous though - my last one charged $20 for filing the satisfaction of mortgage) for whatever reason and include such in the payoff quote. I know another person mentioned she was very upset at her old lender for adding in hundreds of fees to pad their pockets. So I wouldn't be surprised if LenderFi would use such quotes to "enforce" the clawback.
Until about a month ago, they didn't do any servicing but still had this provision in the closing papers. Perhaps they could do this now if they're still servicing the loan at that point.
Jags4186
Posts: 5211
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

Just to update you all on my Better refinance. I’ve hit my first head scratcher.

Yesterday my estimated closing costs and cash to close were the same amount, $2600. Now today, the loan estimate has changed and the closing costs are still $2600 but the cash to close is now $3600. I was fine with $2600 because I’d be getting $2500 back from AMEX. I’m not fine with $3600. Nothing in A-J has changed. What seems to have changed is the “estimated total payoffs and payments” seems to have increased $1000. Fortunately I downloaded the old estimate... The payoff amount should actually drop, not increase, because I’ll be making a July mortgage payment

Will update you.
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 3732
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 am Just to update you all on my Better refinance. I’ve hit my first head scratcher.

Yesterday my estimated closing costs and cash to close were the same amount, $2600. Now today, the loan estimate has changed and the closing costs are still $2600 but the cash to close is now $3600. I was fine with $2600 because I’d be getting $2500 back from AMEX. I’m not fine with $3600. Nothing in A-J has changed. What seems to have changed is the “estimated total payoffs and payments” seems to have increased $1000. Fortunately I downloaded the old estimate... The payoff amount should actually drop, not increase, because I’ll be making a July mortgage payment

Will update you.
Did the prepaids increase?
Jags4186
Posts: 5211
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

anon_investor wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:04 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 am Just to update you all on my Better refinance. I’ve hit my first head scratcher.

Yesterday my estimated closing costs and cash to close were the same amount, $2600. Now today, the loan estimate has changed and the closing costs are still $2600 but the cash to close is now $3600. I was fine with $2600 because I’d be getting $2500 back from AMEX. I’m not fine with $3600. Nothing in A-J has changed. What seems to have changed is the “estimated total payoffs and payments” seems to have increased $1000. Fortunately I downloaded the old estimate... The payoff amount should actually drop, not increase, because I’ll be making a July mortgage payment

Will update you.
Did the prepaids increase?
The only number that changed was on page 2 “Calculating Cash to Close”. There are four numbers:

1) Loan amount
2) Total Closing Costs (J)
3) Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments
4) Estimated Cash to Close

Yesterday 1) and 3) were the same number.
Today 3) is $1000 higher than 1) and therefore 4) is $1000 higher than yesterday.

Nothing changed in A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, or J.
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anon_investor
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:16 am
anon_investor wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:04 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 am Just to update you all on my Better refinance. I’ve hit my first head scratcher.

Yesterday my estimated closing costs and cash to close were the same amount, $2600. Now today, the loan estimate has changed and the closing costs are still $2600 but the cash to close is now $3600. I was fine with $2600 because I’d be getting $2500 back from AMEX. I’m not fine with $3600. Nothing in A-J has changed. What seems to have changed is the “estimated total payoffs and payments” seems to have increased $1000. Fortunately I downloaded the old estimate... The payoff amount should actually drop, not increase, because I’ll be making a July mortgage payment

Will update you.
Did the prepaids increase?
The only number that changed was on page 2 “Calculating Cash to Close”. There are four numbers:

1) Loan amount
2) Total Closing Costs (J)
3) Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments
4) Estimated Cash to Close

Yesterday 1) and 3) were the same number.
Today 3) is $1000 higher than 1) and therefore 4) is $1000 higher than yesterday.

Nothing changed in A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, or J.
Maybe the loan amount isn't enough to payoff the existing mortgage based on their estimate of accrued interest by closing?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 am Nothing in A-J has changed. What seems to have changed is the “estimated total payoffs and payments” seems to have increased $1000.
Your prior lender either charges some fees that have now been identified, your monthly payment includes a serious amount of interest and thus the lack of a July payment on the books includes much more interest since the preliminary payoff quote, or someone goofed and your old lender will send you an overpayment refund.

You can still switch which point option you are going with to reduce Section A by $1k if you wish. I’d also ask to see a copy of the payoff statement. One was in my closing packet, so I didn’t need to ask for it, but YMMV.
WhyRWeHere
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Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:40 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 pm
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:08 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:29 pm

I was planning on using my own title company with Better, because I thought I needed to do that to get a reissue rate. For those that don't know, if you have your present title insurance policy, you can ask for the reissue rate. I did this with Better and they changed my premium to the lower reissue rate. So I didn't need to use my own title company. It's about a 40% savings off of the title insurance premium. It's saved about $500 for me. The exact savings may depend on each state. Not sure about that. And there is a limit as to how old the present title policy is at the time of refinancing to qualify for the reissue rate. I think it's no more than 10 years, and also might be different by state. Not sure about that either. I don't think it's right but lenders and title companies never ask you upfront about this. But they will give you the lower rate if you ask and send them your present policy.
How does one go about doing this? Is the title insurance policy part of the stack of papers you get from a mortgage? You just scanned it and sent to Better?
For my prior closing it was sent to me as a PDF and I just emailed that file over. I got the title commitment/binder prior to closing. It wasn't part of all of the closing documents.
I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
seawolf21
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 pm
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:08 pm

How does one go about doing this? Is the title insurance policy part of the stack of papers you get from a mortgage? You just scanned it and sent to Better?
For my prior closing it was sent to me as a PDF and I just emailed that file over. I got the title commitment/binder prior to closing. It wasn't part of all of the closing documents.
I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
Yes I read mortgage professor and it suggest home owner not having the lender policy is not uncommon. The settlement agent might or might not have provide a copy of the lender policy to home owner but they certainly would had provided a copy to the lender.
Last edited by seawolf21 on Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fire_Buckeye
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Fire_Buckeye »

I'll add another LenderFI data point.
We recently locked in a 30-year fixed conventional refi at 3.125% for a loan amount of ~220k and LTV of ~73%. Total out of pocket fees will be ~$125 (lender credit covers the rest and our appraisal was waived).

