Long-Term Care Decision

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:11 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:59 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.
"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I see little to be gained in injecting pure emotion into what can and should be a rational decision.
Wanting to make sure your wife still has your retirement savings intact is "injecting pure emotion"?
It seems pretty logical to me to want to protect my retirement savings for my wife.

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:01 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:11 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:59 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.
"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I see little to be gained in injecting pure emotion into what can and should be a rational decision.
Wanting to make sure your wife still has your retirement savings intact is "injecting pure emotion"?
It seems pretty logical to me to want to protect my retirement savings for my wife.
Apart from a bequest motive, retirement savings are not meant to be protected. They are intended to be used. Again, the likelihood of one spouse spending $1.2 million is remote. Yes, it happens, but so do a great many other rare events that we do not attempt to insure against. There are many other events that are far more likely to wipe out a $1.2 million nest egg than LTC. And in the instance we were referring to, the surviving spouse would still likely have about the U.S. median household income even in that instance, which doesn't strike me as a terrible 'worst case' scenario.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
-Upton Sinclair
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

TN_Boy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:09 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
Not a useful post.

If you need many years of LTC, then sure, you'll have wished you bought LTC insurance that covered a very long stay, though that is very expensive insurance. If only we could predict the future.

But such a scenario is unlikely, no matter what scare tactics a salesperson might use. And there is real money going out the door to pay for the LTC insurance.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:15 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:01 pm


“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
-Upton Sinclair

There are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me and they don't sell long-term care insurance.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:30 pm

TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:09 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
Not a useful post.

If you need many years of LTC, then sure, you'll have wished you bought LTC insurance that covered a very long stay, though that is very expensive insurance. If only we could predict the future.

But such a scenario is unlikely, no matter what scare tactics a salesperson might use. And there is real money going out the door to pay for the LTC insurance.

I had a close relative who told me over Thanksgiving dinner one year, "Oh, I don't need that insurance. I'll never go into a nursing home." 18 months later he came home from work to eat lunch and he had a massive stroke while eating his roast beef sandwich. He was completely paralyzed on his left hand side. His wife went through their entire life's savings over the next 6 years paying for home health aides. An aide cared for him from 8am to 8pm, seven days a week. I was the "night time aide". I got him into bed at night, gave him his medication, and changed his diaper, all while trying to keep my day job as a young insurance agent.

His decision to not own long-term care insurance did NOT affect him. His care would have been the same whether it was paid for with cash or by an insurance policy. His decision to not own long-term care insurance affected his wife, his daughter, his son-in-law (me), and his grandson. It ended up destroying my marriage.

The reason for owning long-term care insurance is to prevent your loved ones from having to deal with these kinds of consequences. It's not scare tactics when it's real. Just go to any caregiving website and read some of the stories of real families having to deal with the stresses of caregiving.

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oldcomputerguy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by oldcomputerguy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:19 am

This topic is now in the Personal Finance forum (insurance). -- Moderator oldcomputerguy
"I’ve come around to this: If you’re dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you’re smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you." (Aaron Sorkin)

TN_Boy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:00 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:30 pm
TN_Boy wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:09 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
Not a useful post.

If you need many years of LTC, then sure, you'll have wished you bought LTC insurance that covered a very long stay, though that is very expensive insurance. If only we could predict the future.

But such a scenario is unlikely, no matter what scare tactics a salesperson might use. And there is real money going out the door to pay for the LTC insurance.

I had a close relative who told me over Thanksgiving dinner one year, "Oh, I don't need that insurance. I'll never go into a nursing home." 18 months later he came home from work to eat lunch and he had a massive stroke while eating his roast beef sandwich. He was completely paralyzed on his left hand side. His wife went through their entire life's savings over the next 6 years paying for home health aides. An aide cared for him from 8am to 8pm, seven days a week. I was the "night time aide". I got him into bed at night, gave him his medication, and changed his diaper, all while trying to keep my day job as a young insurance agent.

His decision to not own long-term care insurance did NOT affect him. His care would have been the same whether it was paid for with cash or by an insurance policy. His decision to not own long-term care insurance affected his wife, his daughter, his son-in-law (me), and his grandson. It ended up destroying my marriage.

The reason for owning long-term care insurance is to prevent your loved ones from having to deal with these kinds of consequences. It's not scare tactics when it's real. Just go to any caregiving website and read some of the stories of real families having to deal with the stresses of caregiving.
Sigh. I don't like to provide too much personal information, even in an anonymous forum, but I will say this;

1) Both my parents are either in, or have been in, LTC communities.
2) Both my parents have/had LTC policies. And for the record, I have no issues with the insurance company thus far.
3) I've been largely managing the family finances for some time (I.e. I know the numbers on LTC cost, LTC insurance cost, etc)
4) Because of 3), I obviously know the impact of LTC on the overall financial situation.
5) I'm physically in a LTC facility 1 to 3 times a week. (And I've been in a lot of such facilities).
6) I'm generally familiar with my parent's friends experience (or not) with LTC, and know what my friends are doing about the problem.

