What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

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flyingaway
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What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by flyingaway » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 am

We have talked a lot about the 4% rule or 3% rule. However, it seems that a constant spending model may not work well if you happen to have a long life, for example, you live, fortunately or unfortunately, into your 90s.
I read on other forums that some people had good life with their money, until into their 90s, when they need assisted living or nursing home helps. Many of them just ran out of money and had to rely on Medicaid or similar programs.
Have you considered, or will you consider such situations in your retirement (or long life) planning?
What is you plan?

EDIT: Corrected a typo.
Last edited by flyingaway on Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JoeRetire
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by JoeRetire » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:51 am

We have Long Term Care Insurance, and plenty of retirement assets. I am the higher earner and will delay starting my Social Security benefits until 70. No debts, other than a mortgage easily covered by our savings. Plenty of equity in our home.

No worries, no matter how long we live.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am

If we need expensive LTC for an extended period of time, our heirs will have to deal with inheriting less. I am not worried about it.

People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Sandtrap
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
If we need expensive LTC for an extended period of time, our heirs will have to deal with inheriting less. I am not worried about it.

People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
+1
Good point!

At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
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oldfatguy
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by oldfatguy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am

Medicaid or death .. it will depend on my capabilities at the time.

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8foot7
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am

Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am


At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it. 8-)

rjbraun
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by rjbraun » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:08 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
Not sure I get your point. Are you suggesting that one err on the side of caution and work a bit longer to improve the odds of having sufficient funds (or more) in one's later years?

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dm200
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by dm200 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:12 am

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 am
We have talked a lot about the 4% rule or 3% rule. However, it seems that a constant spending model may not work well if you happen to have a long life, for example, you live, fortunately or unfortunately, into your 90s.
I read on other forums that some people had good life with their money, until into their 90s, when they need assisted living or nursing home helps. Many of them just ran out of money and had to reply on Medicaid or similar programs.
Have you considered, or will you consider such situations in your retirement (or long life) planning?
What is you plan?
If I am widowed (and outlive my current wife), perhaps find a younger woman to "take care of me". Unfortunately, I am, and will be, of very modest income and assets - so that may not work. On the other hand, I often see younger (and very nice) women who do exactly that.

One woman I know is in her mid 60's and was widowed two years ago. For some reason, she was very anxious to get married again. Turns out that a couple she knew - the wife was seriously disable for a long time - and the wife then died. She and the widower (in his early 80's) were married within a year. Always hope, I suppose. :sharebeer

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:13 am

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am


At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it. 8-)
DW has made that offer many times over the course of our near 48 year marriage. I fear she might be too feeble when the time actually comes. :oops:

Man plans, God laughs.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am


At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it. 8-)
I told DW to save a lot of money and time by taking me to the Vet for the same result. I think this is "senior humor".

Actionably: facing one's mortality and planning for it is as vital a part of financial planning as choosing allocation.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:15 am

rjbraun wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:08 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
Not sure I get your point. Are you suggesting that one err on the side of caution and work a bit longer to improve the odds of having sufficient funds (or more) in one's later years?
I have a long-standing resistance to the BH FIRE view (not universal, but common), that emphasizes Retire Early with less attention paid to Financial Independence. I am saddened that so many hate their jobs so much that enjoying work is viewed as impossible. If someone has enough and wants to retire, I get it. I wish my wife did :D
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Mr. Rumples » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:25 am

On both my mother's and father's sides of the family, folks regularly live into their 90's. I remember when my father's oldest sister died at 89 and the family was saying how young she was. Cancer is rare as is severe cognitive decline. Rather its the legs that give out. My goal is to stay in my house as long as I can. To that end, I only allow myself to spend 2% of my portfolio which supplements my SS and pension (with a LTC policy). The portfolio remains aggressive for my age: high in equities. Right now, the "better" places for care cost over $6,000 a month and I don't want to have to ask family members for help.

