Refinance Mega Thread

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drizzleray
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by drizzleray »

2quiker wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:05 am Question for the folks that refinanced through Better and qualified for the appraisal waver, how long did it take to get your appraisal credit back onto your credit card from Better?
When I refinanced last year, I received a partial refund (actual cost was less than estimated appraisal cost) the day I received my post-consummation closing disclosure, about 2 weeks after the loan was funded.
2quiker
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 2quiker »

drizzleray wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:43 am
2quiker wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:05 am Question for the folks that refinanced through Better and qualified for the appraisal waver, how long did it take to get your appraisal credit back onto your credit card from Better?
When I refinanced last year, I received a partial refund (actual cost was less than estimated appraisal cost) the day I received my post-consummation closing disclosure, about 2 weeks after the loan was funded.
Thanks for the info.
tuck3979
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tuck3979 »

these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Congrats! That is a phenomenal offer!! What state and loan amount is that for?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Anonymous Coward »

This thread is getting loooooong, and there are many hits when searching the thread on AmEx.

I called and spoke to AmEx and the rep cautioned me that the Better.com offer is confusing to many. I was told, make sure the name and the emails match, i.e., whatever email you have attached to your AmEx card, make sure you use that same email with Better.com.

Better.com does actually have a ready-built "change email" function attached to the profile, so if you initially used a different email, as I did, you can remedy it easily.
tuck3979
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tuck3979 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:31 pm
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Congrats! That is a phenomenal offer!! What state and loan amount is that for?
$325k loan, 75% LTV, Illinois. Used this thread and slickdeals to learn more and monitor others successes. Was mostly a game of getting lenders to compete and waiting for prime market conditions. Started Thursday morning after Wednesday fed announcement. Honestly don't even think this is the bottom yet, but happy to take these rates for now. Zillow used to be my go-to but became useless in the current environment. Rate sheets are moving like crazy and you need to get the lender/broker on the line and talk out what you want vs. what they've been seeing on their end. Honestly I expect rates to be as competitive as ever this week minus a few swings. So good luck to everyone!

note to everyone, the rates you see are not the rates you'll be quoted. LenderFi offered me a no-cost 2.625% 30-year (A+B+C = $1200 / Credit = $1300). Their site didn't show anything decent below 3% before applying. Similar deals for AimLoan and other internet brokers. Better refused to match but I wen't back to them and simply asked them to give me their best offer and I'd probably take it because of AMEX credit.

literally shocked that you can lock a no-cost 2.25% 15-year right now. Mind blowing. And yet... I can't help but think that someone will snag a no-cost 2% in the not too distant future.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:07 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:31 pm
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Congrats! That is a phenomenal offer!! What state and loan amount is that for?
$325k loan, 75% LTV, Illinois. Used this thread and slickdeals to learn more and monitor others successes. Was mostly a game of getting lenders to compete and waiting for prime market conditions. Started Thursday morning after Wednesday fed announcement. Honestly don't even think this is the bottom yet, but happy to take these rates for now. Zillow used to be my go-to but became useless in the current environment. Rate sheets are moving like crazy and you need to get the lender/broker on the line and talk out what you want vs. what they've been seeing on their end. Honestly I expect rates to be as competitive as ever this week minus a few swings. So good luck to everyone!

note to everyone, the rates you see are not the rates you'll be quoted. LenderFi offered me a no-cost 2.625% 30-year (A+B+C = $1200 / Credit = $1300). Their site didn't show anything decent below 3% before applying. Similar deals for AimLoan and other internet brokers. Better refused to match but I wen't back to them and simply asked them to give me their best offer and I'd probably take it because of AMEX credit.

literally shocked that you can lock a no-cost 2.25% 15-year right now. Mind blowing. And yet... I can't help but think that someone will snag a no-cost 2% in the not too distant future.
My personal notes where if I could find a 2.25% no-cost refi, I would do another refi. Sounds like I may have to unfreeze my reports again soon. I’m waiting for the Amex credit to post first though.

Just keep in mind the rules (Better’s? Fannie Mae’s?) around refis that are NOT cash out. No more than $2k can be given to the borrow at closing. If there is more lender credit after third party fees, it can be used towards paying escrow. If after that, if even applicable, up to $2,500 can be used towards principal reduction. If you still have over $2k in credits left at closing, you forfeit those about $2k.

Note, this is at closing. Thus, the Amex credit doesn’t apply to these limits.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

anon_investor wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:59 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:43 am
BrandonBogle wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 10:55 am When I was shopping around for a similarly sized refi, I found that credit unions were more competitive for me than direct lenders (on rates) or brokers (on closing costs). Thankfully, Better Mortgage offers to try and beat other offers, so I sent them my credit union offer with a competitive rate (back in the end of April at least) and competitive closing costs. All told, I ended up with a 0.25% lower interest rate than the credit union and with no closing costs to boot.

