Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

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wootwoot
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by wootwoot » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:28 am

His current job will likely garnish his last paycheck to help pay back the loan and after that he's a free man. Most companies won't go after people for things like this, it just isn't worth their time.

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coalcracker
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by coalcracker » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:29 am

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:20 am
I do still think that once you start saying that you're happy to pay back the amount of money you received as a net benefit once they have adjusted your taxes and other costs to reflect you did not receive the bonus, this will go away. That's a lot of work.
I like this strategy. Throw the ball back in their court, and request specific details (in writing) for how exactly to repay the bonus ensuring state and local tax adjustments. At this point they have not even indicated to whom the check should be written.

HornedToad
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HornedToad » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:36 am

You are vastly over thinking this. Wait till november and have the money accessible.

If they withhold it in last paycheck/vacation payout then you are done.
If they ask for it and tell you how to pay them pay it.
If they never send a bill then move on with life

I would definitely pay it if they ask at the time of termination.

oilrig
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by oilrig » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 am

wootwoot wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:28 am
His current job will likely garnish his last paycheck to help pay back the loan and after that he's a free man. Most companies won't go after people for things like this, it just isn't worth their time.
This is not accurate. Almost every company I've worked for (large and small) has gone after those who left and had to pay back a bonus.The company doesn't have to do much besides send out a letter (or multiple letters), then send to collections if the bonus is not paid back.

JackoC
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by JackoC » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 am

NYC_Guy wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:52 pm
Commercial contracts don’t create ethical obligations. Corporations breach contracts all the time when it makes economic sense. The law supports it - it’s called efficient breach. In my opinion, one should feel no sense of ethical obligation to a corporation that is, by definition, an amoral animal. If it is in one’s economic interest to breach, one should feel no compulsion to impose an ethical duty to perform. The corporation that is the counterparty certainly won’t. A classic example is a nonrecourse mortgage — I urge people to walk away if it makes sense to do so. Commercial parties do it all the time.

If HR is effectively telling your father they won’t pursue it, then he shouldn’t feel an ethical obligation to repay.
+1. Maybe it's partly cultural, I'm also an 'NY Guy' (though I call my native city by its name, New York). :happy

Anyway unless/until the company formally demands the money back I don't see any factual answer to this question, just competing subjective views on how ethics combines with commerce. Surely there is an intersection between the two , but much room for debate exactly where it is. In a case like this I'm firmly on the side of saying it's up to the company to demand the money back. A representative has already intimated they won't. And if they don't they will have waived that clause, end of story, IMO.

If they did demand the money back there would be a separate factual legal question of whether that's enforceable. 'But you signed it' doesn't necessarily make it legally enforceable. IANAL but having been both on employee and employer side of disputes I know from experience that employment contract case law makes allowances for the fact that employers have all the leverage with new employees wanting to start off amicably with their new company, to put legally unenforceable clauses into employment contracts. Although others on the thread said from apparent claimed personal authority that this particular clause would be enforceable (or could be in some jurisdictions at least). They may be right. But again it's a separate factual question if/when the company formally asks for the money.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:15 am

I admit I was having issues with not repaying the bonus if they didn't ask for it. But I remembered this morning, I did something similar way back in 1976. I was working on my Masters degree with tuition reimbursement from my employer conditioned on me not leaving for one or two years afterwards. I forget which. So I finished the program in the spring, got my tuition reimbursed, and was out of there a few months later. They didn't ask me to repay it, and I didn't . Granted, the amount was nowhere near OP's onus, but the principle is the same.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

wootwoot
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by wootwoot » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:17 am

oilrig wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 am
wootwoot wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:28 am
His current job will likely garnish his last paycheck to help pay back the loan and after that he's a free man. Most companies won't go after people for things like this, it just isn't worth their time.
This is not accurate. Almost every company I've worked for (large and small) has gone after those who left and had to pay back a bonus.The company doesn't have to do much besides send out a letter (or multiple letters), then send to collections if the bonus is not paid back.
Speak for yourself. I've seen multiple people at different mid-size companies walk away and none of the companies went after the money beyond wage garnishment. The worst that happened is one employee was let go right after putting in their 2 weeks.

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greg24
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by greg24 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:06 am

JackoC wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 am
Anyway unless/until the company formally demands the money back
They delivered a separation letter where they reminded him they expected the money.

smitcat
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by smitcat » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:13 am

greg24 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:06 am
JackoC wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 am
Anyway unless/until the company formally demands the money back
They delivered a separation letter where they reminded him they expected the money.
Yes - I worked for a larger company that bought a smaller competitor. They had some of these 'paybacks' on the ledger and you can be sure that the company I worked for did go after these 'debts' and collected.
YMMV

Nowizard
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Nowizard » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:15 am

This is a question of ethics, as you said, and there are two possibilities: 1. Solely basing decision on personal ethics; 2. Considering what "can" be done from a financial standpoint, as it interacts with personal ethics and determining whether one is rationalizing for financial gain or not.

Tim

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:23 am

cherijoh wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:09 am
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm
dcabler wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:05 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:44 pm
wilked wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:39 pm
If I signed a contract I would live up to it. I am surprised at the folks above who say otherwise.

I work in Engineering, and in my industry it's a small world. I wouldn't want the reputation of someone who tries to wriggle out of an obligation
At megacorps it is not the hiring manager’s job to enforce corporate policy like bonus clawbacks. Even if the bonus is clawed back it sure doesn’t go back into the hiring manager’s budget. Likely the hiring manager won’t even know whether the bonus is repaid or not.