I.e. been there, done that, doing that. I don't have to go to a website to learn about caregiving.

Stop misrepresenting why people don't believe LTC insurance is always the right solution. It is not because we haven't thought through the problem or because we are too shortsighted to worry about the spouse. The skepticism is based on analyzing likely outcomes and the cost of LTC care insurance versus family resources.

I have no objection to someone making the case for LTC insurance. The problem is when people (like you) stop talking about it rationally and go into sales mode, emphasizing the effects of a worst case scenario.

Yes, if you or your spouse needs 10 years in a nursing home, you would have been better off buying (expensive) LTC insurance. But such a scenario is quite rare, and you know that.

I think some of your posts are actually helpful, but the dramatic sales pitches don't do much for me; standard sales/marketing tactic - get them to "feel" not think.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:00 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:01 pm
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
-Upton Sinclair
There are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me and they don't sell long-term care insurance.
And of those, some did a rational examination, and some were swayed by your (or someone similar’s) lobbying. They don’t sell LTCi, but they were sold LTCi. :D

I find it interesting that this site makes such a distinction between lobbying for the industry (apparently okay) and solicitation (not okay).
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

smitcat
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by smitcat » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:06 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:00 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:01 pm
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
-Upton Sinclair
There are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me and they don't sell long-term care insurance.
And of those, some did a rational examination, and some were swayed by your (or someone similar’s) lobbying. They don’t sell LTCi, but they were sold LTCi. :D

I find it interesting that this site makes such a distinction between lobbying for the industry (apparently okay) and solicitation (not okay).
I find Wow"s data and answers very helpful - and I can see how many others on this forum "lobby' for their own thoughts and ideas quite regularly.
In each case it is prudent to verify the responses but the data and insight from all is welcome.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:19 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:06 am
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:00 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:15 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:01 pm
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
-Upton Sinclair
There are a lot of people on this forum who agree with me and they don't sell long-term care insurance.
And of those, some did a rational examination, and some were swayed by your (or someone similar’s) lobbying. They don’t sell LTCi, but they were sold LTCi. :D
I find it interesting that this site makes such a distinction between lobbying for the industry (apparently okay) and solicitation (not okay).
I find Wow"s data and answers very helpful - and I can see how many others on this forum "lobby' for their own thoughts and ideas quite regularly.
In each case it is prudent to verify the responses but the data and insight from all is welcome.
Of course we all lobby for our own thoughts and ideas. However, most of us have more than one idea we are presenting. I might get tired, for example, of DanMahowny ripping on Tesla, but he’s not a one trick pony, so I am more open to his shtick :D . And, even if Dan shorts Tesla, I don’t have the sense that it’s his primary source of revenue. Dan is an extreme form of one sided posting, but he’s more even handed than Wow (eg, he hates the company but likes the car).

I’m glad you find Wow’s data useful. As they say, that’s what makes horse races.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

Silk McCue
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Silk McCue » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:31 am

smitcat wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:06 am
I find Wow"s data and answers very helpful - and I can see how many others on this forum "lobby' for their own thoughts and ideas quite regularly.
In each case it is prudent to verify the responses but the data and insight from all is welcome.
+1

I to am thankful for WoW2012's willingness to keep coming back with their perspective. There are plenty of voices here that vehemently oppose LTCi and that are living in the past regarding policies.

As the former owner of a Private Duty Home Health Agency taking care of the elderly in their homes I have seen the difference in the lives of individuals and their family members when they had any level of coverage. I have also seen the look in their eyes of others when after sitting down to discuss the services we provided and the cost to do so when they could not afford it and we could not help them.

Do as you wish - but don't shoot the messenger.

Cheers

TN_Boy
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TN_Boy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:43 am

Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:31 am
smitcat wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:06 am
I find Wow"s data and answers very helpful - and I can see how many others on this forum "lobby' for their own thoughts and ideas quite regularly.
In each case it is prudent to verify the responses but the data and insight from all is welcome.
+1

I to am thankful for WoW2012's willingness to keep coming back with their perspective. There are plenty of voices here that vehemently oppose LTCi and that are living in the past regarding policies.

As the former owner of a Private Duty Home Health Agency taking care of the elderly in their homes I have seen the difference in the lives of individuals and their family members when they had any level of coverage. I have also seen the look in their eyes of others when after sitting down to discuss the services we provided and the cost to do so when they could not afford it and we could not help them.

Do as you wish - but don't shoot the messenger.

Cheers
Okay, so I have to make one more comment on what I fear is a degenerating thread.