The loan officer we spoke to confirmed that their offered rates are indeed lower if you call (we were seeing 3.375% with a lender credit of $1012 online, via phone the rate we received was 3.125 with a lender credit of $1012). We refinanced with them in the fall and had a pleasant experience, so hopefully this time around will be similar.

Cheers
WhyRWeHere
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Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:40 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:03 am
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 pm

For my prior closing it was sent to me as a PDF and I just emailed that file over. I got the title commitment/binder prior to closing. It wasn't part of all of the closing documents.
I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
Yes I read mortgage professor and it suggest home owner not having the lender policy is not uncommon. The settlement agent might or might not have provide a copy of the lender policy to home owner but they certainly would had provided a copy to the lender.
That article refers to the owner's policy (see underlined language):

A reissue is an extension of a current policy at a reduced premium, but to qualify borrowers must document that they have the policy that will be extended. The best way to do that is simply to produce the policy, but in many cases home buyers didn’t get a copy of the policy when they closed, and those that did may have lost it. If they don’t have a copy of their policy but they did retain the HUD1 closing document, the title policy will be identified there. Failing that, they may recall the closing agent who sold them the policy, or the lender, both of whom should have a copy.

There is an obvious moral here for home buyers: to avoid uncertainty and hassle, demand a copy of your title policy at closing, and place it in a secure place.


I sent over my owner policy and got the reissue rate. (Some buyers may also be able to get a reissue based off a seller's existing owner's policy.) FYI I'm not trying to argue with you. I just want people to be able to take advantage of the reissue rate if they can. According to this article, the title agent keeps 70-85% of the premium. https://www.federaltitle.com/title-insu ... al%2C%20et. Therefore, there is zero incentive for the title agent to let you know about the reissue rate. It should be mandatory that you automatically get the reissue rate, especially when most people don't know about it.
ChiKid24
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

Fire_Buckeye wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:06 am I'll add another LenderFI data point.
We recently locked in a 30-year fixed conventional refi at 3.125% for a loan amount of ~220k and LTV of ~73%. Total out of pocket fees will be ~$125 (lender credit covers the rest and our appraisal was waived).

The loan officer we spoke to confirmed that their offered rates are indeed lower if you call (we were seeing 3.375% with a lender credit of $1012 online, via phone the rate we received was 3.125 with a lender credit of $1012). We refinanced with them in the fall and had a pleasant experience, so hopefully this time around will be similar.

Cheers
I thought Lenderfi offered a no cost free refi if rates have fallen 0.25% after six months of your last refi with them? Since you say you refinanced with them in the fall, and I assume rates are down 0.25% since then, shouldn't this apply to you? I've been curious about this feature of their offers so would love to know if you discussed this with them.
seawolf21
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:23 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:03 am
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm

I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
Yes I read mortgage professor and it suggest home owner not having the lender policy is not uncommon. The settlement agent might or might not have provide a copy of the lender policy to home owner but they certainly would had provided a copy to the lender.
That article refers to the owner's policy (see underlined language):

A reissue is an extension of a current policy at a reduced premium, but to qualify borrowers must document that they have the policy that will be extended. The best way to do that is simply to produce the policy, but in many cases home buyers didn’t get a copy of the policy when they closed, and those that did may have lost it. If they don’t have a copy of their policy but they did retain the HUD1 closing document, the title policy will be identified there. Failing that, they may recall the closing agent who sold them the policy, or the lender, both of whom should have a copy.

There is an obvious moral here for home buyers: to avoid uncertainty and hassle, demand a copy of your title policy at closing, and place it in a secure place.


I sent over my owner policy and got the reissue rate. (Some buyers may also be able to get a reissue based off a seller's existing owner's policy.) FYI I'm not trying to argue with you. I just want people to be able to take advantage of the reissue rate if they can. According to this article, the title agent keeps 70-85% of the premium. https://www.federaltitle.com/title-insu ... al%2C%20et. Therefore, there is zero incentive for the title agent to let you know about the reissue rate. It should be mandatory that you automatically get the reissue rate, especially when most people don't know about it.
I think we are agreeing in different ways. :) My point is don't expect a copy of the lender title policy in your closing packet. After 8 purchase/refi transactions, the only title policy I've seen in my closing packets were owner's policy during purchase transactions.
4th and Inches
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 4th and Inches »

nickpete123 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:12 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:52 pm
frankandbeans wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:46 pm LenderFi is the only place I'm aware of that includes it in their papers. It's not clear to me whether it's enforceable or how exactly they would enforce it. Any Bogleheads want to volunteer to find out? :D
In all likelihood (and remember, I do NOT have any personal experience here), they would include it in the fees listed with a payoff quote during those 6 months. Many lenders charge fees (usually not onerous though - my last one charged $20 for filing the satisfaction of mortgage) for whatever reason and include such in the payoff quote. I know another person mentioned she was very upset at her old lender for adding in hundreds of fees to pad their pockets. So I wouldn't be surprised if LenderFi would use such quotes to "enforce" the clawback.

I’ve been tempted to find out myself as my 6 month period ends in 2 months. I did notice that on the final disclosure statement on the first page it says “does the loan have a prepayment penalty? NO”. So I’m wondering if that would hold more weight than the “agree to not have the INTENT to refinance within 180 days.” I didn’t have the intent 4 months ago but with rates so low and wanting to change to a 15 year makes me want to!
Just and FYI: The 180 day clock starts on the day your loan was sold, not the day it funded. That isn't clear in their documents because it doesn't clearly read that way. That could add 5-20 days depending on when Lenderfi sold yours. I was 38 days short of my 180 day period and they let me lock a new loan that ultimately closed a few days over the 180 day window. I ended up with 3.0% and like $290 in loan fees + escrow after the ~$1445 lender credit. I also had the appraisal waived. It sounds like you are getting close and it would not hurt to contact them to see if they will work with you.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:50 am I think we are agreeing in different ways. :) My point is don't expect a copy of the lender title policy in your closing packet. After 8 purchase/refi transactions, the only title policy I've seen in my closing packets were owner's policy during purchase transactions.
I've gotten a copy of the lender title policy in one refi before and one prior purchase. However, I concur that one shouldn't expect a copy of the lender title policy and their owner's policy or "proof of purchase" of the lender's policy (refi HUD-1 or final Closing Disclosure) should suffice, if reissue rates are available.

