Refinance Mega Thread

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cb474
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

mbasherp wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:20 am
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:09 am
Are you saying you filled out the entire online application and uploaded all the documents and they never sent you a loan estimate. A friend of mine called them a couple weeks ago, got a rate quote over the phone, then filled out the online application and provided documents, and got a loan estimate with a locked rate three days later. But since then he's heard nothing.

My experience with Watermark, having talked to several different loan officers, is that they are very slow to respond, beyond an initial inquiry. They seem to be extremely busy and backlogged right now. So maybe you need to bug them? Maybe just call back the 800 number and complain that they loan officer is not getting back to you?

The first loan officer I spoke to at Watermark a couple weeks ago didn't say anything about bogleheads being an issue, when I mentioned them. But then after a couple calls he stopped responding to me. Then a different loan officer texted me out of the blue, so I called her. She didn't get back to me for a week and then told me how they are restricting boglhead people. So it seems only recently that they decided bogleheads is bad. So that may not be the reason you've heard nothing. It may just be because they are so overloaded.
Yes, I filled out everything and uploaded everything and was never sent a loan estimate. The rep was very responsive initially, and I said I look forward to getting the loan estimate which details exactly what we discussed. He said that comes from a different department. That was almost two weeks ago.

At this point, I would rather take my no cost, no appraisal 2.875% Lenderfi loan which I know will close and keep that relationship for the future than gamble on Watermark with a $500 2.625% loan (with appraisal) when I’m not sure they’re good for it.

$196k balance, which is why I wasn’t offered some of the rock bottom rates shown in this thread.
Wow, that's pretty annoying that you did the whole loan application, with documents, and got no response. I know they're back logged, but still. I wonder if it fell through the cracks somehow and you need to remind them? Or if it's just a sign of Watermark being totally overwhelmed and/or not having their act together. It does not inspire confidence about their ability to close on time.
cb474
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm
keystone wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:05 am This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.
Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
privateer79
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by privateer79 »

Anonymous Coward wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:08 pm For those of you who did the AmEx offer with Better.com, how long does it take for the statement credit to hit?
On paper it says 8-10 weeks after it closes. In my case it hit 3 weeks after close with a statement credit backdated to the closing date. I imagine that would be typical performance, but they don't want you to call and bother them until after 8-10 weeks in case there are delays.
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anon_investor
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm
keystone wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:05 am This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.
Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
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mags
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mags »

joelly wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:06 pm
mags wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:24 pm I just closed on a Lender Fi 30 year fixed 2.75% with $400 closing costs.
Wow congratulations!

We are looking for refinance too. How did you get such low interest rate? Does it depend on loan-to-value ratio? I hope you don’t mind me asking.
Loan is (conforming) 540k on 1.2M house. 815 credit score.
Monsterflockster
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Monsterflockster »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:50 am
cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm
keystone wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:05 am This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.
Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
I think bigleheads can’t help themselves. It a badge of honor to them. But then they only use them for a good quote to leverage another lender it burns bridges. Not sure it’s worth it to me to chase a few bucks but to some it is I guess.
topcatin
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by topcatin »

Lenderfi LO: How did you hear about us?
Me: found out online
End of conversation...there is no need to give details.

In the end after locking the LO said "Tell your friends about us" :)
dcw213
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by dcw213 »

I’m sorry if this has been posted but I wanted to pass along some significant industry news. A few days ago, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac announced a 0.50% loan level pricing adjustment on all refinance loans delivered beginning in September. The lender and mortgage banking community is up in arms about it, as it is a directive from the FHFA (regulator and conservator) to take a piece of the gain on sale profits that lenders are realizing during this refinance frenzy. Unknown what the impact will be but this may be an indication that rates may come off the bottom and slow downward trend that we have been seeing.

Just raising some awareness of this. Of course the low rate opportunities can always end at any point but it does seem there is some government intervention which may impact the booming refi wave and rate reductions that have been occurring over the last year. As always, I would support pulling the trigger if you want to refi and it makes sense for you.
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anon_investor
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

topcatin wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:26 pm Lenderfi LO: How did you hear about us?
Me: found out online
End of conversation...there is no need to give details.

In the end after locking the LO said "Tell your friends about us" :)
Haha they did not ask how I found them when I did my refi with LenderFi last month. But the LO did ask that I only lock if I was done shopping around. Wonder if BH is now a scarlet letter among lenders...
Shikoku
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Shikoku »

Monsterflockster wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:39 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:50 am
cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
I think bigleheads can’t help themselves. It a badge of honor to them. But then they only use them for a good quote to leverage another lender it burns bridges. Not sure it’s worth it to me to chase a few bucks but to some it is I guess.
Using one LE as a leverage to get another LE appears normal with some lenders such as Better. It is highly likely that anyone who is getting a competitive loan from Better probably using leverage of another LE irrespective of they are Bogleheads or not. So if Bogleheads are burning bridges, non-Bogleheads are also doing the same!
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
topcatin
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by topcatin »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:46 pm
topcatin wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:26 pm Lenderfi LO: How did you hear about us?
Me: found out online
End of conversation...there is no need to give details.