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dm200
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by dm200 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:30 am

Mr. Rumples wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:25 am
On both my mother's and father's sides of the family, folks regularly live into their 90's. I remember when my father's oldest sister died at 89 and the family was saying how young she was. Cancer is rare as is severe cognitive decline. Rather its the legs that give out. My goal is to stay in my house as long as I can. To that end, I only allow myself to spend 2% of my portfolio which supplements my SS and pension (with a LTC policy). The portfolio remains aggressive for my age: high in equities. Right now, the "better" places for care cost over $6,000 a month and I don't want to have to ask family members for help.
The youngest of my four grandparents was my paternal grandfather who was in his early 80's when he died (three years before I was born). I knew the other three grandparents very well and died in late 80's or mid 90's. The last few years of my maternal grandparents, though, experienced cognitive decline. We shall see.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by 7eight9 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:35 am

My understanding is that the cost of long term care is significantly lower in some other countries.

Comparison of costs in the United States vs. a facility in Thailand.
Link --- http://www.carewell-service.com/making- ... -costs-usa

BBC article titled Exporting Grandma to care homes abroad.
Link --- https://www.bbc.com/news/health-25438325

On the list of things that I worry about living into my 90s isn't one of them.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by mak1277 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:39 am

I don't think I'll start worrying about living to my 90s until I'm at least 70.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by RadAudit » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:39 am

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it.
I'm just home from the hospital after a seizure. My wife, who had been totally uninterested in personal finance up until that event, finally asked "How can I withdraw money from the portfolio if you are disabled for a long time?" (Read - a vegetable) Fortunately, Vanguard has a "limited authority" option which allows other selected individuals access to your personal (IRA) accounts. Disturbingly enough she smiled (broadly) after being shown how that was done.

And, I have instructions in the IPS on how to change the portfolio AA in the event of my long term disability to something a little more conservative and a little easier to handle.

But, JIC, I also have long term care insurance.
FI is the best revenge. LBYM. Invest the rest. Stay the course. - PS: The cavalry isn't coming, kids. You are on your own.

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Taylor Larimore
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SPIAs may be your answer for never running out of money

Post by Taylor Larimore » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:44 am

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 am
We have talked a lot about the 4% rule or 3% rule. However, it seems that a constant spending model may not work well if you happen to have a long life, for example, you live, fortunately or unfortunately, into your 90s.
I read on other forums that some people had good life with their money, until into their 90s, when they need assisted living or nursing home helps. Many of them just ran out of money and had to reply on Medicaid or similar programs.
Have you considered, or will you consider such situations in your retirement (or long life) planning?
What is you plan?
flyingaway:

Many of us, probably most of us, worry about running out of money before running out of life. In our case, my wife and I waited until our early 80s to purchase two joint Single Premium Life Income (SPIA) annuities. You can read the reasons we waited HERE.

Today I checked with www.immediateannuities.com and learned that an 80-year old couple paying $100,000 can buy a lifetime income of $710 a month ($8,520 or 8 1/2%/year) for as long as either is alive.

It's the best investment we ever made. I'm 95.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "Depending on the particular circumstances, annuities are a good idea, but only annuities available at very low cost and commensurately high return."
Last edited by Taylor Larimore on Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dm200
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by dm200 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:53 am

RadAudit wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:39 am
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it.
I'm just home from the hospital after a seizure. My wife, who had been totally uninterested in personal finance up until that event, finally asked "How can I withdraw money from the portfolio if you are disabled for a long time?" Fortunately, Vanguard has a "limited authority" option which allows other selected individuals access to your personal (IRA) accounts. Disturbingly enough she smiled (broadly) after being shown how that was done.
And, I have instructions in the IPS on how to change the portfolio AA in the event of my long term disability to something a little more conservative and a little easier to handle.
But, JIC, I also have long term care insurance.
I also plan to keep well informed about "end of life" situations and choices - and hop/plan that my wife and/or other family members are well informed when it comes to my "situation". My brother and sister-in-law (especially my sister-in-law) live in the area where I grew up and were directly involved in "end of life" requirements, choices and options for both my late uncle and late father. As a result, neither one of them was kept "alive" when there would have been no quality of life at all. In the case of my late father, as his condition deteriorated, they appropriately changed the staff instructions at the hospital where he died.