Interestingly, both of the times I got a copy of the lender policy was with PenFed CU mortgages. Maybe they do things a bit different. The purchase policy was issued by their affiliated third-party agency, PenFed Title. I don't remember who the refi was through as that was on a house that we sold years ago for a refi way over 15 years ago at this point.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am Yup. I was within a few days of closing on a 30 year 3.125% no fee loan. I decided to try better and they brought me down to a 30 year 3% no fee plus the $2500 from AMEX which I locked. I went back to my original lender and said "I see stories of rates dropping, etc. can you do better." Received a no. Told him I'm moving forward with someone else. Now he's trying to match the offer from Better. I'm going to turn around and go straight back to Better if he matches. The fact that the $2500 from AMEX is always there makes it impossible for others to compete as long as Better plays ball.

I saw someone above had 2.75% with $3700 in credits from Better, plus the $2500 from AMEX. That is my goal.
So I've been able to get a mortgage broker to beat better.com by $200 even factoring in the $2500 AMEX credit. I've gone back to better to see if they can match the deal (plus get me the $2500) but they are saying they don't match after locking in a rate but he'd "see what he can do". This is preferable because the $2500 is baked into the loan cost and I don't have to wait and hope a $2500 credit on my AMEX shows up. I'll let you know if I'm able to improve any more.

I've already had the "free" appraisal done by better, I hope I wouldn't get charged if I bailed on the loan.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Brain »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 pm
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:08 pm

How does one go about doing this? Is the title insurance policy part of the stack of papers you get from a mortgage? You just scanned it and sent to Better?
For my prior closing it was sent to me as a PDF and I just emailed that file over. I got the title commitment/binder prior to closing. It wasn't part of all of the closing documents.
I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
So does this mean that any title company can do a reissue, as long as the title insurance policy can be identified? It's not the settlement company reissuing, it's the insurance company? If that's the case, then the "reissue rate" can be shopped around. That's good to know.

I just got an updated closing disclosure from my previous title company. They're quoting me $1,119 after charging me $1,287 three years ago. And that's taking the reissue and return customer discounts into account. Ugh.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:12 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am Yup. I was within a few days of closing on a 30 year 3.125% no fee loan. I decided to try better and they brought me down to a 30 year 3% no fee plus the $2500 from AMEX which I locked. I went back to my original lender and said "I see stories of rates dropping, etc. can you do better." Received a no. Told him I'm moving forward with someone else. Now he's trying to match the offer from Better. I'm going to turn around and go straight back to Better if he matches. The fact that the $2500 from AMEX is always there makes it impossible for others to compete as long as Better plays ball.

I saw someone above had 2.75% with $3700 in credits from Better, plus the $2500 from AMEX. That is my goal.
So I've been able to get a mortgage broker to beat better.com by $200 even factoring in the $2500 AMEX credit. I've gone back to better to see if they can match the deal (plus get me the $2500) but they are saying they don't match after locking in a rate but he'd "see what he can do". This is preferable because the $2500 is baked into the loan cost and I don't have to wait and hope a $2500 credit on my AMEX shows up. I'll let you know if I'm able to improve any more.

I've already had the "free" appraisal done by better, I hope I wouldn't get charged if I bailed on the loan.
While it would be very surprising that Better beats that, it is a very strong offer from the broker that, IMO, doesn't deserve to be "used and abused" by people trying to get great competing offers. I would ask you to consider NOT sharing that broker's contact info so they don't get bombarded with requests on mortgages they won't actually close.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Fire_Buckeye »

ChiKid24 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:51 am
Fire_Buckeye wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:06 am I'll add another LenderFI data point.
We recently locked in a 30-year fixed conventional refi at 3.125% for a loan amount of ~220k and LTV of ~73%. Total out of pocket fees will be ~$125 (lender credit covers the rest and our appraisal was waived).

The loan officer we spoke to confirmed that their offered rates are indeed lower if you call (we were seeing 3.375% with a lender credit of $1012 online, via phone the rate we received was 3.125 with a lender credit of $1012). We refinanced with them in the fall and had a pleasant experience, so hopefully this time around will be similar.

Cheers
I thought Lenderfi offered a no cost free refi if rates have fallen 0.25% after six months of your last refi with them? Since you say you refinanced with them in the fall, and I assume rates are down 0.25% since then, shouldn't this apply to you? I've been curious about this feature of their offers so would love to know if you discussed this with them.
From their website:

Rate Insurance
If our rates, for the no cost option, drops by as little as .25 percent from your current rate and you
have made 6 on-time payments, we will rewrite your loan at no additional cost for life. (This
excludes prepaid interest)

The re-writing only applies for the no-cost options as I understand it. We were presented that option at 3.25%. Dropping the rate an additional 0.125% to 3.125% will cost us ~$125 in fees, which was worth the small amount of money and hassle of going through the standard refinance process rather than simply re-writing the loan.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

Brain wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:20 am
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
Gadget wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:19 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:15 pm

For my prior closing it was sent to me as a PDF and I just emailed that file over. I got the title commitment/binder prior to closing. It wasn't part of all of the closing documents.
I have (from the same house) all the papers signed from when we first bought the house, and the last refinance we did. I don't see title insurance papers anywhere. Just title insurance costs.

Think it's still worth asking Better to give the reissue rate? Or you specifically have to have the documentation?
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
So does this mean that any title company can do a reissue, as long as the title insurance policy can be identified? It's not the settlement company reissuing, it's the insurance company? If that's the case, then the "reissue rate" can be shopped around. That's good to know.

