Refinance Mega Thread

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3of10
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 3of10 »

Thanks for everyone's input, especially those who have responded to my questions. I'm now in the process of presenting counter offers (LE) to the lenders. The major players are (Loan Depot, LenderFI, Better,...). For those who have done this, how did you communicate with the lenders with a competitive LE (email or calling)?

It's been difficult lately reaching them by phone, so emailing them is easier. But, if calling them is the best strategy for getting a better rate quote, then I'll deal with it and will go that route.
"You don't stop playing because you're old. You're old because you've stopped playing"
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Can somebody explain to me like I'm 5...

A Origination Charges: $1,290
B Services You Cannot Shop For: $439
C Services You Can Shop For: $648
D Total Loan Costs $2,377
E Taxes and Other Government Fees $108
F Prepaids: $4,316 (6 months of property taxes is the majority of this)
G Initial Escrow Payment at Closing: $2,288 (3 months of property taxes is the majority of this)
H Other: $0
J Total Closing Costs $9,089

Cash to close:

Loan Amount $302,500
Minus Total Closing Costs -$9,089
Equals Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments -$300,640
Estimated Cash to Close From Borrower: $7,229

The $7,229 cash to close has me nervous and I am trying to understand how the Prepaids and Escrows work. My escrow account with my current lender is $5,800 and a property tax payment of around $4,400 is due next month. Does the amount in F for prepaids assume that I am paying this at close, then the new lender will pay the county, and therefore I'll get the escrow refunded from my current lender after close? If my current lender pays it, then does the amount in F for property taxes go away?
Jcwcable
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Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:50 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jcwcable »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:05 pm
Jcwcable wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:51 pm Still chugging along on mine - anyone tell me why the prepaids would have such a discrepancy? LoanDepot is claiming Better.com "might throw them on as a cost later in the loan." As it is Better.com (top photo) is nearly a no-cost after the amex statement credit.

A: LoanDepot is charging you a $1595 origination fee, Better is not. I would tell LoanDepot you want no origination fee or an additional Lender Credit to offset.

B: Better is charging you for a home appraisal. Check to see if Better is going to refund you the appraisal fee at closing. Looks like LoanDepot is waiving appraisal.

C: Bunch of stuff some title companies charge for and other’s don’t. Better’s title agency has a laundry list of stuff, other lenders have that much smaller list you have on Loan Depots offer. You can go find your own title company to try and further reduce the costs.
Thanks, yes Better is going to refund the appraisal at closing. I wasn't concerned about the prepaids at all but I'm new to this and this is the original response from LoanDepot when I received the better offer from... better. "Hi! I want to make sure this is accurate before requesting another discount for match or beat but do you know why their loan estimate is collecting so much for prepaids and initial escrow? It shows you will be taking $3,500 to closing table at the same loan amount as ours. Can you have them correct this for you so it shows no cash to close? (look at my loan estimate)
Want to make sure they are not cutting corners or potentially baiting and switching as the prepaids can be manipulated and moved to the cost section before you know it when your loan is in processing."
mx711yam
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by mx711yam »

Local lender just quoted me 3.125% 30 year fixed no points/no origination fee, 3k in closing costs for a cash out refi (Texas title is stupid high.) Presented to Better and they said they wouldn't even look at it, just send it in with a request to get their match guarantee funds and go from there. I'm sure they're not gonna pay up, or like everyone is saying they will only send me 100 instead of 1000. It's been a very negative experience with Better on my side, best of luck to the rest of you.

Side note, I sent it to LoanDepot and the lender said he's gonna try to do whatever it takes to get me into a 2.875 rate. Not sure how he will pull that out, but waiting to see. So far LoanDepot has been incredibly responsive and easy to deal with.
Last edited by mx711yam on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cobra Commander
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Cobra Commander »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:12 pm Can somebody explain to me like I'm 5...

A Origination Charges: $1,290
B Services You Cannot Shop For: $439
C Services You Can Shop For: $648
D Total Loan Costs $2,377
E Taxes and Other Government Fees $108
F Prepaids: $4,316 (6 months of property taxes is the majority of this)
G Initial Escrow Payment at Closing: $2,288 (3 months of property taxes is the majority of this)

H Other: $0
J Total Closing Costs $9,089

Cash to close:

Loan Amount $302,500
Minus Total Closing Costs -$9,089
Equals Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments -$300,640
Estimated Cash to Close From Borrower: $7,229

The $7,229 cash to close has me nervous and I am trying to understand how the Prepaids and Escrows work. My escrow account with my current lender is $5,800 and a property tax payment of around $4,400 is due next month. Does the amount in F for prepaids assume that I am paying this at close, then the new lender will pay the county, and therefore I'll get the escrow refunded from my current lender after close? If my current lender pays it, then does the amount in F for property taxes go away?
Just me personally but I wouldn't worry about the bolded prepaid items. The money will either pay the taxes now or later and eventually they will do an escrow analysis and refund you any extra money. You will get a refund from your current lender depending on how close you are to the property taxes being due.
Jcwcable
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Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:50 am

Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jcwcable »

Jcwcable wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:14 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:05 pm
Jcwcable wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:51 pm Still chugging along on mine - anyone tell me why the prepaids would have such a discrepancy? LoanDepot is claiming Better.com "might throw them on as a cost later in the loan." As it is Better.com (top photo) is nearly a no-cost after the amex statement credit.