I am happy for WoW2012 to post their perspective and even agree that some posts have been good and useful.

The point I have been trying to make is that Wow's last couple of posts are nothing but scare sales tactics 101 -- no data, just appeals to emotion and anecdotal stories.

Cracks like "Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."

And

"I had a close relative who told me over Thanksgiving dinner one year, 'Oh, I don't need that insurance. I'll never go into a nursing home.' followed by a sad personal story and the strong implication that people who don't buy LTC are not thinking about their spouse ....

VERY obvious salesmanship, not data. I'm happy with data.

markcoop
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by markcoop » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I'd be curious to hear from someone in the industry at what point you feel someone can self-insure. Is there a dollar amount where you feel LTCi is not worth it? Any insight would be appreciated.
Mark

ChrisC
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ChrisC » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:31 am

markcoop wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I'd be curious to hear from someone in the industry at what point you feel someone can self-insure. Is there a dollar amount where you feel LTCi is not worth it? Any insight would be appreciated.
I actually think that many here treat this issue of LTCi as binary; if you can afford to “self-insure” or assume the entire financial risk of LTC then it’s not advisable to obtain LTCi. And on the other hand if you can’t self-insure but have some funds to obtain LTCi, then it’s advisable to go out and get LTCi. In my view, this is a false dichotomy.

Several here can self insure but nonetheless have LTCi because it made financial sense to them, given the particular policy they purchased, and perception of family dynamics at issue with LTC. In all cases, I think there isn’t a one size fits all paradigm on whether one should or should not obtain LTCi. And for many who can’t self insure obtaining LTCI could be an unwise deal for them, given particular policy features and family dynamics and the Medicaid default might make better sense.

These threads about the wisdom of LTCi are like the threads debating taking SS before 70; there’s no “correct” answer for everyone. And proponents of one answer typically lobby for the correctness of the answer they have chosen for themselves, in the marketplace of ideas.

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beyou
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by beyou » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:54 pm

RetiredAL wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:54 pm
JPM wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:50 pm
As the Kansas doctor wrote, getting the insurer to pay legitimate claims can be challenging and it helps to have an attorney or to be able and willing to play hardball with the insurer. In health lines, insurers put a lot of effort into dodging payment of claims and will use creative dodges to get the insured to pay charges that the insurer has agreed to pay. Dodging payment in these lines is a game played for money by insurers.



My experience with my Dad this year with his LTC Insurance. To date, I've had no problems with Genworth. First with in-home care, including equipment purchases and repairs. Now that he is in assisted living, they contacted me this last Thurs saying that everything had been approved, but I have not yet seen the statement.

So far, I've found Genworth easy to work with. Much better than what I had expected before I started the process.
Same here, MIL getting $ from Genworth now for in home care, no problems.
That said, I don't like long term relationships with the insurance industry.
You pay now based on how they will service you later...later things can change, and often do.

JGoneRiding
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by JGoneRiding » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:01 pm

My issue with that policy is it doesn't last long enough. Can you buy a higher limit?

My gma is moving onto Medicaid. She has spent in excess of 500k for her NH care to date. She is 99. All that type of policy would have done for her is maybe have saved some money for heirs, but it still would have run out early. I dont think 3 years of coverage is enough. If I was going to buy ltci I would want at least 5 years. Especially since it is a combined policy making it highly likely one of you will use it.

kaudrey
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by kaudrey » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:55 pm

My mother has dementia and we just moved her to a nursing home about a month ago. It costs $11K a month. Are you OK with a big gap in how much you are potentially covering?

And while it is true that most people don't need a nursing home for long periods, my mother's mother was in one for 14 years, also with dementia. I hope that doesn't happen to my mother, but who knows?

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:37 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:01 pm
My issue with that policy is it doesn't last long enough. Can you buy a higher limit?

My gma is moving onto Medicaid. She has spent in excess of 500k for her NH care to date. She is 99. All that type of policy would have done for her is maybe have saved some money for heirs, but it still would have run out early. I dont think 3 years of coverage is enough. If I was going to buy ltci I would want at least 5 years. Especially since it is a combined policy making it highly likely one of you will use it.
If she'd had a long-term care partnership policy with $500K in benefits, after the policy ran out of benefits she could choose to go on Medicaid and Medicaid would let her keep $500K in countable assets (not the usual $3K they normally allow.)

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:48 pm

kaudrey wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:55 pm
My mother has dementia and we just moved her to a nursing home about a month ago. It costs $11K a month. Are you OK with a big gap in how much you are potentially covering?