Note, this was on a 15-year mortgage, but the same should apply with simply a higher rate on a 30-year mortgage. Happy hunting!
In a stroke of irony, one of the lenders I checked around with was Wells Fargo. Even with relationship discounts and willing to move assets there, WF wasn't as competitive as my local CU and Better (after matching that CU). Well today, while I still see my mortgage at The Money Source and MERS still says it is owned/invested by Better Mortgage, I see the mortgage at Wells Fargo when I log in. I suspect in the next few days I will get a notice saying servicing is being transferred to WF. We will see if ownership remains with Better or gets sold elsewhere. FYI, my first payment isn't due until July.
Haha. With my luck my servicing will be transferred from The Money Source to Wells Fargo (where my loan was before I did my refi with Ally Bank).
So today MERS updated and it shows that not only is WF my servicer, but my investor. So they bought the entire mortgage and not just the servicing. Now if only they would be kind enough to apply the relationship pricing discount to this mortgage. I wouldn't turn down another 0.125%, 0.25%, or 0.5% rate reduction! lol
tuck3979
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tuck3979 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:13 pm
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:07 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:31 pm
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Congrats! That is a phenomenal offer!! What state and loan amount is that for?
$325k loan, 75% LTV, Illinois. Used this thread and slickdeals to learn more and monitor others successes. Was mostly a game of getting lenders to compete and waiting for prime market conditions. Started Thursday morning after Wednesday fed announcement. Honestly don't even think this is the bottom yet, but happy to take these rates for now. Zillow used to be my go-to but became useless in the current environment. Rate sheets are moving like crazy and you need to get the lender/broker on the line and talk out what you want vs. what they've been seeing on their end. Honestly I expect rates to be as competitive as ever this week minus a few swings. So good luck to everyone!

note to everyone, the rates you see are not the rates you'll be quoted. LenderFi offered me a no-cost 2.625% 30-year (A+B+C = $1200 / Credit = $1300). Their site didn't show anything decent below 3% before applying. Similar deals for AimLoan and other internet brokers. Better refused to match but I wen't back to them and simply asked them to give me their best offer and I'd probably take it because of AMEX credit.

literally shocked that you can lock a no-cost 2.25% 15-year right now. Mind blowing. And yet... I can't help but think that someone will snag a no-cost 2% in the not too distant future.
My personal notes where if I could find a 2.25% no-cost refi, I would do another refi. Sounds like I may have to unfreeze my reports again soon. I’m waiting for the Amex credit to post first though.

Just keep in mind the rules (Better’s? Fannie Mae’s?) around refis that are NOT cash out. No more than $2k can be given to the borrow at closing. If there is more lender credit after third party fees, it can be used towards paying escrow. If after that, if even applicable, up to $2,500 can be used towards principal reduction. If you still have over $2k in credits left at closing, you forfeit those about $2k.

Note, this is at closing. Thus, the Amex credit doesn’t apply to these limits.
excellent feedback, I actually learned that from this thread earlier. I escrow for convenience (i know it's not super popular here to escrow) so the credits won't be an issue for me given they will be applied to prepaids. I'm also planning on shopping for title so I hope to haggle Better into an even larger credit as I've seen several people present cheaper title options and Better is quick to offer additional credit to keep using theirs.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:21 pm excellent feedback, I actually learned that from this thread earlier. I escrow for convenience (i know it's not super popular here to escrow) so the credits won't be an issue for me given they will be applied to prepaids. I'm also planning on shopping for title so I hope to haggle Better into an even larger credit as I've seen several people present cheaper title options and Better is quick to offer additional credit to keep using theirs.
Perfect. I am in the camp of not desiring escrow. However, if the loan package otherwise had excessive credits, I would do an escrow with the explicit plan to request its waiver after closure. Similar to getting your 401k employer match, it makes no sense to ignore that source of money simply b/c you don't like the 401k options/an escrow account. :)
invstar
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by invstar »

Hi tuck,

My current loan rate is 2.5 (15 year) and I am 4 years into it with around 285k left. I got 2.25% rate from better.com but their closing cost is too high (around 12k). What was your closing cost. Thanks.
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:07 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:31 pm
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Congrats! That is a phenomenal offer!! What state and loan amount is that for?
$325k loan, 75% LTV, Illinois. Used this thread and slickdeals to learn more and monitor others successes. Was mostly a game of getting lenders to compete and waiting for prime market conditions. Started Thursday morning after Wednesday fed announcement. Honestly don't even think this is the bottom yet, but happy to take these rates for now. Zillow used to be my go-to but became useless in the current environment. Rate sheets are moving like crazy and you need to get the lender/broker on the line and talk out what you want vs. what they've been seeing on their end. Honestly I expect rates to be as competitive as ever this week minus a few swings. So good luck to everyone!