In the end after locking the LO said "Tell your friends about us" :)
Haha they did not ask how I found them when I did my refi with LenderFi last month. But the LO did ask that I only lock if I was done shopping around. Wonder if BH is now a scarlet letter among lenders...
Same ..he wanted me to lock only if I was ready and done shopping. Glad I locked, next day they pretty much closed the site for new apps.
TroutMD
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by TroutMD »

I got denied for the first time ever on a home loan/refinance.

I am a physician and my income is 100% 1099. I bought a home in December in a new town, had no issue getting financed and paid ~35% down on it, was moving and changing jobs.

Rate is 3.5 15 year. Found a 2.3% 15 year at a bank behind me, applied, pre approved, etc. Our credit score is 800s.

They denied us because of 'significant change in income course for less than a year'. Despite a trajectory of nearly a decade of mid 6 figure incomes, and more than enough in my savings to pay the house off, and times over in investments to pay it off.

Needless to say, I was perplexed. Long talk with the bank president who blames lending rules.

We moved on, didn't change anything. I have family members that make 10% of what we do buying houses at twice+ their incomes who barely pay their electric bills and have zero issues getting financing.
exarkun
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by exarkun »

Monsterflockster wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:39 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:50 am
cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm

Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
I think bigleheads can’t help themselves. It a badge of honor to them. But then they only use them for a good quote to leverage another lender it burns bridges. Not sure it’s worth it to me to chase a few bucks but to some it is I guess.
It's quite a bit more than "a few bucks" and in the end it is just the cost of the lenders doing business. They know it and the loan applicants should know it. Unfortunately, in many cases loan applicants do not know you can shop around like this.
Goal33
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Goal33 »

TroutMD wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:55 pm I got denied for the first time ever on a home loan/refinance.

I am a physician and my income is 100% 1099. I bought a home in December in a new town, had no issue getting financed and paid ~35% down on it, was moving and changing jobs.

Rate is 3.5 15 year. Found a 2.3% 15 year at a bank behind me, applied, pre approved, etc. Our credit score is 800s.

They denied us because of 'significant change in income course for less than a year'. Despite a trajectory of nearly a decade of mid 6 figure incomes, and more than enough in my savings to pay the house off, and times over in investments to pay it off.

Needless to say, I was perplexed. Long talk with the bank president who blames lending rules.

We moved on, didn't change anything. I have family members that make 10% of what we do buying houses at twice+ their incomes who barely pay their electric bills and have zero issues getting financing.
what bank is this? I've seen that some places don't even want to deal with a 1099er
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Goal33 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:02 pm
TroutMD wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:55 pm I got denied for the first time ever on a home loan/refinance.

I am a physician and my income is 100% 1099. I bought a home in December in a new town, had no issue getting financed and paid ~35% down on it, was moving and changing jobs.

Rate is 3.5 15 year. Found a 2.3% 15 year at a bank behind me, applied, pre approved, etc. Our credit score is 800s.

They denied us because of 'significant change in income course for less than a year'. Despite a trajectory of nearly a decade of mid 6 figure incomes, and more than enough in my savings to pay the house off, and times over in investments to pay it off.

Needless to say, I was perplexed. Long talk with the bank president who blames lending rules.

We moved on, didn't change anything. I have family members that make 10% of what we do buying houses at twice+ their incomes who barely pay their electric bills and have zero issues getting financing.
what bank is this? I've seen that some places don't even want to deal with a 1099er
Yeah, it sucks. Some lenders’ underwriters just don’t want to deal with 1099 income right now. Thankfully, others will. TroutMD hopefully finds another lender that wouldn’t shy away from 1099 income right now (and provides competitive offers).
Familyman2012
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

Still haven’t heard back from WM.
Initial offer was 2.5 no cost no escrow 30 years.
After the 0.5 news came out.
Haven’t heard from my LO after multiple attempts.

Decided to talk to owning.com

The best he can do is 2.625 30years $900. No escrow.

I currently am at 2.875.
It’s will save me around $40/month.
Break even is about 23 months. We definitely plan to be here for years to come.

Not sure what I should do especially with all these uncertainties now.
I’m typically in the mind set of no cost. But I’m just confuse on what to do now.
Any advice?
cb474
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:50 am
cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm
keystone wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:05 am This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.
Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
I guess so. I think I told them where I heard about them when they asked, because it never occured to me that they would decide Bogleheads people are bad or were doing anything unusual.