And while it is true that most people don't need a nursing home for long periods, my mother's mother was in one for 14 years, also with dementia. I hope that doesn't happen to my mother, but who knows?
There are unlimited policies available for sale today. There are also long-term care partnership policies which will protect $1 of your assets from Medicaid for every $1 the policy pays in benefits.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:22 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:48 pm
kaudrey wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:55 pm
My mother has dementia and we just moved her to a nursing home about a month ago. It costs $11K a month. Are you OK with a big gap in how much you are potentially covering?

And while it is true that most people don't need a nursing home for long periods, my mother's mother was in one for 14 years, also with dementia. I hope that doesn't happen to my mother, but who knows?
There are unlimited policies available for sale today. There are also long-term care partnership policies which will protect $1 of your assets from Medicaid for every $1 the policy pays in benefits.
Can you list the states that allow this type of partner LTC/Medicaid plan?
Thank you.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:31 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:22 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:48 pm
kaudrey wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:55 pm
My mother has dementia and we just moved her to a nursing home about a month ago. It costs $11K a month. Are you OK with a big gap in how much you are potentially covering?

And while it is true that most people don't need a nursing home for long periods, my mother's mother was in one for 14 years, also with dementia. I hope that doesn't happen to my mother, but who knows?
There are unlimited policies available for sale today. There are also long-term care partnership policies which will protect $1 of your assets from Medicaid for every $1 the policy pays in benefits.
Can you list the states that allow this type of partner LTC/Medicaid plan?
Thank you.

RM

Every state except for Vermont, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Alaska, and Hawaii
Although the plans available in CT, NY, and CA are not very good right now.

GreenGrowTheDollars
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by GreenGrowTheDollars » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:42 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
That was precisely what I thought. Whoever dies first potentially uses up a tremendous percentage of the resources and possibly gets higher quality nicer care. The "trailing" spouse gets stuck with whatever's left...and possibly much less nice surroundings as a Medicaid patient.

(I don't sell insurance. My MIL did benefit from a CALPERS LTC policy for many years. My FIL didn't have LTC insurance (couldn't qualify) and they spent a tremendous amount keeping him living at home and then private pay in a nursing home.)

ChrisC
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ChrisC » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am

GreenGrowTheDollars wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:42 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
That was precisely what I thought. Whoever dies first potentially uses up a tremendous percentage of the resources and possibly gets higher quality nicer care. The "trailing" spouse gets stuck with whatever's left...and possibly much less nice surroundings as a Medicaid patient.

(I don't sell insurance. My MIL did benefit from a CALPERS LTC policy for many years. My FIL didn't have LTC insurance (couldn't qualify) and they spent a tremendous amount keeping him living at home and then private pay in a nursing home.)
One of the reasons we went with LTCi was that we didn't want the surviving spouse or other family members to be scrambling around (or muddling through finances for caregiving) for LTC. It's the same factor that's motivating us to seriously consider CCRCs (and we're on the long wait list for one now). We've had to scramble around three times in the past 11 years for my mother, mother-in-law, and brother-in-law to finance their long term care and assisted living -- it's not an easy task for someone primarily clueless about personal finance, which could be the case for a suriving spouse or family members. And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts. Just seemed to me that LTCi provides the benefit of "one stop shopping" for financing LTC.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:39 am

ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
GreenGrowTheDollars wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:42 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
That was precisely what I thought. Whoever dies first potentially uses up a tremendous percentage of the resources and possibly gets higher quality nicer care. The "trailing" spouse gets stuck with whatever's left...and possibly much less nice surroundings as a Medicaid patient.

(I don't sell insurance. My MIL did benefit from a CALPERS LTC policy for many years. My FIL didn't have LTC insurance (couldn't qualify) and they spent a tremendous amount keeping him living at home and then private pay in a nursing home.)
One of the reasons we went with LTCi was that we didn't want the surviving spouse or other family members to be scrambling around (or muddling through finances for caregiving) for LTC. It's the same factor that's motivating us to seriously consider CCRCs (and we're on the long wait list for one now). We've had to scramble around three times in the past 11 years for my mother, mother-in-law, and brother-in-law to finance their long term care and assisted living -- it's not an easy task for someone primarily clueless about personal finance, which could be the case for a suriving spouse or family members. And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts. Just seemed to me that LTCi provides the benefit of "one stop shopping" for financing LTC.

Stop being so emotional, Chris!

:wink:

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:25 am

ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts.
An accountant would be far cheaper than LTCi for that purpose.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:29 am

markcoop wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I'd be curious to hear from someone in the industry at what point you feel someone can self-insure. Is there a dollar amount where you feel LTCi is not worth it? Any insight would be appreciated.
You might be waiting a while for that answer.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:29 am
markcoop wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I'd be curious to hear from someone in the industry at what point you feel someone can self-insure. Is there a dollar amount where you feel LTCi is not worth it? Any insight would be appreciated.
You might be waiting a while for that answer.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

If you're net worth is $10 million, and you pay cash for a vehicle that is worth $100,000, are you going to buy collision insurance on the car?