note to everyone, the rates you see are not the rates you'll be quoted. LenderFi offered me a no-cost 2.625% 30-year (A+B+C = $1200 / Credit = $1300). Their site didn't show anything decent below 3% before applying. Similar deals for AimLoan and other internet brokers. Better refused to match but I wen't back to them and simply asked them to give me their best offer and I'd probably take it because of AMEX credit.

literally shocked that you can lock a no-cost 2.25% 15-year right now. Mind blowing. And yet... I can't help but think that someone will snag a no-cost 2% in the not too distant future.
tuck3979
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tuck3979 »

invstar wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:44 pm Hi tuck,

My current loan rate is 2.5 (15 year) and I am 4 years into it with around 285k left. I got 2.25% rate from better.com but their closing cost is too high (around 12k). What was your closing cost. Thanks.
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:07 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:31 pm
tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Congrats! That is a phenomenal offer!! What state and loan amount is that for?
$325k loan, 75% LTV, Illinois. Used this thread and slickdeals to learn more and monitor others successes. Was mostly a game of getting lenders to compete and waiting for prime market conditions. Started Thursday morning after Wednesday fed announcement. Honestly don't even think this is the bottom yet, but happy to take these rates for now. Zillow used to be my go-to but became useless in the current environment. Rate sheets are moving like crazy and you need to get the lender/broker on the line and talk out what you want vs. what they've been seeing on their end. Honestly I expect rates to be as competitive as ever this week minus a few swings. So good luck to everyone!

note to everyone, the rates you see are not the rates you'll be quoted. LenderFi offered me a no-cost 2.625% 30-year (A+B+C = $1200 / Credit = $1300). Their site didn't show anything decent below 3% before applying. Similar deals for AimLoan and other internet brokers. Better refused to match but I wen't back to them and simply asked them to give me their best offer and I'd probably take it because of AMEX credit.

literally shocked that you can lock a no-cost 2.25% 15-year right now. Mind blowing. And yet... I can't help but think that someone will snag a no-cost 2% in the not too distant future.
15 year at 2.25%
A+B+C+E = $1608 (estimate only, you can shop down those costs with a little extra effort if you're willing)
credit = $2873

they are literally paying you to take a 2.25% rate (plus AMEX too).
tahoeatx16
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tahoeatx16 »

Has anyone refinanced a single-family investment property recently? I'm considering a cash-out refinance on one, and curious what good rate/closing costs look like. All these no-cost, refinances I'm reading about so like they're out of reach for an investment property.
tahoeatx16
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by tahoeatx16 »

Crazy_Aussie wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 am Texas peeps shopping for competitive quotes : AHC Lending just increased their lender credits to $2700+ from previous $1500+ .
Some of the other closing costs increased slightly, but overall it is $1000 improvement for me.

I emailed that quote to myself from their public website, so I'll be sending it to BETTER to try to get them to match again.
I've been checking each day, and I've seen their quotes vary slightly but nothing this dramatic before.
So not sure how long this offer would be available.
But I will keep checking, and send the best quote thru to BETTER for 1 last match.
Thanks for the heads up. What rate did you see tied to the higher credits?
hotelcalifornia
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by hotelcalifornia »

Question for those who refinanced using Better and the Amex offer:
I applied through the Amex offer link and made sure the offer was "tagged" on my refinance.
At closing what info from your amex card is required? Do you put in your full card number somewhere and does it require any further verification like ID or photo?

Thanks for any info!
pindevil
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by pindevil »

tahoeatx16 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:11 pm Has anyone refinanced a single-family investment property recently? I'm considering a cash-out refinance on one, and curious what good rate/closing costs look like. All these no-cost, refinances I'm reading about so like they're out of reach for an investment property.
I wonder if the Better.com does price guarantee with investment property and would the AMEX offer apply?
as9
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by as9 »

Finally closed on my LenderFi refinance. Very happy about this!

The notary that came to the house said she's never been so busy, but she said only about half are standard refinances. A large portion has been HELOCs to cover a shortfall while one person is out of work (and the other is still working so they can still qualify). Yikes.
jimmy2040
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jimmy2040 »

My friend is going through a no fee refi and the rate lock expires in 2 weeks.

If they don't close before the rate close expires, would she be liable for any of the fees? e.g appraisal fees?

Thanks.
mt2k
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mt2k »

jimmy2040 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:27 pm My friend is going through a no fee refi and the rate lock expires in 2 weeks.