Why should the OP be concerned about the Megacorp’s lack of operational procedures?
Hired a guy into my team at engineering megacorp with a sign-on bonus. He left after 6 months to pursue greener pastures and the employment agreement stipulated that he would owe a portion of his sign-on bonus back (A pro-rated amount). He tried to negotiate not having to pay any of it back with HR and they brought it to me, the hiring manager, and asked my opinion. While it wasn't my job to enforce it, the signing bonus did come out of my budget and I requested that the employment agreement be enforced. It was. Funny thing is that several years later, his resume' appeared on my desk again. You can probably guess what became of it. :D As noted above, the engineering world is smaller than people realize. And memories are a lot longer than people may realized.
Wait, you tossed his resume merely because he asked if he could pay back a portion of his signing bonus??? Penalizing somebody simply for attempting to negotiate reflects a lot more on you than him.
I think you may have missed the section of dcabler's post I highlighted. This guy was already only being asked to payback a portion of a sign-on bonus. (Total fair IMO). He didn't want to payback anything even though he agreed to do so when he accepted the sign-on bonus.

If they had wanted the whole thing back and he tried to negotiate a partial payback that would have been one thing. But he obviously didn't care about burning bridges at his old company, so why give him a second chance to do the same thing or similar again? Sign-on bonuses stipulate that you stay how long - a year? 18 months? Who needs a job-hopper like that? Fool me once, shame on you....

I wouldn't have considered his resume a second time either. If he wanted to negotiate, it should have been with the new company to get them to make him whole since they were getting what they wanted. He may have already used it in salary negotiations and then tried to double dip. Karma.
I didn’t miss that part. How is it relevant? It is not unethical to ask for consideration. When told he had to pay the full amount, did he refuse to do so? If not, I am not sure what the issue is. Since when is asking a question grounds for blacklisting someone? If a position isn’t a good fit, it is in neither party’s best interests for the employee to stick it out. This is another example of the asymmetrical demand for employees to show loyalty but not employers. It’s just business. But blacklisting somebody for something like this isn’t just business, it’s personal.

wrongfunds
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:26 pm

Unless and until the corporation dots all the eyes and crosses all the tees regarding how reconciliation of taxes withheld and deduction taken from the bonus check will be handled, OP should do nothing.

JackoC
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by JackoC » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:49 pm

greg24 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:06 am
JackoC wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:38 am
Anyway unless/until the company formally demands the money back
They delivered a separation letter where they reminded him they expected the money.
I was going on this from first post

"When speaking with the HR representative at his offices, he was told something to the effect that the rep would be very surprised if the corporation would pursue repayment if he decided to not pay it back *winkwinknudgenudge*. "

And which mentioned no letter and asked 'Would you consider delaying the payback until if/when corporate comes a-knocking at some point in the future?" I admit a habit of not always reading every follow up by OP's who dribble out relevant info they could just have given upfront. :happy But the company's position seemed based on what I read to be ambiguous. Also the weird statement "November was the earliest his current employer would let him leave" was never fully clarified that I saw. If a contract says an employee only gets a *2019* bonus if they work until at least Nov 2019 an employer can definitely refuse to pay it if the employee leaves now, and in that sense 'the employer won't let them leave'. Separately, it might be enforceable to say a 2018 bonus already paid has to be paid back if the employee doesn't work all of 2019. But an employer is on far shakier ground than either of those cases to try legally to literally force somebody to work for just their normal pay until a certain date. So, a logical explanation of this situation might really be that the company very much *wants* OP's dad to *do them the favor* of working until November, and/or is softly or more aggressively coercing the employee with threats to their reputation or dubious prospect of legal action by the company to force the person to come to work and/or deny them the right to practice their livelihood elsewhere. That sounds like a negotiation, one part of which could be waiving the 2018 bonus clawback.

Anyway besides the typical question on the forum that doesn't entirely make sense at least as presented, just in principal I disagree with people saying there's an ethical obligation to proactively fulfill terms of commercial contracts the counterparty suggests they might waive. When you're dealing with big boys and girls, business is business. If a company has given you any mixed messages about whether you owe them money (and the HR person is part of the 'them', their representative in the severance process) they should not whine about your ethics until they make it 110% clear they are claiming the money. At which time the employee IMO is justified to ask a lawyer if that demand is legally enforceable and factor that in also.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Presintense » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:00 pm

greg24 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:22 pm
If his contract stipulates repayment if he leaves, it would be unethical to attempt to avoid repayment.
+1 on holding up his end of the executed agreement.

Additional .02 : Wink wink nudge nudge is insight into the integrity of the former company's HR who has a responsibility to represent the interest of the company.
Performance = Potential - Distraction

vtjon02
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by vtjon02 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:03 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:21 pm
anonenigma wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm
Delay departure to 1/1/20?
November was the earliest his current employer would let him leave.
I haven't read all of the replies but in my opinion the above is where your Dad had his opportunity to keep the bonus. His work didn't own him. Saying that he would have to work that long of a notice period is likely illegal and definitely not typical. Your dad should have said he either wanted to leave immediately to be in the new position or would stay until November but wants it in writing that he is not liable for repayment. It might be too late now but he could still try if the new employer will accommodate him earlier. He also should have tried to negotiate a signing bonus with the new company.