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willthrill81
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:43 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:29 am
markcoop wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Also, the likelihood of one spouse blowing through the entire $1.2 million on LTC is extremely low.

"Sweetheart, we don't need long-term care insurance. If you spend most of our retirement savings paying for my care, you'll still have whatever's left over. You'll muddle through somehow after I'm gone."
I'd be curious to hear from someone in the industry at what point you feel someone can self-insure. Is there a dollar amount where you feel LTCi is not worth it? Any insight would be appreciated.
You might be waiting a while for that answer.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
If you're net worth is $10 million, and you pay cash for a vehicle that is worth $100,000, are you going to buy collision insurance on the car?
That doesn't answer markcoop's question.

I'l answer your question with a question. Would you recommend that people buy insurance on their cell phone?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:52 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:43 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am


If you're net worth is $10 million, and you pay cash for a vehicle that is worth $100,000, are you going to buy collision insurance on the car?
That doesn't answer markcoop's question.

I'l answer your question with a question. Would you recommend that people buy insurance on their cell phone?


If you knew how many times I drop my cell phone, you wouldn't ask that question.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:56 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:52 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:43 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am


If you're net worth is $10 million, and you pay cash for a vehicle that is worth $100,000, are you going to buy collision insurance on the car?
That doesn't answer markcoop's question.

I'l answer your question with a question. Would you recommend that people buy insurance on their cell phone?
If you knew how many times I drop my cell phone, you wouldn't ask that question.
So your answer is that we should insure all the risks for which we can buy insurance?
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

TravelforFun
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TravelforFun » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:02 am

I see people commenting, 'invest the LTC premium, you'd come out ahead...' Folks, insurance and investment are two different things. Most of us would come out ahead had we not bought home, life, automobile, or medical insurance.

Regarding LTC, why would we buy insurance to protect against our $300K home loss and hesitate to buy insurance to protect against our $300K LTC cost when the chance of us needing LTC is higher than the chance of us losing our entire home?

Everyone's situation is different and hence, there is no right or wrong on whether one should get LTC insurance or not.

TravelforFun

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:12 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:56 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:52 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:43 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am


If you're net worth is $10 million, and you pay cash for a vehicle that is worth $100,000, are you going to buy collision insurance on the car?
That doesn't answer markcoop's question.

I'l answer your question with a question. Would you recommend that people buy insurance on their cell phone?
If you knew how many times I drop my cell phone, you wouldn't ask that question.
So your answer is that we should insure all the risks for which we can buy insurance?

I did not say that at all. As I've said in previous posts, at least 50% of retirees should NOT own long-term care insurance. They don't need it because they can easily qualify for Medicaid.

Do decamillionaires insure their cars? It's a simple question.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by smitcat » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:25 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:56 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:52 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:43 am
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am


If you're net worth is $10 million, and you pay cash for a vehicle that is worth $100,000, are you going to buy collision insurance on the car?
That doesn't answer markcoop's question.

I'l answer your question with a question. Would you recommend that people buy insurance on their cell phone?
If you knew how many times I drop my cell phone, you wouldn't ask that question.
So your answer is that we should insure all the risks for which we can buy insurance?
You should asses which insurances and rates suit your personal situation.
My daughter has insurance on her cell phone - a good call on her part.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ChrisC » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:36 am

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:25 am
ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts.
An accountant would be far cheaper than LTCi for that purpose.
It’s not the money that moves me. Having done it myself thrice, it’s a PITA compounded by life management and life care issues that my accountant is ill-equipped to handle for my family.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:12 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:12 am
Do decamillionaires insure their cars? It's a simple question.
Uh, yeah, because our umbrella policies require it.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 pm

ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
One of the reasons we went with LTCi was that we didn't want the surviving spouse or other family members to be scrambling around (or muddling through finances for caregiving) for LTC. It's the same factor that's motivating us to seriously consider CCRCs (and we're on the long wait list for one now). We've had to scramble around three times in the past 11 years for my mother, mother-in-law, and brother-in-law to finance their long term care and assisted living -- it's not an easy task for someone primarily clueless about personal finance, which could be the case for a suriving spouse or family members. And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts. Just seemed to me that LTCi provides the benefit of "one stop shopping" for financing LTC.
As someone who has fought with insurance companies on coverage issues, I find it much tougher than figuring out which account to pay my medical bills from. If you're "primarily clueless about personal finance," good luck getting reimbursed.

I'm glad that you think it works for you and your family. I hope you are right.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

shell921
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by shell921 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Of course there is no predicting if or when you might need long term care but there was a discussion I believe on here about
the actual percentages of people who need long term care and for how long.