One (of many) detail is the decision about using a "feeding tube". In many cases, a feeding tube can save a person's life and they can return to a normal life - after it is taken out. In other cases, such as end of life situations, a feeding tube prolongs "life" but is real "torture" for the patient. In some (perhaps most) states, there is not a requirement that a feeding tube be used for a patient. However, once a feeding tube is inserted, it cannot be taken out.

I suppose, even elderly patients may have a condition where a feeding tube is appropriate and the elderly patient can return to a quality of life" after the tube is removed. This, in my opinion, is where the patient needs proper documents about this, as well as the responsible family members being well informed about it.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:49 am
We have talked a lot about the 4% rule or 3% rule. However, it seems that a constant spending model may not work well if you happen to have a long life, for example, you live, fortunately or unfortunately, into your 90s.
I read on other forums that some people had good life with their money, until into their 90s, when they need assisted living or nursing home helps. Many of them just ran out of money and had to rely on Medicaid or similar programs.
Have you considered, or will you consider such situations in your retirement (or long life) planning?
What is you plan?

EDIT: Corrected a typo.
Anyone contemplating retirement should consider how they are going to pay for LTC. Not doing so would be an example of poor planning!

The first step in that planning is looking up data such as what is the median stay in assisted living, cost of assisted living in your area etc. Then you have to decide if you are going to worry about the quite rare outlier cases (you need 15 years of skilled nursing at 120k per year!) or the vastly more likely scenarios like two years in assisted living (two years times maybe 65k). And believe it or not, many die without spending a day in LTC.

It becomes obvious if you do your own research that people with a good sized nest egg can handle the typical LTC situations. But the outlier cases might be an issue.

Then you can decide if LTC insurance is a good idea (answer .... it depends). We have many threads on LTC insurance. They tend to get heated. Some people think anyone who can actually afford to write the checks for the insurance should get it. Others disagree, noting that paying 6k or more for 20 years is kinda expensive insurance. And so on. Those threads are entertaining, though they can also be confusing as people talk past each other and some advocates of LTC are (in my couldn't possibly be biased view :happy ) selective about which facts are emphasized. But clearly one should research LTC insurance -- it is one potential way to mitigate the risk of a really bad outcome.

One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by VeganBH » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am


At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it. 8-)
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
"Until we extend our circle of compassion to all living things, humanity will not find peace."​ ~ Albert Sc​hweitzer

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by flyingaway » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am

TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).
I wonder if anyone has SERIOUSLY considered the issue of using house equity as LTC funds.
A house with a senior living there many years is likely not well maintained. To sell such a house, I think it may be lucky to get 60% of the estimated value, after repairing, fees, etc.

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flyingaway
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by flyingaway » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 am

VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
You still need money and energy to get to Switzerland.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Dottie57 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:00 pm

No crystal ball here. I have LTCi which covers about 3 years of expenses.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by RobLyons » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:02 pm

Sell the house either:
1. to the kids and we will move into the basement
or
2. we sell the house to private party and we move in with the kids (given their house is big enough)

This is the way other countries do it and it works well, as long as we are healthy
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by HomerJ » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:34 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
Says the stay-at-home Dad whose kids are gone... :)
The J stands for Jay

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:51 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:34 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
Says the stay-at-home Dad whose kids are gone... :)
And who very sincerely wishes he could have his old job back :D My kids retired me by heading off to college :oops: Going back to software development after 20 years out of the game is probably not a good plan.

After our home renovation is done I am going to increase my volunteering. I really enjoy being useful for part of the day. I

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Doom&Gloom » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:02 pm

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 am
Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am


At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
My wife has kindly offered to put a pillow over my face if this happens, so I'm relieved to not worry about it. 8-)
Those are the instructions I have given my wife. I have emphasized them recently after visiting a friend who is in an independent living facility. That lifestyle does not suit me. Avoiding LTC is high on my list of priorities. I will feel much better when my wife tells me that she is looking forward to "pillow day" :beer

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Stinky » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:11 pm

My plan is to have a healthy mind as long as I live.

