Refinance Mega Thread

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
drdh
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:11 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by drdh »

Soares1234 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:56 pm
drdh wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:18 am Locked yesterday with Loan Depot at 2.625% 30 yr con LTV 74%. Appraisal waived. No escrow (apparently this does not make a difference in CA?).

A = $1,595
B = $112
C = $1,470
Lender credit = $2,035
(Edit: loan amount = $745k)

Any opinions? Should I move forward? LenderFi this morning said to go with it. Am new to refinancing but have benefited a lot from posts on this thread, so thank you all very much!!!
Loan amount?
$745k (that’s under the conforming limit in my county).

Update: a few LOs at other frequently-mentioned lenders advised (today) to move forward with it. Which I will. Especially given the news about Fannie and Freddie.
Monsterflockster
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:03 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Monsterflockster »

drdh wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:01 pm
Soares1234 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:56 pm
drdh wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:18 am Locked yesterday with Loan Depot at 2.625% 30 yr con LTV 74%. Appraisal waived. No escrow (apparently this does not make a difference in CA?).

A = $1,595
B = $112
C = $1,470
Lender credit = $2,035
(Edit: loan amount = $745k)

Any opinions? Should I move forward? LenderFi this morning said to go with it. Am new to refinancing but have benefited a lot from posts on this thread, so thank you all very much!!!
Loan amount?
$745k (that’s under the conforming limit in my county).

Update: a few LOs at other frequently-mentioned lenders advised (today) to move forward with it. Which I will. Especially given the news about Fannie and Freddie.
Loan officer told me no escrow costs 1/8 of a point and is a fee from Fannie & Freddie.
ChiKid24
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:43 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

JSDNJ wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:13 pm
ChiKid24 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:33 pm
sabhen wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:11 pm Being offered 2.375% with 2 points with Rocket Mortgage (30 year fixed). Need to decide today. Loan amount: $490k, House value estimate: $850k in CA. Estimated costs: $10k. Monthly saving: $139. payback: 72 month (6 years). I need to decide today.

Thoughts?
That's a lot of points and a pretty high payback. What are you currently at? Why not look into zero cost to lock in some savings and give you flexibility without needing the pay anything out of pocket?
He’s not getting a rate that low with no cost.
Of course he's not. But could he get 2.625 or 2.75% at no cost? That was my point.
ChiKid24
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:43 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

sabhen wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:24 pm
ChiKid24 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:33 pm
sabhen wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:11 pm
Being offered 2.375% with 2 points with Rocket Mortgage (30 year fixed). Need to decide today. Loan amount: $490k, House value estimate: $850k in CA. Estimated costs: $10k. Monthly saving: $139. payback: 72 month (6 years). I need to decide today.

Thoughts?
That's a lot of points and a pretty high payback. What are you currently at? Why not look into zero cost to lock in some savings and give you flexibility without needing the pay anything out of pocket?
He’s not getting a rate that low with no cost.
I am currently paying 2.975% for a 10 year ARM (30-year total) with more than 9 years to go before a reset. This refinance will be with the same company. I want to keep the property for retirement with pool and within 3 miles from the beach. The company will waive the appraisal.
If you value being with the same lender and you are comfortable with this deal then take it. For me personally, I see mortgages like a commodity so it's all about bottom line. The lender means nothing to me so long as they can deliver on their offer.

I know I wouldn't want to pay $10k in a falling rate environment when you might be able to get that rate in a month at zero cost. If you don't shop around you are not likely to get the best offer. Lots of names of lenders you can reach out to on this thread. I'd tell them you are looking to do zero cost refi with a lender credit that covers the closing costs and see what you can get. I might not be a lot lower than your current 10yr ARM, but you'll be capped at the rate for 30 years and have flexibility to refi it at a lower rate if rates continue to fall because it hasn't cost you a thing.
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 4484
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by anon_investor »

ChiKid24 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:08 am
sabhen wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:24 pm
ChiKid24 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:33 pm
sabhen wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:11 pm
Being offered 2.375% with 2 points with Rocket Mortgage (30 year fixed). Need to decide today. Loan amount: $490k, House value estimate: $850k in CA. Estimated costs: $10k. Monthly saving: $139. payback: 72 month (6 years). I need to decide today.