It's pretty crazy that they refuse to provide a locked loan estimate, without a full application and all documents provided, and then complain about the extra work for their underwriting team, when people walk away. They did that too themselves, because of what is essentially an aggressive sales tactic. Get people to do the full application, with documents, in exchange for a lock, so that they feel invested in that their loan with Watermark, and can't be bothered to shop around elsewhere. If they just provided loan estimates with basic information and locked the rate, when people requested, then people could meaningfully comparison shop for other loans (since a loan estimate with an unlocked rate is essentially just a promise that could change at any minute and often does).

Other lenders are not so rigid and aggressive about this. Other lenders, when they find out that you have also applied elsewhere, try to compete, as amply evidenced in this thread. My mortgage broker didn't think it was at all weird that I would shop around or even apply with someone else at the same time. Both Loan Depot and Better, when I told them I was withdrawing my application, because I was going with someone else, immediately tried to negotiate. The person at Better seemed perfectly chipper about it and not all weird and aggressive.
cb474
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

Monsterflockster wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:39 am
anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:50 am
cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm

Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
I think bigleheads can’t help themselves. It a badge of honor to them. But then they only use them for a good quote to leverage another lender it burns bridges. Not sure it’s worth it to me to chase a few bucks but to some it is I guess.
I think most places ask how you heard about them, to keep track for marketing purposes. So generally there is nothing wrong with revealing this information. I don't think Watermark was asking this to begin with, because they were suspicious and looking out for "difficult" clients. But in the process they seem to have figured out that lately Bogleheads people are more likely to walk. Rather than change their aggressive policy on locking a rate, they are just demanding that Bogleheads people do unreasonable if not impossible things (like getting a letter of cancellation from any lender they already applied with).

On the one hand, this leaves me feeling like Watermark is just a pain place to deal with. On the other hand, most lenders I talked to, at least the intial loan officers, are much like car salespeople and say all kinds of crazy and bogus things.
ChiKid24
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

Familyman2012 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:06 pm Still haven’t heard back from WM.
Initial offer was 2.5 no cost no escrow 30 years.
After the 0.5 news came out.
Haven’t heard from my LO after multiple attempts.

Decided to talk to owning.com

The best he can do is 2.625 30years $900. No escrow.

I currently am at 2.875.
It’s will save me around $40/month.
Break even is about 23 months. We definitely plan to be here for years to come.

Not sure what I should do especially with all these uncertainties now.
I’m typically in the mind set of no cost. But I’m just confuse on what to do now.
Any advice?
I'd pass on anything out of pocket at this time. While you say you plan to be in the house so would likely hit your 23 month payback, what if in two months this 0.5 fee gets pulled away due to public pressure and rates fall to 2.25% no cost? Are you going to refinance? If so, that $900 is a sunk cost that you'll never recover.

I know it's disappointing to not get your 2.5% done, but 2.875% is a great rate to be at and you can make another move down the road if rates fall.
bgh11
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by bgh11 »

TroutMD wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:55 pm I got denied for the first time ever on a home loan/refinance.

I am a physician and my income is 100% 1099. I bought a home in December in a new town, had no issue getting financed and paid ~35% down on it, was moving and changing jobs.

Rate is 3.5 15 year. Found a 2.3% 15 year at a bank behind me, applied, pre approved, etc. Our credit score is 800s.

They denied us because of 'significant change in income course for less than a year'. Despite a trajectory of nearly a decade of mid 6 figure incomes, and more than enough in my savings to pay the house off, and times over in investments to pay it off.

Needless to say, I was perplexed. Long talk with the bank president who blames lending rules.

We moved on, didn't change anything. I have family members that make 10% of what we do buying houses at twice+ their incomes who barely pay their electric bills and have zero issues getting financing.
See if any of them licensed in your state
https://www.benzinga.com/money/mortage- ... -employed/
nic3456
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nic3456 »

Watermark must be cross referencing my internet history and seeing BH lol- 3x I've filled out the form to get a free quote, but never get anything (checked spam).
newbie20
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by newbie20 »

anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:46 pm
topcatin wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:26 pm Lenderfi LO: How did you hear about us?
Me: found out online
End of conversation...there is no need to give details.

In the end after locking the LO said "Tell your friends about us" :)
Haha they did not ask how I found them when I did my refi with LenderFi last month. But the LO did ask that I only lock if I was done shopping around. Wonder if BH is now a scarlet letter among lenders...
Anthony (LF) told me exactly the same thing - that he would only lock if I was done shopping around. The thing is - I had an application in process with another lender, and when I told them about the locked LF offer (2.5%, 30 yr, $415 closing costs with escrow), they not only matched the rate, but the closing cost is only $350 and there is no escrow, so saving me at least $5K in cash required at closing. Plus, they service their own loans. I locked with them on 8/13 and intend to close with them.