If they don't close before the rate close expires, would she be liable for any of the fees? e.g appraisal fees?

Thanks.
In general, if you have already paid for appraisal fee or any other fee, chances of getting a refund is very slim. If you have not paid anything yet, you can just inform(courtsey) the lender to withdraw your application.
as9
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by as9 »

jimmy2040 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:27 pm My friend is going through a no fee refi and the rate lock expires in 2 weeks.

If they don't close before the rate close expires, would she be liable for any of the fees? e.g appraisal fees?

Thanks.
This may vary by lender, but we went about seven weeks beyond the rate lock date and it wasn't an issue. Assuming your friend still wants to close at this rate I'd suggest they start asking about it now to put some pressure on and find out what happens if the process goes past the lock date.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

hotelcalifornia wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:54 am Question for those who refinanced using Better and the Amex offer:
I applied through the Amex offer link and made sure the offer was "tagged" on my refinance.
At closing what info from your amex card is required? Do you put in your full card number somewhere and does it require any further verification like ID or photo?

Thanks for any info!
Last 5 digits of your Amex card will be requested as a task item around when you confirm closing date after the initial closing disclosure.

Also, Better uses name and email with those 5 digits to match up the offer for payout. So it’s best to make sure Better is using the same email as Amex. You can change this in your portal if necessary.
Jags4186
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
iamlucky13
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by iamlucky13 »

tuck3979 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:31 pm these rates are starting to get insane. Started at a UWM broker, had LenderFi beat them, brought it to Better and here I am. +2500 AMEX is the icing.

https://imgur.com/a/DPfMq1y
Wow...I'm just getting started, and apparently I need to spend some time reading back through this thread.

The most popular credit union in my area is offering 3.5% on a 15 year. The credit union I use is offering 2.875%, similar to some of the big banks. Bankrate.com doesn't show anything better.

But if there's 2.25% offers available with kickbacks that reduce the closing costs, I definitely need to ramp up my research.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
Emphasis mine. Please explain your math here / how you come up to 6 years to recoup cost.
Hoosier CPA
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Hoosier CPA »

I currently have a refi in motion with my existing local lender. Cost is about $300. The app fee is $250 (which I paid), and the lender credit covers all but about $50 of the rest. Rate is 3.0% on a 20. That is about how many years I have left on my existing 3.5% loan.

Better.com says they will match the rate, beat the costs and give me the $2,500 Amex credit. I'm dragging my feet because I've had loans with this local lender for the past 12 years or so (on 2 different houses), they continue to service the loans, I know who I'm dealing with, etc. Is it crazy to stick with the existing lender for those reasons and pass up the $2,500? I've heard better.com will end up selling the loan and the servicing, and I don't know who I'd deal with after that (or if that even matters). Better's offer expires at the end of the day today, although all that means is I'd need to lock in the rate (no charge for that).

Either way I'd have a nearly no cost refi, which is what I was seeking and the same rate. The difference would be the $2,500 Amex credit, and dealing with an unknown (to me) lender.
mt2k
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mt2k »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
How much is the amount in section D (=A+B+C) in the disclosure. That is the amount you are paying in closing fee. Others are the prepaid & escrow..
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Hoosier CPA wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:57 pm Better.com says they will match the rate, beat the costs and give me the $2,500 Amex credit. I'm dragging my feet because ... this local lender ... continue to service the loans, ... Is it crazy to stick with the existing lender for those reasons and pass up the $2,500? I've heard better.com will end up selling the loan and the servicing, and I don't know who I'd deal with after that...

Either way I'd have a nearly no cost refi, which is what I was seeking and the same rate. The difference would be the $2,500 Amex credit, and dealing with an unknown (to me) lender.
Personally, I think having different servicers and the mortgage moving around isn’t that big a deal. But it is something vs. “set it and forget it”. Also, I don’t have an escrow, so there is nothing to do other than send a monthly check.

Personally, I’d take the $2,500. But ultimately, you should do something where you won’t have trouble sleeping at night.
Gadget
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Gadget »

BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:07 pm
Hoosier CPA wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:57 pm Better.com says they will match the rate, beat the costs and give me the $2,500 Amex credit. I'm dragging my feet because ... this local lender ... continue to service the loans, ... Is it crazy to stick with the existing lender for those reasons and pass up the $2,500? I've heard better.com will end up selling the loan and the servicing, and I don't know who I'd deal with after that...

Either way I'd have a nearly no cost refi, which is what I was seeking and the same rate. The difference would be the $2,500 Amex credit, and dealing with an unknown (to me) lender.
Personally, I think having different servicers and the mortgage moving around isn’t that big a deal. But it is something vs. “set it and forget it”. Also, I don’t have an escrow, so there is nothing to do other than send a monthly check.