Thoughts?
That's a lot of points and a pretty high payback. What are you currently at? Why not look into zero cost to lock in some savings and give you flexibility without needing the pay anything out of pocket?
He’s not getting a rate that low with no cost.
I am currently paying 2.975% for a 10 year ARM (30-year total) with more than 9 years to go before a reset. This refinance will be with the same company. I want to keep the property for retirement with pool and within 3 miles from the beach. The company will waive the appraisal.
If you value being with the same lender and you are comfortable with this deal then take it. For me personally, I see mortgages like a commodity so it's all about bottom line. The lender means nothing to me so long as they can deliver on their offer.

I know I wouldn't want to pay $10k in a falling rate environment when you might be able to get that rate in a month at zero cost. If you don't shop around you are not likely to get the best offer. Lots of names of lenders you can reach out to on this thread. I'd tell them you are looking to do zero cost refi with a lender credit that covers the closing costs and see what you can get. I might not be a lot lower than your current 10yr ARM, but you'll be capped at the rate for 30 years and have flexibility to refi it at a lower rate if rates continue to fall because it hasn't cost you a thing.
+1, very well said.
cb474
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:49 pm I understand what you are saying. But the reports from people getting quotes today here and on Slickdeals is that pricing went up 0.125% or around $1,500 in costs for the same rate. Now, that market is large and there are plenty of crappy lenders, but hopefully none of us Bogleheads are working with such lenders.

Btw, both my LenderFi and Better unlocked apps have 0.125% higher for $250 less in lender credits than yesterday, so about $750 in adverse pricing for me as my loans are roughly $500 for each 0.125% (rough generalization). But I’m also just a single anecdotal report from three lenders (my third was quoting on their webpage, not an app).
Right, if you shop around and look for the best deals, like many people in this thread, and you're willing to play lenders off of each other, then the impact may be what one would more rationally expect, a .5% fee increase on the loan amount. But for the overall mortgage market it was a crazy mess that may or may not sort itself out soon--and it will hurt a lot of people who have no idea what's going on. Especially for purchasers. It's crazy that they may have to pay higher fees on loans, because of something Fannie Mae did only on refinances.
valleyrock
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:12 am

LenderFi communications on rates, etc.

Post by valleyrock »

I filed a refi application toLenderFi and have responded to the assigned loan manager in an email and IM that I'd sure like to discuss what interest rates they would offer us. The discussion would be nonbinding, of course.

LenderFi now sent the whole kit and kaboodle for us to electronically sign and move forward. Again, I replied to the email that I'd like to discuss rates before everyone goes to all the trouble, unlocking all our credit reports (3 for me, 3 for DW).

Oh, another ask: my wife has the regular paycheck and good savings/investments etc., where as I work part-time and am self employed. Normally, we apply for loans like this with her listed as the main applicant (with me along for the ride), but this time, I forgot that and fired off the application with me listed first. Then, in another email/IM to LenderFi I also asked about whether they should put her as the sole or primary borrower, or whether we ought to just re-apply, or what?

Any thoughts/advice on these two issues would be much appreciated.
Jags4186
Posts: 5365
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: LenderFi communications on rates, etc.

Post by Jags4186 »

valleyrock wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:35 am I filed a refi application toLenderFi and have responded to the assigned loan manager in an email and IM that I'd sure like to discuss what interest rates they would offer us. The discussion would be nonbinding, of course.

LenderFi now sent the whole kit and kaboodle for us to electronically sign and move forward. Again, I replied to the email that I'd like to discuss rates before everyone goes to all the trouble, unlocking all our credit reports (3 for me, 3 for DW).

Oh, another ask: my wife has the regular paycheck and good savings/investments etc., where as I work part-time and am self employed. Normally, we apply for loans like this with her listed as the main applicant (with me along for the ride), but this time, I forgot that and fired off the application with me listed first. Then, in another email/IM to LenderFi I also asked about whether they should put her as the sole or primary borrower, or whether we ought to just re-apply, or what?