My question is - should I tell LF to cancel/withdraw my application? Or, just not respond to them? Will I be "blacklisted" with them in either case?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:43 pm It's pretty crazy that they refuse to provide a locked loan estimate, without a full application and all documents provided, and then complain about the extra work for their underwriting team, when people walk away. They did that too themselves, because of what is essentially an aggressive sales tactic. Get people to do the full application, with documents, in exchange for a lock, so that they feel invested in that their loan with Watermark, and can't be bothered to shop around elsewhere. If they just provided loan estimates with basic information and locked the rate, when people requested, then people could meaningfully comparison shop for other loans (since a loan estimate with an unlocked rate is essentially just a promise that could change at any minute and often does).
Interesting that you had such an experience. My experience with Watermark was great and I did not have to provide any info beyond the legally required minimum to get the loan estimate. Yeah, their web portal asked for it, but I never filled it out. Their disclosures team got me the LE in 2-3 business days. But I also fully willing to do the loan with them if Better didn’t sweeten the pot.
manatee2005
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by manatee2005 »

cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:43 pm
anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:50 am
cb474 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:40 am
anon_investor wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:44 pm
cb474 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 pm

Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.
Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...
Since you don't have to tell Watermark that you heard about them through Bogleheads, how is that true?
Of course, so why do people? Never reveal your sources or secret sauce unless you have to... Lesson to ne learned by other BHs applying to Watermark in the future.
I guess so. I think I told them where I heard about them when they asked, because it never occured to me that they would decide Bogleheads people are bad or were doing anything unusual.

It's pretty crazy that they refuse to provide a locked loan estimate, without a full application and all documents provided, and then complain about the extra work for their underwriting team, when people walk away. They did that too themselves, because of what is essentially an aggressive sales tactic. Get people to do the full application, with documents, in exchange for a lock, so that they feel invested in that their loan with Watermark, and can't be bothered to shop around elsewhere. If they just provided loan estimates with basic information and locked the rate, when people requested, then people could meaningfully comparison shop for other loans (since a loan estimate with an unlocked rate is essentially just a promise that could change at any minute and often does).

Other lenders are not so rigid and aggressive about this. Other lenders, when they find out that you have also applied elsewhere, try to compete, as amply evidenced in this thread. My mortgage broker didn't think it was at all weird that I would shop around or even apply with someone else at the same time. Both Loan Depot and Better, when I told them I was withdrawing my application, because I was going with someone else, immediately tried to negotiate. The person at Better seemed perfectly chipper about it and not all weird and aggressive.
Exactly, they are doing it to themselves. The rates are low and they are making fat margins. And then they get mad people are shopping around. Whether I refinance with lenderfi or loandepot or raterabbit means absolutely nothing to me because they will sell the loan in a month. So they are just a commodity and I want the cheapest price.
PharmerBrown
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by PharmerBrown »

nic3456 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:12 pm Watermark must be cross referencing my internet history and seeing BH lol- 3x I've filled out the form to get a free quote, but never get anything (checked spam).
Same thing happened to me!
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anon_investor
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

PharmerBrown wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:59 pm
nic3456 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:12 pm Watermark must be cross referencing my internet history and seeing BH lol- 3x I've filled out the form to get a free quote, but never get anything (checked spam).
Same thing happened to me!
Y'all gotta be anonymous...
Goal33
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Goal33 »

newbie20 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:32 pm
anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:46 pm
topcatin wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:26 pm Lenderfi LO: How did you hear about us?
Me: found out online
End of conversation...there is no need to give details.

In the end after locking the LO said "Tell your friends about us" :)
Haha they did not ask how I found them when I did my refi with LenderFi last month. But the LO did ask that I only lock if I was done shopping around. Wonder if BH is now a scarlet letter among lenders...
Anthony (LF) told me exactly the same thing - that he would only lock if I was done shopping around. The thing is - I had an application in process with another lender, and when I told them about the locked LF offer (2.5%, 30 yr, $415 closing costs with escrow), they not only matched the rate, but the closing cost is only $350 and there is no escrow, so saving me at least $5K in cash required at closing. Plus, they service their own loans. I locked with them on 8/13 and intend to close with them.

My question is - should I tell LF to cancel/withdraw my application? Or, just not respond to them? Will I be "blacklisted" with them in either case?
I'd assume less likely to get blacklisted if you cancel before they waste more resources, but I don't know...
ZMonet
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ZMonet »

I too got the WM treatment about Bogleheads. I usually don't disclose information about where I heard about a company, but I was proud of the work this group has put in and wanted to give some credit. I didn't realize that it would be considered such a bad thing...In fact, my LO told me that he had been instructed to drop anybody who said they came from Bogleheads "and another site" (I didn't ask but I'm guessing Slickdeals). He said he thought I was sincere about following through and that if asked again, I should say that I found out someplace else on the Internet. I thought it was all a hard sell to make me feel like he was doing me a favor and letting me slip through, but based on other posts I no longer think that is the case. Regardless, I'm now at the conditional approval stage and hope I speed through to closing.