A: LoanDepot is charging you a $1595 origination fee, Better is not. I would tell LoanDepot you want no origination fee or an additional Lender Credit to offset.

B: Better is charging you for a home appraisal. Check to see if Better is going to refund you the appraisal fee at closing. Looks like LoanDepot is waiving appraisal.

C: Bunch of stuff some title companies charge for and other’s don’t. Better’s title agency has a laundry list of stuff, other lenders have that much smaller list you have on Loan Depots offer. You can go find your own title company to try and further reduce the costs.
Thanks, yes Better is going to refund the appraisal at closing. I wasn't concerned about the prepaids at all but I'm new to this and this is the original response from LoanDepot when I received the better offer from... better. "Hi! I want to make sure this is accurate before requesting another discount for match or beat but do you know why their loan estimate is collecting so much for prepaids and initial escrow? It shows you will be taking $3,500 to closing table at the same loan amount as ours. Can you have them correct this for you so it shows no cash to close? (look at my loan estimate)
Want to make sure they are not cutting corners or potentially baiting and switching as the prepaids can be manipulated and moved to the cost section before you know it when your loan is in processing."
Also, I'm getting to the point where I'm ready to be done with this. Next emails I send out may just say "I'm going with whoever is better on the next offer" business is business but going back and forth multiple times is already getting old. I feel for the people who don't bother to do it though. I started at 6 grand in fees and I'm now essentially down to 0.
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Cobra Commander wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:21 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:12 pm Can somebody explain to me like I'm 5...

A Origination Charges: $1,290
B Services You Cannot Shop For: $439
C Services You Can Shop For: $648
D Total Loan Costs $2,377
E Taxes and Other Government Fees $108
F Prepaids: $4,316 (6 months of property taxes is the majority of this)
G Initial Escrow Payment at Closing: $2,288 (3 months of property taxes is the majority of this)

H Other: $0
J Total Closing Costs $9,089

Cash to close:

Loan Amount $302,500
Minus Total Closing Costs -$9,089
Equals Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments -$300,640
Estimated Cash to Close From Borrower: $7,229

The $7,229 cash to close has me nervous and I am trying to understand how the Prepaids and Escrows work. My escrow account with my current lender is $5,800 and a property tax payment of around $4,400 is due next month. Does the amount in F for prepaids assume that I am paying this at close, then the new lender will pay the county, and therefore I'll get the escrow refunded from my current lender after close? If my current lender pays it, then does the amount in F for property taxes go away?
Just me personally but I wouldn't worry about the bolded prepaid items. The money will either pay the taxes now or later and eventually they will do an escrow analysis and refund you any extra money. You will get a refund from your current lender depending on how close you are to the property taxes being due.
Thank you for your reply. That's kind of what I thought. That stuff washes out and ultimately if I paid it all at close, I'd get a refund of my escrow balance from the current lender. If I don't pay it at close and my current lender pays the tax installment, then my closing cash is lower but no refund later. Am I thinking about it correctly? Basically don't worry about those amounts because no matter what they'll wash out within 30 days of close regardless?
soxpatsbos
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by soxpatsbos »

Feedback requested: Personal home in Bay Area; Value ~ 1.8M, currently on a 30 year fixed mortgage 3.625%, 700K balance. Should I refinance or do a rate modification? 5 years into current mortgage, although the bank only agreed to shave off .125% bringing the new rate to 3.50%. Refi quote from lenderfi is 2.95%.
Last edited by soxpatsbos on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

soxpatsbos wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:50 pm Feedback requested: Personal home in Bay Area; Value ~ 1.8M, currently on a 30 year fixed mortgage 3.625%, 700K balance. Should I refinance or do a rate modification? 5 years into current mortgage, although the bank only agreed to shave off .125% bringing the new rate to 3.50%
If there is no cost associated with the rated modification, do it, and next week see what you can get for a refi.
isubrama
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by isubrama »

soxpatsbos wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:50 pm Feedback requested: Personal home in Bay Area; Value ~ 1.8M, currently on a 30 year fixed mortgage 3.625%, 700K balance. Should I refinance or do a rate modification? 5 years into current mortgage, although the bank only agreed to shave off .125% bringing the new rate to 3.50%
owning straight away gives 2.99 for 30 years and 2.5% for 15 years, with no closing cost.
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Cobra Commander
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Cobra Commander »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:42 pm
Cobra Commander wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:21 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:12 pm Can somebody explain to me like I'm 5...