Any thoughts/advice on these two issues would be much appreciated.
They likely won't really discuss your rates without your checking your credit. Whatever they talk about can be changed once they pull.
FiscallyResponsible
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by FiscallyResponsible »

Anyone refinancing w/Loan Cabin have any tips to get a response? I sent inquiry 7/31, received email asking me to clarify a couple items, I responded same day, then submitted application 8/4. I sent a follow up to the automated broker response to my application on 8/4.... Radio silence since then. I expected slow... but are things ~2 weeks backed up with no communication?
exarkun
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by exarkun »

exarkun wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:37 pm See today's change :x

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx
Up even more...
VCC
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:19 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by VCC »

exarkun wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:51 am
exarkun wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:37 pm See today's change :x

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx
Up even more...
Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
jimmyrules712
Posts: 608
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jimmyrules712 »

VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am
exarkun wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:51 am
exarkun wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:37 pm See today's change :x

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx
Up even more...
Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
My understanding is jumbos cannot be sold to Fannie Mae so this new fee doesn't apply to them so going forward they might get better rates.
drk
Posts: 1966
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:33 pm
Location: Puget Sound

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by drk »

VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
Praise be! I’m checking in with some LOs today to see if they see it, too.
User avatar
gas_balloon
Posts: 1076
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by gas_balloon »

VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.
Katz
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:06 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Katz »

jdbst56 wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:40 pm Amfed came back today and offered 2.875 on 30 yr fixed. 174k loan. They waived the appraisal. It would cost me about $2500 to close the deal not including prepaids. Yesterday before the Fannie/Freddie announcement it was 2.75. I’m currently at 3.375. So far their offer is the best even with the increase but not sure if I should stand pat for a while? Thoughts?
Did you check out Figure.com ?
jimmyrules712
Posts: 608
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:36 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by jimmyrules712 »

gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am
VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.
Look for the "Jumbo 30" text on this page: http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx

In the table showing the daily average rates it dropped a full 0.95% from yesterday.
e5116
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:22 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by e5116 »

jimmyrules712 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:44 am
gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am
VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.
Look for the "Jumbo 30" text on this page: http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx

In the table showing the daily average rates it dropped a full 0.95% from yesterday.
That has to be one of the largest drops on record. Almost a 1% change overnight! I still don't' really understand why the huge movement there....I get that conforming would be MORE expensive due to the announcement, but would view Jumbo as unaffected. I suppose it has to do with investor demand for certain products or something....
sdjewel
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by sdjewel »

lender's playing games. They are greedy similar to fannie Mae and freddie MAC.

today 10 yr treasury is down and if reprice was done yesterday no reason to go up.

Again someone said mortgage is commodity and 2 weeks all lenders ( this wholesale cheap lenders) would start fighting against each other for bussiness and expect rates to stabilize with $1500 hit not more.
exarkun wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:51 am
exarkun wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:37 pm See today's change :x

http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx
Up even more...
ymmt
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:59 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ymmt »

Would take it with a grain of salt unless people are actually printing Jumbos in the 2% range. I will say that the rates I've been looking at have trended lower finally, but are all still low 3s
User avatar
gas_balloon
Posts: 1076
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by gas_balloon »

jimmyrules712 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:44 am
gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am
VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.
Look for the "Jumbo 30" text on this page: http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx

In the table showing the daily average rates it dropped a full 0.95% from yesterday.
Ah, I see. Thanks !
User avatar
gas_balloon
Posts: 1076
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by gas_balloon »

Anyone know any good low-cost online lenders besides LD that do jumbo loans in california?
mervinj7
Posts: 1607
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mervinj7 »

gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:28 pm Anyone know any good low-cost online lenders besides LD that do jumbo loans in california?
I contacted Loan Depot this morning and they are not doing jumbo loans in CA right now.
ephu437
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:24 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ephu437 »

My wife and I just decided to refinance, to take advantage of low rates. Of course, my first step is to check in at the Bogleheads forum to get the lay of the land and advice that fits my approach to finances and investing. This thread, unfortunately, is rather overwhelming. I expect that it contains all the answers I might seek, but I've no idea how to find them.

Our current mortgage is for about $280k (home value $435k), 4%, 30yr (21 yr remaining), with P+I $1630/month. Our goal is to save money by taking advantage of the low interest rates. We will probably be in the house for a while, and can afford to increase our monthly payments.

My questions cluster around two issues: First, when is it a good idea to buy points, and how many? Second, how to find or shop for the best rates?

Cheers!
nptit
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nptit »

djeayzonne wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:34 pm
nptit wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:31 pm Just got a quote from a local lender(TX), here are the details:
  • 30 yrs fixed rate @2.625% no cost
  • 3700 credits are given to cover all the cost
  • loan remaining amount 440K



current mortgage
  • 15 yrs fixed rate @2.875%
  • loan starts at 469K


My ideal target rate is 2.5%, worth to wait for a bit?
Which lender?