I hope that I have a healthy body to go along with it.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by adamthesmythe » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:14 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).
I wonder if anyone has SERIOUSLY considered the issue of using house equity as LTC funds.
A house with a senior living there many years is likely not well maintained. To sell such a house, I think it may be lucky to get 60% of the estimated value, after repairing, fees, etc.
A good argument for living in a condo or townhome with exterior maintenance taken care of. In that case...60% is way pessimistic.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by carolinaman » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:25 pm

Our SS and pensions are covering all of our living expenses now with a little left over (ages 74 and 76). So far we have not used our savings. It is low 7 figures, so we should have no worries. I looked at LTC prior to retirement but concluded that we can and should self insure. A lengthy stay in nursing home would put a dent in our savings but there should still be funds for our kids as an inheritance.

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dm200
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by dm200 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:32 pm

My wife and I have:

- My SS Retirement Monthly Income
- My two, small vested defined benefit checks a month of about $600 - not indexed for inflation
- My wife's SS, based on my SS payments. She took it at 62 - so it is about 1/3 of mine

If she dies first, I will continue to get everything except her SS.

If I die first, she will get my SS amount instead of hers and will get the same retirement income of mine (I selected this option st age 65)

Neither of us will "outlive" this income stream - although it very well may not be enough?

I also have part time employment income that I hope will continue for many years. The "plan" is that this income can continue until our home mortgage and Home equity ten yer loans are paid off (about 12 years or so)

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by bhsince87 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:37 pm

Plan "A" is to self fund LTC. Planning on a 3% withdrawal rate with about 40-50X expenses at age 54, and expect that to provide "enough". Will definitely consider buying into a continuing care type facility if things work out OK. And also consider annuities at age 75+.

Plan "B" is a federally backed reverse mortgage, which is essentially an annuity.

Plan "C" is put everything in a trust and go with Medicaid. That worked for three of my Grandparents who lived into their 90's, and several other relatives I know. But we live in an area with decent Medicaid level care is available, at least currently.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace." Samuel Adams

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by GerryL » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:45 pm

mak1277 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:39 am
I don't think I'll start worrying about living to my 90s until I'm at least 70.
I am 70 and am thinking about it, especially since I am a Solo Ager.
Not worried about having enough money as much as I am worried about cognitive decline … and possibly being scammed or cheated out of my nest egg. That is why I am in the process of trying to establish a trusted network that includes professionals, close friends and my nephew who can (maybe) make sure no one person can take advantage of my situation.

I am thinking it is likely I will one day need to move into a CCRC (if I can find one I like), but I am currently a member of a virtual Village that helps people age in place. If I manage to stay both physically and mentally with it, I may be able to stay put for a long time to come -- with some help.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by delamer » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:53 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).
I wonder if anyone has SERIOUSLY considered the issue of using house equity as LTC funds.
A house with a senior living there many years is likely not well maintained. To sell such a house, I think it may be lucky to get 60% of the estimated value, after repairing, fees, etc.
My parents used the equity in their home to pay the deposit on their CCRC in their late-70’s.

They’d owned the house for 40 years, the mortgage was paid off, and it was well maintained.

I can think of other elders who did something similar.

I am sure what you describe happens in some cases, but it certainly isn’t universally true.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:35 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).
I wonder if anyone has SERIOUSLY considered the issue of using house equity as LTC funds.
A house with a senior living there many years is likely not well maintained. To sell such a house, I think it may be lucky to get 60% of the estimated value, after repairing, fees, etc.
I consider our mortgage free home a potential source of LTC funding. A conventional mortgage, a Reverse Mortgage, or perhaps a HELOC might be possible. Or even downsizing into a smaller home could put $100,000 in our pockets.

We are not the type retirees who allow their dwelling to deteriorate into disrepair. I honestly don't get why some folks are only interested in freshening their home when they want to sell, unwilling to spend $$$ to make their home nicer WHEN they are living in it.

