Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

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dm200
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:37 am

Lots of possibilities, IMO.

One possibility is that her performance has actually "slipped" and the evaluation(s) are correct.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by KlingKlang » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am

Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:05 pm
Unfortunately she’s in a small office of a larger corporation.
Been there done that at least twice. Everyone there is probably vulnerable. More than likely some C-level executive who's never even visited the place has taken note of a less profitable office hanging off of the organization chart in an odd location. First step is to increase pressure on local management for cost reductions, after that the entire location gets chopped.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by goingup » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am

I have no doubt your friend, an employee of 30 years, has told you exactly what is going on. Why folks think she is exaggerating the case is baffling.

With the new management and poor corporate financials, along with a mandate to cut heads, it's very likely they are trying to push her out. I suspect the company will have to be somewhat delicate about this.

Maybe she should begin to plan an exit strategy. Make it known that she plans to work to age 65 and see if they counter with a good severance package. She may want to keep working but it is no fun when the company wants you gone. :|

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am

masonstone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:36 am
Can’t you fire someone for no reason in the U.S.? If the employer doesn’t like her they have the power to just let the employee go.
If employment is "at will", generally yes.

However, you cannot fire someone (as far as I know and understand) because of age alone. There are other prohibited reasons for firing someone - such as sex/gender, religion, race, color, national origin.

Seems to me the primary issue or concern would be whether such treatment is based on age alone - and not performance.

Years ago, for example, it was very common that various kinds of employees (such as public school teachers) had to leave at age 65. That is no longer the case - although I suspect most teachers at age 65 are more close to "burnout", etc.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by bluebolt » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:43 am

masonstone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:36 am
Can’t you fire someone for no reason in the U.S.? If the employer doesn’t like her they have the power to just let the employee go.
Typically yes for an at-will employee. However, if your actual reason is discrimination against a protected class, you open yourself up to liability as an employer. That is why there are standard procedures particularly at large companies to make sure there are documented processes.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:44 am

goingup wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am
I have no doubt your friend, an employee of 30 years, has told you exactly what is going on. Why folks think she is exaggerating the case is baffling.
With the new management and poor corporate financials, along with a mandate to cut heads, it's very likely they are trying to push her out. I suspect the company will have to be somewhat delicate about this.
Maybe she should begin to plan an exit strategy. Make it known that she plans to work to age 65 and see if they counter with a good severance package. She may want to keep working but it is no fun when the company wants you gone. :|
It is also possible, objectively, that her performance has been slipping for some time - but the employer did not document it or do anything to help the employee.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by bluebolt » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 am

dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:44 am
goingup wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am
I have no doubt your friend, an employee of 30 years, has told you exactly what is going on. Why folks think she is exaggerating the case is baffling.
With the new management and poor corporate financials, along with a mandate to cut heads, it's very likely they are trying to push her out. I suspect the company will have to be somewhat delicate about this.
Maybe she should begin to plan an exit strategy. Make it known that she plans to work to age 65 and see if they counter with a good severance package. She may want to keep working but it is no fun when the company wants you gone. :|
It is also possible, objectively, that her performance has been slipping for some time - but the employer did not document it or do anything to help the employee.
Or, her performance didn't change, but was acceptable to the old manager, and not to the new manager.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:11 am

bluebolt wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:05 am
dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:44 am
goingup wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am
I have no doubt your friend, an employee of 30 years, has told you exactly what is going on. Why folks think she is exaggerating the case is baffling.
With the new management and poor corporate financials, along with a mandate to cut heads, it's very likely they are trying to push her out. I suspect the company will have to be somewhat delicate about this.
Maybe she should begin to plan an exit strategy. Make it known that she plans to work to age 65 and see if they counter with a good severance package. She may want to keep working but it is no fun when the company wants you gone. :|
It is also possible, objectively, that her performance has been slipping for some time - but the employer did not document it or do anything to help the employee.
Or, her performance didn't change, but was acceptable to the old manager, and not to the new manager.
Yes - that is a real possibility as well. The other, possible, variable is that new or changing job duties may affect her objective "performance".