I would just start the process with the agreement of a rate adjustment of rates are lower by the time you close.
It is a local lender in TX. We locked the rate this Monday, I believe it went up a bit now.
Firemenot
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Firemenot »

I’ve contacted Watermark mentioned throughout this thread multiple times — both phone and email. I can’t get anyone to actually contact me and start the mortgage process. They must be totally overloaded. I’ve pretty much given up on them.
Burningmustard
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:11 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Burningmustard »

batpot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:54 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:06 pm
batpot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
nic3456 wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:50 am
Burningmustard wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:27 am Is refinancing a mortgage and HELCO into a single mortgage considered a cashout? Combined they are about 60% LTV.

Thanks!
Yes
No it's not.
The HELOC is treated as a 2nd mortgage, and you replace the 1st and 2nd mortgages with 1 new mortgage.
The sum balance on both is used to to calculate your LTV.
I concur with Nic. It is considered a cash-out since the HELOC is an open-ended loan vs. a HEL (home equity loan, not line of credit). There is nothing preventing someone with a HELOC of $0 out of $50k from taking out the $50k a week before closing. That is a cash-out.

Now, the lender may not charge any penalty for this. When I did my refi in 2017, it made no difference.
I interpreted the question differently:
Burningmustard currently has a balance on the HELOC, and is looking to refinance the primary and the HELOC.

I did just this last year, and closed the HELOC in the process, which was a requirement for the refi.
Looks like Loan Depot is treating it as a cashout. Any feedback on the below would be greatly appreciated.

Refi primary ($188K) and HELOC ($74K) into 30 year.
Property Value $475K
Loan amount $265,000
Rate 2.99%
A: $1,595
B: $562 (Includes $450 for appraisal)
C:$1,175
E: $514

$209 lender credit

I know cashouts aren't as common here, but does the above seem like a fair deal? I tried to get appraisal waived. Is there a typical rate bump for cashout? I think I saw 3/8 earlier in this thread. Thanks!
Last edited by Burningmustard on Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
InvestDoc
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:54 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by InvestDoc »

Firemenot wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:39 pm I’ve contacted Watermark mentioned throughout this thread multiple times — both phone and email. I can’t get anyone to actually contact me and start the mortgage process. They must be totally overloaded. I’ve pretty much given up on them.

I emailed a contact at Watermark and never heard back, and when I called their call center I was given rates that were ~0.25% higher than what I got elsewhere. They don't seem competitive right now (at least in my situation for 30 year fixed high balance conforming).
ChiKid24
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:43 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

ephu437 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:32 pm My wife and I just decided to refinance, to take advantage of low rates. Of course, my first step is to check in at the Bogleheads forum to get the lay of the land and advice that fits my approach to finances and investing. This thread, unfortunately, is rather overwhelming. I expect that it contains all the answers I might seek, but I've no idea how to find them.

Our current mortgage is for about $280k (home value $435k), 4%, 30yr (21 yr remaining), with P+I $1630/month. Our goal is to save money by taking advantage of the low interest rates. We will probably be in the house for a while, and can afford to increase our monthly payments.

My questions cluster around two issues: First, when is it a good idea to buy points, and how many? Second, how to find or shop for the best rates?

Cheers!
The general consensus on this thread is to never buy points. In today's interest rate environment (despite an uptick this week due to a new fee being added), you will likely be able to come down significantly from your 4% rate. You don't mention your state of residence and not all lenders are licensed in every state, but the names on this thread that you want to reach out to are: Better.com, Owning.com (CA only I believe), Loan Depot, Lenderfi, Watermark, Loan Cabin.

If I'm you, I reach out to all and get pricing for a 15-year or 20-year and tell them you want it on a no cost basis. Basically that means you take a little higher than market rate, but get a lender credit to cover the typical loan costs. Think of it like negative points. You want a credit that covers all the costs in Sections A, B, C and E of the official loan estimate each lender provides.

You will need to fill out a formal application and likely OK a hard credit pull for each lender to give you the loan estimate. But each hard credit pull won't incrementally impact your credit score. Once the first pull is made, you have a 2-3 week grace period and can have additional pulls from other lenders that won't harm your score. The credit agencies do this so that you can shop around. Once you have a couple of loan estimates, you can play those off each lender to get them to compete.