Otherwise, the experience has been great (so far) with WM. From my LO, my understanding is that they are swamped.
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truenyer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by truenyer »

newbie20 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:32 pm
anon_investor wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:46 pm
topcatin wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:26 pm Lenderfi LO: How did you hear about us?
Me: found out online
End of conversation...there is no need to give details.

In the end after locking the LO said "Tell your friends about us" :)
Haha they did not ask how I found them when I did my refi with LenderFi last month. But the LO did ask that I only lock if I was done shopping around. Wonder if BH is now a scarlet letter among lenders...
Anthony (LF) told me exactly the same thing - that he would only lock if I was done shopping around. The thing is - I had an application in process with another lender, and when I told them about the locked LF offer (2.5%, 30 yr, $415 closing costs with escrow), they not only matched the rate, but the closing cost is only $350 and there is no escrow, so saving me at least $5K in cash required at closing. Plus, they service their own loans. I locked with them on 8/13 and intend to close with them.

My question is - should I tell LF to cancel/withdraw my application? Or, just not respond to them? Will I be "blacklisted" with them in either case?
I had “Anthony” at LF. He’s the one who said I don’t have integrity for bailing after I had locked with them.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

pianos101 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:42 pm I had “Anthony” at LF. He’s the one who said I don’t have integrity for bailing after I had locked with them.
Anthony straight up told me to look elsewhere since my loan was under $150k.
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truenyer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by truenyer »

BrandonBogle wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:16 pm
pianos101 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:42 pm I had “Anthony” at LF. He’s the one who said I don’t have integrity for bailing after I had locked with them.
Anthony straight up told me to look elsewhere since my loan was under $150k.
I don't want to pre-judge, but based on the fact that they are super busy, and how he looked from his "picture" I was like whatever....

I did give him the opportunity to match the new offer I had.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

pianos101 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:18 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:16 pm
pianos101 wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:42 pm I had “Anthony” at LF. He’s the one who said I don’t have integrity for bailing after I had locked with them.
Anthony straight up told me to look elsewhere since my loan was under $150k.
I don't want to pre-judge, but based on the fact that they are super busy, and how he looked from his "picture" I was like whatever....

I did give him the opportunity to match the new offer I had.
I hadn't even gotten far enough to share with him Watermark's loan estimate. I applied and maybe 20 minutes later got an email essentially amounting to "you're not worth my time". Oh well. I honestly wouldn't mind being their customer and have automatic reach outs every 6-months, even if the rate isn't the lowest altogether. However, I don't want to overpay up front. Their online tooling has made it clear I'm not their target customer as the best I can do is 3.25% with $800 in credits to cover most of my closing costs. And unlike other lenders, looking at a 15-year makes my pricing worse, not better.
phx
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by phx »

A few weeks back I got cold called by my mortgage servicer with an offer of 2.375 with no fees, but I had to sign that afternoon by 5pm pacific. After verifying it was actually my servicer I signed immediately and just closed last Friday.

VA loan IRRL 440k value 515k

30 years at 2.375 APR with $5,700 in lender credits.

I did have to come up with a full years escrow, but the current loan had all but $500 of that and to me it seems like escrow is separate from the loan itself as it’s refundable.

Funny enough, the lenders credits were $300 more than needed to settle the loan, so depending on how you look at it I’m either getting paid $300 or paid $200 to refinance at one of the lowest rates for any mortgage.
jm1495
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jm1495 »

ZMonet wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:35 pm I too got the WM treatment about Bogleheads. I usually don't disclose information about where I heard about a company, but I was proud of the work this group has put in and wanted to give some credit. I didn't realize that it would be considered such a bad thing...In fact, my LO told me that he had been instructed to drop anybody who said they came from Bogleheads "and another site" (I didn't ask but I'm guessing Slickdeals). He said he thought I was sincere about following through and that if asked again, I should say that I found out someplace else on the Internet. I thought it was all a hard sell to make me feel like he was doing me a favor and letting me slip through, but based on other posts I no longer think that is the case. Regardless, I'm now at the conditional approval stage and hope I speed through to closing.

Otherwise, the experience has been great (so far) with WM. From my LO, my understanding is that they are swamped.
Very similar experience.
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Cobra Commander
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Cobra Commander »

phx wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:34 am A few weeks back I got cold called by my mortgage servicer with an offer of 2.375 with no fees, but I had to sign that afternoon by 5pm pacific. After verifying it was actually my servicer I signed immediately and just closed last Friday.

