Refinance Mega Thread

[Ana Z]

I am confused about how APR is calculated in case when there is a lender credit - before lender credit is applied or after? That is, comparing two loans that are identical except loan #1 has $2700 in costs (A+B+C+E) and $2700 lender credit that makes it a no cost VS loan #2 that has $1000 in costs and $250 lender credit that brings it to $750 cost: would APR be higher for loan #1 (cost/fees higher before credit) or for loan #2 (cost higher after credit)?

[InvestDoc]

So basically what's happening is I'm being charged interest from both lenders for 8/12. Since the loan wasn't funded until 8/13, Better should get paid for 8/12. The refund they showed me is correct. Lenderfi should not start getting interest until 8/13. Since they are only paying me one day back, they are also charging me for 8/12. I told the Lenderfi guy about the error, and he is going to check on it and get back to me.

It's a minor adjustment (about $50 in my case), but I do wonder if this stuff happens all the time and lenders make a mountain of nickels from volume since nobody checks the work and does the math!

Happened to me with Owning. They charged me interest for the day before the loan funded. Took forever to get a refund and even then they rounded the amount down to the nearest 10.

[gas_balloon]

My second refi of 2020 closed today, without any major issues. It was a bit of a bumpy ride. The person working my file for closing was nowhere near as responsive and effective as my loan officer. So up until 15 minutes before closing, there were still revisions to my closing disclosures. My loan amount changed 4 times in the past 24 hours. But in the end, it all looked good and the settlement agent forced them to honor the lender credits from the higher loan even after they reduced the size of my loan. Now I wait for funding.

For those who ask for such things, NC, $150k loan, 48% LTV, $1,300 in closing costs (D + E), $7,500 in credits, netting me $6,200 after all is settled up.

Please keep in mind, that I could have done a 2.25% 15-year with $1k in the end, but instead went to a higher rate to maximize profit and plan on refi # 3 to bring my rate down. So while I am earning $6k+, I don't have a 2.x% rate.

Congrats. Would suggest to you and anyone else to make sure to check your post-closing calculations based on the actual day the loan funds. You will typically get a refund back from your old lender as well as the new. In the closing docs the new lender typically includes a few extra days of interest in their payoff request to the old lender, so I always check the refund from the paid off lender as well as the prepaid interest calc from the new lender.

Here's an example from the loan I closed last week which funded on 8/13 this week.

• Lenderfi final closing docs had prepaid interest for 21 days (8/11-9/1) in the closing docs

• he payoff in the closing docs had accrued for interest for 15 days (8/1-8/15). The couple days cushion just in case there's a delay

Since the loan was funded on 8/13 (confirmed on Better's website), I am due back 3 days interest from Better and 2 days pre-paid interest from Lenderfi[/list]

• I checked my Better account and they show the proper refund coming my way

• I called Lenderfi and they said I will be getting a check for 1 day interest. This is not correct as my loan was funded two days after they had estimated (8/13 actual vs 8/11 in closing docs)

So basically what's happening is I'm being charged interest from both lenders for 8/12. Since the loan wasn't funded until 8/13, Better should get paid for 8/12. The refund they showed me is correct. Lenderfi should not start getting interest until 8/13. Since they are only paying me one day back, they are also charging me for 8/12. I told the Lenderfi guy about the error, and he is going to check on it and get back to me.

It's a minor adjustment (about $50 in my case), but I do wonder if this stuff happens all the time and lenders make a mountain of nickels from volume since nobody checks the work and does the math!

Happened to me with Owning. Took forever to get a refund and even then they rounded the amount down to the nearest 10.

It's fairly common to have interest overlap for 1 day. The new lender wires the money to old lender, which takes up to 1 day. So they start charging interest from when they wire the payoff, and the old lender will charge you until they receive the payoff.

[mags]

I just closed on a Lender Fi 30 year fixed 2.75% with $400 closing costs.

[InvestDoc]

[/quote]
It's fairly common to have interest overlap for 1 day. The new lender wires the money to old lender, which takes up to 1 day. So they start charging interest from when they wire the payoff, and the old lender will charge you until they receive the payoff.
[/quote]

This is true, but I edited my post above to say that Owning charged me interest for the day before the loan funded. They acknowledged the mistake but didn't refund the full amount of interest for the extra day, just an arbitrarily rounded number.

[manatee2005]

I just closed on a Lender Fi 30 year fixed 2.75% with $400 closing costs.

Woot woot!

[bgh11]

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.

What a disappointment. This would explain Watermark ghosting me after I’ve done/uploaded everything they asked. The LO did ask how I heard about them when we spoke, and I said BH, and he sounded happy and would apply the “friends and family” discount rates. So much good that did!

I really did want to stick with them, too. Their loss.

Will proceed with Lenderfi on a slightly worse deal but still worthwhile refi.

Did they share with you what the “friends and family” discount rates mean? 1/8 off interest rate? highly lender credit?

[truenyer]

I am confused about how APR is calculated in case when there is a lender credit - before lender credit is applied or after? That is, comparing two loans that are identical except loan #1 has $2700 in costs (A+B+C+E) and $2700 lender credit that makes it a no cost VS loan #2 that has $1000 in costs and $250 lender credit that brings it to $750 cost: would APR be higher for loan #1 (cost/fees higher before credit) or for loan #2 (cost higher after credit)?

Before. Unfortunately you simply can't use APR and have to look at at the LE worksheet.

My loan has an interest rate of 2.625%, a gross total lender credit of $5,128 and a net lender credit of $2,100 (A+B+C+E-lender credit). My listed APR is 2.656% but obviously the APR should be lower than the interest rate in my case.