A Origination Charges: $1,290
B Services You Cannot Shop For: $439
C Services You Can Shop For: $648
D Total Loan Costs $2,377
E Taxes and Other Government Fees $108
F Prepaids: $4,316 (6 months of property taxes is the majority of this)
G Initial Escrow Payment at Closing: $2,288 (3 months of property taxes is the majority of this)

H Other: $0
J Total Closing Costs $9,089

Cash to close:

Loan Amount $302,500
Minus Total Closing Costs -$9,089
Equals Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments -$300,640
Estimated Cash to Close From Borrower: $7,229

The $7,229 cash to close has me nervous and I am trying to understand how the Prepaids and Escrows work. My escrow account with my current lender is $5,800 and a property tax payment of around $4,400 is due next month. Does the amount in F for prepaids assume that I am paying this at close, then the new lender will pay the county, and therefore I'll get the escrow refunded from my current lender after close? If my current lender pays it, then does the amount in F for property taxes go away?
Just me personally but I wouldn't worry about the bolded prepaid items. The money will either pay the taxes now or later and eventually they will do an escrow analysis and refund you any extra money. You will get a refund from your current lender depending on how close you are to the property taxes being due.
Thank you for your reply. That's kind of what I thought. That stuff washes out and ultimately if I paid it all at close, I'd get a refund of my escrow balance from the current lender. If I don't pay it at close and my current lender pays the tax installment, then my closing cash is lower but no refund later. Am I thinking about it correctly? Basically don't worry about those amounts because no matter what they'll wash out within 30 days of close regardless?
That's how it should work but if you are really close to the tax payment deadline the lines may get crossed and the new lender may take in an excess amount for the escrow in which case you can ask for an escrow analysis after you close and a refund of the excess amounts although I am not sure how long that process will take. Eventually you will be made whole.
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Cobra Commander wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:06 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:42 pm
Cobra Commander wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:21 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:12 pm Can somebody explain to me like I'm 5...

A Origination Charges: $1,290
B Services You Cannot Shop For: $439
C Services You Can Shop For: $648
D Total Loan Costs $2,377
E Taxes and Other Government Fees $108
F Prepaids: $4,316 (6 months of property taxes is the majority of this)
G Initial Escrow Payment at Closing: $2,288 (3 months of property taxes is the majority of this)

H Other: $0
J Total Closing Costs $9,089

Cash to close:

Loan Amount $302,500
Minus Total Closing Costs -$9,089
Equals Estimated Total Payoffs and Payments -$300,640
Estimated Cash to Close From Borrower: $7,229

The $7,229 cash to close has me nervous and I am trying to understand how the Prepaids and Escrows work. My escrow account with my current lender is $5,800 and a property tax payment of around $4,400 is due next month. Does the amount in F for prepaids assume that I am paying this at close, then the new lender will pay the county, and therefore I'll get the escrow refunded from my current lender after close? If my current lender pays it, then does the amount in F for property taxes go away?
Just me personally but I wouldn't worry about the bolded prepaid items. The money will either pay the taxes now or later and eventually they will do an escrow analysis and refund you any extra money. You will get a refund from your current lender depending on how close you are to the property taxes being due.
Thank you for your reply. That's kind of what I thought. That stuff washes out and ultimately if I paid it all at close, I'd get a refund of my escrow balance from the current lender. If I don't pay it at close and my current lender pays the tax installment, then my closing cash is lower but no refund later. Am I thinking about it correctly? Basically don't worry about those amounts because no matter what they'll wash out within 30 days of close regardless?
That's how it should work but if you are really close to the tax payment deadline the lines may get crossed and the new lender may take in an excess amount for the escrow in which case you can ask for an escrow analysis after you close and a refund of the excess amounts although I am not sure how long that process will take. Eventually you will be made whole.
Hah, funny you say that. Our taxes are typically paid on August 21 or 22, and close is scheduled for August 15. :shock:
nic3456
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nic3456 »

Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
Jcwcable
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jcwcable »

Quick legal question as I use LE's to lower rates... Noticed this at the bottom of an email, this mean I would be violating a law that I need concern myself with by sharing LE's between lenders? Note*Confidentiality note at the bottom of email.

Image
Jcwcable
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jcwcable »

Quick legal question as I use LE's to lower rates... Noticed this at the bottom of an email, does this mean I would be violating a law that I need concern myself with by sharing LE's between lenders? Note*Confidentiality note at the bottom of email.

Image
frankandbeans
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by frankandbeans »

Jcwcable wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:32 pm Quick legal question as I use LE's to lower rates... Noticed this at the bottom of an email, does this mean I would be violating a law that I need concern myself with by sharing LE's between lenders? Note*Confidentiality note at the bottom of email.

Image
No, that's just legal boilerplate that their legal department makes them add to cover what happens if they send the email to the wrong person. As the intended recipient, you can do what you please with it.
bestisfree
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by bestisfree »

Reviewing BETTER MORTGAGE's disclosure.

They have included a "Mandatory Arbitration Disclosure" requiring me to sign away rights to litigate should there be a dispute with the lender

according to MD Regs. Code tit. 9. §03.10.03.

I thought we can't be required to do Mandatory arbitration?

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfp ... %20dispute.
1andDone
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by 1andDone »

bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:35 am Hi,

For those who financed with Better or Lendfi, did you just go with with title company the lender suggested? (I know I can shop around, but am not sure if that will take more time than 30 days)

Better suggested Title365, has anyone had a problem?