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Will do good » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:18 am

FIREchief wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:01 am
Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
She’s feeling the stress as they've given her an increasing amount of work where’s she been at the office till 8 or 9 pm finishing up her projects yet they her tell it is not enough.
Are you sure about this? In my decades at Megacorp, I personally observed that near 100% of the reports of people working ridiculous hours were complete BS. On those rare occasions where I myself was there late at night, the parking lots were a ghost town. I guess these super-employees just sold their cars and lived at the place.... :D
As Miamivice had pointed out my comment was less than polite, my apologies. :beer

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:28 am

Will do good wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:18 am
FIREchief wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:01 am
Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
She’s feeling the stress as they've given her an increasing amount of work where’s she been at the office till 8 or 9 pm finishing up her projects yet they her tell it is not enough.
Are you sure about this? In my decades at Megacorp, I personally observed that near 100% of the reports of people working ridiculous hours were complete BS. On those rare occasions where I myself was there late at night, the parking lots were a ghost town. I guess these super-employees just sold their cars and lived at the place.... :D
As Miamivice had pointed out my comment was less than polite, my apologies. :beer
In my younger days being employed at several MegaCorps in the IT field, I had some periods when I did need to work some lengthy hours and those hours were often on weekends and late at night - or during the night. These periods, though, we neither frequent or lengthy.

The two types of situations I dealt with were:

1. The software was failing for an important customer and we needed to do these hours for two reasons: a. get the problem solved and b. show the customer that we were expending lots of resources

2. We were trying to win a contract and the tasks needed to be successful were both large and had a short time deadline.

One example of #1 was a situation where the customer problem escalated very quickly and was very serious. On a Friday, the technical manager responsible had planned a family camping vacation. The car was packed and the family ready to leave. At the middle of the day on Friday, he called his wife and told her that he needed to start working around the clock - and the trip was off. I was part of he team and we worked just about around the clock over the weekend and a few more days to find a fix to the customer problem.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by David Althaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:40 pm

Once an employer determines they no longer want you it's probably time to just suck it up and go. Ego will heal sooner or later (probably sooner) and person can get on with a positive outlook on life. Face it--they probably know the law better and probably have sufficient resources to fight as long as they wish.

All the best

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by cableguy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:45 pm

Tell her she's had a great run. She should be pleasant, negotiate the best severance possible, and start the next phase of her life. Don't leave a long career like that in a hostile way. Not worth it. The reality is 30+ year career runs at the same employer are extremely rare. In their eyes she makes too much money, has too many days off, eats up too much healthcare expense, and she can be replaced at half the cost. Some companies and jobs, even in the government, force you to retire at a certain age.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:49 pm

David Althaus wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:40 pm
Once an employer determines they no longer want you it's probably time to just suck it up and go. Ego will heal sooner or later (probably sooner) and person can get on with a positive outlook on life. Face it--they probably know the law better and probably have sufficient resources to fight as long as they wish.
All the best
Unfortunately for an employee this is probably true.

Look and listen for a favorable severance package.

I think taking a severance package should not affect future employment. Try to characterize the severance as a corporate "downsizing".
Last edited by dm200 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Gnirk » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:49 pm

Another thing to think about is how her leaving or being forced to leave will affect her pension, if she has one. A large aerospace company was famous in the 60's and 70's for laying off senior level managers and employees who would otherwise be eligible for their pensions.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:41 pm

If she has a bad review they have already documentation on their side that she is a bad-performer. She should look for another job - if they need to cut back - they already have their (no-age-related) reason to do so starting with her - bad performance as documented during her yearly review and continued beyond that.
Not sure what you mean by "protect herself". Against what? Being let go for poor performance? Nothing she can do about that since they have already documented her having poor performance.
In my mind if she wants to keep the job the best thing she can do is to get to know the manager better and see if she can become more efficient at getting things done - show the manager she can do the job well - provided she does the job well they won't want to get rid of her.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:56 pm

Gnirk wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:49 pm
Another thing to think about is how her leaving or being forced to leave will affect her pension, if she has one. A large aerospace company was famous in the 60's and 70's for laying off senior level managers and employees who would otherwise be eligible for their pensions.
Yes - a possible consideration as well.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by bernoulli » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:06 pm

It would really have to depend on the labor law of the state where she resides. For most private employers, employees are "at will" meaning you can be let go even if your review is perfect.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by DaftInvestor » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:09 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:56 pm
Gnirk wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:49 pm
Another thing to think about is how her leaving or being forced to leave will affect her pension, if she has one. A large aerospace company was famous in the 60's and 70's for laying off senior level managers and employees who would otherwise be eligible for their pensions.
Yes - a possible consideration as well.
Very few private companies pay pensions these days so none of us even thought that as a possibility.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:20 pm

DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:09 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:56 pm
Gnirk wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:49 pm
Another thing to think about is how her leaving or being forced to leave will affect her pension, if she has one. A large aerospace company was famous in the 60's and 70's for laying off senior level managers and employees who would otherwise be eligible for their pensions.
Yes - a possible consideration as well.
Very few private companies pay pensions these days so none of us even thought that as a possibility.
Yes - very, very true! There is a possibility, though, that she might be "grandfathered" in such a pension and how/when she leaves might be a factor.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Nate79 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:39 pm

Sounds like she needs to improve her performance or else find another job.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:54 pm

If she is 64 and has 30 years service, I would think he pension would be vested.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dm200 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:57 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:54 pm
If she is 64 and has 30 years service, I would think he pension would be vested.