[srt7]

My second refi of 2020 closed today, without any major issues. It was a bit of a bumpy ride. The person working my file for closing was nowhere near as responsive and effective as my loan officer. So up until 15 minutes before closing, there were still revisions to my closing disclosures. My loan amount changed 4 times in the past 24 hours. But in the end, it all looked good and the settlement agent forced them to honor the lender credits from the higher loan even after they reduced the size of my loan. Now I wait for funding.

For those who ask for such things, NC, $150k loan, 48% LTV, $1,300 in closing costs (D + E), $7,500 in credits, netting me $6,200 after all is settled up.

Please keep in mind, that I could have done a 2.25% 15-year with $1k in the end, but instead went to a higher rate to maximize profit and plan on refi # 3 to bring my rate down. So while I am earning $6k+, I don't have a 2.x% rate.

Congrats!!

Is there a limit on how long to wait before applying for a refi again? I bought (at 4.375% for 30 yr) in 2018 and refinanced (at 3.25% for 20 yr) in June 2020. Costed me $1,500. I wanted to play it safe so didn't wait. But now it looks like rates have dropped further and I might be able to do a 3% or lesser so getting that itch again. While I don't see a clause from my new lender restricting on refinancing I still wonder if there is a minimum amount of time that needs to pass before another refi.

[FS51]

I've been watching rates since March but due to outside forces haven't been ready to refinance yet. We're looking at a jumbo refi at approximately 70% LTV. Current rate is just over 4%!! Rates I've been seeing have been low 3s at little or no cost. With this new bs .5 money grab is there any expectation that jumbos could continue to come down as they, in theory, shouldn't be impacted by this artificial rate increase?

Honestly, if you can get into the low 3s for little / no cost on a jumbo, id do that all day long right now. If you’re at 70% LTV with over 4% as your rate, you’ll save a ton of money on interest getting into the low 3s. And if you can do it for no cost, if rates continue to drop, you can always refi again.

The jumbo market has been wacky this year. It’s really difficult to predict because there are so few banks offering jumbo refi’s, and even fewer brokers because they don’t have many investors to sell the loan servicing too.

You're right! Thank you for putting it so succinctly. One question.. I'm selling a "rental" (house that didn't sell a few years ago)' that's a conventional loan but still substantial amount of debt. I should close at the end of August. Does it make sense to wait until that debt is gone or apply asap knowing everything takes way too long right now?

[BrandonBogle]

Is there a limit on how long to wait before applying for a refi again? I bought (at 4.375% for 30 yr) in 2018 and refinanced (at 3.25% for 20 yr) in June 2020. Costed me $1,500. I wanted to play it safe so didn't wait. But now it looks like rates have dropped further and I might be able to do a 3% or lesser so getting that itch again. While I don't see a clause from my new lender restricting on refinancing I still wonder if there is a minimum amount of time that needs to pass before another refi.

Generally speaking. no. It varies by lender and if your lender does have a limit, they will tell you during the app or closing process in getting the loan. If you have a lender that does include such limitations, it is generally for a period of six months.

You will also find the new lender is difficult to work with if you don't have a mortgage statement for the loan you want to pay off. So while it can be done quickly, you will find it much easier to do after about 45 days.

You're right! Thank you for putting it so succinctly. One question.. I'm selling a "rental" (house that didn't sell a few years ago)' that's a conventional loan but still substantial amount of debt. I should close at the end of August. Does it make sense to wait until that debt is gone or apply asap knowing everything takes way too long right now?

Assuming the "rental" house isn't the one you want to refinance, the you should be fine as long as your debt-to-income (DTI) is ok with it. If you are already under contract for a sale, the lender will likely give consideration to excluding that debt (or part of it) in their DTI calcs if you need to have it excluded to qualify. Given that you are so close to closing on that sale, you should be fine.

[Ana Z]

I am confused about how APR is calculated in case when there is a lender credit - before lender credit is applied or after? That is, comparing two loans that are identical except loan #1 has $2700 in costs (A+B+C+E) and $2700 lender credit that makes it a no cost VS loan #2 that has $1000 in costs and $250 lender credit that brings it to $750 cost: would APR be higher for loan #1 (cost/fees higher before credit) or for loan #2 (cost higher after credit)?

Before. Unfortunately you simply can't use APR and have to look at at the LE worksheet.

My loan has an interest rate of 2.625%, a gross total lender credit of $5,128 and a net lender credit of $2,100 (A+B+C+E-lender credit). My listed APR is 2.656% but obviously the APR should be lower than the interest rate in my case.

Thanks! The numbers make more sense now.

[cb474]

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.

What a disappointment. This would explain Watermark ghosting me after I’ve done/uploaded everything they asked. The LO did ask how I heard about them when we spoke, and I said BH, and he sounded happy and would apply the “friends and family” discount rates. So much good that did!

I really did want to stick with them, too. Their loss.

Will proceed with Lenderfi on a slightly worse deal but still worthwhile refi.

Are you saying you filled out the entire online application and uploaded all the documents and they never sent you a loan estimate. A friend of mine called them a couple weeks ago, got a rate quote over the phone, then filled out the online application and provided documents, and got a loan estimate with a locked rate three days later. But since then he's heard nothing.

My experience with Watermark, having talked to several different loan officers, is that they are very slow to respond, beyond an initial inquiry. They seem to be extremely busy and backlogged right now. So maybe you need to bug them? Maybe just call back the 800 number and complain that they loan officer is not getting back to you?