Thank you in advance.
I just googled some local title firms. Several have calculators on their site that allow you to easily see how much your title/closing fees and taxes will be based on the loan amount. Took me about 15 minutes to save over a hundred bucks. Worth it in my book.
Gadget
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Gadget »

Update on my Better process:

Locked: June 15
Closing: July 1 (notary coming to my house after business hours to fit our schedule)
Loan Amount: $205,000
Rate: 2.375%
Years: 15
A+B+C=$2609.53
E=$276
A+B+C+E-AMEX=$385
Median Credit Score for mortgage: 770 (too many credit card sign up bonuses I think...)

Saving $297/mo in P&I payments while adding just 2 years. Plus getting rid of escrow.

Closing was supposed to be yesterday, but the notary came and the title company misspelled my name on everything. I said no to having all parties initial every instance of my name everywhere and wanted corrected papers. I was happy with Better though, they took an additional $600 off for my hassle on that. Well worth it for them to screw it up and come back today.

Nothing but good things to say about all the people involved at Better. I'm sure it solely depends on exactly who you get, but my process went smoothly and they responded reasonably promptly. As long as tonight's closing doesn't get screwed up again and the AMEX credit actually comes in, I'll be happy. Others have posted much better rates/costs than mine, but I get the impression that my state just doesn't get as good of offers as CA and other regions.

This LE killed all local offers I received. A friend's sister is a broker, and she was so far out of the running that she assured my friend that I'd end up getting screwed and these online companies would raise the price before closing.

Other subnote, I shopped around heavily for title insurance in my state, and I couldn't even get within $400 of Better's title company. I have no idea why. Local places wouldn't even compete when I told them I had a lower offer. But maybe you get what you pay for, because they did screw up my name on the first set of docs. But I saved an additional $600 because of that, so it's hard to be mad...
ChiKid24
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by ChiKid24 »

nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
frankandbeans
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by frankandbeans »

bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:47 pm Reviewing BETTER MORTGAGE's disclosure.

They have included a "Mandatory Arbitration Disclosure" requiring me to sign away rights to litigate should there be a dispute with the lender

according to MD Regs. Code tit. 9. §03.10.03.

I thought we can't be required to do Mandatory arbitration?

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfp ... %20dispute.
I think you're right. It's probably a mistake by whomever was assembling the disclosure package. Unless they just keep these in and include some "except to the extent prohibited by law" clause, which is kind of shady but technically compliant.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

ChiKid24 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
I've done the same. Each new one should also include an extra page about why it changed. You can at least see what they initially say why that way. What do they currently have listed there?
soxpatsbos
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by soxpatsbos »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:51 pm
soxpatsbos wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:50 pm Feedback requested: Personal home in Bay Area; Value ~ 1.8M, currently on a 30 year fixed mortgage 3.625%, 700K balance. Should I refinance or do a rate modification? 5 years into current mortgage, although the bank only agreed to shave off .125% bringing the new rate to 3.50%
If there is no cost associated with the rated modification, do it, and next week see what you can get for a refi.
Thank you! There is a $950 rate modification fee, imposed by the bank (BOA).
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

soxpatsbos wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:08 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:51 pm
soxpatsbos wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:50 pm Feedback requested: Personal home in Bay Area; Value ~ 1.8M, currently on a 30 year fixed mortgage 3.625%, 700K balance. Should I refinance or do a rate modification? 5 years into current mortgage, although the bank only agreed to shave off .125% bringing the new rate to 3.50%
If there is no cost associated with the rated modification, do it, and next week see what you can get for a refi.
Thank you! There is a $950 rate modification fee, imposed by the bank (BOA).
Ahh. That makes quite the difference. I would imagine the rate mod doesn't need an owner in say the next 7 days. I would keep that in you back pocket as you shop around. You will find that a jumbo right now is harder to get done, but I also think you would qualify as a super confirming vs. a jumbo. Personally, I would shop around first to just get a feel for the rates. For instance, Owning.com has 2.99% on a 30-year for up to $765k, complete with $0 in closing costs. That is a much better offer than the BoA rate mod.
bestisfree
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by bestisfree »

frankandbeans wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:42 pm
bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:47 pm Reviewing BETTER MORTGAGE's disclosure.

They have included a "Mandatory Arbitration Disclosure" requiring me to sign away rights to litigate should there be a dispute with the lender

according to MD Regs. Code tit. 9. §03.10.03.

I thought we can't be required to do Mandatory arbitration?

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfp ... %20dispute.
I think you're right. It's probably a mistake by whomever was assembling the disclosure package. Unless they just keep these in and include some "except to the extent prohibited by law" clause, which is kind of shady but technically compliant.

Have other people applying through Better seen this clause in their disclosures? Is this common? I am quite surprised.
kevdude
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by kevdude »

senthilm wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:11 pm Any one from Seatle area that refinanced? My. rates are awful with better.com and aimloan and costco refinance is around 3.125%
how are people getting in high 2's?
I locked with Better on Monday on a 3%, 30-yr loan with no fees and $1105 in lender credits. Home value $850,000, current mortgage $262,000 and a 2nd we are not paying off of $95,000. Both credit scores over 800. Also getting the $2500 Amex credit.

I, too, didn't really see any reasonable rates below 3%.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:44 pm
frankandbeans wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:42 pm
bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:47 pm Reviewing BETTER MORTGAGE's disclosure.