As to your original question I would pay the bonus out of an ethical obligation. Everybody will have their own views on this. He should do whatever he is comfortable with and then sleep well with his decision.

wolf359
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by wolf359 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:15 pm

renue74 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:21 pm
anonenigma wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm
Delay departure to 1/1/20?
+1 . I would hang on for the last couple months for that $.

Tell the new employer the situation...that a large bonus is at stake.
+1
New employer may cover the loss if they want him bad enough.

JackoC
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by JackoC » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:39 pm

vtjon02 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:03 pm
coalcracker wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:21 pm
anonenigma wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm
Delay departure to 1/1/20?
November was the earliest his current employer would let him leave.
I haven't read all of the replies but in my opinion the above is where your Dad had his opportunity to keep the bonus. His work didn't own him. Saying that he would have to work that long of a notice period is likely illegal and definitely not typical. Your dad should have said he either wanted to leave immediately to be in the new position or would stay until November but wants it in writing that he is not liable for repayment. It might be too late now but he could still try if the new employer will accommodate him earlier. He also should have tried to negotiate a signing bonus with the new company.

As to your original question I would pay the bonus out of an ethical obligation. Everybody will have their own views on this. He should do whatever he is comfortable with and then sleep well with his decision.
That has been mentioned a couple of times, I think I was second to, but it's still a good point: it's never been explained exactly what 'November was the earliest they'd let him leave' means, or OP or dad thinks it means. Directly compelling people to come to work for their normal pay just because their contract has not expired is very dicey legally if possible at all. You can easily do it indirectly with a contract that holds back some compensation to the end: you don't work to the end, you don't get it. In fact that's how it's almost always done IME. And if so in that sense they 'didn't let you leave'. But I've never heard of a (civilian) job where somebody was actually forced to work to a date to get...nothing at the end, just their normal pay along the way, and here it's to a date close to the end of the year plus, voila, that also means the 2018 bonus at least technically gets clawed back after working almost all of 2019.

Frankly I think there's a question of weakness v standing up for oneself here as it's been described. And I think a self image of super honesty is sometimes, not necessarily but can be, an excuse people use not to stand up for themselves if it means any confrontation or unpleasantness. IMO it's pretty clear here that invoking 'ethics' to absolutely pay back the 2018 bonus then ignoring the issue of 'has to work till November' (why? who is going to make him?) is just being weak. But you're right, you have to do what's best for you depending who you are, and of course it has to be legal too.
Last edited by JackoC on Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:40 pm

wolf359 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:15 pm
renue74 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:21 pm
anonenigma wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm
Delay departure to 1/1/20?
+1 . I would hang on for the last couple months for that $.
Tell the new employer the situation...that a large bonus is at stake.
+1
New employer may cover the loss if they want him bad enough.
Is everything open to renegotiation? Lordy. You signed something, didn’t think it through before agreeing to start on a date certain with new employer, and now you want either the old or the new employer to correct your mistake? I thought doctors were smarter than engineers :D just kidding.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by fru-gal » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:47 pm

Unless I missed it, we still haven't heard from the OP about what this must work until November thing is.

aarondearu
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by aarondearu » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:54 pm

Hi OP, if the company wants the bonus back and it’s not repaid here is the likely outcome...

Company will probably not garnish the last paycheck because payroll won’t know in time. Few months later a collection agency will start calling and sending letters. Your father can tell them to stop contacting him. They will then report the unpaid debt and it will stay on your father’s credit report for 7 years. If he tries to obtain a loan (want to refinance or buy a new home?) the lender will require the debt to be paid as a condition of the loan.

[For those who don’t understand what a retention bonus is, OPs father signed a contract saying he would work until a specific date in exchange for a bonus. They can quit anytime they want but must repay the bonus if they leave before the date agreed upon in the contract.]

btenny
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by btenny » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:13 pm

Have your Dad send a letter to his employer. In the letter notify them he is giving giving them four weeks notice of leaving. Tell them he was happy to help the company out by staying until November. But now they are asking for return of his bonus. So they are asking him to work an extra 2 months and then they want to penalize him with the bonus penalty. That is bad. Then tell them in the letter that he is willing to stay until November IF AND ONLY IF they respond and waive the bonus recovery clause in writing. Give them two weeks to respond. If they do not respond correctly in the two week period tell him to leave on the four seek notice data. I would round off the date to August 30. Help him write the letter quickly and make sure he turns it in now so the company has some pressure to solve the worker short fall.

Good luck to you both.

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coalcracker
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by coalcracker » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:42 pm

fru-gal wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:47 pm
Unless I missed it, we still haven't heard from the OP about what this must work until November thing is.
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:40 pm
Is everything open to renegotiation? Lordy. You signed something, didn’t think it through before agreeing to start on a date certain with new employer, and now you want either the old or the new employer to correct your mistake? I thought doctors were smarter than engineers just kidding.
OP again.

I don't want to go into exquisite detail to protect his privacy (and because it's a long story), but here are the salient points.