Broken Man 1999
There are (or may be) differences in being "vested" and "retiring"

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dbr » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:57 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:54 pm
If she is 64 and has 30 years service, I would think he pension would be vested.

Broken Man 1999
There are (or may be) differences in being "vested" and "retiring"
I would have expected most pensions would begin payments immediately on retirement usually any time after age 55. Sometimes the payment is reduced for years before a certain age or number of years employed and sometimes the pension start date can be delayed for a larger payment. At my former employer pensions could be claimed for retirement after age 55 and there was a 5% reduction in benefit for every year short of age 62. There was no provision to postpone the initiation of the pension. The pension benefit would be computed from such things as years of service, final years salary, early retirement reduction, and so on. At age 55 a 25 year employee would increase their pension benefit by 11% per year derived from 5% less early retirement penalty, 4% increased seniority, and an assumption of 2% inflation increase in wages. By waiting to age 62 that is a pension increase of 77% (rough, inexact arithmetic) for waiting.

I think it would be wise to understand exactly the terms of the pension. I doubt as another poster doubts that much will be lost from retirement at age 64 with 30 years seniority.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:37 pm

^^^ Good point. My prior employer's pension plan also had a provision that if you retired after the age of 55, you were fully vested at 60. So, look for that option as well.

I think that provision was to ensure that someone who quit the company at a much younger age had to wait until 65. Those who've managed to hang around until much later were "rewarded" with an early retirement vesting bonus.
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by renue74 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:40 pm

It's all hearsay for now. Every state except for Montana is an "at will," state. I can fire my employees for no reason.

Maybe the manager's expectations are higher than the past because the division is not doing as well.

Maybe the manager just doesn't like the person.

There's so many factors that would go into this.

My advice is to go look for a new job. Do it now instead of later.

I have a small business....and often times, I may have employees that I feel have gotten too comfortable. My business is a "stepping stone," for young college grads to start out, but they shouldn't stay with me for longer than 2-3 years.

Often times, I'll simply tell them they need to move on. They need to work in different technologies or work in larger teams or focus on different industries. I think they appreciate my honesty and candor. I'm helping them grow professionally.

People are stupidly passive aggressive sometimes and this is what it sounds like.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:02 pm

dbr wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:57 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:54 pm
If she is 64 and has 30 years service, I would think he pension would be vested.

Broken Man 1999
There are (or may be) differences in being "vested" and "retiring"
I would have expected most pensions would begin payments immediately on retirement usually any time after age 55. Sometimes the payment is reduced for years before a certain age or number of years employed and sometimes the pension start date can be delayed for a larger payment. At my former employer pensions could be claimed for retirement after age 55 and there was a 5% reduction in benefit for every year short of age 62. There was no provision to postpone the initiation of the pension. The pension benefit would be computed from such things as years of service, final years salary, early retirement reduction, and so on. At age 55 a 25 year employee would increase their pension benefit by 11% per year derived from 5% less early retirement penalty, 4% increased seniority, and an assumption of 2% inflation increase in wages. By waiting to age 62 that is a pension increase of 77% (rough, inexact arithmetic) for waiting.

I think it would be wise to understand exactly the terms of the pension. I doubt as another poster doubts that much will be lost from retirement at age 64 with 30 years seniority.
Our pension was on a point system: Number of service years + age had to equal 75. Though, minimum age to get full pension was 55 years of age. Several times, as a sweetener to shed workers, the company would allow lower age, and sometimes reduce the point system to lower than 75 to get more employees to take a retirement package. Many of my peers retired early with generous packages, including retiree insurance.

If she has a pension, the SPD (summary plan description) would have the requirements and such. I hope she does.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:03 pm

dbr wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:57 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:54 pm
If she is 64 and has 30 years service, I would think he pension would be vested.