Since I am already disabled, I can't purchase LTC insurance. I did look into LTC insurance for DW, but it wasn't something that I would have been excited to purchase.

Along with home equity, we have a Vanguard Variable Annuity that could have money pulled out in various ways for LTC expenses.

And, at least until 2030-2031 we have a lot of Series I Savings Bonds. We would both be 78 around then when they would be cashed in.

Finally, we could become a burden to one or more of our daughters, however I would like to avoid that. They live in nicer homes than DW and I.

Hopefully before that happens perhaps Florida will have joined other states in a totally different kind of end of life plan. Just saying.....

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Retirement Nerd » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:48 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:35 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).
I wonder if anyone has SERIOUSLY considered the issue of using house equity as LTC funds.
A house with a senior living there many years is likely not well maintained. To sell such a house, I think it may be lucky to get 60% of the estimated value, after repairing, fees, etc.
I consider our mortgage free home a potential source of LTC funding. A conventional mortgage, a Reverse Mortgage, or perhaps a HELOC might be possible. Or even downsizing into a smaller home could put $100,000 in our pockets.

We are not the type retirees who allow their dwelling to deteriorate into disrepair. I honestly don't get why some folks are only interested in freshening their home when they want to sell, unwilling to spend $$$ to make their home nicer WHEN they are living in it.

Since I am already disabled, I can't purchase LTC insurance. I did look into LTC insurance for DW, but it wasn't something that I would have been excited to purchase.

Along with home equity, we have a Vanguard Variable Annuity that could have money pulled out in various ways for LTC expenses.

And, at least until 2030-2031 we have a lot of Series I Savings Bonds. We would both be 78 around then when they would be cashed in.

Finally, we could become a burden to one or more of our daughters, however I would like to avoid that. They live in nicer homes than DW and I.

Hopefully before that happens perhaps Florida will have joined other states in a totally different kind of end of life plan. Just saying.....

Broken Man 1999
I have thought about this quite a bit as part of my retirement and estate planning. My hope is that my DW and I can self fund end of life care in our home. My goal is to avoid an institutional setting if at all possible. I have posted previously on using HECM LOC for just this purpose. Any costs associated with the HECM I rationalize as the premium on my own LTC insurance. Borrowing against the equity for my benefit on an asset I can't take with me seems like a win to me. I know others here may not agree but it seems logical IMHO.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by ncbill » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:24 pm

dm200 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:53 am

I also plan to keep well informed about "end of life" situations and choices - and hop/plan that my wife and/or other family members are well informed when it comes to my "situation". My brother and sister-in-law (especially my sister-in-law) live in the area where I grew up and were directly involved in "end of life" requirements, choices and options for both my late uncle and late father. As a result, neither one of them was kept "alive" when there would have been no quality of life at all. In the case of my late father, as his condition deteriorated, they appropriately changed the staff instructions at the hospital where he died.

One (of many) detail is the decision about using a "feeding tube". In many cases, a feeding tube can save a person's life and they can return to a normal life - after it is taken out. In other cases, such as end of life situations, a feeding tube prolongs "life" but is real "torture" for the patient. In some (perhaps most) states, there is not a requirement that a feeding tube be used for a patient. However, once a feeding tube is inserted, it cannot be taken out.

I suppose, even elderly patients may have a condition where a feeding tube is appropriate and the elderly patient can return to a quality of life" after the tube is removed. This, in my opinion, is where the patient needs proper documents about this, as well as the responsible family members being well informed about it.
If you are in the USA you can execute a health care POA that grants your health care agent essentially unlimited authority to consent to (or remove consent for) any procedure, including a feeding (PEG) tube.

IMHO everyone should do so...and discuss their end-of-life wishes with that agent.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by VeganBH » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 am
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
You still need money and energy to get to Switzerland.
Yes indeed. That would fall under the good in theory, not so sure about in practice... :wink:
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by LilyFleur » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:35 pm

Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
If we need expensive LTC for an extended period of time, our heirs will have to deal with inheriting less. I am not worried about it.

People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
+1
Good point!