My guess is in the current rate environment, you should be able to get 3% or lower on a no cost basis for a 15 or 20 year loan. I would have said 2.5% or lower, but things changed a little this week. Regardless, you will be better off than your current 4% loan and it won't cost you a dime to do it. Good luck!
cb474
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.
WaffleCone
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:48 pm

Watermark closing times?

Post by WaffleCone »

WaffleCone wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:02 pm Loan Depot
30 year fixed, 330K includes paying off HELOC and cash out.
No appraisal. 59% LTV.
2.875% (current rate is 3.75%)

$3950 closing costs not including prepaids. (A+B+C=$4750 less $800 in discount points).
Some of that $3950 includes a "non-negotiable" $1595 in origination.
Decided to go with Watermark instead. Settled on 2.75% with $2000 in closing costs not including prepaids (PA Title isn't cheap). I think this is a good rate considering I'm taking cash out.

My loan has been in processing for over a week, all info was provided and loan agreements signed online. How long are they taking to close? Was hoping for around 30 days.
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Shikoku »

Burningmustard wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:42 pm
batpot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:54 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:06 pm
batpot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
nic3456 wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:50 am

Yes
No it's not.
The HELOC is treated as a 2nd mortgage, and you replace the 1st and 2nd mortgages with 1 new mortgage.
The sum balance on both is used to to calculate your LTV.
I concur with Nic. It is considered a cash-out since the HELOC is an open-ended loan vs. a HEL (home equity loan, not line of credit). There is nothing preventing someone with a HELOC of $0 out of $50k from taking out the $50k a week before closing. That is a cash-out.

Now, the lender may not charge any penalty for this. When I did my refi in 2017, it made no difference.
I interpreted the question differently:
Burningmustard currently has a balance on the HELOC, and is looking to refinance the primary and the HELOC.

I did just this last year, and closed the HELOC in the process, which was a requirement for the refi.
Looks like Loan Depot is treating it as a cashout. Any feedback on the below would be greatly appreciated.

Refi primary ($188K) and HELOC ($74K) into 30 year.
Property Value $475K
Loan amount $265,000
Rate 2.99%
A: $1,595
B: $562 (Includes $450 for appraisal)
C:$1,175
E: $514

$209 lender credit

I know cashouts aren't as common here, but does the above seem like a fair deal? I tried to get appraisal waived. Is there a typical rate bump for cashout? I think I saw 3/8 earlier in this thread. Thanks!
It is not a good offer. However, if it is considered a cash-out, I am unsure if you can get much better.

In a related note, if refinancing the primary mortgage plus a HELOC into a single mortgage is not considered a cash-out, we can easily imitate a cash-out refinancing using HELOC strategy and refinance again without waiting for six months which is required after a cash-out refinancing.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Shikoku »

cb474 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:51 pm I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.
So nobody should tell that they are from Bogleheads. Problem solved!
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
User avatar
truenyer
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:39 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by truenyer »

Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:25 pm
cb474 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:51 pm I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.
So nobody should tell that they are from Bogleheads. Problem solved!
I mean... yeah. I would just say a friend had a really good experience.
User avatar
ray.james
Posts: 1414
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:08 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ray.james »

gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:27 pm
jimmyrules712 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:44 am
gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am
VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.
Look for the "Jumbo 30" text on this page: http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx

In the table showing the daily average rates it dropped a full 0.95% from yesterday.
Ah, I see. Thanks !
Did that happen in the morning? I am not seeing it anymore. In fact it increased.
When in doubt, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939
mervinj7
Posts: 1607
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mervinj7 »

ray.james wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:29 pm
gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:27 pm
jimmyrules712 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:44 am
gas_balloon wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am
VCC wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:55 am Jumbo 30 yr had a huge drop today. Lower than conforming now.
This more for my knowledge - how do you determine that Jumbo is lower than confirming today? I don't see that in the MND link.. or I am probably not reading it right.
Look for the "Jumbo 30" text on this page: http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/mortga ... daily.aspx

In the table showing the daily average rates it dropped a full 0.95% from yesterday.
Ah, I see. Thanks !
Did that happen in the morning? I am not seeing it anymore. In fact it increased.
Yep, it disappeared. I'm assuming it was a data entry error. My lender hadn't heard of a 95 basis point drop in the jumbo market. Got my hopes up ...
Burningmustard
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:11 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Burningmustard »

Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:21 pm
Burningmustard wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:42 pm
batpot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:54 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:06 pm
batpot wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:57 am
No it's not.
The HELOC is treated as a 2nd mortgage, and you replace the 1st and 2nd mortgages with 1 new mortgage.
The sum balance on both is used to to calculate your LTV.
I concur with Nic. It is considered a cash-out since the HELOC is an open-ended loan vs. a HEL (home equity loan, not line of credit). There is nothing preventing someone with a HELOC of $0 out of $50k from taking out the $50k a week before closing. That is a cash-out.

Now, the lender may not charge any penalty for this. When I did my refi in 2017, it made no difference.
I interpreted the question differently:
Burningmustard currently has a balance on the HELOC, and is looking to refinance the primary and the HELOC.

I did just this last year, and closed the HELOC in the process, which was a requirement for the refi.
Looks like Loan Depot is treating it as a cashout. Any feedback on the below would be greatly appreciated.

Refi primary ($188K) and HELOC ($74K) into 30 year.
Property Value $475K
Loan amount $265,000
Rate 2.99%
A: $1,595
B: $562 (Includes $450 for appraisal)
C:$1,175
E: $514

$209 lender credit

I know cashouts aren't as common here, but does the above seem like a fair deal? I tried to get appraisal waived. Is there a typical rate bump for cashout? I think I saw 3/8 earlier in this thread. Thanks!
It is not a good offer. However, if it is considered a cash-out, I am unsure if you can get much better.

In a related note, if refinancing the primary mortgage plus a HELOC into a single mortgage is not considered a cash-out, we can easily imitate a cash-out refinancing using HELOC strategy and refinance again without waiting for six months which is required after a cash-out refinancing.
Yes, that’s my challenge. It appears cash out is my only option, and some lenders (lender fi) won’t even do cash outs. Might just have to take what I can get, unless there are any good cash out lender recommendations. Thanks!
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Shikoku »

Yesterday I noticed that my loan processor at Better was kind of in a rush to move the loan to underwriting. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the extra 0.50% cost that will get added from September 1. Today Better has adjusted the payoff amount and issued a revised LE, which indicates that their goal is to close the loan in August because they are not planning to send interest for more than three days of September.

My loan has still some hurdles to go through which is noncooperation of my present lender. CFPB is aware of what is going on. So we will see.
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

My second refi of 2020 closed today, without any major issues. It was a bit of a bumpy ride. The person working my file for closing was nowhere near as responsive and effective as my loan officer. So up until 15 minutes before closing, there were still revisions to my closing disclosures. My loan amount changed 4 times in the past 24 hours. But in the end, it all looked good and the settlement agent forced them to honor the lender credits from the higher loan even after they reduced the size of my loan. Now I wait for funding.

For those who ask for such things, NC, $150k loan, 48% LTV, $1,300 in closing costs (D + E), $7,500 in credits, netting me $6,200 after all is settled up.

Please keep in mind, that I could have done a 2.25% 15-year with $1k in the end, but instead went to a higher rate to maximize profit and plan on refi # 3 to bring my rate down. So while I am earning $6k+, I don't have a 2.x% rate.
Shikoku
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:01 pm
Location: USA

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Shikoku »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:18 pm My second refi of 2020 closed today, without any major issues. It was a bit of a bumpy ride. The person working my file for closing was nowhere near as responsive and effective as my loan officer. So up until 15 minutes before closing, there were still revisions to my closing disclosures. My loan amount changed 4 times in the past 24 hours. But in the end, it all looked good and the settlement agent forced them to honor the lender credits from the higher loan even after they reduced the size of my loan. Now I wait for funding.

For those who ask for such things, NC, $150k loan, 48% LTV, $1,300 in closing costs (D + E), $7,500 in credits, netting me $6,200 after all is settled up.