I just got an updated closing disclosure from my previous title company. They're quoting me $1,119 after charging me $1,287 three years ago. And that's taking the reissue and return customer discounts into account. Ugh.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the premiums, for both regular and reissue rates, are set by each state, maybe endorsement fees too. ? All of the other fees (settlement, examination, etc.) can vary between title companies. But not all states have reissue rates, and some have shorter time periods since the last policy was issued, like 2 years. You can search for "reissue rate" and your state, and see if your state does have reissue rates and what's needed to qualify. If your state does have reissue rates, you should also be able to find a reissue rate calculator online.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Gadget »

So on title insurance... I'm curious on different peoples rates. Better.com lists mine as $2200 for title lenders title insurance and title settlement fee in Box C. I thought that was outrageous, but in my state, I can't find anyone cheaper. I even called my last title company and asked for a re-issue rate. They gave me one for $1700. But then when I asked if that was the out the door cost, they started listing other fees, like a per page document fee and some other garbage that made it jump to $2150. Which was practically the same as better.

So I asked my former title company to email me my last policy since they didn't send me one on my last refinance. They are saying that they can't find it because they changed computer systems...

It's all a racket. I've apparently learned my lesson and will demand a copy of lender's title insurance on all refinances from here on out.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Gadget wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:55 am So on title insurance... I'm curious on different peoples rates. Better.com lists mine as $2200 for title lenders title insurance and title settlement fee in Box C. I thought that was outrageous, but in my state, I can't find anyone cheaper. I even called my last title company and asked for a re-issue rate. They gave me one for $1700. But then when I asked if that was the out the door cost, they started listing other fees, like a per page document fee and some other garbage that made it jump to $2150. Which was practically the same as better.

So I asked my former title company to email me my last policy since they didn't send me one on my last refinance. They are saying that they can't find it because they changed computer systems...

It's all a racket. I've apparently learned my lesson and will demand a copy of lender's title insurance on all refinances from here on out.
Indeed. NC title insurance rates are set by the state and the reissue rate is 50% of purchase rate. Endorsements and Closing Protection Letter are fixed and also set by the state. So my title insurance cost $200. The other costs for title services can vary greatly, even locally. I shopped around in the past and again this time. My preferred provider does $800 flat fee + title insurance cost for most refis, with clearly disclosed extras up front (for instance, if paying off two mortgages, add $50 to cover second wire fee and extra legwork). Getting quotes around town, most were closer to $2k and one was even $3,800.

It pays to shop around, but it is all indeed a money marker for the providers.
WhyRWeHere
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:50 am
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:23 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:03 am
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:57 am
seawolf21 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:58 am
You wouldn't have it because this is in reference to the lender's title insurance so the prior lender has it, not you. Some states don't have reissue rate.
Not true. You just need to send over your owner's policy to request a reissue rate. I guess they just need to know that title insurance exists on the property to qualify for the reduced rate. This article that I posted earlier even suggests that your prior closing statement might be enough as it lists the title insurance info. https://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20Ti ... Rates.html True not all states have reissue rates, but I think that most do.
Yes I read mortgage professor and it suggest home owner not having the lender policy is not uncommon. The settlement agent might or might not have provide a copy of the lender policy to home owner but they certainly would had provided a copy to the lender.
That article refers to the owner's policy (see underlined language):

A reissue is an extension of a current policy at a reduced premium, but to qualify borrowers must document that they have the policy that will be extended. The best way to do that is simply to produce the policy, but in many cases home buyers didn’t get a copy of the policy when they closed, and those that did may have lost it. If they don’t have a copy of their policy but they did retain the HUD1 closing document, the title policy will be identified there. Failing that, they may recall the closing agent who sold them the policy, or the lender, both of whom should have a copy.

There is an obvious moral here for home buyers: to avoid uncertainty and hassle, demand a copy of your title policy at closing, and place it in a secure place.


I sent over my owner policy and got the reissue rate. (Some buyers may also be able to get a reissue based off a seller's existing owner's policy.) FYI I'm not trying to argue with you. I just want people to be able to take advantage of the reissue rate if they can. According to this article, the title agent keeps 70-85% of the premium. https://www.federaltitle.com/title-insu ... al%2C%20et. Therefore, there is zero incentive for the title agent to let you know about the reissue rate. It should be mandatory that you automatically get the reissue rate, especially when most people don't know about it.
I think we are agreeing in different ways. :) My point is don't expect a copy of the lender title policy in your closing packet. After 8 purchase/refi transactions, the only title policy I've seen in my closing packets were owner's policy during purchase transactions.
I thought you were saying that you need the lender policy (or proof of a lender policy) to get the reissue rate. But everything I read says that you need to provide the owner's policy, or proof thereof.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Brain »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:22 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:12 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am Yup. I was within a few days of closing on a 30 year 3.125% no fee loan. I decided to try better and they brought me down to a 30 year 3% no fee plus the $2500 from AMEX which I locked. I went back to my original lender and said "I see stories of rates dropping, etc. can you do better." Received a no. Told him I'm moving forward with someone else. Now he's trying to match the offer from Better. I'm going to turn around and go straight back to Better if he matches. The fact that the $2500 from AMEX is always there makes it impossible for others to compete as long as Better plays ball.

I saw someone above had 2.75% with $3700 in credits from Better, plus the $2500 from AMEX. That is my goal.
So I've been able to get a mortgage broker to beat better.com by $200 even factoring in the $2500 AMEX credit. I've gone back to better to see if they can match the deal (plus get me the $2500) but they are saying they don't match after locking in a rate but he'd "see what he can do". This is preferable because the $2500 is baked into the loan cost and I don't have to wait and hope a $2500 credit on my AMEX shows up. I'll let you know if I'm able to improve any more.

I've already had the "free" appraisal done by better, I hope I wouldn't get charged if I bailed on the loan.
While it would be very surprising that Better beats that, it is a very strong offer from the broker that, IMO, doesn't deserve to be "used and abused" by people trying to get great competing offers. I would ask you to consider NOT sharing that broker's contact info so they don't get bombarded with requests on mortgages they won't actually close.
I, too, got a fantastic quote from a competitor trying to match Better's Amex deal. The other guy was able to come close. He was $1,565 better than Better without Amex, but $755 short when factoring it in.