At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
Well, that depends on what type of cognitive decline you experience. Some folks with dementia are nice and sweet and have fun. Others experience paranoia, and that is not pretty. Especially when it causes them to not want to take pills which would help them to feel better :?
(Yes, people with a diagnosed mental illness do not have to take prescribed meds for those conditions. It is illegal to force them to take the meds.)

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:39 pm

ncbill wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:24 pm
dm200 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:53 am

I also plan to keep well informed about "end of life" situations and choices - and hop/plan that my wife and/or other family members are well informed when it comes to my "situation". My brother and sister-in-law (especially my sister-in-law) live in the area where I grew up and were directly involved in "end of life" requirements, choices and options for both my late uncle and late father. As a result, neither one of them was kept "alive" when there would have been no quality of life at all. In the case of my late father, as his condition deteriorated, they appropriately changed the staff instructions at the hospital where he died.

One (of many) detail is the decision about using a "feeding tube". In many cases, a feeding tube can save a person's life and they can return to a normal life - after it is taken out. In other cases, such as end of life situations, a feeding tube prolongs "life" but is real "torture" for the patient. In some (perhaps most) states, there is not a requirement that a feeding tube be used for a patient. However, once a feeding tube is inserted, it cannot be taken out.

I suppose, even elderly patients may have a condition where a feeding tube is appropriate and the elderly patient can return to a quality of life" after the tube is removed. This, in my opinion, is where the patient needs proper documents about this, as well as the responsible family members being well informed about it.
If you are in the USA you can execute a health care POA that grants your health care agent essentially unlimited authority to consent to (or remove consent for) any procedure, including a feeding (PEG) tube.

IMHO everyone should do so...and discuss their end-of-life wishes with that agent.
Absolutely!

So very important for that document to be in place.

I think some people don't like to talk about that issue, but if they don't they do a disservice to themselves, and those making decisions without an idea of what was desired. Actually a bit selfish, IMHO.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Wannaretireearly » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:59 pm

Haven't read every post. My pipe dream is to go back to Europe. They do a better job of looking after the elderly, and public healthcare in general...
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Sandtrap » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:13 pm

LilyFleur wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:35 pm
Sandtrap wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:02 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:00 am
If we need expensive LTC for an extended period of time, our heirs will have to deal with inheriting less. I am not worried about it.

People should, to the extent possible, not rush into retirement.
+1
Good point!

At some certain point, cognitive decline will take hold and there may be some relief from worry and stress? :shock:
j
Well, that depends on what type of cognitive decline you experience. Some folks with dementia are nice and sweet and have fun. Others experience paranoia, and that is not pretty. Especially when it causes them to not want to take pills which would help them to feel better :?
(Yes, people with a diagnosed mental illness do not have to take prescribed meds for those conditions. It is illegal to force them to take the meds.)
Very true.
Good points.
j :happy
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:29 pm

flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:22 am
One thing to remember is that if you are in LTC, you probably are not spending a lot of money on vacations in Europe. Your other expenditures go down a lot. Also remember that equity in a house can be used to fund many LTC situations (for example, flyingaway dies, then later flyingaway spouse needs LTC. Well, in that situation you can sell the house and use that to fund possibly several years of LTC).
I wonder if anyone has SERIOUSLY considered the issue of using house equity as LTC funds.
A house with a senior living there many years is likely not well maintained. To sell such a house, I think it may be lucky to get 60% of the estimated value, after repairing, fees, etc.
I VERY seriously consider it. And I think most people should. I do not think most seniors homes are in a terrible state.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:33 pm

Stinky wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:11 pm
My plan is to have a healthy mind as long as I live.

I hope that I have a healthy body to go along with it.
That's not a plan, that's a hope. But I'm sure you know that ......