The first loan officer I spoke to at Watermark a couple weeks ago didn't say anything about bogleheads being an issue, when I mentioned them. But then after a couple calls he stopped responding to me. Then a different loan officer texted me out of the blue, so I called her. She didn't get back to me for a week and then told me how they are restricting boglhead people. So it seems only recently that they decided bogleheads is bad. So that may not be the reason you've heard nothing. It may just be because they are so overloaded.

[ChiKid24]

Congrats. Would suggest to you and anyone else to make sure to check your post-closing calculations based on the actual day the loan funds. You will typically get a refund back from your old lender as well as the new. In the closing docs the new lender typically includes a few extra days of interest in their payoff request to the old lender, so I always check the refund from the paid off lender as well as the prepaid interest calc from the new lender.

Here's an example from the loan I closed last week which funded on 8/13 this week.

• Lenderfi final closing docs had prepaid interest for 21 days (8/11-9/1) in the closing docs

• he payoff in the closing docs had accrued for interest for 15 days (8/1-8/15). The couple days cushion just in case there's a delay

Since the loan was funded on 8/13 (confirmed on Better's website), I am due back 3 days interest from Better and 2 days pre-paid interest from Lenderfi[/list]

• I checked my Better account and they show the proper refund coming my way

• I called Lenderfi and they said I will be getting a check for 1 day interest. This is not correct as my loan was funded two days after they had estimated (8/13 actual vs 8/11 in closing docs)

So basically what's happening is I'm being charged interest from both lenders for 8/12. Since the loan wasn't funded until 8/13, Better should get paid for 8/12. The refund they showed me is correct. Lenderfi should not start getting interest until 8/13. Since they are only paying me one day back, they are also charging me for 8/12. I told the Lenderfi guy about the error, and he is going to check on it and get back to me.

It's a minor adjustment (about $50 in my case), but I do wonder if this stuff happens all the time and lenders make a mountain of nickels from volume since nobody checks the work and does the math!

Happened to me with Owning. Took forever to get a refund and even then they rounded the amount down to the nearest 10.

It's fairly common to have interest overlap for 1 day. The new lender wires the money to old lender, which takes up to 1 day. So they start charging interest from when they wire the payoff, and the old lender will charge you until they receive the payoff.

I'm sorry but I don't accept that. If there is overlap in the days, that should be on the banks to work out between themselves. I shouldn't be charged an extra day by both guys. They are the ones that handle the funds and do this on a daily basis. They should figure it out. In no way is this something I should be penalized for.

[Xrayman69]

My wife and I just decided to refinance, to take advantage of low rates. Of course, my first step is to check in at the Bogleheads forum to get the lay of the land and advice that fits my approach to finances and investing. This thread, unfortunately, is rather overwhelming. I expect that it contains all the answers I might seek, but I've no idea how to find them.

Our current mortgage is for about $280k (home value $435k), 4%, 30yr (21 yr remaining), with P+I $1630/month. Our goal is to save money by taking advantage of the low interest rates. We will probably be in the house for a while, and can afford to increase our monthly payments.

My questions cluster around two issues: First, when is it a good idea to buy points, and how many? Second, how to find or shop for the best rates?

Cheers!

Loan depot. Conventional refinance last week had 30 years at 2.625 with no points and likely no or little cost. 15 years was 2.25. Use an amortization calculator and you can compare your current monthly vs 15 year monthly.

[BrandonBogle]

Let’s step back here folks. ChiKid’s scenario is not typical.

Old lender: Better
New lender: LenderFi

Closing Disclosures include Section F prepaid interest for 8/11 - 9/1

Funding Date: 8/13
Payoff received by Better: 8/13

So Better gets paid up to 8/13, LenderFi gets paid 8/13 onwards. If there was a day overlap, it would be for Better receiving payoff 8/14, the day after funding. Not a day where LenderFi is charging interest before they’ve funded the loan.

Now, the questions is what do the disclosures say? It is common for the settlement agent to receive a wire on LenderFi’s funding day, but NOT send the payoff to Better until next day. Some have timing deadlines or wait until it hard posts to their trust account overnight.

So with ChiKid saying Better verified funding on 8/13, could this be confusion that Better got payoff on 8/13, but the closing disclosures say the settlement agent got funding on 8/12? This would account for why LenderFi is only refunding one day of interest vs. two.

Also, this practice by some settlement agents to send payoff the day after funding is likely the day overlap that gas_balloon was referring to.

[InvestDoc]

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.

What a disappointment. This would explain Watermark ghosting me after I’ve done/uploaded everything they asked. The LO did ask how I heard about them when we spoke, and I said BH, and he sounded happy and would apply the “friends and family” discount rates. So much good that did!

I really did want to stick with them, too. Their loss.

Will proceed with Lenderfi on a slightly worse deal but still worthwhile refi.

Are you saying you filled out the entire online application and uploaded all the documents and they never sent you a loan estimate. A friend of mine called them a couple weeks ago, got a rate quote over the phone, then filled out the online application and provided documents, and got a loan estimate with a locked rate three days later. But since then he's heard nothing.

My experience with Watermark, having talked to several different loan officers, is that they are very slow to respond, beyond an initial inquiry. They seem to be extremely busy and backlogged right now. So maybe you need to bug them? Maybe just call back the 800 number and complain that they loan officer is not getting back to you?

The first loan officer I spoke to at Watermark a couple weeks ago didn't say anything about bogleheads being an issue, when I mentioned them. But then after a couple calls he stopped responding to me. Then a different loan officer texted me out of the blue, so I called her. She didn't get back to me for a week and then told me how they are restricting boglhead people. So it seems only recently that they decided bogleheads is bad. So that may not be the reason you've heard nothing. It may just be because they are so overloaded.