VA loan IRRL 440k value 515k

30 years at 2.375 APR with $5,700 in lender credits.

I did have to come up with a full years escrow, but the current loan had all but $500 of that and to me it seems like escrow is separate from the loan itself as it’s refundable.

Funny enough, the lenders credits were $300 more than needed to settle the loan, so depending on how you look at it I’m either getting paid $300 or paid $200 to refinance at one of the lowest rates for any mortgage.
That is a phenomenal rate on an IRRL. I shopped for the IRRL at about 5 places at loans of either $530K or $510K to see if being under the conforming limit made the price better and I didn't even get close to those rates. I think Quicken offered 2.25% but the lender fee was almost $10K! For me, the funding fee of 0.5% made it impossible to get a better deal on a VA loan than a conventional loan. Oddly enough, the VA loans had significantly higher lender credits when I first bought the house and when I refinanced but maybe the market for them isn't as good as it once was.
shadowrider
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by shadowrider »

Finally closed with Better.com for 2.5% no cost 15 year on 300K for 450K primary home in Ohio. I had received an LE from another lender for 2.625% and better said they could match but I said they had to beat it (and keep no cost and no escrow). They hemmed and hawed for a couple days but finally said they could do the 2.5% at no cost. Seems like if you stick to your guns, they are willing to dicker a bit. Just my $.02.
phx
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by phx »

Cobra Commander wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:47 am
phx wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:34 am A few weeks back I got cold called by my mortgage servicer with an offer of 2.375 with no fees, but I had to sign that afternoon by 5pm pacific. After verifying it was actually my servicer I signed immediately and just closed last Friday.

VA loan IRRL 440k value 515k

30 years at 2.375 APR with $5,700 in lender credits.

I did have to come up with a full years escrow, but the current loan had all but $500 of that and to me it seems like escrow is separate from the loan itself as it’s refundable.

Funny enough, the lenders credits were $300 more than needed to settle the loan, so depending on how you look at it I’m either getting paid $300 or paid $200 to refinance at one of the lowest rates for any mortgage.
That is a phenomenal rate on an IRRL. I shopped for the IRRL at about 5 places at loans of either $530K or $510K to see if being under the conforming limit made the price better and I didn't even get close to those rates. I think Quicken offered 2.25% but the lender fee was almost $10K! For me, the funding fee of 0.5% made it impossible to get a better deal on a VA loan than a conventional loan. Oddly enough, the VA loans had significantly higher lender credits when I first bought the house and when I refinanced but maybe the market for them isn't as good as it once was.
I thought it was pretty absurdly low, and didn’t realize how common zero cost refis were until I found this site after closing.

I will not be staying here long term, this area has handled the pandemic horribly (won’t say which way that is as to not drag politics into this forum, but suffice to say I’ve started the job search for areas that are handling it differently). So it’s great to have a lower rate that I can offer to the new buyers and save some $$$ in the meantime.
3of10
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 3of10 »

RGB205 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:14 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:35 am
RGB205 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:31 am Best refi offer: 30 yr. fixed @ 2.625. A. Points .225% = $624, B. $64, C. $1035, A+B+C= $1723. I. Total Other Costs: Estimated @ ~ $4050. I will roll the estimated $5773 into the loan.

...

I am thinking my rationale for doing the refi is sound. I am just wondering where others see this falling in terms of the best deal out there (being a 10) vs the worst deal out there (being a 1)? Is the juice worth the squeeze to try to work this lower at this point?
What are the costs in Section E? What are the lender credits if this same lender gives you 2.75% instead of 2.625%. $624 isn’t bad and either rate is good, but hopefully without that $624 and a modest lender credit, this can be a no-cost refi.

I would give it an 8 currently, 9 if it becomes no-cost.
Thank you for your comments. TBH, Section E., F., and G. of the LE became confusing to me in my attempt to compare local lender (X) to online lender (Y).

Local Lender X: $4048
E: $1510 (Recording & Other Tax: $110; Transfer Tax $1400)
F: $1158 (Home Ins. 2 mo.: $222; Prepaid Int. ($20.10 per day/15 days): $302; Property Tax - 2 mo.: $634)
G: $1378 (1 mo. Home Ins.: $111; Property Tax - 4 mo.: $1267)

Online Lender Y: $4178
E: $148 (Recording & Other: $110; Transfer Tax $38)
F: $2101 (Prepaid Int. $304; Property Tax - 6 mo. $1797)
G: $1929 (2 mo. Home Ins.: $132; Property Tax - 6 mo. $1797)

The 'best offer' I presented was from the online lender (Y). Local lender offer (X) was giving the 2.625% with a $1600 origination fee and a bunch of Misc. items in Section C. My big concern here with Section E: is that online lender (Y) does not have the $1400 Transfer Tax/ Tax Stamp. I will inquire about the no-cost refi @ 2.75%.
Section E (recording & transfer tax) is controlled by the state/county. So, because of that, I do not use that section in comparing between lenders. If there is a difference between lenders, it doesn't matter. The correct amount will be put in place for closing.