They have included a "Mandatory Arbitration Disclosure" requiring me to sign away rights to litigate should there be a dispute with the lender

according to MD Regs. Code tit. 9. §03.10.03.

I thought we can't be required to do Mandatory arbitration?

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfp ... %20dispute.
I think you're right. It's probably a mistake by whomever was assembling the disclosure package. Unless they just keep these in and include some "except to the extent prohibited by law" clause, which is kind of shady but technically compliant.

Have other people applying through Better seen this clause in their disclosures? Is this common? I am quite surprised.
My mid-May closing package from Better doesn't not include a mandatory arbitration clause. Where in your closing package did you see that?
noobtoinvesting
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by noobtoinvesting »

locked with better for 2.25 with 2000 in lender credit for 15 years abc =3322 and will try to lower it by 1000 by getting my own title/closing company
Familyman2012
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

jw2s wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:08 pm Hmmm,

I closed a few weeks ago on a 2.875% 30yr fixed. Closing costs were, say, $2,000(I don't remember). Mostly Title fee.

If my 'break even' point is a year from now, would it make sense to refinance again to a lower rate after a year? I'm regretting not doing a 'no cost' refi, but not knowing the future, what I had was good enough in my book.

I guess my question is this: If what I save in my monthly payments pays for the closing costs in a year, is it then a 'no cost refi' enabling me to refi again since I 'reset' the cost of the OG refi to zero?

Sorry if I'm not getting this out right...

Or am I confusing this?
I believe what he means is for example.. let say you started with a 4.5 %. And now let say you received a “no cost” refi Loan estimate and the offer was 2.99% for 30 years. Since you paid $2000, they gave you a lower rate of 2.875%

Let’s say, in July rates goes down and everyone is getting 2.875% 30 years for no cost..

You could’ve refi at 2.99 no cost and saved $2000 and then refi again and gotten the 2.875 at no cost.

Hope that makes sense and hope that’s what he meant. That’s why lots of bogleheads preaches no cost. Including me.
[/quote]


Familyman,

I think I understand what you are saying. Sequential no cost refis afford one the ability to refi anytime thereafter without worrying about recouping closing costs. There is nothing to lose.

But say I save $200/month by refinancing now. In 10 months, I've zeroed out the $2,000 closing costs. Is this now essentially a no cost refi?
In 10 months, perhaps a no cost refi comes along at a lower rate. Would doing this cost me nothing since the first refi is now 'payed off'?
[/quote]

I see what you’re saying. I think in your situation. I would only pay if we knew rates would stay stagnant at 2.875 for several years. But since the rumors are that rates might continue to drop. Here is how I look at it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Let’s go back to the original example: you have 4.5%. And Let’s say if you locked in 2.99% no cost. And you were saving $180/month. Since you paid $2000 for a %2.875 to save $200/month. That’s a $20 dollar difference savings from a 2.99% to 2.875%. In 10 months you would break even ($200x10 months)= $2000

Let’s say in 10 months the rates drop lower to 2.5% and everyone is getting that rate at no cost and you refinance again to 2.5% no cost.

Now, let’s say I (Familyman2012) had a 4.5% also and refi to 2.99% ($180/month saving also) and want to refi again 10 months later to a no cost 2.5% like you.
With my saving of $180/months x10 months. I just save $1800 net profit in 10 months while you just broke even. (Same thinking if it was you instead of me)

If I kept my 2.99% for 30 years and you kept %2.875 for 30 years. Then yes, you come out a head of me. But for me, I’ll gamble and do the no cost. Especially at these weird times we’re living in.

Hope that makes sense. If I’m looking at it wrong, please someone chime in. I’m open to different perspectives.
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Familyman2012 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:20 pm Hope that makes sense. If I’m looking at it wrong, please someone chime in. I’m open to different perspectives.
You are thinking of it correctly.

When I was doing my refi in May, I was just thinking rates could go down a bit, but I thought they would be relatively stable. I didn’t think that for about the same closing costs, I could get a 2.25% in June as I was getting for 2.875% in May. So I decided to not get $1k in my pocket after credits and do 2.625%. Well here we are, with me locking a new refi before I’ve even made my first payment.

I suspect rates could still go crazy and even if they don’t, the difference in savings wasn’t too great. I either get $2k in my pocket now, or $4k in my pocket over 15 years. I’m choosing the former at this point. If another refi opportunity comes in, great. If not, I’m not going to worry about $2k over 15 years more I could have gotten.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Triple digit golfer »

I'm racking my brain second guessing myself on whether refinancing is a good move. I strongly believe it is, but I keep having second thoughts, for what reason I have no idea.

Current mortgage balance $300k
3.50%
30 year fixed
Monthly PI $1,556

Refinance: Starting balance $302k estimate
Closing costs rolled into the loan - may just pay out of pocket and reduce loan to $300k
2.99%
30 year fixed
Monthly PI $1,272 assuming $302k starting balance with closing fees rolled into the loan

I plan to invest the savings of $284 per month. For a few years, our mortgage balance will remain higher than it would had we not refinanced. Over time it will gradually get lower.