Personally, I’d take the $2,500. But ultimately, you should do something where you won’t have trouble sleeping at night.
Better would only match? Not beat the offer by $1k? For me, they beat my best offer by $1k, and the $2500 AMEX credit was just gravy.
Hoosier CPA
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Hoosier CPA »

Gadget wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:24 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:07 pm
Hoosier CPA wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:57 pm Better.com says they will match the rate, beat the costs and give me the $2,500 Amex credit. I'm dragging my feet because ... this local lender ... continue to service the loans, ... Is it crazy to stick with the existing lender for those reasons and pass up the $2,500? I've heard better.com will end up selling the loan and the servicing, and I don't know who I'd deal with after that...

Either way I'd have a nearly no cost refi, which is what I was seeking and the same rate. The difference would be the $2,500 Amex credit, and dealing with an unknown (to me) lender.
Personally, I think having different servicers and the mortgage moving around isn’t that big a deal. But it is something vs. “set it and forget it”. Also, I don’t have an escrow, so there is nothing to do other than send a monthly check.

Personally, I’d take the $2,500. But ultimately, you should do something where you won’t have trouble sleeping at night.
Better would only match? Not beat the offer by $1k? For me, they beat my best offer by $1k, and the $2500 AMEX credit was just gravy.
Yes, they'd beat it by $1000, which is really $750 since I already spent the $250 with the existing lender.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
Emphasis mine. Please explain your math here / how you come up to 6 years to recoup cost.
Not 6 years to recoup cost of refinance -- about 6 years to recoup the cost between the different options. Also I mixed up the payments, fixed and bolded above.

3.125% version: $3492+2500 = $5991. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $5991 - $4451 = $1540 in my pocket

3% version: $2302 + $2500 = $4802. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $4802 - $4451 = $351 in my pocket. ($1540-351)/($1300-$1280) = 60 months

2.875% version: $769 + 2500 = $3269. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $3269 - $4451 = -$1182 out of my pocket. (351+1182)/(1280-1259) = 73 months vs. 3%. (1540+1182)/(1300-1259) = 66 months vs the 3.125% version.
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anon_investor
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:34 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
Emphasis mine. Please explain your math here / how you come up to 6 years to recoup cost.
Not 6 years to recoup cost of refinance -- about 6 years to recoup the cost between the different options. Also I mixed up the payments, fixed and bolded above.

3.125% version: $3492+2500 = $5991. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $5991 - $4451 = $1540 in my pocket

3% version: $2302 + $2500 = $4802. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $4802 - $4451 = $351 in my pocket. ($1540-351)/($1300-$1280) = 60 months

2.875% version: $769 + 2500 = $3269. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $3269 - $4451 = -$1182 out of my pocket. (351+1182)/(1280-1259) = 73 months vs. 3%. (1540+1182)/(1300-1259) = 66 months vs the 3.125% version.
How long do you plan to live in your house? If you plan to live there longer than the break even then go with the lower rate. When I did my refi, I ended up going with the large credit, since it was a 5 year breakeven for the lower interest rate and I was not sure I would still be in the same house in 5 years (might relocate for work, etc.; have already done that twice within the last 7 years).
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

mt2k wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:00 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
How much is the amount in section D (=A+B+C) in the disclosure. That is the amount you are paying in closing fee. Others are the prepaid & escrow..
ABC are all $2165. I'm looking at this from credit vs payback.

$3492 (3.125% lender credit) - $769 (2.875% lender credit) = $2723. $2723/$41 = 66 months
$2302 (3% lender credit) - $769 (2.875% lender credit) = $1533. $1533/$21 = 73 months
$3492 (3.125% lender credit) - $2302 (3% lender credit) = $1190. $1190/$20 = 60 months
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:34 pm Not 6 years to recoup cost of refinance -- about 6 years to recoup the cost between the different options. Also I mixed up the payments, fixed and bolded above.

3.125% version: $3492+2500 = $5991. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $5991 - $4451 = $1540 in my pocket

3% version: $2302 + $2500 = $4802. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $4802 - $4451 = $351 in my pocket. ($1540-351)/($1300-$1280) = 60 months

2.875% version: $769 + 2500 = $3269. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $3269 - $4451 = -$1182 out of my pocket. (351+1182)/(1280-1259) = 73 months vs. 3%. (1540+1182)/(1300-1259) = 66 months vs the 3.125% version.
Pages ago I asked about the points and credits offered to me and my default thought was to consider things after any credits. Others chimed in confirming that thought.