I called Watermark the other day and they asked me 3 times where I heard of them. They must be screening for people from Bogleheads. I told them Yelp since I didn’t know if they would know what Bogleheads is. Either way, their rates were higher than what I found elsewhere.

[keystone]

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.

What a disappointment. This would explain Watermark ghosting me after I’ve done/uploaded everything they asked. The LO did ask how I heard about them when we spoke, and I said BH, and he sounded happy and would apply the “friends and family” discount rates. So much good that did!

I really did want to stick with them, too. Their loss.

Will proceed with Lenderfi on a slightly worse deal but still worthwhile refi.

Are you saying you filled out the entire online application and uploaded all the documents and they never sent you a loan estimate. A friend of mine called them a couple weeks ago, got a rate quote over the phone, then filled out the online application and provided documents, and got a loan estimate with a locked rate three days later. But since then he's heard nothing.

My experience with Watermark, having talked to several different loan officers, is that they are very slow to respond, beyond an initial inquiry. They seem to be extremely busy and backlogged right now. So maybe you need to bug them? Maybe just call back the 800 number and complain that they loan officer is not getting back to you?

The first loan officer I spoke to at Watermark a couple weeks ago didn't say anything about bogleheads being an issue, when I mentioned them. But then after a couple calls he stopped responding to me. Then a different loan officer texted me out of the blue, so I called her. She didn't get back to me for a week and then told me how they are restricting boglhead people. So it seems only recently that they decided bogleheads is bad. So that may not be the reason you've heard nothing. It may just be because they are so overloaded.

I called Watermark the other day and they asked me 3 times where I heard of them. They must be screening for people from Bogleheads. I told them Yelp since I didn’t know if they would know what Bogleheads is. Either way, their rates were higher than what I found elsewhere.

This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.

[mbasherp]

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.

What a disappointment. This would explain Watermark ghosting me after I’ve done/uploaded everything they asked. The LO did ask how I heard about them when we spoke, and I said BH, and he sounded happy and would apply the “friends and family” discount rates. So much good that did!

I really did want to stick with them, too. Their loss.

Will proceed with Lenderfi on a slightly worse deal but still worthwhile refi.

Did they share with you what the “friends and family” discount rates mean? 1/8 off interest rate? highly lender credit?

No idea. He just said that the rate table he sent reflected that. It was the lowest I had seen anywhere.

[mbasherp]

Are you saying you filled out the entire online application and uploaded all the documents and they never sent you a loan estimate. A friend of mine called them a couple weeks ago, got a rate quote over the phone, then filled out the online application and provided documents, and got a loan estimate with a locked rate three days later. But since then he's heard nothing.

My experience with Watermark, having talked to several different loan officers, is that they are very slow to respond, beyond an initial inquiry. They seem to be extremely busy and backlogged right now. So maybe you need to bug them? Maybe just call back the 800 number and complain that they loan officer is not getting back to you?

The first loan officer I spoke to at Watermark a couple weeks ago didn't say anything about bogleheads being an issue, when I mentioned them. But then after a couple calls he stopped responding to me. Then a different loan officer texted me out of the blue, so I called her. She didn't get back to me for a week and then told me how they are restricting boglhead people. So it seems only recently that they decided bogleheads is bad. So that may not be the reason you've heard nothing. It may just be because they are so overloaded.

Yes, I filled out everything and uploaded everything and was never sent a loan estimate. The rep was very responsive initially, and I said I look forward to getting the loan estimate which details exactly what we discussed. He said that comes from a different department. That was almost two weeks ago.

At this point, I would rather take my no cost, no appraisal 2.875% Lenderfi loan which I know will close and keep that relationship for the future than gamble on Watermark with a $500 2.625% loan (with appraisal) when I’m not sure they’re good for it.

$196k balance, which is why I wasn’t offered some of the rock bottom rates shown in this thread.

[truenyer]

Need some help...

Bought house with then-fiancé in 2014. Title held in separate unmarried names.

Got married, wife changed last name. Refinanced in 2016 with mortgage held in married names, title not changed.

Just passed underwriting with Loan Depot, and they are saying I need to file a QCD to change title to show wife’s married name and that we are married.

That shouldn’t be required right? The mortgage and title names and marital status don’t have to match?? In WA.

[kski74]

Closed on LenderFi refinance yesterday. 32 days from application to closing date. Pretty smooth transaction. 2.75% 30-year refi with 0 pts and no closing costs. At closing, we did find a duplicate recording fee, which their attorney couldn't explain. Lenderfi is looking into it as it's a discrepancy from the final closing disclosure. This was our second refinance this year. Down from 4.375% at the start of the year to 2.75%!

[Goal33]

Closed on LenderFi refinance yesterday. 32 days from application to closing date. Pretty smooth transaction. 2.75% 30-year refi with 0 pts and no closing costs. At closing, we did find a duplicate recording fee, which their attorney couldn't explain. Lenderfi is looking into it as it's a discrepancy from the final closing disclosure. This was our second refinance this year. Down from 4.375% at the start of the year to 2.75%!

Thanks for the data point. Just curious on terminology. When people say “closed”, does that mean the notary showed up at the house and you signed it. Or does that mean the loan was funded, old loan paid off, etc. Thanks for any clarification.

[newbie20]

I have been occasional visitor here and just joined today.

First, thank you for all the helpful posts and sharing your experiences. It is because of these posts that I learned where and how to look for better rates.