1. He has not been happy at current job for quite a while, for multiple reasons, and had been keeping his feelers out there "unofficially" for other opportunities
2. Position at new job became available quickly and unexpectedly, both for the new employer and from my dad's perspective
3. New employer wanted to fill position ASAP, as in yesterday
4. Father's contract stipulates a 3-month out (as I said, not uncommon in medicine).
5. New employer, being in medicine, understands but still wants to hire. (Credentialing for a new physician hire typically takes 2-3 months anyway, so it's not like he could actually start tomorrow.) They still want him ASAP, i.e. November not January. The reason why is not completely clear to me.
6. The salary and benefits package was very generous and, for this or whatever reason, he did not pursue a sign-on bonus.

wolf359
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by wolf359 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:20 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:40 pm
wolf359 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:15 pm
renue74 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:21 pm
anonenigma wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm
Delay departure to 1/1/20?
+1 . I would hang on for the last couple months for that $.
Tell the new employer the situation...that a large bonus is at stake.
+1
New employer may cover the loss if they want him bad enough.
Is everything open to renegotiation? Lordy. You signed something, didn’t think it through before agreeing to start on a date certain with new employer, and now you want either the old or the new employer to correct your mistake? I thought doctors were smarter than engineers :D just kidding.
Well, to be honest, when I've faced this situation I was upfront with my new employer BEFORE the situation occurred. I had to start after a certain date in order to meet my obligations. If they wanted me sooner, they needed to resolve that issue or wait. So, not renegotiation.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:48 pm

wolf359 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:20 pm
Well, to be honest, when I've faced this situation I was upfront with my new employer BEFORE the situation occurred. I had to start after a certain date in order to meet my obligations. If they wanted me sooner, they needed to resolve that issue or wait. So, not renegotiation.
I’m familiar with large banks, where 3 to 12 months of “garden leave” are normal at a level; you resign, you get paid for the contracted amount of garden leave, and you can’t start at your new employer until then. Many “cheat” a little by reading emails from new employer or having lunch with the new folks, a very few cheat a lot by going into the office and sitting in on meetings. Nobody that I know has on-boarded at new employer before the time is up.

The bonuses (deferred and retention) at old employer are routinely “bought out” by new employer, typically in a stock swap.

I don’t know of anyone, in banking, trying to renegotiate terms afterwards with the new employer.

What you describe, in your case, IMO is not renegotiation
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

Jim Beaux
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Jim Beaux » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:06 pm

Basically, as I understand the issue, the current employer is demanding a return of income that was previously earned a year ago?? -- Naw man! Not today without a fight kemosabe!
Its common for employers to include items in employee contracts that wont stand in court. (many non compete clauses are unenforceable) I would check in with a lawyer who knows more than we do 8-)

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:36 pm

Ethics are driven by character. You father made an agreement to fulfill his contract.

He has chosen to break his contract.

The ethical thing to do is clear, and unambiguous.

Me, I would accept the claw back as the proper thing to do.

Ethics are those things you do that others may not see, but you know what you should do.

Depends on you father's value system.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

wrongfunds
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by wrongfunds » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:59 pm

Ethics are something that you certainly should NOT ask others as the ethics are all yours. One could ask "what would you do?" but how would that be actionable?

tesuzuki2002
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by tesuzuki2002 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:10 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:14 pm

He works for a subsidiary of a large regional corporation (20,000+ employees), and he would be required to pay the bonus back to "the corporation." When speaking with the HR representative at his offices, he was told something to the effect that the rep would be very surprised if the corporation would pursue repayment if he decided to not pay it back *winkwinknudgenudge*. He was surprised and a bit taken aback.

Would you consider delaying the payback until if/when corporate comes a-knocking at some point in the future? Legally, if they call his bluff, he will need to pay back per his contract. But the amount of money is nothing to sneeze at, and he will have "earned" at least some of the bonus by working most of 2019.

Edit: Staying until 1/1/2020 is not an option. His future employer needs him before that time, and is unwilling to let him stay the year.


I was in a similar.... this was for tuition payback... My then current employer had a 4 year retention / pay back period... I got a wink wink and nudge that they wouldn't really seek compensation it was a scare tactic... My mitigation was that I asked my new prospective employer for the option to have that $42K paid if my soon to be former employer came asking for it. They acquiesced and I had that written in to my new contract.

I moved forward and left my employer for the next. I received a bill for payback of said tuition, before I even received my final paycheck. The terms were 30 days to pay it. I took that into HR the week after I started at my new job along with my contract and said I'm going to need you to pay this.

The bill got paid....

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by mountains » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:21 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:42 pm
4. Father's contract stipulates a 3-month out (as I said, not uncommon in medicine).
One consideration is whether the 3-month is actually enforceable in his state. Might we worth having a conversation with an employment lawyer about this. If the 3 month is not enforceable, your Dad can consider making his staying until November contingent on receiving the bonus or leaving right away.

ReadyOrNot
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by ReadyOrNot » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:29 pm

Seems everyone knows the ethical thing to do. What makes the decision hard is the amount of money is tough to walk away from. You would probably take pains to return your employers tools and books even if they wouldn't track them or know you had them.

Does he really need the money? If so, you have enough reasons to make ethical compromises. If not, don't worry about leaving money on the table. Keeping your ethical integrity is worth it to yourself -- don't worry about what others think. Expensive but worth it.

For philosophical justification, Bogle wrote that there is not enough 18th century thinking. One of those thinkers, Adam Smith, thought you would live a happier life by following what your unseen moral observer (your conscience) would do.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomerJ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:36 pm

T4REngineer wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:46 pm
If I understand this correctly, your father agreed to take a lump sum of money that stipulated he stay to the end of 2019 otherwise forfeit. He has written request to pay this back because he is choosing to leave in Nov. but because he ALMOST stayed somehow only a part of it should be paid back?