Found this on-line :
"The average length of time spent in long-term care is two years (2.5 years for women and 1.5 years for men). Only 14 percent of people need long-term care for five years or more. As the US population ages, the number of people needing long-term care is on the rise."

and this:
"The average stay in a nursing home is 835 days, according to the National Care Planning Council. (For residents who have been discharged, which includes many who have received short-term rehab care, the average stay in a nursing home is 270 days.)"

My mother and my aunt both died in nursing homes. My mother died 6 days after being admitted.
She suffered from a brain tumor and was 75.
My aunt had lymphoma and was 81. May aunt was 2 weeks in her nursing home before she died. My mother in law had
a stroke and was in a nursing home slightly over 2 years. She was 78.
My uncle died at home-full time nursing care for 8 days before he passed at age 75.
My husband died at home 6 days after being in the hospital 39 days. He was 75.
I had hospice and my brother and sister-in-law helping me take care of him.

A close friend and neighbor died in an assisted living facility about a year after entering. She was 76.

None of these people had LTC insurance.

I am a widow and if need LTC [ long term care] I can pay for it-if I sell or rent my home.
So I have no LTC insurance. I would hate to have to go into a nursing home...
or even assisted living....... I think I'd rather be dead.

I think there should be a law that would allow every adult 60 or older to end their life in a calm and safe and peaceful setting.

My 2nd cousin-age 63- has a terminal illness and she has had LTC insurance for decades.
Let's see if her LTC insurance will help her...she is going to need it. l

TravelforFun
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TravelforFun » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:06 pm

shell921 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:26 pm
I think there should be a law that would allow every adult 60 or older to end their life in a calm and safe and peaceful setting.
Seven states and Washington, D.C., have death with dignity statutes. We say we would go peacefully but whether we can go through with that when the time comes is a different story.

My feeble father-in-law is in his 90s, has been in a nursing home supported by Medicaid for close to three years and getting weaker as time goes on. It's too late now for him to select the death-with-dignity option because he is no longer in sound mind.

TravelforFun

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by ChrisC » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:27 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 pm
ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
One of the reasons we went with LTCi was that we didn't want the surviving spouse or other family members to be scrambling around (or muddling through finances for caregiving) for LTC. It's the same factor that's motivating us to seriously consider CCRCs (and we're on the long wait list for one now). We've had to scramble around three times in the past 11 years for my mother, mother-in-law, and brother-in-law to finance their long term care and assisted living -- it's not an easy task for someone primarily clueless about personal finance, which could be the case for a suriving spouse or family members. And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts. Just seemed to me that LTCi provides the benefit of "one stop shopping" for financing LTC.
As someone who has fought with insurance companies on coverage issues, I find it much tougher than figuring out which account to pay my medical bills from. If you're "primarily clueless about personal finance," good luck getting reimbursed.

I'm glad that you think it works for you and your family. I hope you are right.
I’m not primarily clueless, but my wife and children are not interested in personal finance though among them are two lawyers, one retirement marketing specialist with a mega financial institution, and a cyber security specialist in a silicon valley upstart (with an MBA). One thing, however, I’m sure about is that they are tenacious advocates for handling insurance claims — so no worries there.

Yes, this works for me. And I have belts and suspenders up the wazoo from aging in place home (with easy in place home care) to now being on the wait list for a CCRC. LTCi adds to my comfort and that’s all that matters to me. Whatever, you do, I likewise hopes it works for you too.
Last edited by ChrisC on Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:30 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:12 am
Do decamillionaires insure their cars? It's a simple question.
Uh, yeah, because our umbrella policies require it.
Umbrella policies do not require collision insurance. Do you know what I mean by collusion insurance?

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:30 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:12 am
Do decamillionaires insure their cars? It's a simple question.
Uh, yeah, because our umbrella policies require it.
Umbrella policies do not require collision insurance. Do you know what I mean by collusion insurance?
I assume you meant collision not collusion. I guess umbrella covers you regardless of whether you have collision or not, but whatever, you still haven’t answered “at what NW level one can self insure?” Simple question. You divert as much as another famous ... never mind. Just answer the question please.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:50 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:30 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:12 am
Do decamillionaires insure their cars? It's a simple question.
Uh, yeah, because our umbrella policies require it.
Umbrella policies do not require collision insurance. Do you know what I mean by collusion insurance?
I assume you meant collision not collusion. I guess umbrella covers you regardless of whether you have collision or not, but whatever, you still haven’t answered “at what NW level one can self insure?” Simple question. You divert as much as another famous ... never mind. Just answer the question please.
Decamillionaires insure their $100,000 car even though they can buy 100 similar new cars tomorrow.
Decamillionaires own long-term care insurance for the same reason when the benefits-to-premium comparison is a good value.
I never said that everyone should own long-term care insurance. I tell consumers every day to NOT buy long-term care insurance. It all depends upon how much value they can get based upon their current age and health.