Coming to my situation.

I am in Ohio, Original rate 3.39%, 30 yr

• I had almost closed my (but didn't) refinancing with Lender #1 at 2.99%, 30 yr with $500 closing cost.

• I was then offered 2.875% with $389 closing costs by Lender #2.

• Lender #1 would match 2.875% but increased closing costs to about $1,300.

• Thanks to this thread, I learnt about Better.com and LenderFi. I checked with Better.com but they were not willing to match or beat Lender #2 estimate.

• I then checked with LenderFi and they asked me to complete the application. LenderFi initially quoted 2.625% with $20 in closing costs and no escrow, but when I went to lock the rate, he offered 2.5% on the phone with escrow and about $450 closing costs (it would have been $800+ if I didn't do escrow). I locked that with them. They sent me a locked LE about 4 days letter after a follow up.

• I then went back to Lender #2 to check if they'd be willing to match it, and they said they would with $350 in closing costs and no escrow! I locked it in on 8/13 and had an appraisal done yesterday. As a bonus, they service their own loans, too

So, now I am at 2.5%, 30 yr, $285K loan (50% LTV), A+B+C is $300; E is $100 less Lender Credit $51 for a total closing cost of $349. I do plan to close with them.

Now, my question: should I withdraw my application from LenderFi and Lender #1? I really doubt I will be able to get a better deal than this. What would happen if you apply with a lender, do the documentation but then don't ask them to cancel and don't close with them?

I know this sounds a bit greedy on my part but am I doing anything unethical by leaving behind two lenders?

PS: These multiple dealings did ding my credit score by a few points

[RGB205]

Any thoughts on my current refi best offer?

Current situation: Mortgage Bal: $270,000 on 30 yr. fixed @3.625%. Opened in Aug. 2016 LTV% 84. P+I = $1339, Tax/Ins. = $428, Total Payment = $1768. I do make a payment of $1800 each month, for context, most recently that was an additional $32 towards P.

Best refi offer: 30 yr. fixed @ 2.625. A. Points .225% = $624, B. $64, C. $1035, A+B+C= $1723. I. Total Other Costs: Estimated @ ~ $4050. I will roll the estimated $5773 into the loan.

Based on the final costs, I estimate the new P+I payment to be around ~$1120. In addition, I will be adding MI ($51/mo.). New total will be P+I+Tax/Ins. = $1599. Being that I will continue making the $1800 I will begin making an additional ($201 - $32) $170 payment towards P. When MI falls off that will be $220.

I am thinking my rationale for doing the refi is sound. I am just wondering where others see this falling in terms of the best deal out there (being a 10) vs the worst deal out there (being a 1)? Is the juice worth the squeeze to try to work this lower at this point?

[BrandonBogle]

Best refi offer: 30 yr. fixed @ 2.625. A. Points .225% = $624, B. $64, C. $1035, A+B+C= $1723. I. Total Other Costs: Estimated @ ~ $4050. I will roll the estimated $5773 into the loan.

...

I am thinking my rationale for doing the refi is sound. I am just wondering where others see this falling in terms of the best deal out there (being a 10) vs the worst deal out there (being a 1)? Is the juice worth the squeeze to try to work this lower at this point?

What are the costs in Section E? What are the lender credits if this same lender gives you 2.75% instead of 2.625%. $624 isn’t bad and either rate is good, but hopefully without that $624 and a modest lender credit, this can be a no-cost refi.

I would give it an 8 currently, 9 if it becomes no-cost.

[RGB205]

Best refi offer: 30 yr. fixed @ 2.625. A. Points .225% = $624, B. $64, C. $1035, A+B+C= $1723. I. Total Other Costs: Estimated @ ~ $4050. I will roll the estimated $5773 into the loan.

...

I am thinking my rationale for doing the refi is sound. I am just wondering where others see this falling in terms of the best deal out there (being a 10) vs the worst deal out there (being a 1)? Is the juice worth the squeeze to try to work this lower at this point?

What are the costs in Section E? What are the lender credits if this same lender gives you 2.75% instead of 2.625%. $624 isn’t bad and either rate is good, but hopefully without that $624 and a modest lender credit, this can be a no-cost refi.

I would give it an 8 currently, 9 if it becomes no-cost.

Thank you for your comments. TBH, Section E., F., and G. of the LE became confusing to me in my attempt to compare local lender (X) to online lender (Y).

Local Lender X: $4048
E: $1510 (Recording & Other Tax: $110; Transfer Tax $1400)
F: $1158 (Home Ins. 2 mo.: $222; Prepaid Int. ($20.10 per day/15 days): $302; Property Tax - 2 mo.: $634)
G: $1378 (1 mo. Home Ins.: $111; Property Tax - 4 mo.: $1267)

Online Lender Y: $4178
E: $148 (Recording & Other: $110; Transfer Tax $38)
F: $2101 (Prepaid Int. $304; Property Tax - 6 mo. $1797)
G: $1929 (2 mo. Home Ins.: $132; Property Tax - 6 mo. $1797)

The 'best offer' I presented was from the online lender (Y). Local lender offer (X) was giving the 2.625% with a $1600 origination fee and a bunch of Misc. items in Section C. My big concern here with Section E: is that online lender (Y) does not have the $1400 Transfer Tax/ Tax Stamp. I will inquire about the no-cost refi @ 2.75%.

[BrandonBogle]

Thank you for your comments. TBH, Section E., F., and G. of the LE became confusing to me in my attempt to compare local lender (X) to online lender (Y).