How on earth is this even a question,I would love to post a "contractor paid upfront, did 90% job and wants to stop work , can not finish job due to taking a higher profit/easier work elsewhere, offered 10% back, should I take it or fight it? or even better frame it in some sort of bonus for finishing early such as paid an extra 10,000 to finish in Nov, non expedited job was expected in Jan - took till December but contractor only offering 5,000 back........that would go over well here.
This is correct.
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:56 pm

Those saying the ethical thing to do is clear and unambiguous are wrong. Contracts are not one sided and are written to be. Contracts contain 2 parts, 1.) this is what we agree to do, and 2.) this is what happens if one or both parties decide they want to do something else instead. Choosing 2 is every bit as ethical as choosing 1. They are both equally "honoring the contract." This just isn't an ethical issue and those who claim it is haven't thought it through.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomerJ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:10 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm
dcabler wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:05 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:44 pm
wilked wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:39 pm
If I signed a contract I would live up to it. I am surprised at the folks above who say otherwise.

I work in Engineering, and in my industry it's a small world. I wouldn't want the reputation of someone who tries to wriggle out of an obligation
At megacorps it is not the hiring manager’s job to enforce corporate policy like bonus clawbacks. Even if the bonus is clawed back it sure doesn’t go back into the hiring manager’s budget. Likely the hiring manager won’t even know whether the bonus is repaid or not.

Why should the OP be concerned about the Megacorp’s lack of operational procedures?
Hired a guy into my team at engineering megacorp with a sign-on bonus. He left after 6 months to pursue greener pastures and the employment agreement stipulated that he would owe a portion of his sign-on bonus back (A pro-rated amount). He tried to negotiate not having to pay any of it back with HR and they brought it to me, the hiring manager, and asked my opinion. While it wasn't my job to enforce it, the signing bonus did come out of my budget and I requested that the employment agreement be enforced. It was. Funny thing is that several years later, his resume' appeared on my desk again. You can probably guess what became of it. :D As noted above, the engineering world is smaller than people realize. And memories are a lot longer than people may realized.
Wait, you tossed his resume merely because he asked if he could pay back a portion of his signing bonus??? Penalizing somebody simply for attempting to negotiate reflects a lot more on you than him.
He tossed him for leaving after 6 months the first time... You don't hire someone who leaves after 6 months.

It doesn't matter how good you are... Someone who leaves that fast is a net negative for the company.
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Seasonal » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:30 pm

NYC_Guy wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:56 pm
mighty72 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:36 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:18 pm
A duly appointed company representative more or less told you that you didn’t have to repay it. Case closed. If you think if will harm you not to repay it, then do so. There are no ethical considerations at play. If you choose to take your chances, you will have to deal with the consequences. Either choice is equally ethical.
The contract is in writing, the conversation is not. It has no value in court of law or opinion
This is legal advice, and it’s bad legal advice. And I am a lawyer.
True, but it's a lot easier to prove the contents of a written agreement than an oral conversation. Also, many contracts provide that they may only be modified in writing.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by F150HD » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:33 pm

My father gave notice that he will be quitting his job in November 2019. Per the language of his contract, he is required to payback the entirety of a bonus (low-mid 5 figures) which was distributed end of 2018
So he got :moneybag in 2018, claimed it on his 2018 taxes (paid tax on it) then has to pay back the initial amount. When all is said and done, taking that bonus will actually cost him money.
The expected loss of a bonus should have been negotiated with the new employer, typically as a sign-on bonus. In all scenarios I would pay the bonus back. Best of luck.
+1

(I did not read all 3 pages of replies)
Last edited by F150HD on Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Seasonal » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:34 pm

mountains wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:21 pm
coalcracker wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:42 pm
4. Father's contract stipulates a 3-month out (as I said, not uncommon in medicine).
One consideration is whether the 3-month is actually enforceable in his state. Might we worth having a conversation with an employment lawyer about this. If the 3 month is not enforceable, your Dad can consider making his staying until November contingent on receiving the bonus or leaving right away.
Agreed. I'd always heard that you can't contractually force anyone to work. Is the 3-month out backed by anything (e.g., a non-compete)?

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by KyleAAA » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:46 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:10 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm
dcabler wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:05 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:44 pm
wilked wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:39 pm
If I signed a contract I would live up to it. I am surprised at the folks above who say otherwise.

I work in Engineering, and in my industry it's a small world. I wouldn't want the reputation of someone who tries to wriggle out of an obligation
At megacorps it is not the hiring manager’s job to enforce corporate policy like bonus clawbacks. Even if the bonus is clawed back it sure doesn’t go back into the hiring manager’s budget. Likely the hiring manager won’t even know whether the bonus is repaid or not.

Why should the OP be concerned about the Megacorp’s lack of operational procedures?
Hired a guy into my team at engineering megacorp with a sign-on bonus. He left after 6 months to pursue greener pastures and the employment agreement stipulated that he would owe a portion of his sign-on bonus back (A pro-rated amount). He tried to negotiate not having to pay any of it back with HR and they brought it to me, the hiring manager, and asked my opinion. While it wasn't my job to enforce it, the signing bonus did come out of my budget and I requested that the employment agreement be enforced. It was. Funny thing is that several years later, his resume' appeared on my desk again. You can probably guess what became of it. :D As noted above, the engineering world is smaller than people realize. And memories are a lot longer than people may realized.
Wait, you tossed his resume merely because he asked if he could pay back a portion of his signing bonus??? Penalizing somebody simply for attempting to negotiate reflects a lot more on you than him.
He tossed him for leaving after 6 months the first time... You don't hire someone who leaves after 6 months.