$755 is $755, so I thanked him for the extraordinary effort and wrapped things up. But now I have this Loan Estimate that, excluding the Amex rebate, is better than Better's. If Better can match/beat it, excellent. If they can't, fine. But I'm not going to leave money on the table.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by SEAworld9 »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:16 am
anon_investor wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:04 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:41 am Just to update you all on my Better refinance. I’ve hit my first head scratcher.

Yesterday my estimated closing costs and cash to close were the same amount, $2600. Now today, the loan estimate has changed and the closing costs are still $2600 but the cash to close is now $3600. I was fine with $2600 because I’d be getting $2500 back from AMEX. I’m not fine with $3600. Nothing in A-J has changed. What seems to have changed is the “estimated total payoffs and payments” seems to have increased $1000. Fortunately I downloaded the old estimate... The payoff amount should actually drop, not increase, because I’ll be making a July mortgage payment

Will update you.
Did the prepaids increase?
The only number that changed was on page 2 “Calculating Cash to Close”. There are four numbers:

1) Loan amount
2) Total Closing Costs (J)
3) Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments
4) Estimated Cash to Close

Yesterday 1) and 3) were the same number.
Today 3) is $1000 higher than 1) and therefore 4) is $1000 higher than yesterday.

Nothing changed in A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, or J.
Look at your payoff statement - the amount will be higher than the actual principal amount left due to (most likely) a recording fee and interest based on closing date. They usually include a buffer on these based on an estimated closing date + X days for cushion. It comes back to you once everything is finalized.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

Brain wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:23 am
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:22 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:12 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am Yup. I was within a few days of closing on a 30 year 3.125% no fee loan. I decided to try better and they brought me down to a 30 year 3% no fee plus the $2500 from AMEX which I locked. I went back to my original lender and said "I see stories of rates dropping, etc. can you do better." Received a no. Told him I'm moving forward with someone else. Now he's trying to match the offer from Better. I'm going to turn around and go straight back to Better if he matches. The fact that the $2500 from AMEX is always there makes it impossible for others to compete as long as Better plays ball.

I saw someone above had 2.75% with $3700 in credits from Better, plus the $2500 from AMEX. That is my goal.
So I've been able to get a mortgage broker to beat better.com by $200 even factoring in the $2500 AMEX credit. I've gone back to better to see if they can match the deal (plus get me the $2500) but they are saying they don't match after locking in a rate but he'd "see what he can do". This is preferable because the $2500 is baked into the loan cost and I don't have to wait and hope a $2500 credit on my AMEX shows up. I'll let you know if I'm able to improve any more.

I've already had the "free" appraisal done by better, I hope I wouldn't get charged if I bailed on the loan.
While it would be very surprising that Better beats that, it is a very strong offer from the broker that, IMO, doesn't deserve to be "used and abused" by people trying to get great competing offers. I would ask you to consider NOT sharing that broker's contact info so they don't get bombarded with requests on mortgages they won't actually close.
I, too, got a fantastic quote from a competitor trying to match Better's Amex deal. The other guy was able to come close. He was $1,565 better than Better without Amex, but $755 short when factoring it in.

$755 is $755, so I thanked him for the extraordinary effort and wrapped things up. But now I have this Loan Estimate that, excluding the Amex rebate, is better than Better's. If Better can match/beat it, excellent. If they can't, fine. But I'm not going to leave money on the table.
Absolutely how I feel. The chances of refinancing again below where we are today at no cost are very slim so I want to make sure I get every penny out of it. As it stands I have improved my position to the tune of 0.125% and $4000 in additional lender credits in about a weeks time hustling via phone and e-mail. This isn't chump change.

I really want Better to match the deal + throw in the $2500. Then we're talking $7500 credits at that point which means I can buy the rate down to 2.75% and still have all closing costs covered and a chunk of escrow prepaids covered as well. If they can't I'm going to abandon and go with the deal with the broker.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 am
Brain wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:23 am I, too, got a fantastic quote from a competitor trying to match Better's Amex deal. The other guy was able to come close. He was $1,565 better than Better without Amex, but $755 short when factoring it in.

$755 is $755, so I thanked him for the extraordinary effort and wrapped things up. But now I have this Loan Estimate that, excluding the Amex rebate, is better than Better's. If Better can match/beat it, excellent. If they can't, fine. But I'm not going to leave money on the table.
Absolutely how I feel. The chances of refinancing again below where we are today at no cost are very slim so I want to make sure I get every penny out of it. As it stands I have improved my position to the tune of 0.125% and $4000 in additional lender credits in about a weeks time hustling via phone and e-mail. This isn't chump change.

I really want Better to match the deal + throw in the $2500. Then we're talking $7500 credits at that point which means I can buy the rate down to 2.75% and still have all closing costs covered and a chunk of escrow prepaids covered as well. If they can't I'm going to abandon and go with the deal with the broker.
Oh I agree. Get the best deal you can. Just expect some people to ask who that broker is so they can do the same. That's where I ask you consider not sharing their details even via PM to someone. Quotes I get without any particular work or aren't that far off from what I can get elsewhere, no problem. But find a unicorn broker that is genuinely helpful, I wouldn't want that person putting work in w/o getting paid. Good luck!
WhyRWeHere
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:22 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:12 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am Yup. I was within a few days of closing on a 30 year 3.125% no fee loan. I decided to try better and they brought me down to a 30 year 3% no fee plus the $2500 from AMEX which I locked. I went back to my original lender and said "I see stories of rates dropping, etc. can you do better." Received a no. Told him I'm moving forward with someone else. Now he's trying to match the offer from Better. I'm going to turn around and go straight back to Better if he matches. The fact that the $2500 from AMEX is always there makes it impossible for others to compete as long as Better plays ball.

I saw someone above had 2.75% with $3700 in credits from Better, plus the $2500 from AMEX. That is my goal.
So I've been able to get a mortgage broker to beat better.com by $200 even factoring in the $2500 AMEX credit. I've gone back to better to see if they can match the deal (plus get me the $2500) but they are saying they don't match after locking in a rate but he'd "see what he can do". This is preferable because the $2500 is baked into the loan cost and I don't have to wait and hope a $2500 credit on my AMEX shows up. I'll let you know if I'm able to improve any more.