Local Lender X: $4048
E: $1510 (Recording & Other Tax: $110; Transfer Tax $1400)
F: $1158 (Home Ins. 2 mo.: $222; Prepaid Int. ($20.10 per day/15 days): $302; Property Tax - 2 mo.: $634)
G: $1378 (1 mo. Home Ins.: $111; Property Tax - 4 mo.: $1267)

Online Lender Y: $4178
E: $148 (Recording & Other: $110; Transfer Tax $38)
F: $2101 (Prepaid Int. $304; Property Tax - 6 mo. $1797)
G: $1929 (2 mo. Home Ins.: $132; Property Tax - 6 mo. $1797)

The 'best offer' I presented was from the online lender (Y). Local lender offer (X) was giving the 2.625% with a $1600 origination fee and a bunch of Misc. items in Section C. My big concern here with Section E: is that online lender (Y) does not have the $1400 Transfer Tax/ Tax Stamp. I will inquire about the no-cost refi @ 2.75%.

Run for Lender Y! Do not stop at Go on the Monopoly Board! Legally they cannot charge you the extra $1,150 in transfer tax if they were supposed to apply it! Now, it is quite likely that Lender X shouldn’t have included it though.

But $1,723 + $38 is a great closing cost offer for 2.625%!

Edit to add:
For reference, https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cf ... te-en-172/

Costs that cannot increase at all

If there is a “change in circumstances,” these costs can change by any amount, but otherwise they cannot change at all:

• Fees paid to the lender, mortgage broker, or an affiliate of either the lender or mortgage broker for a required service
• Fees for required service that the lender did not allow you to shop separately for, when the provider is not affiliated with the lender or mortgage broker
• Transfer taxes

[kski74]

Closed on LenderFi refinance yesterday. 32 days from application to closing date. Pretty smooth transaction. 2.75% 30-year refi with 0 pts and no closing costs. At closing, we did find a duplicate recording fee, which their attorney couldn't explain. Lenderfi is looking into it as it's a discrepancy from the final closing disclosure. This was our second refinance this year. Down from 4.375% at the start of the year to 2.75%!

Thanks for the data point. Just curious on terminology. When people say “closed”, does that mean the notary showed up at the house and you signed it. Or does that mean the loan was funded, old loan paid off, etc. Thanks for any clarification.

I mean we signed the papers with their attorney yesterday. In MA, there is a 3 day "Right to Cancel" so old loan gets paid off next Wednesday.

[BrandonBogle]

Just sharing for reference how the 30-year average borrower, 30-year premium borrower, 15-year average borrower mortgage rates look from mid-May to mid-August.

Yes, you will see a spike the last few days. You will see it isn’t much different than mid-June and even after the current spike, we are still below the June low. We are basically back to where mid-July was.

[srt7]

Is there a limit on how long to wait before applying for a refi again? I bought (at 4.375% for 30 yr) in 2018 and refinanced (at 3.25% for 20 yr) in June 2020. Costed me $1,500. I wanted to play it safe so didn't wait. But now it looks like rates have dropped further and I might be able to do a 3% or lesser so getting that itch again. While I don't see a clause from my new lender restricting on refinancing I still wonder if there is a minimum amount of time that needs to pass before another refi.

Generally speaking. no. It varies by lender and if your lender does have a limit, they will tell you during the app or closing process in getting the loan. If you have a lender that does include such limitations, it is generally for a period of six months.

You will also find the new lender is difficult to work with if you don't have a mortgage statement for the loan you want to pay off. So while it can be done quickly, you will find it much easier to do after about 45 days.

Thank you.

[anon_investor]

Just sharing for reference how the 30-year average borrower, 30-year premium borrower, 15-year average borrower mortgage rates look from mid-May to mid-August.

Yes, you will see a spike the last few days. You will see it isn’t much different than mid-June and even after the current spike, we are still below the June low. We are basically back to where mid-July was.

I agree it is not THAT bad, especially for anyone that has not already done a refi this year. But remember the audience in this thread, probably the same people debating whether to convert VTSAX to VTI to save 1 basis point in ER . So this recent rate jump is likely giving many follows of this thread major heart burn, especially the ones that have already done 1 refi this year, already if not 2 .

[Shikoku]

In the most recent LE, the loan amount was adjusted to make $1,995 as the estimated cash to borrower at closing. Since then the prepaid property taxes have been removed. This results in $8k cash to borrower at closing in the "initial" closing disclosure. If I acknowledge it, the three day count-down to closing will start. Nothing else has changed.

I do not mind to borrow $8k at 2.5% rate with little bit extra monthly payment. However, I wonder if they are going to consider it as a cash-out refinance or if things will be straighten out before the closing. In my experience, if things are not corrected at this point, it becomes stressful at the end. So I plan not to acknowledge the "initial" closing disclosure until I have some clarity. Am I doing it right? Please share any thought and suggestion you might have. Thank you.

[C-man23]

Closed this morning on a 15 year fixed at 2.25% no cost with LoanDepot. Thanks to all in this thread! Glad it took LoanDepot awhile to process everything through (locked on 6/21) since I dropped from 2.875% to begin with all the way down to 2.25% (kept getting new LE from other sources and LoanDepot would beat them).

[BrandonBogle]

In the most recent LE, the loan amount was adjusted to make $1,995 as the estimated cash to borrower at closing. Since then the prepaid property taxes have been removed. This results in $8k cash to borrower at closing in the "initial" closing disclosure. If I acknowledge it, the three day count-down to closing will start. Nothing else has changed.