Also, it helps in doing your own investigation to find out what the transfer tax is for your state/county. I was helping a friend with their refi, and they had a transfer tax of $4K in their LE. Because I knew that the transfer tax in his location was zero for a non-cashout refi, I ignored it and had him contact the lender to get it changed.

Now, where section E (transfer tax) is important, is when it is a large cost for a particular state/county, and that cost has to be factored in to whether to do the refi.
"You don't stop playing because you're old. You're old because you've stopped playing"
sharker10
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by sharker10 »

Anyone have any new data points regarding being rate locked prior to the .5% adverse market fee? I locked with Watermark on 8/6/2020. A friend received an email from WaterMark same day that the .5% notice was announced and they stated that 80% of locked pipeline will take a 50 basis point price hit. But havent heard anything since this email.

I feel like if I was locked prior to this fee, I should not have to pay it. Will they eventually force me to pay? Odds are that this loan wont close before the end of August.
keystone
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by keystone »

sharker10 wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:04 am Anyone have any new data points regarding being rate locked prior to the .5% adverse market fee? I locked with Watermark on 8/6/2020. A friend received an email from WaterMark same day that the .5% notice was announced and they stated that 80% of locked pipeline will take a 50 basis point price hit. But havent heard anything since this email.

I feel like if I was locked prior to this fee, I should not have to pay it. Will they eventually force me to pay? Odds are that this loan wont close before the end of August.
Per my signed loan estimate, it says that my interest rate, points and lender credit cannot change during the lock period. There's no way I would agree to this .5% fee after the fact and I don't know how they could argue that I should. I have not heard anything from them about this, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I have to say, reading this thread the last few days has caused me to lose a lot of confidence in Watermark. I'm sure other posters feel the same way, I've acted in good faith and done everything they have asked up to this point. Their recent "policy" to discriminate against Bogleheads leads me to question what kind of operation they are running and now the possibility of additional fees after the fact does not sit well. I guess we'll all have to wait and see how things unfold.
TanyTrojan
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by TanyTrojan »

jjhk121 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:00 pm
TanyTrojan wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:57 pm
jjhk121 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:50 pm
TanyTrojan wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:19 pm I locked my rate yesterday @ 3.30 pm PST with LenderFI. They said it will take 2-3 days to get LE. I don't know when the announcement was made about 0.5% fee. Do you guys think LenderFI will honor my lock rate with no closing costs? I am hoping so as they didn't mention anything about these fees while locking and gave me a verbal confirmation of the rate with no closing costs. Thanks!

I'm in the same boat. Looking at my call history I locked yesterday verbally at 3:40 PST.

From reading through this thread and the LenderFi thread it seems that it's common to not hear anything for a few days before receiving confirmation that you're locked. Nothing we can do but wait I guess.

I did receive an email right after the phone call requesting some documents be uploaded the the portal. Did that happen to you as well?
Yes I received the email and immediately uploaded all documents. Who was your loan officer? (I spoke with Ryan). Lets keep each other posted.
My LO is Robert
Quick update - I received new LE and its truly no closing costs (no mention of 0.5% fee). :sharebeer
sharker10
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by sharker10 »

keystone wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:27 am
sharker10 wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:04 am Anyone have any new data points regarding being rate locked prior to the .5% adverse market fee? I locked with Watermark on 8/6/2020. A friend received an email from WaterMark same day that the .5% notice was announced and they stated that 80% of locked pipeline will take a 50 basis point price hit. But havent heard anything since this email.

I feel like if I was locked prior to this fee, I should not have to pay it. Will they eventually force me to pay? Odds are that this loan wont close before the end of August.
Per my signed loan estimate, it says that my interest rate, points and lender credit cannot change during the lock period. There's no way I would agree to this .5% fee after the fact and I don't know how they could argue that I should. I have not heard anything from them about this, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

I have to say, reading this thread the last few days has caused me to lose a lot of confidence in Watermark. I'm sure other posters feel the same way, I've acted in good faith and done everything they have asked up to this point. Their recent "policy" to discriminate against Bogleheads leads me to question what kind of operation they are running and now the possibility of additional fees after the fact does not sit well. I guess we'll all have to wait and see how things unfold.
I agree, I will give them the benefit of the doubt as well. I have no reason not to currently. The email that my friend received concerns me alittle and I am just waiting for them to add that in later revisions once they start processing the loan and pulling the title to get more exact numbers.
ZMonet
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ZMonet »

Yeah, nothing to do but give them the benefit of the doubt. But if they thought Bogleheads were not following through with loans before, they should see how few proceed to closing if they add in .5%.
Ryzen
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Ryzen »

To clarify for everyone:

You will not see a .5% fee itemized anywhere on your loan documents.