I've already had the "free" appraisal done by better, I hope I wouldn't get charged if I bailed on the loan.
While it would be very surprising that Better beats that, it is a very strong offer from the broker that, IMO, doesn't deserve to be "used and abused" by people trying to get great competing offers. I would ask you to consider NOT sharing that broker's contact info so they don't get bombarded with requests on mortgages they won't actually close.
This is what bother me about Better, although I am locked with them right now. They don't give you their best rate, but have you bring them offers to beat. When Better beat the offer I brought to them, I took Better's offer to the first lender and asked if they could beat it, or even match. They couldn't come close because of the $2,500 AmEx deal. But I did make the point of telling them that I wouldn't be taking their revised offer back to Better to beat it. Once the AmEx deal is over (end of July I think), the other lenders will have a level playing field again.
Last edited by WhyRWeHere on Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Brain
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Brain »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:39 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 am
Brain wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:23 am I, too, got a fantastic quote from a competitor trying to match Better's Amex deal. The other guy was able to come close. He was $1,565 better than Better without Amex, but $755 short when factoring it in.

$755 is $755, so I thanked him for the extraordinary effort and wrapped things up. But now I have this Loan Estimate that, excluding the Amex rebate, is better than Better's. If Better can match/beat it, excellent. If they can't, fine. But I'm not going to leave money on the table.
Absolutely how I feel. The chances of refinancing again below where we are today at no cost are very slim so I want to make sure I get every penny out of it. As it stands I have improved my position to the tune of 0.125% and $4000 in additional lender credits in about a weeks time hustling via phone and e-mail. This isn't chump change.

I really want Better to match the deal + throw in the $2500. Then we're talking $7500 credits at that point which means I can buy the rate down to 2.75% and still have all closing costs covered and a chunk of escrow prepaids covered as well. If they can't I'm going to abandon and go with the deal with the broker.
Oh I agree. Get the best deal you can. Just expect some people to ask who that broker is so they can do the same. That's where I ask you consider not sharing their details even via PM to someone. Quotes I get without any particular work or aren't that far off from what I can get elsewhere, no problem. But find a unicorn broker that is genuinely helpful, I wouldn't want that person putting work in w/o getting paid. Good luck!
I told the guy I'd freely share his name and refer him. He worked hard, but wasn't able to beat a ridiculously good offer. I don't fault him one bit. And I wasn't working with him just to get Better to do better. I mean, it was certainly in my mind, but I didn't intend to just "pump and dump" him.

Now, if everybody and their uncle has this Amex deal available, then, yeah, he's gonna get a lot of close calls. So, yeah, maybe sharing his name on Bogleheads wouldn't be the best move. You guys are too savvy.
Qw1221wq
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Qw1221wq »

Lender is saying Fannie Mae is requiring full appraisal. Is there something I can point to that states Fannie Mae is temporarily waiving full appraisal requirements for COVID and exterior appraisal is allowed?
WhyRWeHere
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:31 pm Lender is saying Fannie Mae is requiring full appraisal. Is there something I can point to that states Fannie Mae is temporarily waiving full appraisal requirements for COVID and exterior appraisal is allowed?
If it's a refinance, you still need a full appraisal under Fannie Mae. Here is the guidance for appraisals during covid under Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/COV ... -31-20.htm

The relevant part states:

Why does Fannie Mae allow the desktop appraisal for purchase but not refinances?

Homes available for purchase are the most likely to have current photos and data concerning the subject property. Refinances may have very dated information in the MLS, if any at all. Having the appraiser complete an exterior inspection provides current information about the home’s condition that might not be available otherwise. Reminder, for refinances of non-Fannie Mae owned loans and all cash-out refinances, we continue to require a traditional appraisal.
Qw1221wq
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Qw1221wq »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:41 pm
Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:31 pm Lender is saying Fannie Mae is requiring full appraisal. Is there something I can point to that states Fannie Mae is temporarily waiving full appraisal requirements for COVID and exterior appraisal is allowed?
If it's a refinance, you still need a full appraisal under Fannie Mae. Here is the guidance for appraisals during covid under Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/COV ... -31-20.htm

The relevant part states:

Why does Fannie Mae allow the desktop appraisal for purchase but not refinances?

Homes available for purchase are the most likely to have current photos and data concerning the subject property. Refinances may have very dated information in the MLS, if any at all. Having the appraiser complete an exterior inspection provides current information about the home’s condition that might not be available otherwise. Reminder, for refinances of non-Fannie Mae owned loans and all cash-out refinances, we continue to require a traditional appraisal.
I thought majority of people on here have said their appraisal is waived.
WhyRWeHere
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by WhyRWeHere »

Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:45 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:41 pm
Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:31 pm Lender is saying Fannie Mae is requiring full appraisal. Is there something I can point to that states Fannie Mae is temporarily waiving full appraisal requirements for COVID and exterior appraisal is allowed?
If it's a refinance, you still need a full appraisal under Fannie Mae. Here is the guidance for appraisals during covid under Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/COV ... -31-20.htm

The relevant part states:

Why does Fannie Mae allow the desktop appraisal for purchase but not refinances?

Homes available for purchase are the most likely to have current photos and data concerning the subject property. Refinances may have very dated information in the MLS, if any at all. Having the appraiser complete an exterior inspection provides current information about the home’s condition that might not be available otherwise. Reminder, for refinances of non-Fannie Mae owned loans and all cash-out refinances, we continue to require a traditional appraisal.
I thought majority of people on here have said their appraisal is waived.
Maybe it's a recent change? That notice is dated June 11th. Or maybe the people that have had the appraisal waived are with lenders that don't sell their loans, so they don't need to follow Fannie Mae guidelines. I'm guessing on both.
Qw1221wq
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Qw1221wq »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:16 pm
Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:45 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:41 pm
Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:31 pm Lender is saying Fannie Mae is requiring full appraisal. Is there something I can point to that states Fannie Mae is temporarily waiving full appraisal requirements for COVID and exterior appraisal is allowed?
If it's a refinance, you still need a full appraisal under Fannie Mae. Here is the guidance for appraisals during covid under Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/COV ... -31-20.htm

The relevant part states:

Why does Fannie Mae allow the desktop appraisal for purchase but not refinances?