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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:57 pm

shell921 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:26 pm

Found this on-line :
"The average length of time spent in long-term care is two years (2.5 years for women and 1.5 years for men). Only 14 percent of people need long-term care for five years or more. As the US population ages, the number of people needing long-term care is on the rise."

and this:
"The average stay in a nursing home is 835 days, according to the National Care Planning Council. (For residents who have been discharged, which includes many who have received short-term rehab care, the average stay in a nursing home is 270 days.)"


I am a widow and if need LTC [ long term care] I can pay for it-if I sell or rent my home.
So I have no LTC insurance. I would hate to have to go into a nursing home...
or even assisted living....... I think I'd rather be dead.

I think there should be a law that would allow every adult 60 or older to end their life in a calm and safe and peaceful setting.

My 2nd cousin-age 63- has a terminal illness and she has had LTC insurance for decades.
Let's see if her LTC insurance will help her...she is going to need it. l

Nursing home statistics are not very helpful because only 13% of the people who need long-term care are in nursing homes. 80% of the people who need long-term care are AT HOME.

It's less important for a single widow (or widower) to own long-term care insurance than it is for a couple to own long-term care insurance.

There are assisted-suicide laws in many states. However, in order to obtain the lethal medication you have to be diagnosed as terminally ill with less than 6 months to live AND be of sound mind.

People who need long-term care are NOT terminally ill.
Long-term care is NOT end-of-life care.
Long-term care is far-from-end-of-life care.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:04 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 pm
ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
One of the reasons we went with LTCi was that we didn't want the surviving spouse or other family members to be scrambling around (or muddling through finances for caregiving) for LTC. It's the same factor that's motivating us to seriously consider CCRCs (and we're on the long wait list for one now). We've had to scramble around three times in the past 11 years for my mother, mother-in-law, and brother-in-law to finance their long term care and assisted living -- it's not an easy task for someone primarily clueless about personal finance, which could be the case for a suriving spouse or family members. And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts. Just seemed to me that LTCi provides the benefit of "one stop shopping" for financing LTC.
As someone who has fought with insurance companies on coverage issues, I find it much tougher than figuring out which account to pay my medical bills from. If you're "primarily clueless about personal finance," good luck getting reimbursed.

I'm glad that you think it works for you and your family. I hope you are right.

It was soooooooooooo hard to get my mother-in-law's long-term care insurance claim approved.
We gave her LTCi policy to the manager of the home care agency.
She signed two HIPAA forms.
3 weeks later we get a letter from the insurance company saying the claim was approved.
It was sooooooooooo hard!

Now, every month my wife has to send proof to the insurance company.
It is soooooooooooo hard.
She gets the monthly statement from her mother's assisted-living facility.
She scans it.
She emails it to the insurance company.
7 days later the insurance company deposits the money into her mother's checking account.
It takes at least 5 minutes EVERY month.
It is sooooooooooooo hard.

rgs
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by rgs » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:41 pm

Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.
I went thru a similar exercise recently and I will give you my views based on what I found. In no particular order
  • folks tend to be a bit emotional around this topic and this isn't always helpful
  • this is very much a personal decision, especially type of policy to get
  • what I found is there are always trade offs, and you have to assess what best suits you
  • self insurance sounds appealing, but 10 or 20 years from now, you might not want (or in a position) to be taking these decisions (again my view)
  • I didn't like that the stand alone policies can (and do) potentially raise the premiums
Even though there is an upfront cost, I am leaning toward the single premium hybrid option (the premiums are guaranteed in this case) with an inflation provision. Some might point to the "opportunity cost" of plunking down a chunk of change. Like I said, there will be trade offs and you have to decide which one of these work best for you.

My suggestion is, do your own research and while everyone here means well, ultimately only you're fully aware of your situation and can best decide. Get quotes for the different options/companies


Good luck!
Last edited by rgs on Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rgs
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by rgs » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:43 pm

<deleted>
Last edited by rgs on Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

neilpilot
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by neilpilot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:47 pm

rgs wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:43 pm
"you might want to be taking these decisions (again my view)", that should read you might NOT want (or in a position)to be taking these decisions
Suggest you edit the offending post, and maybe also delete this one.