Please keep in mind, that I could have done a 2.25% 15-year with $1k in the end, but instead went to a higher rate to maximize profit and plan on refi # 3 to bring my rate down. So while I am earning $6k+, I don't have a 2.x% rate.
Congratulations! Now you can refinance at 2.x% rate. The $6k+ is yours to keep! :beer
"I don't worry too much about pointing fingers at the past. I operate on the theory that every saint has a past, every sinner has a future." -- Warren Buffett
cb474
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

pianos101 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:28 pm
Shikoku wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:25 pm
cb474 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:51 pm I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.
So nobody should tell that they are from Bogleheads. Problem solved!
I mean... yeah. I would just say a friend had a really good experience.
Yes, obviously there are easy ways around this. I was just giving people a heads up.
ChiKid24
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:43 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:18 pm My second refi of 2020 closed today, without any major issues. It was a bit of a bumpy ride. The person working my file for closing was nowhere near as responsive and effective as my loan officer. So up until 15 minutes before closing, there were still revisions to my closing disclosures. My loan amount changed 4 times in the past 24 hours. But in the end, it all looked good and the settlement agent forced them to honor the lender credits from the higher loan even after they reduced the size of my loan. Now I wait for funding.

For those who ask for such things, NC, $150k loan, 48% LTV, $1,300 in closing costs (D + E), $7,500 in credits, netting me $6,200 after all is settled up.

Please keep in mind, that I could have done a 2.25% 15-year with $1k in the end, but instead went to a higher rate to maximize profit and plan on refi # 3 to bring my rate down. So while I am earning $6k+, I don't have a 2.x% rate.
Congrats. Would suggest to you and anyone else to make sure to check your post-closing calculations based on the actual day the loan funds. You will typically get a refund back from your old lender as well as the new. In the closing docs the new lender typically includes a few extra days of interest in their payoff request to the old lender, so I always check the refund from the paid off lender as well as the prepaid interest calc from the new lender.

Here's an example from the loan I closed last week which funded on 8/13 this week.
  • Lenderfi final closing docs had prepaid interest for 21 days (8/11-9/1) in the closing docs
  • he payoff in the closing docs had accrued for interest for 15 days (8/1-8/15). The couple days cushion just in case there's a delay
Since the loan was funded on 8/13 (confirmed on Better's website), I am due back 3 days interest from Better and 2 days pre-paid interest from Lenderfi[/list]
  • I checked my Better account and they show the proper refund coming my way
  • I called Lenderfi and they said I will be getting a check for 1 day interest. This is not correct as my loan was funded two days after they had estimated (8/13 actual vs 8/11 in closing docs)
So basically what's happening is I'm being charged interest from both lenders for 8/12. Since the loan wasn't funded until 8/13, Better should get paid for 8/12. The refund they showed me is correct. Lenderfi should not start getting interest until 8/13. Since they are only paying me one day back, they are also charging me for 8/12. I told the Lenderfi guy about the error, and he is going to check on it and get back to me.

It's a minor adjustment (about $50 in my case), but I do wonder if this stuff happens all the time and lenders make a mountain of nickels from volume since nobody checks the work and does the math!
cb474
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by cb474 »

ChiKid24 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:31 pmIt's a minor adjustment (about $50 in my case), but I do wonder if this stuff happens all the time and lenders make a mountain of nickels from volume since nobody checks the work and does the math!
Thanks for pointing this out.

I feel like I find a surprising amount of basic mistakes on loan documents and I seem to be one of the few who reads everything. I would not be surprised if differences like this are just sloppiness. As it's said, why attribute to maliciousness, what can be explained through simple incompetence?
KeepinItPositive
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:46 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by KeepinItPositive »

My rate lock expires on the 17th and am not yet clear to close with better (My understanding is the delay is on their end)

With this new fee I am concerned they will not extend the rate lock. Anyone have any experience or reasonable guesses as to how this might play out?
User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 3627
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

KeepinItPositive wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:59 pm My rate lock expires on the 17th and am not yet clear to close with better (My understanding is the delay is on their end)

With this new fee I am concerned they will not extend the rate lock. Anyone have any experience or reasonable guesses as to how this might play out?
Nothing to worry about. My rate lock was set to expire today at 5 pm Eastern. Wednesday morning my lock said expiring 8/14 and Wednesday evening it said expiring 8/19, which is my disbursement date. I said nothing to Better and my pricing did not change. In my case, the delay was also because of them.
KeepinItPositive
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:46 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by KeepinItPositive »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:51 pm
KeepinItPositive wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:59 pm My rate lock expires on the 17th and am not yet clear to close with better (My understanding is the delay is on their end)