After that, I went with my usual “no cost (to me)” option. So while I had 2.875% with $1k in my pocket, I chose 2.625% with $0 in my pocket. When comparing other options, I didn’t look at time between the loan options, but rather, value. Any higher 1/8 rate increases provided less than $500 more credit and any lower 1/8 rate decreases cost more than $500 ($850 and then $1,350 more in my case).

So for your options, the 3% looks like what I would choose if you go with Better. However, I would remove prepaids from consideration too, so the 2.875% may win as it is likely less than $1k out of pocket then.
1andDone
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 1andDone »

mt2k wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:00 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
How much is the amount in section D (=A+B+C) in the disclosure. That is the amount you are paying in closing fee. Others are the prepaid & escrow..
In my state we also have transfer taxes and recording fees (listed in section E). So, I would also take those into account when figuring out the total closing costs (excluding prepaids and escrow).
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:45 pm
mt2k wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:00 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
How much is the amount in section D (=A+B+C) in the disclosure. That is the amount you are paying in closing fee. Others are the prepaid & escrow..
ABC are all $2165. I'm looking at this from credit vs payback.

$3492 (3.125% lender credit) - $769 (2.875% lender credit) = $2723. $2723/$41 = 66 months
$2302 (3% lender credit) - $769 (2.875% lender credit) = $1533. $1533/$21 = 73 months
$3492 (3.125% lender credit) - $2302 (3% lender credit) = $1190. $1190/$20 = 60 months
It boils down to your plan for keeping the mortgage. Lower rate would eventually cost your less interest for more cash up front at closing and vice versa. If you are willing to “bet” on doing another refi due to rates continuing to go lower, then go with lower cost at closing. If you willing to bet rates can’t go lower and you plan to be in the house long term, go with lower rate.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

1andDone wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:50 pm
mt2k wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:00 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
How much is the amount in section D (=A+B+C) in the disclosure. That is the amount you are paying in closing fee. Others are the prepaid & escrow..
In my state we also have transfer taxes and recording fees (listed in section E). So, I would also take those into account when figuring out the total closing costs (excluding prepaids and escrow).
Those fees would usually be identical regardless of interest rate of loan as the fees would be based on loan amount or pages required to record and/or document type.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:55 pmThose fees would usually be identical regardless of interest rate of loan as the fees would be based on loan amount or pages required to record and/or document type.
Yes, but they are a cost you wouldn’t pay with keeping your existing mortgage and thus, are a cost of refinancing. In my book, closing costs = A + B + C + E + H - credits in J.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:57 pm
seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:55 pmThose fees would usually be identical regardless of interest rate of loan as the fees would be based on loan amount or pages required to record and/or document type.
Yes, but they are a cost you wouldn’t pay with keeping your existing mortgage and thus, are a cost of refinancing. In my book, closing costs = A + B + C + E + H - credits in J.
I just read in the context that Jags4186 was asking which option to take from better not whether Jags4186 should refinance or not. :)
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:05 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:57 pm
seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:55 pmThose fees would usually be identical regardless of interest rate of loan as the fees would be based on loan amount or pages required to record and/or document type.
Yes, but they are a cost you wouldn’t pay with keeping your existing mortgage and thus, are a cost of refinancing. In my book, closing costs = A + B + C + E + H - credits in J.
I just read in the context that Jags4186 was asking which option to take from better not whether Jags4186 should refinance or not. :)
Correct. I am 100% refinancing from my 3.625% loan. I just wasn't sure where to go. I decided to go with the 3.125% loan as there may be additional offers from American Express or others in the future that I could take advantage of. Additionally, since rates are going to be low for the relative near to mid term there could be opportunities to refinance again below 3.125%.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:05 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:57 pm
seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:55 pmThose fees would usually be identical regardless of interest rate of loan as the fees would be based on loan amount or pages required to record and/or document type.
Yes, but they are a cost you wouldn’t pay with keeping your existing mortgage and thus, are a cost of refinancing. In my book, closing costs = A + B + C + E + H - credits in J.
I just read in the context that Jags4186 was asking which option to take from better not whether Jags4186 should refinance or not. :)
Right. For the purposes of Jags calculations between which loan to take, it didn’t matter as long as the costs (other than points/credits) were the same between the loans. It only matters in the decision whether to refi at all, and should be considered a cost when costs matter in the decision-making.
Hoosier CPA
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Hoosier CPA »

BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:07 pm
Hoosier CPA wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:57 pm Better.com says they will match the rate, beat the costs and give me the $2,500 Amex credit. I'm dragging my feet because ... this local lender ... continue to service the loans, ... Is it crazy to stick with the existing lender for those reasons and pass up the $2,500? I've heard better.com will end up selling the loan and the servicing, and I don't know who I'd deal with after that...