My wife is caught up on why I would extend our mortgage by several years. I told her I plan on investing the money and earning much more than 2.99% and therefore would be essentially borrowing money at a low rate to earn money at a higher rate. Then she says what if something happens job-wise or whatever and we can no longer invest the difference. I said great, then we have a lower monthly mortgage and would otherwise have to pay the difference under the old mortgage anyway, since that was our old payment.

Am I overthinking? Essentially, I can pay $2k in loan fees to refinance a 30 year at 3.50% to a 30 year at 2.99%, and plan on not paying it off any faster than required and investing the difference. To me, that sums it up and there's nothing else to really iron out.

I am getting caught up on the mortgage balance starting essentially $3k higher than the balance would be (because the initial payment is delayed a month) at the same time with the old loan. But who cares, right, if we plan on being in the house for a long time.

Somebody reassure me or poke holes in it.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by bestisfree »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:53 pm
bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:44 pm
frankandbeans wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:42 pm
bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:47 pm Reviewing BETTER MORTGAGE's disclosure.

They have included a "Mandatory Arbitration Disclosure" requiring me to sign away rights to litigate should there be a dispute with the lender

according to MD Regs. Code tit. 9. §03.10.03.

I thought we can't be required to do Mandatory arbitration?

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfp ... %20dispute.
I think you're right. It's probably a mistake by whomever was assembling the disclosure package. Unless they just keep these in and include some "except to the extent prohibited by law" clause, which is kind of shady but technically compliant.



Have other people applying through Better seen this clause in their disclosures? Is this common? I am quite surprised.
My mid-May closing package from Better doesn't not include a mandatory arbitration clause. Where in your closing package did you see that?
this was in the initial informational disclosure.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:46 pm Am I overthinking? Essentially, I can pay $2k in loan fees to refinance a 30 year at 3.50% to a 30 year at 2.99%, and plan on not paying it off any faster than required and investing the difference. To me, that sums it up and there's nothing else to really iron out.

I am getting caught up on the mortgage balance starting essentially $3k higher than the balance would be (because the initial payment is delayed a month) at the same time with the old loan. But who cares, right, if we plan on being in the house for a long time.

Somebody reassure me or poke holes in it.
I wouldn’t get hung up on the $2k increase in principal. Instead, focus on making the term longer. It’s only $284/mo right now, but consider splitting the different if it bothers you. Pay your new loan extra such that it would end on the same month as the old one. Then invest that difference.

Either way isn’t bad though.
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Post by BrandonBogle »

bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 pm this was in the initial informational disclosure.
My ICD doesn’t contain that either, though I wouldn’t expect it to as that is just an informational doc vs. anything I’m signing an agreement to.

Perhaps a difference between states?
Triple digit golfer
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Triple digit golfer »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:59 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:46 pm Am I overthinking? Essentially, I can pay $2k in loan fees to refinance a 30 year at 3.50% to a 30 year at 2.99%, and plan on not paying it off any faster than required and investing the difference. To me, that sums it up and there's nothing else to really iron out.

I am getting caught up on the mortgage balance starting essentially $3k higher than the balance would be (because the initial payment is delayed a month) at the same time with the old loan. But who cares, right, if we plan on being in the house for a long time.

Somebody reassure me or poke holes in it.
I wouldn’t get hung up on the $2k increase in principal. Instead, focus on making the term longer. It’s only $284/mo right now, but consider splitting the different if it bothers you. Pay your new loan extra such that it would end on the same month as the old one. Then invest that difference.

Either way isn’t bad though.
Thanks for the post. Essentially, refinancing is a better option than not refinancing in either scenario, whether we pay extra to the loan or pay the minimum, the latter assuming an investment return greater than the interest rate.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by NJ_Bogler »

I currently am 4 years into a 30 year mortgage that is actually about a 26 year mortgage since it's a biweekly payment plan. Interest rate is 3.25%; balance is $460,000. Probably staying in the house for 20 more years.

Mortgage Professor shows I can get a 2.25% 15 year through Keystone. No points (looks like I get back around $833; $6700 approx in various costs).

Assuming I can handle the higher monthly payment (probably another $600/month), this seems like a no brainer? Am I missing something here? Thanks all.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

NJ_Bogler wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:56 pm Mortgage Professor shows I can get a 2.25% 15 year through Keystone. No points (looks like I get back around $833; $6700 approx in various costs).
Wait until you get a Loan Estimate to really trust the numbers. But until then, why do you mean "get back around $833", but "$6700 in various costs"? As in, you have a $7,500 credit to offset the $6,700 in costs and there is still $833 left over?
bestisfree
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by bestisfree »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:01 pm
bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 pm The mandatory binding arbitration requirement
this was in the initial informational disclosure.
My ICD doesn’t contain that either, though I wouldn’t expect it to as that is just an informational doc vs. anything I’m signing an agreement to.

Perhaps a difference between states?
Maybe. I am in Maryland. My previous mortgage did not have it either so I am quite concerned.

I am still in the process of uploading the rest of my docs so I haven't seen the final package.
limeyx
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by limeyx »

Cobra Commander wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:24 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:15 pm
SVariance1 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:10 pm What is the amex credit with Quicken
https://www.americanexpress.com/us/camp ... ken-loans/
The Quicken guy I spoke with didn't seem to know much about the offer. Almost like, oh yeah I guess there's an AMEX offer too that we figure out down the road. I guess you can't expect them to be aware of every promotion out there but this seems like a big one.