With this new fee I am concerned they will not extend the rate lock. Anyone have any experience or reasonable guesses as to how this might play out?
Nothing to worry about. My rate lock was set to expire today at 5 pm Eastern. Wednesday morning my lock said expiring 8/14 and Wednesday evening it said expiring 8/19, which is my disbursement date. I said nothing to Better and my pricing did not change. In my case, the delay was also because of them.
That’s encouraging, thanks for chiming in
pindevil
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:04 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by pindevil »

GRAZ wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:52 pm Has anyone received their AMEX statement credit after closing their refi with better? I closed mine about 4 weeks ago and have not seen the statement credit yet. I assume that I just need to be patient and wait a few more weeks but would like to see what others have experienced.
It took 7 weeks for me after the loan was funded.

6/2 (8:15am) - Pre-approved for loan from better.com using amex offer
6/2 (5:45pm) - Applied and approved for American Express "Blue" card
6/2 (6:45pm) - Rate lock with better.com
6/23 - Loan is funded
8/14 - Statement credit
VSPD1
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:37 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by VSPD1 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:18 pm My second refi of 2020 closed today, without any major issues. It was a bit of a bumpy ride. The person working my file for closing was nowhere near as responsive and effective as my loan officer. So up until 15 minutes before closing, there were still revisions to my closing disclosures. My loan amount changed 4 times in the past 24 hours. But in the end, it all looked good and the settlement agent forced them to honor the lender credits from the higher loan even after they reduced the size of my loan. Now I wait for funding.

For those who ask for such things, NC, $150k loan, 48% LTV, $1,300 in closing costs (D + E), $7,500 in credits, netting me $6,200 after all is settled up.

Please keep in mind, that I could have done a 2.25% 15-year with $1k in the end, but instead went to a higher rate to maximize profit and plan on refi # 3 to bring my rate down. So while I am earning $6k+, I don't have a 2.x% rate.
Would you pls share the rate you closed and lender name. Thank you.
FS51
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:15 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by FS51 »

I've been watching rates since March but due to outside forces haven't been ready to refinance yet. We're looking at a jumbo refi at approximately 70% LTV. Current rate is just over 4%!! Rates I've been seeing have been low 3s at little or no cost. With this new bs .5 money grab is there any expectation that jumbos could continue to come down as they, in theory, shouldn't be impacted by this artificial rate increase?
BarDownHockey
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:58 pm

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BarDownHockey »

FS51 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:07 pm I've been watching rates since March but due to outside forces haven't been ready to refinance yet. We're looking at a jumbo refi at approximately 70% LTV. Current rate is just over 4%!! Rates I've been seeing have been low 3s at little or no cost. With this new bs .5 money grab is there any expectation that jumbos could continue to come down as they, in theory, shouldn't be impacted by this artificial rate increase?
Honestly, if you can get into the low 3s for little / no cost on a jumbo, id do that all day long right now. If you’re at 70% LTV with over 4% as your rate, you’ll save a ton of money on interest getting into the low 3s. And if you can do it for no cost, if rates continue to drop, you can always refi again.

The jumbo market has been wacky this year. It’s really difficult to predict because there are so few banks offering jumbo refi’s, and even fewer brokers because they don’t have many investors to sell the loan servicing too.
mbasherp
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:48 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mbasherp »

cb474 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:51 pm I just spoke with someone at Watermark. They asked me where I heard about them and when I said Bogleheads, they told me that they've been having a lot of problems with people from the Bogleheads forum, who start loans, go through the process, and then bail at the last minute, wasting their time.

So they said they would not provide a loan estimate, unless I was going ahead with the application with them and not proceeding or locked with anyone else. And that I would need to provide evidence that I had cancelled any applications with other lenders (in the form of a letter of cancellation or something--which I honestly can't imagine another lender would spend the time to send someone--"Hey, I'm cancelling, but can you do something for me?"--that makes no sense). Anyway, FYI. Bogleheads now has a bad reputation with Watermark.
What a disappointment. This would explain Watermark ghosting me after I’ve done/uploaded everything they asked. The LO did ask how I heard about them when we spoke, and I said BH, and he sounded happy and would apply the “friends and family” discount rates. So much good that did!

I really did want to stick with them, too. Their loss.

Will proceed with Lenderfi on a slightly worse deal but still worthwhile refi.
Post Reply