It doesn't matter how good you are... Someone who leaves that fast is a net negative for the company.
Not really. If there is a good fit for the next position, it would be a great idea to hire him back. It's true that the first stint was probably a net negative to the company, but that is a sunk cost. You'd have to assume the person will also leave after 6 months the next time, which is not really a justifiable assumption based on the data provided.

This is another example of the assymetric expectation that employees must display loyalty but employers don't. Ask yourself if this were an arms-length business transaction where you sold a large quantity of product to a customer but they decided utilize your return policy and get a refund. Would you refuse to ever sell to them again? Probably not. Why he double standard for this equivalent situation? Employment is an arms length business transaction.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Archimedes » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm

The three month notice period prior to departure is standard in many physician employment contracts. If you just up and quit without adequate notice, you could potentially be reported to the state medical board for patient abandonment and have a negative action taken against your medical license.

And on a practical level, you cannot start with a new employer until you have been credentialed, a process that takes 60-90 days. There are many regulatory hoops to jump through for physicians. It is not at all like a typical job.

Finally, many physician contracts have signing bonuses that are actually structured as a retention bonus in the form of a loan that is forgiven at a future date. If you leave before the date of the loan forgiveness, you owe the money back. You would have signed the loan document with a promise to pay until forgiven. These clauses are structured that way because the loss of money that you have already received is way more painful to give back than a future bonus not yet received. These contracts play on human aversion to loss, golden handcuffs, so to speak. Physician jobs that require golden handcuffs for retention are a big red flag.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by unclescrooge » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:55 pm

Iridium wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:27 pm
barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:54 pm
greg24 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:44 pm
coalcracker wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:53 pm
To clarify (and perhaps change opinions), he did receive a letter stating terms of departure which included a line like: "corporation will be expecting repayment of $xx,xxx bonus by the last day of your employment."
For those who are saying the company needs to ask him to pay it....
They also need to provide a method to do so. I bet they have no actual process in place to get the bonus back and properly report it to the IRS.
Depending on the size, I would guess they do. Granted, slightly different situation, but I was overpaid by a Megacorp (they kept depositing my salary after I quit). It took them something like 3 months, but they eventually got around to sending me a form letter asking me to pay them back and even included a helpful info sheet on the tax implications. The fact that it was a generic form letter sticks with me to this day: overpaid salaries are apparently common enough that not only do they have an official process, they couldn't even be bothered to write a personal letter.
Did you keep the red stapler at least? :mrgreen:

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by jjface » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:12 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:24 pm
It was not a sign on bonus. They call it a "retention bonus"
Quite frankly if it is a retention bonus and he didn't stay the full length of time then he ought to pay it back. Assuming he is not going to contest it legally.

However I would certainly ask for them to prepare a formal statement from payroll of the amount owed correctly adjusting for taxes. As well as details of who to remit payment to and how to pay (check, eft etc). I don't think you have any ethical responsibility to pay it until they have done their job properly.

I would first ask for that clause to be waived due to 11 months of valuable services rendered. If they insist on sticking to the letter of the contract then I would too and make sure I didn't do them any favors. It would be nice to leave the office "on time" for once! But I didn't read what kind of job it was so that may not be practical.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomerJ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:39 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:21 pm
anonenigma wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm
Delay departure to 1/1/20?
Unfortunately (or fortunately) he took a position elsewhere and they need him ASAP. November was the earliest his current employer would let him leave.
That is really weird.

They don't get to tell him how long he can stay. He's not a slave. I think he should go back and say "I'll stay until November, but then I keep the retention bonus... Otherwise I'm gone in a month (or heck, tomorrow)."

Very strange situation here.
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomerJ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:46 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:46 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:10 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm
dcabler wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:05 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:44 pm


At megacorps it is not the hiring manager’s job to enforce corporate policy like bonus clawbacks. Even if the bonus is clawed back it sure doesn’t go back into the hiring manager’s budget. Likely the hiring manager won’t even know whether the bonus is repaid or not.

Why should the OP be concerned about the Megacorp’s lack of operational procedures?
Hired a guy into my team at engineering megacorp with a sign-on bonus. He left after 6 months to pursue greener pastures and the employment agreement stipulated that he would owe a portion of his sign-on bonus back (A pro-rated amount). He tried to negotiate not having to pay any of it back with HR and they brought it to me, the hiring manager, and asked my opinion. While it wasn't my job to enforce it, the signing bonus did come out of my budget and I requested that the employment agreement be enforced. It was. Funny thing is that several years later, his resume' appeared on my desk again. You can probably guess what became of it. :D As noted above, the engineering world is smaller than people realize. And memories are a lot longer than people may realized.
Wait, you tossed his resume merely because he asked if he could pay back a portion of his signing bonus??? Penalizing somebody simply for attempting to negotiate reflects a lot more on you than him.
He tossed him for leaving after 6 months the first time... You don't hire someone who leaves after 6 months.