I would also add that I'm jealous of all the people with these no cost refinancing offers. I get it that people are using loan estimates to get better rates but none of the loan estimates I'm getting are even close to no cost. Better does not operate in VA so I don't have that option. I tried Quicken, CF Bank and LenderFi (haven't heard back yet) but so far no 0 cost refinancing options that are materially better than my current 3.25%.

One interesting note was that for Quicken loans there was no difference in the rate for a sub $510K loan and my current $530K loan.
I txted my Quicken guy that I was not going to refi because it was too expensive and Lender.FI was way better
They wanted something like $8K in points and a 2.99% rate

He came down with a "special" for existing customers of 2.375% and $700 in points in seconds without even seeing the LE
I showed this to Better who "bettered it" then I told the Quicken guy about that + the $2400 AMEX credit and he instantly came back with a further $2000 in credits

I will still pay around $500 to refi but going from 3.25% to 2.5% and rolling three loans into one will save over $50K in interest and shorten our overall loan duration for very little cost

But yes you have to work it a bit (I blamed a lot of it on my wife finding better offers to make her the "bad guy")

I probably could have pushed it a bit more but I think i did "OK"
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:46 pm
BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:01 pm
bestisfree wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 pm The mandatory binding arbitration requirement
this was in the initial informational disclosure.
My ICD doesn’t contain that either, though I wouldn’t expect it to as that is just an informational doc vs. anything I’m signing an agreement to.

Perhaps a difference between states?
Maybe. I am in Maryland. My previous mortgage did not have it either so I am quite concerned.

I am still in the process of uploading the rest of my docs so I haven't seen the final package.
Oh, "uploading the rest of my docs". So you mean the disclosures for the "intent to proceed" and rate lock. I checked mine and that still doesn't have an arbitration clause in either my April or June refinances. However, those disclosures (as I understand them) apply to the mortgage app process, not the mortgage itself. What is binding on the mortgage is the items in the closing package vs. the application leading up to it.

However, that is just my understanding and in every doc I got from start to finish, an arbitration clause/requirement wasn't there. Just odd.

IANAL
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by dragoncar »

dragoncar wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:54 am
Thanks, they paid the loan yesterday, one week after “funding”.

I asked for an adjustment or accommodation for the extra interest. Will see what they say, but I consider this an unreasonable delay. Having a hard time recommending better/title365 given my experience so far
They agreed to refund settlement fee. Pretty much makes up for the lost interest but it's too bad they weren't proactive in resolving
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Post by BrandonBogle »

dragoncar wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:10 am
dragoncar wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:54 am
Thanks, they paid the loan yesterday, one week after “funding”.

I asked for an adjustment or accommodation for the extra interest. Will see what they say, but I consider this an unreasonable delay. Having a hard time recommending better/title365 given my experience so far
They agreed to refund settlement fee. Pretty much makes up for the lost interest but it's too bad they weren't proactive in resolving
Are you saying the extra week of interest at Chase was a higher dollar amount than the settlement fee?
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Jags4186 »

ChiKid24 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
Yup. Better has updated my Loan Estimate a bunch of times. I noticed my Lender Credit dropped $9. Certainly not $700, but they will be hearing from me :moneybag
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by nic3456 »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:45 am
ChiKid24 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
Yup. Better has updated my Loan Estimate a bunch of times. I noticed my Lender Credit dropped $9. Certainly not $700, but they will be hearing from me :moneybag
Finally heard back from better - apparently my appraisal came in 25k lower than what I had estimated which moved me into a different LTV bracket. I was ~66% and now I’m at 70.2%. I’m checking to see if I could just pay a couple hundred dollars and move back below 70%. The appraiser kind of hosed me - They appraised for the same price as it did three years ago but since then the market is as strong or stronger and we’ve added a barn.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:45 am
ChiKid24 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
Yup. Better has updated my Loan Estimate a bunch of times. I noticed my Lender Credit dropped $9. Certainly not $700, but they will be hearing from me :moneybag
So far my lender credit is the same. The only thing on my loan estimate that changed is that the payoff amount is now more than the loan amount but 1500. I know mortgage payments are paid in arrears. This is normal right?
I’m going to be making a mortgage payment in the next week before my closing date. So I think it will get adjusted again. Hopefully
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by psychoslowmatic »

BrandonBogle wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:59 pm
Triple digit golfer wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:46 pm Am I overthinking? Essentially, I can pay $2k in loan fees to refinance a 30 year at 3.50% to a 30 year at 2.99%, and plan on not paying it off any faster than required and investing the difference. To me, that sums it up and there's nothing else to really iron out.

I am getting caught up on the mortgage balance starting essentially $3k higher than the balance would be (because the initial payment is delayed a month) at the same time with the old loan. But who cares, right, if we plan on being in the house for a long time.

Somebody reassure me or poke holes in it.
I wouldn’t get hung up on the $2k increase in principal. Instead, focus on making the term longer. It’s only $284/mo right now, but consider splitting the different if it bothers you. Pay your new loan extra such that it would end on the same month as the old one. Then invest that difference.