WoW2012
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by WoW2012 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:59 am

rgs wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:41 pm
Colormeado wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:40 am
My wife and I are looking to purchase Long-Term Care insurance and would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think this policy is a good choice. At this point, we don’t think that we have enough to self-insure. Thanks for any advice. Here are some details:

Shared Benefits. $360,000 Policy Maximum (one spouse may use up to $300,000).
Covers nursing home, assisted living and home health up to $5,000 Monthly Maximum.
3% compound inflation on policy maximum and monthly maximum for 20 years.
Premiums waived for spouse on claim. If one spouse dies, their premium ends.
Cost: = Him (age 60) = $1,519; Her (age 57) = $2,064; Total $3,584.
Company: Mutual of Omaha.
Net worth about $1 million (which are mostly in retirement accounts and house worth $150,000).
Combined Expected pensions at retirement in 4 or 5 years: $70,000. If one spouse dies, it will go back to $45,000 for the surviving spouse. COLAs only around 1.5%.
I went thru a similar exercise recently and I will give you my views based on what I found. In no particular order
  • folks tend to be a bit emotional around this topic and this isn't always helpful
  • this is very much a personal decision, especially type of policy to get
  • what I found is there are always trade offs, and you have to assess what best suits you
  • self insurance sounds appealing, but 10 or 20 years from now, you might not want (or in a position) to be taking these decisions (again my view)
  • I didn't like that the stand alone policies can (and do) potentially raise the premiums
Even though there is an upfront cost, I am leaning toward the single premium hybrid option (the premiums are guaranteed in this case) with an inflation provision. Some might point to the "opportunity cost" of plunking down a chunk of change. Like I said, there will be trade offs and you have to decide which one of these work best for you.

My suggestion is, do your own research and while everyone here means well, ultimately only you're fully aware of your situation and can best decide. Get quotes for the different options/companies


Good luck!

As I see it, the problem with the single-premium products is the opportunity cost. If you're healthy enough to qualify for a traditional LTCi policy, you'd probably be better off investing the single-premium and using the return on that investment to pay the annual premium on a traditional LTCi policy. LTCi policies purchased today will not have the huge price hikes the older policies did, especially if you live in one of the 41 states that has enacted the Rate Stability Regulation.

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Artful Dodger
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Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by Artful Dodger » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:52 pm

ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:36 am
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:25 am
ChrisC wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
And even if you can "self-insure," I didn't want my wife or children scrambling around to figure out which income streams to tap or to balance tax management issues with draw downs from retirement accounts.
An accountant would be far cheaper than LTCi for that purpose.
It’s not the money that moves me. Having done it myself thrice, it’s a PITA compounded by life management and life care issues that my accountant is ill-equipped to handle for my family.
I'll echo what a number of other posters have said.

At least for the two claims I've been involved, there was zero pushback by the insurance company on the claims. Though both involved cognitive impairment.

In both cases, the care provider worked with the insurance company to get the claims approved and filed everything for us. In my mom's case, this went on for almost four years.

I can't imagine what it would be like as a spouse or child to have to self administer this type of plan.

Sometimes making emotional laden comments bring light to an issue. Not everything can be reduced to a spreadsheet.

If you self insure, you're putting your spouse and heirs in charge of deciding what level of care you should receive versus your spouses future standard of living and your heirs inheritance. I do agree at some point it's financially feasible to self insure, and you can certainly outsource some of the administration, but at that net worth, your premiums are a tiny percentage of NW or annual income, and easily affordable.

I remember when my father was terminally ill, and we knew my mom would have to go into a nursing home due to her Alzheimer's. He was glad that he would be able to leave my brother and I something, and the LTC insurance would be there to pay most of mom's bills. My brother and I made good use of that inheritance; most of mine went toward kid's college. While we wouldn't have totally depleted mom's assets, the LTC protected about 2/3 of the estate. I was very appreciative I did not have to think about the expenses for my mother's care or worry my future expenses would be affected if there was no inheritance.

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willthrill81
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Location: USA

Re: Long-Term Care Decision

Post by willthrill81 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:50 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:36 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:30 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:12 am
Do decamillionaires insure their cars? It's a simple question.
Uh, yeah, because our umbrella policies require it.
Umbrella policies do not require collision insurance. Do you know what I mean by collusion insurance?
I assume you meant collision not collusion. I guess umbrella covers you regardless of whether you have collision or not, but whatever, you still haven’t answered “at what NW level one can self insure?” Simple question. You divert as much as another famous ... never mind. Just answer the question please.
Decamillionaires insure their $100,000 car even though they can buy 100 similar new cars tomorrow.
Decamillionaires own long-term care insurance for the same reason when the benefits-to-premium comparison is a good value.
I never said that everyone should own long-term care insurance. I tell consumers every day to NOT buy long-term care insurance. It all depends upon how much value they can get based upon their current age and health.
That still doesn't answer the question.

Unless they are able to write off the premiums as a business expense, I've never seen a situation where it was in a decamillionaire's best financial interest to buy LTC insurance. Even if their LTC cost $200k annually, that would be a grand total of 2% of their assets (assuming exactly $10 million net worth). There's zero need for LTC insurance at such a level. And just because some decamillionaires engage in an activity like buying LTC insurance does not make it a wise decision; that's an appeal to wealth.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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