I do not mind to borrow $8k at 2.5% rate with little bit extra monthly payment. However, I wonder if they are going to consider it as a cash-out refinance or if things will be straighten out before the closing. In my experience, if things are not corrected at this point, it becomes stressful at the end. So I plan not to acknowledge the "initial" closing disclosure until I have some clarity. Am I doing it right? Please share any thought and suggestion you might have. Thank you.

When are your property taxes due? I hit a similar issue and my last ICD didn’t have that. It got corrected when the lender and settlement agent were balancing the numbers. I had also mentioned it to my closing contact at the lender. It eventually got added back in.

[BrandonBogle]

Closed this morning on a 15 year fixed at 2.25% no cost with LoanDepot. Thanks to all in this thread! Glad it took LoanDepot awhile to process everything through (locked on 6/21) since I dropped from 2.875% to begin with all the way down to 2.25% (kept getting new LE from other sources and LoanDepot would beat them).

Great job!!

[Shikoku]

In the most recent LE, the loan amount was adjusted to make $1,995 as the estimated cash to borrower at closing. Since then the prepaid property taxes have been removed. This results in $8k cash to borrower at closing in the "initial" closing disclosure. If I acknowledge it, the three day count-down to closing will start. Nothing else has changed.

I do not mind to borrow $8k at 2.5% rate with little bit extra monthly payment. However, I wonder if they are going to consider it as a cash-out refinance or if things will be straighten out before the closing. In my experience, if things are not corrected at this point, it becomes stressful at the end. So I plan not to acknowledge the "initial" closing disclosure until I have some clarity. Am I doing it right? Please share any thought and suggestion you might have. Thank you.

When are your property taxes due? I hit a similar issue and my last ICD didn’t have that. It got corrected when the lender and settlement agent were balancing the numbers. I had also mentioned it to my closing contact at the lender. It eventually got added back in.

My taxes are due in mid February. Should I acknowledge ICD and then sort it out?

[unstartable]

Yea, but if you're comparing different lenders, C shouldnt matter because those costs can be made the same in each loan by choosing your title company. If I did that with these loans I am considering it wouldnt be fair because one of them quoted way higher title fees which I know arent going to apply.

In theory, however some lenders require different title services.

For example, on our last refi, the local lender paid ALL title services - B was literally empty.

Meanwhile, on this refi...

Loan Cabin listed:

• Admin/Processing Fee
• Closing Protection Letter
• Lender's Endorsements
• Lender Title Insurance
• Recording Services
• Settlement Fee
• Title Insurance Binder

We're going with Better, who only list:

• Closing Protection Letter
• Lender's Endorsements
• Lender Title Insurance
• Settlement Fee

I’m leaning toward the lower rate now. I’m not looking forward to refinancing again. I can’t think of a good reason not to roll the extra in and go lower rate now.

The only benefit to the higher rate is more equity in the short term.

Edit: Even with the extra $4k in the loan and paying extra to keep the term the same it’s still a lower monthly payment.

For whatever it's worth, I happily paid $3K (at the time) in costs to refi from 4.250% to 3.250% the end of last year. Now I certainly wish I'd taken 3.375% or 3.500% for no cost. In this rate environment, I simply can't justify going out of pocket right now. To each their financial own, of course.

Yea, but at 2.625 coming out of pocket for nothing and only adding $4k to my loan as a result of prepaids/escrow, what is the downside?

There isn't one. All this talk of a "falling interest rate environment", how low can it go? Don't listen to the people trying to catch a falling knife and pocket a small lender rebate. The only downside is if you refinance in the next few years you wasted your money on this refinance.

[BrandonBogle]

My taxes are due in mid February. Should I acknowledge ICD and then sort it out?

Ahh, if they are due that far out, then they shouldn’t be in Secon F at all. I would still acknowledge the ICD as that is what triggers the three day waiting period for closing. Then Monday the disclosures can be updated, likely by reducing your loan amount to get under the $2k limit.

In my case, my lender emailed me the day before closing with “I will have to end up decreasing the loan amount anyways because the max cash to borrower is 2k for a rate and term.” This didn’t end up happening for me as my taxes are due Sept 1st, so they had to be collected at closing. Typically, if it is due within 60 or so days, it will be collected at closing per Fannie Mae guidelines (I say typically as the lender may not be trying to sell this loan to Fannie Mae).

[Shikoku]

My taxes are due in mid February. Should I acknowledge ICD and then sort it out?

Ahh, if they are due that far out, then they shouldn’t be in Secon F at all. I would still acknowledge the ICD as that is what triggers the three day waiting period for closing. Then Monday the disclosures can be updated, likely by reducing your loan amount to get under the $2k limit.

In my case, my lender emailed me the day before closing with “I will have to end up decreasing the loan amount anyways because the max cash to borrower is 2k for a rate and term.” This didn’t end up happening for me as my taxes are due Sept 1st, so they had to be collected at closing. Typically, if it is due within 60 or so days, it will be collected at closing per Fannie Mae guidelines (I say typically as the lender may not be trying to sell this loan to Fannie Mae).

Thank you BrandonBogle for the suggestion. I will acknowledge the ICD to get the process moving then. The ICD shows that they are paying about $200 prepaid interest and about $800 cash to me at closing because my lender credit is about $2,800 and ABCE about $1,800. If they say next week that they cannot pay that $800 because I do not have any more payments in sections F and G that will be a loss of $800!

[BrandonBogle]

My taxes are due in mid February. Should I acknowledge ICD and then sort it out?