It doesn't matter how good you are... Someone who leaves that fast is a net negative for the company.
Not really. If there is a good fit for the next position, it would be a great idea to hire him back. It's true that the first stint was probably a net negative to the company, but that is a sunk cost. You'd have to assume the person will also leave after 6 months the next time, which is not really a justifiable assumption based on the data provided.
It absolutely is a justifiable assumption based on the data provided. You have one data point, and it absolutely proves that he is willing to leave a company after 6 months. YOUR company, even.

There's no way I'd ever hire back someone who left after 6 months...
This is another example of the assymetric expectation that employees must display loyalty but employers don't. Ask yourself if this were an arms-length business transaction where you sold a large quantity of product to a customer but they decided utilize your return policy and get a refund. Would you refuse to ever sell to them again? Probably not. Why he double standard for this equivalent situation? Employment is an arms length business transaction.
I don't think your comparison is apt. It's not about loyalty.. It's about business. Your example is the opposite direction.

If I BOUGHT a large quantity of a product, and it was sub-par, and they wouldn't give me a refund, I'd never buy from them again.
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by coalcracker » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:34 am

Archimedes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm
The three month notice period prior to departure is standard in many physician employment contracts. If you just up and quit without adequate notice, you could potentially be reported to the state medical board for patient abandonment and have a negative action taken against your medical license.

And on a practical level, you cannot start with a new employer until you have been credentialed, a process that takes 60-90 days. There are many regulatory hoops to jump through for physicians. It is not at all like a typical job.

Finally, many physician contracts have signing bonuses that are actually structured as a retention bonus in the form of a loan that is forgiven at a future date. If you leave before the date of the loan forgiveness, you owe the money back. You would have signed the loan document with a promise to pay until forgiven. These clauses are structured that way because the loss of money that you have already received is way more painful to give back than a future bonus not yet received. These contracts play on human aversion to loss, golden handcuffs, so to speak. Physician jobs that require golden handcuffs for retention are a big red flag.
^^This

Those more familiar with the business/engineering world-who keep asking why he can’t just leave before November-frankly don’t know what you are talking about.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomeStretch » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:06 am

coalcracker wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:34 am
Archimedes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm
The three month notice period prior to departure is standard in many physician employment contracts. If you just up and quit without adequate notice, you could potentially be reported to the state medical board for patient abandonment and have a negative action taken against your medical license.
^^This

Those more familiar with the business/engineering world-who keep asking why he can’t just leave before November-frankly don’t know what you are talking about.
IMO I don’t believe that people who have responded don’t know what they are talking about. We have all tried to respond as best we could with the limited information you provided in your original post. It’s taken 143 posts to tease out additional details like your dad is a doctor, the payment in question was a RETENTION bonus, that if he leaves before the end of the retention period there are possible medical board issues, etc.

The original post was “vague to protect anonymity”. That’s understandable. But it’s also understandable that, as a result, not all responses are spot on. I think your dad through you has received some good advice. Best of luck to him.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by Yellowhouse » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:04 am

Here's the skinny...since your dad put himself into this position, he absolutely needs to live up to the terms of the payback agreement. Your dad should've been wise enough to negotiate his way around this debacle. He possibly could've negotiated with his future or new employer to at least pay half of the owed money since they won't allow him to work the money off at his current job.

Threads like this really bring out the worst in people. It shines a very bright light on their greedy way of thinking...

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by JackoC » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:35 am

coalcracker wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:34 am
Archimedes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm
The three month notice period prior to departure is standard in many physician employment contracts. If you just up and quit without adequate notice, you could potentially be reported to the state medical board for patient abandonment and have a negative action taken against your medical license.

And on a practical level, you cannot start with a new employer until you have been credentialed, a process that takes 60-90 days. There are many regulatory hoops to jump through for physicians. It is not at all like a typical job.

Finally, many physician contracts have signing bonuses that are actually structured as a retention bonus in the form of a loan that is forgiven at a future date. If you leave before the date of the loan forgiveness, you owe the money back. You would have signed the loan document with a promise to pay until forgiven. These clauses are structured that way because the loss of money that you have already received is way more painful to give back than a future bonus not yet received. These contracts play on human aversion to loss, golden handcuffs, so to speak. Physician jobs that require golden handcuffs for retention are a big red flag.
^^This

Those more familiar with the business/engineering world-who keep asking why he can’t just leave before November-frankly don’t know what you are talking about.
That's really pretty rich after you gave everybody the run around for 3 pages by not giving that detail, of somebody who isn't even being named. Why not just keep the whole thing to yourself if it's too sensitive to give the relevant details? :happy There's still probably relevant stuff left out.

But besides this very murky partially described situation, there is simply *not* one simple ethical answer to questions like this. If you leave out the fact that one sided unenforceable clauses are often put in employment contracts to take advantage of new employees' particular reluctance to have disputes with new employers it's not including the whole picture. And that's how people reach wrong decisions, or excuse their own weakness in standing up for themselves as their 'high ethics'. Again not necessarily this case, who knows the details of this case.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by KyleAAA » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:25 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:46 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:46 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:10 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:25 pm
dcabler wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:05 pm


Hired a guy into my team at engineering megacorp with a sign-on bonus. He left after 6 months to pursue greener pastures and the employment agreement stipulated that he would owe a portion of his sign-on bonus back (A pro-rated amount). He tried to negotiate not having to pay any of it back with HR and they brought it to me, the hiring manager, and asked my opinion. While it wasn't my job to enforce it, the signing bonus did come out of my budget and I requested that the employment agreement be enforced. It was. Funny thing is that several years later, his resume' appeared on my desk again. You can probably guess what became of it. :D As noted above, the engineering world is smaller than people realize. And memories are a lot longer than people may realized.
Wait, you tossed his resume merely because he asked if he could pay back a portion of his signing bonus??? Penalizing somebody simply for attempting to negotiate reflects a lot more on you than him.
He tossed him for leaving after 6 months the first time... You don't hire someone who leaves after 6 months.