The Loan Level Pricing Adjustments (LLPA) are all on the back-end and affect the price the GSE's pay lenders when they buy loans. The fee will be rolled into either the interest rate or lender credits you are offered. You will have no idea about any of the LLPA's unless you specifically ask and your loan officer confirms.
Rjs
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Rjs »

Hi everyone,
Hoping to get some advice. I am in the process of refinancing my 30 year mortgage with Owning. We are scheduled to close this Thursday and they called about sending a notary home to sign some documents. This is the first time I am refinancing. Is the notary process normal? Any thing we should keep in mind before signing the documents?
Thanks as always for all your help and guidance.
jimmyrules712
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jimmyrules712 »

Rjs wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:55 pm Hi everyone,
Hoping to get some advice. I am in the process of refinancing my 30 year mortgage with Owning. We are scheduled to close this Thursday and they called about sending a notary home to sign some documents. This is the first time I am refinancing. Is the notary process normal? Any thing we should keep in mind before signing the documents?
Thanks as always for all your help and guidance.
All refinances always have to be signed and notarized in person so this is completely normal. Just make sure you find out in advance if they're expecting you to bring money to the closing and how much and in what payment form. If it's completely no cost then you don't have to worry about that but they still might need money to fund escrow, etc.
Rjs
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Rjs »

jimmyrules712 wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:00 pm
Rjs wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:55 pm Hi everyone,
Hoping to get some advice. I am in the process of refinancing my 30 year mortgage with Owning. We are scheduled to close this Thursday and they called about sending a notary home to sign some documents. This is the first time I am refinancing. Is the notary process normal? Any thing we should keep in mind before signing the documents?
Thanks as always for all your help and guidance.
All refinances always have to be signed and notarized in person so this is completely normal. Just make sure you find out in advance if they're expecting you to bring money to the closing and how much and in what payment form. If it's completely no cost then you don't have to worry about that but they still might need money to fund escrow, etc.
Thank you so much. It is a no cost refinance, but I will check with them and confirm if I need to bring money and in what payment form.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

3of10 wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:28 am Section E (recording & transfer tax) is controlled by the state/county. So, because of that, I do not use that section in comparing between lenders.

...

Now, where section E (transfer tax) is important, is when it is a large cost for a particular state/county, and that cost has to be factored in to whether to do the refi.
For RGB’s case, it made a difference whether this was a no-cost refi or not, and thus, whether to raise the rate to make it a no-cost.

Yes, they should be the same between lenders, but it is a cost specific to refinancing (you wouldn’t be paying any new recording fees to keep your existing mortgage) and must, as you say, be considered about whether to do the refi.

Also, let’s not forget that for errors the other way, a lender is not allowed to charge more in transfer tax than they had on the LE. So if RGB should have been charged $1,400 in transfer tax, the lender neglecting to include on the LE is bound to eat the cost.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Ryzen wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:32 pm To clarify for everyone:

You will not see a .5% fee itemized anywhere on your loan documents.

The Loan Level Pricing Adjustments (LLPA) are all on the back-end and affect the price the GSE's pay lenders when they buy loans. The fee will be rolled into either the interest rate or lender credits you are offered. You will have no idea about any of the LLPA's unless you specifically ask and your loan officer confirms.
+ 1
jjhk121
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jjhk121 »

TanyTrojan wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:01 pm
jjhk121 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:00 pm
TanyTrojan wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:57 pm
jjhk121 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:50 pm
TanyTrojan wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:19 pm I locked my rate yesterday @ 3.30 pm PST with LenderFI. They said it will take 2-3 days to get LE. I don't know when the announcement was made about 0.5% fee. Do you guys think LenderFI will honor my lock rate with no closing costs? I am hoping so as they didn't mention anything about these fees while locking and gave me a verbal confirmation of the rate with no closing costs. Thanks!

I'm in the same boat. Looking at my call history I locked yesterday verbally at 3:40 PST.

From reading through this thread and the LenderFi thread it seems that it's common to not hear anything for a few days before receiving confirmation that you're locked. Nothing we can do but wait I guess.

I did receive an email right after the phone call requesting some documents be uploaded the the portal. Did that happen to you as well?
Yes I received the email and immediately uploaded all documents. Who was your loan officer? (I spoke with Ryan). Lets keep each other posted.
My LO is Robert
Quick update - I received new LE and its truly no closing costs (no mention of 0.5% fee). :sharebeer
Nice! Still waiting on mine.
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