Homes available for purchase are the most likely to have current photos and data concerning the subject property. Refinances may have very dated information in the MLS, if any at all. Having the appraiser complete an exterior inspection provides current information about the home’s condition that might not be available otherwise. Reminder, for refinances of non-Fannie Mae owned loans and all cash-out refinances, we continue to require a traditional appraisal.
I thought majority of people on here have said their appraisal is waived.
Maybe it's a recent change? That notice is dated June 11th. Or maybe the people that have had the appraisal waived are with lenders that don't sell their loans, so they don't need to follow Fannie Mae guidelines. I'm guessing on both.
Better sells all of their loans. Better has been waiving appraisals for most people.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:23 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:16 pm
Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:45 pmI thought majority of people on here have said their appraisal is waived.
Maybe it's a recent change? That notice is dated June 11th. Or maybe the people that have had the appraisal waived are with lenders that don't sell their loans, so they don't need to follow Fannie Mae guidelines. I'm guessing on both.
Better sells all of their loans. Better has been waiving appraisals for most people.
Much of this will depend on who a lender plans to sell for and what automated underwriting platform they use. All 9 of my applications at various lenders (at least the ones that got far enough to check this) came back with a PIW and for the same amount.

I put in $X as my estimate home value and every one of them (again, of those who processed that far) automatically changed to $X + $19,000, even my local CU. Better ended up originating my loan and has Wells Fargo listed as the investor when looking it up in MERS. Fannie Mae’s lookup says my loan is not with them.
seawolf21
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:45 pm
WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:41 pm
Qw1221wq wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:31 pm Lender is saying Fannie Mae is requiring full appraisal. Is there something I can point to that states Fannie Mae is temporarily waiving full appraisal requirements for COVID and exterior appraisal is allowed?
If it's a refinance, you still need a full appraisal under Fannie Mae. Here is the guidance for appraisals during covid under Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/COV ... -31-20.htm

The relevant part states:

Why does Fannie Mae allow the desktop appraisal for purchase but not refinances?

Homes available for purchase are the most likely to have current photos and data concerning the subject property. Refinances may have very dated information in the MLS, if any at all. Having the appraiser complete an exterior inspection provides current information about the home’s condition that might not be available otherwise. Reminder, for refinances of non-Fannie Mae owned loans and all cash-out refinances, we continue to require a traditional appraisal.
I thought majority of people on here have said their appraisal is waived.
Define “appraisal is waived.” That could mean the fee is waived (due to Amex offer with better) not the appraisal itself being waived.

It should be pointed out this is not the 1st refi for a number of us participating on this thread. If there is a recent refi, Fannie Mae may be also waive having to perform another appraisal.

My first refi was summer 2019. Had to do an appraisal despite purchase in fall 2018. Since that refi, had another refi done in fall 2019, spring 2020, and one reifi in process now. No additional appraisal needed since summer 2019.

My understanding from all prior refi lenders is that Fannie Mae determines if appraisal is needed or not; not the broker such as lenderfi or better.
asahopkins
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by asahopkins »

We are refinancing our home, and I'm trying to work out whether to do a no-cost refi or pay points for a lower rate.

Situation:
Loan would be for ~$670k; LTV ~0.6. FICO 760+. Super-conforming.
We're going to be in this house forever (or let's assume so).

LenderFi is offering a no-cost at 3.0%, no points (costs ~$1600) for 2.875%, and 0.56 points ($3800 + $1600 costs) for 2.75%

Argument for the no-cost option: preserves the ability to refinance again in ~6 months if rates are lower. Right now, the spread between mortgage rates and treasuries is about 0.5 points above the long-term average. If Treasuries stay low (which seems likely given the pandemic) then mortgage rates should fall further.

Argument for paying for points: We'll be in the house for long enough to get the payoff. Only have to shop for refinance and do paperwork once. Rates may not fall further (or they may fall far enough that refinancing is worth it anyway -- e.g. if the no-cost level got down below 2.75%).

I welcome your thinking on this topic/choice. Thank you!
tbone555
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tbone555 »

Just adding in my experience so far in case it helps anyone.

I applied and locked a 3% 30-year refi at better yesterday. Did all the paper work electronically yesterday and the loan is in underwriting as of this morning. Their rates were higher and I had to get another quote for them to beat - which they did by $1000 plus the Amex credit and waived appraisal fee (looks like I won't need an appraisal at all anyways). Total work on my part so far is about 2 hours.

I also have a single-family investment house that I rent out. They said this is also eligible for the Amex deal. So far the rates probably don't make sense to move a ahead with a refi, but I haven't yet shopped for a better rate that Better will hopefully then beat.
tbone555
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tbone555 »

asahopkins wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 pm We are refinancing our home, and I'm trying to work out whether to do a no-cost refi or pay points for a lower rate.

Situation:
Loan would be for ~$670k; LTV ~0.6. FICO 760+. Super-conforming.
We're going to be in this house forever (or let's assume so).

LenderFi is offering a

Argument for the no-cost option: preserves the ability to refinance again in ~6 months if rates are lower. Right now, the spread between mortgage rates and treasuries is about 0.5 points above the long-term average. If Treasuries stay low (which seems likely given the pandemic) then mortgage rates should fall further.

Argument for paying for points: We'll be in the house for long enough to get the payoff. Only have to shop for refinance and do paperwork once. Rates may not fall further (or they may fall far enough that refinancing is worth it anyway -- e.g. if the no-cost level got down below 2.75%).

I welcome your thinking on this topic/choice. Thank you!
Bring the offer to Better.com, let them beat it plus take advantage of the Amex deal.