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by FIREchief » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 pm

VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 am
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
You still need money and energy to get to Switzerland.
Yes indeed. That would fall under the good in theory, not so sure about in practice... :wink:
A person doesn't need any money for this if they have a credit card to buy the plane ticket. They'll be dead by the time the bill comes..... :twisted:
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:38 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 pm
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 am
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
You still need money and energy to get to Switzerland.
Yes indeed. That would fall under the good in theory, not so sure about in practice... :wink:
A person doesn't need any money for this if they have a credit card to buy the plane ticket. They'll be dead by the time the bill comes..... :twisted:
You don't need go to Switzerland, several states can accommodate last wishes easily.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

TN_Boy
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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:45 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:38 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 pm
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 am
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
You still need money and energy to get to Switzerland.
Yes indeed. That would fall under the good in theory, not so sure about in practice... :wink:
A person doesn't need any money for this if they have a credit card to buy the plane ticket. They'll be dead by the time the bill comes..... :twisted:
You don't need go to Switzerland, several states can accommodate last wishes easily.

Broken Man 1999
The "when I get really sick I'll do away with myself" theme comes up now and then. And it is obviously a real option in some situations.

But it can fail in at least one common (I'll call it common) scenario. You get dementia. You are not going to die from it anytime soon. But, because you have dementia, you have lost the ability to plan out your own demise (people with dementia do not get an email saying "six months from now you are not going to be able to make decisions very well").

So what now? If your spouse is gone, and you can't plan your own endgame, the "vet plan" ain't going to work. Okay, so your spouse IS still around. And the doctor says you could live physically another five or ten years? She can't "take you to the vet" and you can't take yourself.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by GerryL » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:58 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:38 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 pm
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:31 pm
flyingaway wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:43 am
VeganBH wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:45 am
DH and I have had similar talks (plans?) - good in theory, not so sure about in practice. Plus, that inevitably will only work for one of us. We're only 50 - maybe a year out from retirement, but it's something we ponder quite a bit. We're not too concerned about outliving our money (pension/savings/SS) - but we only want to be around if we can enjoy a decent quality of life. We half joke that we both have (want) a "shelf-life". Ah, the devil is in the details here. :?

We do pay attention to assisted suicide laws/leg - in the absence of a terminal illness. It's our understanding this is currently a possibility in Switzerland. So that might be a very good option for us.....

Oh, and we've so far opted NOT to have LTC - as once we get to that point, we'd rather "go see the vet".
You still need money and energy to get to Switzerland.
Yes indeed. That would fall under the good in theory, not so sure about in practice... :wink:
A person doesn't need any money for this if they have a credit card to buy the plane ticket. They'll be dead by the time the bill comes..... :twisted:
You don't need go to Switzerland, several states can accommodate last wishes easily.

Broken Man 1999
FYI. Death With Dignity states have clear restrictions on who can use the law and under what circumstances. In addition to having a diagnosis of likely death within 6 months, you must be of sound mind (cognitive decline? sorry.) and you must be able to administer the life-ending medication to yourself. That leaves out a lot of situations in which people think now that they might want to "pull the plug.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by 7eight9 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:01 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:45 pm

The "when I get really sick I'll do away with myself" theme comes up now and then. And it is obviously a real option in some situations.

But it can fail in at least one common (I'll call it common) scenario. You get dementia. You are not going to die from it anytime soon. But, because you have dementia, you have lost the ability to plan out your own demise (people with dementia do not get an email saying "six months from now you are not going to be able to make decisions very well").

So what now? If your spouse is gone, and you can't plan your own endgame, the "vet plan" ain't going to work. Okay, so your spouse IS still around. And the doctor says you could live physically another five or ten years? She can't "take you to the vet" and you can't take yourself.
Hopefully my spouse would see fit to send me overseas. Just like medical tourism there is a growing trend to relocate overseas for end of life care.

It is a few years out of date but this article discusses the trend - Western nations sending Alzheimer’s patients to Thailand for care.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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Re: What is your plan for the last few years of a long life?

Post by Stinky » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:02 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:33 pm
Stinky wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:11 pm
My plan is to have a healthy mind as long as I live.

I hope that I have a healthy body to go along with it.
That's not a plan, that's a hope. But I'm sure you know that ......
I definitely plan to have a healthy mind as long as I live.

I just hope that I can meet my plan.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

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