It doesn't matter how good you are... Someone who leaves that fast is a net negative for the company.
Not really. If there is a good fit for the next position, it would be a great idea to hire him back. It's true that the first stint was probably a net negative to the company, but that is a sunk cost. You'd have to assume the person will also leave after 6 months the next time, which is not really a justifiable assumption based on the data provided.
It absolutely is a justifiable assumption based on the data provided. You have one data point, and it absolutely proves that he is willing to leave a company after 6 months. YOUR company, even.

There's no way I'd ever hire back someone who left after 6 months...
This is another example of the assymetric expectation that employees must display loyalty but employers don't. Ask yourself if this were an arms-length business transaction where you sold a large quantity of product to a customer but they decided utilize your return policy and get a refund. Would you refuse to ever sell to them again? Probably not. Why he double standard for this equivalent situation? Employment is an arms length business transaction.
I don't think your comparison is apt. It's not about loyalty.. It's about business. Your example is the opposite direction.

If I BOUGHT a large quantity of a product, and it was sub-par, and they wouldn't give me a refund, I'd never buy from them again.
The opposite direction is apples to oranges because you don't buy an employee and You don't pay them in advance. You contract for their labor on a per period basis. You didn't buy 1 year and get gipped, you had an explicitly open ended relationship where it was clear to both parties that either could terminate it at any time. And then you get upset when somebody plays by the rules you created? That is irrational.

And the correct course of action when you don't have enough information to draw a conclusion is not to draw a conclusion, not knowingly draw a poor conclusion anyway.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by EddyB » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:34 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:34 am
Archimedes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm
The three month notice period prior to departure is standard in many physician employment contracts. If you just up and quit without adequate notice, you could potentially be reported to the state medical board for patient abandonment and have a negative action taken against your medical license.

And on a practical level, you cannot start with a new employer until you have been credentialed, a process that takes 60-90 days. There are many regulatory hoops to jump through for physicians. It is not at all like a typical job.

Finally, many physician contracts have signing bonuses that are actually structured as a retention bonus in the form of a loan that is forgiven at a future date. If you leave before the date of the loan forgiveness, you owe the money back. You would have signed the loan document with a promise to pay until forgiven. These clauses are structured that way because the loss of money that you have already received is way more painful to give back than a future bonus not yet received. These contracts play on human aversion to loss, golden handcuffs, so to speak. Physician jobs that require golden handcuffs for retention are a big red flag.
^^This

Those more familiar with the business/engineering world-who keep asking why he can’t just leave before November-frankly don’t know what you are talking about.
The original post only said that he worked for a “large, regional corporation,” so you might want to take some of the blame for people not understanding (in your view) the context.

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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomerJ » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:00 pm

coalcracker wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:34 am
Archimedes wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 pm
The three month notice period prior to departure is standard in many physician employment contracts. If you just up and quit without adequate notice, you could potentially be reported to the state medical board for patient abandonment and have a negative action taken against your medical license.

And on a practical level, you cannot start with a new employer until you have been credentialed, a process that takes 60-90 days. There are many regulatory hoops to jump through for physicians. It is not at all like a typical job.

Finally, many physician contracts have signing bonuses that are actually structured as a retention bonus in the form of a loan that is forgiven at a future date. If you leave before the date of the loan forgiveness, you owe the money back. You would have signed the loan document with a promise to pay until forgiven. These clauses are structured that way because the loss of money that you have already received is way more painful to give back than a future bonus not yet received. These contracts play on human aversion to loss, golden handcuffs, so to speak. Physician jobs that require golden handcuffs for retention are a big red flag.
^^This

Those more familiar with the business/engineering world-who keep asking why he can’t just leave before November-frankly don’t know what you are talking about.
I'm amazed that the AUTHOR of this thread responded this way.

Sure, you may be spot on that we don't know what we're talking about... But YOU are the one who didn't divulge in the original post that he was a doctor. All you said was that "He works for a subsidiary of a large regional corporation (20,000+ employees)"

If you ask for advice and don't give enough details, you shouldn't rail on people for giving poor advice. We're just trying to HELP you.

I do appreciate Archimedes explaining WHY doctors have to stay for an extra 3 months... Very interesting.
Last edited by HomerJ on Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethics of "bonus payback" when quitting a job

Post by HomerJ » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:03 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:25 pm
And the correct course of action when you don't have enough information to draw a conclusion is not to draw a conclusion, not knowingly draw a poor conclusion anyway.
You quit my company once after a short period of time costing me time and money. That's enough information.

If your boyfriend/girlfriend cheats on you once, do you take him/her back without reservation because you don't have enough information to draw a conclusion?

I just took my jetski to be serviced at a marina nearby... It started smoking when I got it home, and it turns out a thread from a changed spark plug broke off and got into the cylinder, and I'm looking at thousands of dollars to repair/replace the engine.

Am I allowed to draw a conclusion about that marina's service department? Or should I take my boat there next week because I don't have enough information to draw a conclusion?
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