'no-cost at 3.0%, no points (costs ~$1600) for 2.875%, and 0.56 points ($3800 + $1600 costs) for 2.75%'

What's the extra points for the 2.875 rate?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

tbone555 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:23 pm
asahopkins wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 pm no-cost at 3.0%, no points (costs ~$1600) for 2.875%, and 0.56 points ($3800 + $1600 costs) for 2.75%
What's the extra points for the 2.875 rate?
I read it as the 3.0% is negative points to net out at $0 closing costs, 2.875% has no points, leaving all other costs (except prepaids and escrow) at $1,600, and 2.75% adding $3,800 in points.
tbone555
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tbone555 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:25 pm
tbone555 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:23 pm
asahopkins wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 pm no-cost at 3.0%, no points (costs ~$1600) for 2.875%, and 0.56 points ($3800 + $1600 costs) for 2.75%
What's the extra points for the 2.875 rate?
I read it as the 3.0% is negative points to net out at $0 closing costs, 2.875% has no points, leaving all other costs (except prepaids and escrow) at $1,600, and 2.75% adding $3,800 in points.
Ah ok that makes sense. Probably wouldn't pay points unless the payback is short. Or I might consider rolling the extra costs in to the new principal. Although I've learned my lesson on that as I refinanced down to 3.375 last summer and rolled in some costs. Not doing that this time as I refinanced down to 3%.
BarDownHockey
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BarDownHockey »

I'm curious what people think of the following two offers. I currently have a 3.75%, $800k loan with a 75% LTV:

1. 30 year, no points, 3.25% (3.263% APR), $3,100 in net closing costs excluding prepaids ($3,500 less a $400 lender credit), no escrow. My monthly payment would go down $450.
2. 30 year, no points, 3.375% (3.393% APR), $1,700 in net closing costs excluding prepaids ($3,700 less a $2,000 lender credit), no escrow. My monthly payment would go down $400.

Jumbo's have been hard to find banks or brokers who are refi'ing right now. In both cases, I can roll the costs into the new loan amount, which I plan to do (but am open to understand if I shouldn't).

I'm conscious that rates might drop lower in the coming months, especially for jumbos which seem to have seized up right now, and I'd look to refi again. If so, I'm leaning towards #2 because of the lower closing costs, thinking that the break even is a shorter time frame and I'm out fewer costs if I refi before break even. But I'm new to this so I'd appreciate help with what I should be thinking about deciding between the two.
All_About_Benjis
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by All_About_Benjis »

asahopkins wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 pm We are refinancing our home, and I'm trying to work out whether to do a no-cost refi or pay points for a lower rate.

Situation:
Loan would be for ~$670k; LTV ~0.6. FICO 760+. Super-conforming.
We're going to be in this house forever (or let's assume so).

LenderFi is offering a no-cost at 3.0%, no points (costs ~$1600) for 2.875%, and 0.56 points ($3800 + $1600 costs) for 2.75%

Argument for the no-cost option: preserves the ability to refinance again in ~6 months if rates are lower. Right now, the spread between mortgage rates and treasuries is about 0.5 points above the long-term average. If Treasuries stay low (which seems likely given the pandemic) then mortgage rates should fall further.

Argument for paying for points: We'll be in the house for long enough to get the payoff. Only have to shop for refinance and do paperwork once. Rates may not fall further (or they may fall far enough that refinancing is worth it anyway -- e.g. if the no-cost level got down below 2.75%).

I welcome your thinking on this topic/choice. Thank you!
Quick question - are you getting these rates online or by calling? I've been on the hunt for a 3.0% with no cost to us, but LenderFi's online estimates include about $2000 in closing costs.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

BarDownHockey wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:47 pm I'm curious what people think of the following two offers. I currently have a 3.75%, $800k loan with a 75% LTV:
...
I'm conscious that rates might drop lower in the coming months, especially for jumbos which seem to have seized up right now, and I'd look to refi again. If so, I'm leaning towards #2 because of the lower closing costs, thinking that the break even is a shorter time frame and I'm out fewer costs if I refi before break even. But I'm new to this so I'd appreciate help with what I should be thinking about deciding between the two.
While the general rule is to get as close to no-cost as possible, that does need to be balanced against the real world. You are talking about a $1,300 difference on a $800k loan. In the first six months, the difference in interest costs between the two loans is about $500 and about $1k in one year. So in less than 18 months, you will have saved in interest what you lost in lender credits. That is not a long time.

So the real question is if you do not find a better deal within 18 months, will it eat at you that over 30 years, you will have paid over $27k more in interest on option 2 (this assumes no extra payments and you don't refi/sell for 30 years). Or in other words, would a $1,300 "insurance" policy against a long-term loss be worthwhile? In my own personal shoes, I honestly would seriously consider option 1 unless I felt it very likely I would refi again.

Also, if you did go with option 1 and refi 6 months from now for 3.125%, the savings after just another 18 months will already exceed what you "lost" from this safety net. So while the general rule is to pay as little as possible, that is a "cheap" point to pay to get the lower rate.

On my refi last month, I had a very similar decision. I could either go 2.625% for no cost or 2.875% for $1,000 back to me. $1k won't materially change my life and I've "wasted" far more than that in questionable decisions. So I took the 2.625%. Now I'm already looking at refi'ing again. If I go to 2.25%, the savings on the new loan overshadows a $1k loss.
Gadget
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Gadget »

WhyRWeHere wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:07 am I thought you were saying that you need the lender policy (or proof of a lender policy) to get the reissue rate. But everything I read says that you need to provide the owner's policy, or proof thereof.
This seems to jive with what I've found. Better.com told me that since I didn't use them in my last refinance, I couldn't get a reissue rate with them.

I contacted my last title insurance company and they were not the easiest to talk to. My state doesn't offer reissue rates, so they said they'd give me a discount instead. They quoted $1700 vs $2200 from Better. Sounded great, and I asked them if that'd be the out the door cost. They said no of course not, there are recording fees, page printing fees, etc. Out the door cost was $2400. I said that was more expensive than Better, and I could hear the shrug over the phone... They didn't even care to compete. I called 4 other title places in my area, and all gave estimates from $2200-$2900.

I tried to get my old title company to send me my last refinance title insurance policy. They said that I did not have an owner title insurance policy. I only had a lender title insurance policy from my last refi, and they wouldn't give me the lender policy.

I'm trying to figure out why anyone would even have an owner's title policy in place unless they bought the house in cash and were doing a cash out refi.
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