Ahh, if they are due that far out, then they shouldn’t be in Secon F at all. I would still acknowledge the ICD as that is what triggers the three day waiting period for closing. Then Monday the disclosures can be updated, likely by reducing your loan amount to get under the $2k limit.

In my case, my lender emailed me the day before closing with “I will have to end up decreasing the loan amount anyways because the max cash to borrower is 2k for a rate and term.” This didn’t end up happening for me as my taxes are due Sept 1st, so they had to be collected at closing. Typically, if it is due within 60 or so days, it will be collected at closing per Fannie Mae guidelines (I say typically as the lender may not be trying to sell this loan to Fannie Mae).

Thank you BrandonBogle for the suggestion. I will acknowledge the ICD to get the process moving then. The ICD shows that they are paying about $200 prepaid interest and about $800 cash to me at closing because my lender credit is about $2,800 and ABCE about $1,800. If they say next week that they cannot pay that $800 because I do not have any more payments in sections F and G that will be a loss of $800!

If they say that, have your lender reduce your rate 0.125% to not waste the $800.

[Shikoku]

My taxes are due in mid February. Should I acknowledge ICD and then sort it out?

Ahh, if they are due that far out, then they shouldn’t be in Secon F at all. I would still acknowledge the ICD as that is what triggers the three day waiting period for closing. Then Monday the disclosures can be updated, likely by reducing your loan amount to get under the $2k limit.

In my case, my lender emailed me the day before closing with “I will have to end up decreasing the loan amount anyways because the max cash to borrower is 2k for a rate and term.” This didn’t end up happening for me as my taxes are due Sept 1st, so they had to be collected at closing. Typically, if it is due within 60 or so days, it will be collected at closing per Fannie Mae guidelines (I say typically as the lender may not be trying to sell this loan to Fannie Mae).

Thank you BrandonBogle for the suggestion. I will acknowledge the ICD to get the process moving then. The ICD shows that they are paying about $200 prepaid interest and about $800 cash to me at closing because my lender credit is about $2,800 and ABCE about $1,800. If they say next week that they cannot pay that $800 because I do not have any more payments in sections F and G that will be a loss of $800!

If they say that, have your lender reduce your rate 0.125% to not waste the $800.

Excellent idea, BrandonBogle. If they say that I have to waste $800, I will push to buy down the interest rate.

[Soares1234]

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.

I suggest no one saying they heard from boglehead. Just say you have a compiled list of lenders you are going through from bankrate.com

[Soares1234]

This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.

Look for the "Jumbo 30" text on this page: http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx

In the table showing the daily average rates it dropped a full 0.95% from yesterday.

Ah, I see. Thanks !

Did that happen in the morning? I am not seeing it anymore. In fact it increased.

Yep, it disappeared. I'm assuming it was a data entry error. My lender hadn't heard of a 95 basis point drop in the jumbo market. Got my hopes up ...

What’s re guys getting for Jumbo rates? ConsumerDirect has me at 2.875. Waiting to hear back on costs though

[chaalo_aavjo]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread! It's helped a lot.

We purchased our house last year at close to 4% (30yr fixed) so I had been monitoring the refi rates since March. Finally decided to start the application after rates dropped into the mid-2's in July. I applied with LF last week (loan amount is ~$400K) and received a quote for 2.50% with enough lender credits to basically make it a zero cost closing (assuming appraisal waiver goes through). While in the process of uploading the documents, the news about 0.5points fee came out so not sure how the final numbers will work out since there was no rate lock.

Luckily, I had sent the LE to the current lender to see if they'd match and was verbally told this week that they'll match both the rate and credits. I'm waiting to receive the LE from the current lender so let's see how it goes.

I'm hoping LF maintains the same quote when things go into processing despite the recent rate hike. Worst case, I can fall back on the quote from the current lender (given they also come through with the verbal offer).

Fingers crossed!!

[KATNYC]

Just got an email from the broker that we were not locked in at 2.375% with 1 point for 30 year fixed, $3,500 closing costs

Now the rate is 2.375% - 1.8pts fee which includes the 0.5pt hit from Fannie Mae that I told the broker about - https://guide.freddiemac.com/app/guide/bulletin/2020-32
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will add a 0.5 percentage point fee on most refinance loans to compensate for Covid related economic and market uncertainty effective Sept. 1.

or 30 fixed - 2.5% - 1pt fee
$3,500 estimated closing costs

NYC apartment
$169,000 loan
Value $600,000
10/1 ARM 3.375%

I can float the rate but am disappointed since I sent everything required to lock the 2.375% rate.

[joelly]

I just closed on a Lender Fi 30 year fixed 2.75% with $400 closing costs.

Wow congratulations!

We are looking for refinance too. How did you get such low interest rate? Does it depend on loan-to-value ratio? I hope you don’t mind me asking.

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of you who did the AmEx offer with Better.com, how long does it take for the statement credit to hit?

[cb474]

This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.

Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.

[anon_investor]

This whole Watermark-Bogleheads thing seems odd to me, I wonder if it depends on the loan officer. When I initially got my quote, the LO asked me where I heard about them and I mentioned Bogleheads. That didn't seem to cause any issues and I ended up applying, but perhaps this is a recent development.

I do think they are extremely busy right now. I hadn't heard anything for a while so I contacted my LO this week and she said she's waiting on some title items and then will submit everything at once to the underwriters for review. I have every intention of going though with this loan.

Yes, as I stated, I think it's a recent development. When I first spoke to Watermark a couple weeks ago and mentioned Bogleheads it meant nothing to them. But a couple days ago I got a big speech about it. It may have just taken them time to put two and two together.

Killed the goose that laid the golden egg...