Either way I'd have a nearly no cost refi, which is what I was seeking and the same rate. The difference would be the $2,500 Amex credit, and dealing with an unknown (to me) lender.
Personally, I think having different servicers and the mortgage moving around isn’t that big a deal. But it is something vs. “set it and forget it”. Also, I don’t have an escrow, so there is nothing to do other than send a monthly check.

Personally, I’d take the $2,500. But ultimately, you should do something where you won’t have trouble sleeping at night.
Thanks. I completed the Better application today to lock the rate - will still need to figure out what to do. I think I'll have a hard time passing up the $2,500 credit plus the negative closing costs, but I do value a local lender.
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Post by BrandonBogle »

Hoosier CPA wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:30 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:07 pm
Hoosier CPA wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:57 pm Better.com says they will match the rate, beat the costs and give me the $2,500 Amex credit. I'm dragging my feet because ... this local lender ... continue to service the loans, ... Is it crazy to stick with the existing lender for those reasons and pass up the $2,500? I've heard better.com will end up selling the loan and the servicing, and I don't know who I'd deal with after that...

Either way I'd have a nearly no cost refi, which is what I was seeking and the same rate. The difference would be the $2,500 Amex credit, and dealing with an unknown (to me) lender.
Personally, I think having different servicers and the mortgage moving around isn’t that big a deal. But it is something vs. “set it and forget it”. Also, I don’t have an escrow, so there is nothing to do other than send a monthly check.

Personally, I’d take the $2,500. But ultimately, you should do something where you won’t have trouble sleeping at night.
Thanks. I completed the Better application today to lock the rate - will still need to figure out what to do. I think I'll have a hard time passing up the $2,500 credit plus the negative closing costs, but I do value a local lender.
Just as a reference point, I closed with Better on 5/13 and funded 5/18. Around 5/27 I could see my account on The Money Source. As of 6/13, while I can still see my loan at TMS, I can see my loan at Wells Fargo and the MERS system shows WF as the servicer and investor of my loan. My first payment isn't until 7/1. I had the option to pay online for either of them, and ironically, had my WF checking account already set up to pay TMS monthly. I'll be changing that later this week once my paperwork for the loan transfer comes in (I haven't received official notice yet - I just happen to already have a WF account for it to show up automatically).
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:34 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:14 pm Okay so I went to Better and got the following offers:

3.125% 30yr fixed with $3,492 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1300 payment
3.000% 30yr fixed with $2,302 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1280 payment
2.875% 30yr fixed with $769 in credits and $2500 AMEX credit $1259 payment

No matter how you slice it, it takes about 6 years to recoup the extra money from the fee upfront.

Need to lock in by end of day, any thoughts?
Emphasis mine. Please explain your math here / how you come up to 6 years to recoup cost.
Not 6 years to recoup cost of refinance -- about 6 years to recoup the cost between the different options. Also I mixed up the payments, fixed and bolded above.

3.125% version: $3492+2500 = $5991. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $5991 - $4451 = $1540 in my pocket

3% version: $2302 + $2500 = $4802. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $4802 - $4451 = $351 in my pocket. ($1540-351)/($1300-$1280) = 60 months

2.875% version: $769 + 2500 = $3269. Closing costs and prepaids = $4451. $3269 - $4451 = -$1182 out of my pocket. (351+1182)/(1280-1259) = 73 months vs. 3%. (1540+1182)/(1300-1259) = 66 months vs the 3.125% version.
These payback calcs are good high level estimates, but not completely accurate. Some other things to consider. 1) The lower payment associated with the lower interest rate means you'll have more money every month. Assuming that is invested somehow, you should account for some return on the incremental cash. 2) The amortization (principal paydown) on the lower rate is higher since less of your money is going to pay interest. After 5 years the remaining balance on the 3.125% loan is $270,442, on the 3% loan it's $269,831, on the 2.875% loan it's $269,212. So you'll have $1,230 more equity in the 2.875% scenario than the 3.125% scenario.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Crazy_Aussie »

tahoeatx16 wrote: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:00 pm
Crazy_Aussie wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 am Texas peeps shopping for competitive quotes : AHC Lending just increased their lender credits to $2700+ from previous $1500+ .
Some of the other closing costs increased slightly, but overall it is $1000 improvement for me.

I emailed that quote to myself from their public website, so I'll be sending it to BETTER to try to get them to match again.
I've been checking each day, and I've seen their quotes vary slightly but nothing this dramatic before.
So not sure how long this offer would be available.
But I will keep checking, and send the best quote thru to BETTER for 1 last match.
Thanks for the heads up. What rate did you see tied to the higher credits?
That was for the 2.875% 30yr fixed rate.
See my previous post a few pages earlier in this thread for the complete lists of closing costs I was offered originally.