Either way isn’t bad though.
Or you could leave the payment $ amount exactly the same and shorten your term compared to the original. No matter which you do you're better off with a lower interest rate, so go for it and figure out which approach you want to take while they're in underwriting. Heck, if it's risk your wife is worried about you could invest the difference in EE Bonds and make 0.5% once the 20 year doubling happens.
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Familyman2012 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:33 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:45 am
ChiKid24 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
Yup. Better has updated my Loan Estimate a bunch of times. I noticed my Lender Credit dropped $9. Certainly not $700, but they will be hearing from me :moneybag
So far my lender credit is the same. The only thing on my loan estimate that changed is that the payoff amount is now more than the loan amount but 1500. I know mortgage payments are paid in arrears. This is normal right?
I’m going to be making a mortgage payment in the next week before my closing date. So I think it will get adjusted again. Hopefully
Yes, that is perfectly normal. Sometimes it is automatic, but you may need to explicitly request the settlement agent get an updated payoff quote once your initial closing disclosures are prepared.

Please note, from others commenting, it seems best that if the loan amount needs to be adjusted to better suite your needs, it is best to explicitly tell your contact the amount to make it. For instance, if the loan is $200k and your payoff is $201,524, it is best to explicitly say “please make my loan amount $201,524 to match the payoff quote”. If you simply ask them to adjust, you are the whim of the person doing their math right and reports are mixed on that being done correctly.
Familyman2012
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:33 am
Familyman2012 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:33 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:45 am
ChiKid24 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:55 pm
nic3456 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:28 pm Getting annoyed with Better - my loan was progressing fine, then they randomly reduced my lender credit by $700 with no explanation and haven't responded to emails for 6 days.

On a side note has everyone closings been in person or virtual?
I recommend saving your loan estimate immediately after you lock and any subsequent ones if changes are made. Then you can challenge the change in lender credit (or anything else that moves against you) and have proof to back up your case.
Yup. Better has updated my Loan Estimate a bunch of times. I noticed my Lender Credit dropped $9. Certainly not $700, but they will be hearing from me :moneybag
So far my lender credit is the same. The only thing on my loan estimate that changed is that the payoff amount is now more than the loan amount but 1500. I know mortgage payments are paid in arrears. This is normal right?
I’m going to be making a mortgage payment in the next week before my closing date. So I think it will get adjusted again. Hopefully
Yes, that is perfectly normal. Sometimes it is automatic, but you may need to explicitly request the settlement agent get an updated payoff quote once your initial closing disclosures are prepared.

Please note, from others commenting, it seems best that if the loan amount needs to be adjusted to better suite your needs, it is best to explicitly tell your contact the amount to make it. For instance, if the loan is $200k and your payoff is $201,524, it is best to explicitly say “please make my loan amount $201,524 to match the payoff quote”. If you simply ask them to adjust, you are the whim of the person doing their math right and reports are mixed on that being done correctly.
I see. So my suppose closing date is 7/24. My current lender usually takes my mortgage payment on the 7th-9th of every month. Then a couple days later I get an updated mortgage statement. Do I give them the new loan balance on that statement? Or do I want 1 or 2 days before 7/24 to call my current lender what the new payoff is? Then relay that to my closing agent to update closing doc?
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by BrandonBogle »

Familyman2012 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:55 am I see. So my suppose closing date is 7/24. My current lender usually takes my mortgage payment on the 7th-9th of every month. Then a couple days later I get an updated mortgage statement. Do I give them the new loan balance on that statement? Or do I want 1 or 2 days before 7/24 to call my current lender what the new payoff is? Then relay that to my closing agent to update closing doc?
You can do legwork if you want, but the settlement agent is not supposed to accept the number you send them and instead validate for themselves. So if your number isn't already update when you get your "initial closing disclosures" and you set a closing date, ask for them to get a new payoff quote from your old lender. The statement is not what you want to use.

Technically, the payoff quote can be generated anytime the monthly payment, but there is no sense in getting it super early in case closing gets delayed. Hopefully not, but if your 7/24 closing moves to 8/10 for some reason, the numbers would need to be updated again.
Familyman2012
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Re: Refinance Mega Thread

Post by Familyman2012 »

BrandonBogle wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:31 am
Familyman2012 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:55 am I see. So my suppose closing date is 7/24. My current lender usually takes my mortgage payment on the 7th-9th of every month. Then a couple days later I get an updated mortgage statement. Do I give them the new loan balance on that statement? Or do I want 1 or 2 days before 7/24 to call my current lender what the new payoff is? Then relay that to my closing agent to update closing doc?
You can do legwork if you want, but the settlement agent is not supposed to accept the number you send them and instead validate for themselves. So if your number isn't already update when you get your "initial closing disclosures" and you set a closing date, ask for them to get a new payoff quote from your old lender. The statement is not what you want to use.

Technically, the payoff quote can be generated anytime the monthly payment, but there is no sense in getting it super early in case closing gets delayed. Hopefully not, but if your 7/24 closing moves to 8/10 for some reason, the numbers would need to be updated again.
Thank you. I’ll wait for the initial closing disclosures. I’m probably just jumping the gun. But what to understand the details before I sign off on everything.
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