If you are looking for rates in Texas, then it really only takes a couple minutes on www.AHCLending.com to get their full quote with all the closing costs and credits etc broken down in detail.
You don't even have to give them a name or email to get to those details , just close the pop-up window that asks for name/email.
Use the 'show details' link to expand out each of the rate quotes it presents, then click on the 'Closing Costs' tab.

If you see a good deal, then you can email that rate quote to yourself at which point you would add your name and it looks like a Loan Estimate which Better will try to match.

My quotes improved when my LTV improved to 60% from above 60%, after we had a more accurate property value estimate.

I just checked again today, and for me the credits have dropped back to $2300+.
nic3456
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nic3456 »

In OH - best rate I've been able to find has been Lenderfi - 3% with $170 out of pocket (excluding prepaids). I sent them an email for their best offer after I applied - was able to get Better to match that with another $1,000 savings & AMEX $2500. Pretty pleased at the moment
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

Just so I understand correctly.

for example: 2.99% for 30 years. True no cost. No escrow.
If I bring this to Better.com and they beat the offer by +$1000 plus Amex ($2500)
Since it's a No cost Refi. Does that mean better will send me a check of $1000? then I get $2500 in statement credit to my AMEX card?
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Post by BrandonBogle »

Familyman2012 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:16 am Just so I understand correctly.

for example: 2.99% for 30 years. True no cost. No escrow.
If I bring this to Better.com and they beat the offer by +$1000 plus Amex ($2500)
Since it's a No cost Refi. Does that mean better will send me a check of $1000? then I get $2500 in statement credit to my AMEX card?
If they beat it, you will have a $1,000 credit at closing that applies to prepaid interest from closing to the next month (Section F) and a check for the rest. However, they do not always beat it. Often/majority of the time yes, but not always. In my case, they didn’t event match it, but got within $150 of the CU I had them competing with. But all that was before the Amex credit, so it was still worth going with them for me.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by dsmil »

Familyman2012 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:16 am Just so I understand correctly.

for example: 2.99% for 30 years. True no cost. No escrow.
If I bring this to Better.com and they beat the offer by +$1000 plus Amex ($2500)
Since it's a No cost Refi. Does that mean better will send me a check of $1000? then I get $2500 in statement credit to my AMEX card?
How are you defining no cost? Usually we take that as lender credits covering title/taxes/fees. Aside from prepaids/escrows (which you don't have), what about prepaid interest on the new mortgage? In the end, if your new mortgage is greater than the sum of your loan payoff + closing costs - lender credits, than yes you'll get money from Better.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by seawolf21 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:29 am
Familyman2012 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:16 am Just so I understand correctly.

for example: 2.99% for 30 years. True no cost. No escrow.
If I bring this to Better.com and they beat the offer by +$1000 plus Amex ($2500)
Since it's a No cost Refi. Does that mean better will send me a check of $1000? then I get $2500 in statement credit to my AMEX card?
If they beat it, you will have a $1,000 credit at closing that applies to prepaid interest from closing to the next month (Section F) and a check for the rest. However, they do not always beat it. Often/majority of the time yes, but not always. In my case, they didn’t event match it, but got within $150 of the CU I had them competing with. But all that was before the Amex credit, so it was still worth going with them for me.
dsmil wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:29 am
Familyman2012 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:16 am Just so I understand correctly.

for example: 2.99% for 30 years. True no cost. No escrow.
If I bring this to Better.com and they beat the offer by +$1000 plus Amex ($2500)
Since it's a No cost Refi. Does that mean better will send me a check of $1000? then I get $2500 in statement credit to my AMEX card?
How are you defining no cost? Usually we take that as lender credits covering title/taxes/fees. Aside from prepaids/escrows (which you don't have), what about prepaid interest on the new mortgage? In the end, if your new mortgage is greater than the sum of your loan payoff + closing costs - lender credits, than yes you'll get money from Better.
I don’t think they will send you a check, they will reduce principal of new loan if lender credit exceeds closing cost and I believe limit on principal reduction/curtailment is $2k. Anything in excess of that would be forfeited.
Last edited by seawolf21 on Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Familyman2012
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

Thanks for replying to both of you.

I define a true no cost as settling with a slightly higher rate so nothing comes out of my pocket and also meaning NOT rolling in closing cost into the new loan.
The lender credit will cover ALL cost except prepaids/escrow.

Also, Is the Amex credit a statement credit? If so, if I have a zero balance since I pay my credit card every month. Would they send me a check also if I request? I'm sure this question has been answered. I've read a lot of the pages on this thread but my eyes feel crossed and my brain is scrambled trying to process all.
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