Broken Man 1999
There are (or may be) differences in being "vested" and "retiring"
I would have expected most pensions would begin payments immediately on retirement usually any time after age 55. Sometimes the payment is reduced for years before a certain age or number of years employed and sometimes the pension start date can be delayed for a larger payment. At my former employer pensions could be claimed for retirement after age 55 and there was a 5% reduction in benefit for every year short of age 62. There was no provision to postpone the initiation of the pension. The pension benefit would be computed from such things as years of service, final years salary, early retirement reduction, and so on. At age 55 a 25 year employee would increase their pension benefit by 11% per year derived from 5% less early retirement penalty, 4% increased seniority, and an assumption of 2% inflation increase in wages. By waiting to age 62 that is a pension increase of 77% (rough, inexact arithmetic) for waiting.

I think it would be wise to understand exactly the terms of the pension. I doubt as another poster doubts that much will be lost from retirement at age 64 with 30 years seniority.
Our pension was on a point system: Number of service years + age had to equal 75. Though, minimum age to get full pension was 55 years of age. Several times, as a sweetener to shed workers, the company would allow lower age, and sometimes reduce the point system to lower than 75 to get more employees to take a retirement package. Many of my peers retired early with generous packages, including retiree insurance.

If she has a pension, the SPD (summary plan description) would have the requirements and such. I hope she does.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by cherijoh » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:41 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:20 pm
DaftInvestor wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:09 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:56 pm
Gnirk wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:49 pm
Another thing to think about is how her leaving or being forced to leave will affect her pension, if she has one. A large aerospace company was famous in the 60's and 70's for laying off senior level managers and employees who would otherwise be eligible for their pensions.
Yes - a possible consideration as well.
Very few private companies pay pensions these days so none of us even thought that as a possibility.
Yes - very, very true! There is a possibility, though, that she might be "grandfathered" in such a pension and how/when she leaves might be a factor.
If she has been there 30 years she would definitely be vested in any pension. Since she is almost 65 anyway, the biggest impact is when she could start drawing the pension. Hopefully sh would be offered a severance package that would help bridge the gap.

ERISA protects the already accrued benefit - although the amount could be capped if the company declares bankruptcy and the plan gets turned over to PBGC. I think ERISA was passed in the 80's - probably as a result of the shenanigans you mentioned.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by rj342 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:23 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:42 am
Years ago, for example, it was very common that various kinds of employees (such as public school teachers) had to leave at age 65. That is no longer the case - although I suspect most teachers at age 65 are more close to "burnout", etc.
Hah. After 29 years my award winning public school teacher wife was burned out at age 51!

Between students (and parent(s)) getting worse, and ever increasing bureaucratic BS being foisted on them by district admin, state and federal depts of education.

She is now teaching a few more years in Catholic school and loves it. Less money (though ahead overall since already drawing the public school pension) but much better kids and a lot less bureaucracy.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:00 pm

There's a lot of speculation and a lot we don't know. I would take what she said at face value. However, many people don't notice their own aging like outsiders do. There is frankly little she can do other than prepare for leaving. If she can get a good severance package, which after 30 years should be possible, that would be ideal. I don't know what she specifically does, but the job prospects are probably not great but I wouldn't let that keep me from trying.

I am not sure how long ago this review was, but my guess would be they want to get one more bad review on the record before firing her.

As a side note, I've heard a wide range of things about employees working long hours from management. Some think it is great and shows loyalty and commitment. Some have told me it indicates someone that is slow and cannot get the job done in a normal timeframe.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Dottie57 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:38 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:01 am
Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
She’s feeling the stress as they've given her an increasing amount of work where’s she been at the office till 8 or 9 pm finishing up her projects yet they her tell it is not enough.
Are you sure about this? In my decades at Megacorp, I personally observed that near 100% of the reports of people working ridiculous hours were [not true --admin LadyGeek]. On those rare occasions where I myself was there late at night, the parking lots were a ghost town. I guess these super-employees just sold their cars and lived at the place.... :D
You are right in that people at Megacorp don’t stay at the office. But they do go home and have a quick dinner. Then login VIA corporate VPN to start the evening work. Parking lots are not always a good measure.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by dbr » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:43 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:38 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:01 am
Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
She’s feeling the stress as they've given her an increasing amount of work where’s she been at the office till 8 or 9 pm finishing up her projects yet they her tell it is not enough.
Are you sure about this? In my decades at Megacorp, I personally observed that near 100% of the reports of people working ridiculous hours were [not true --admin LadyGeek]. On those rare occasions where I myself was there late at night, the parking lots were a ghost town. I guess these super-employees just sold their cars and lived at the place.... :D
You are right in that people at Megacorp don’t stay at the office. But they do go home and have a quick dinner. Then login VIA corporate VPN to start the evening work. Parking lots are not always a good measure.
I note people in R&D jobs tend to be workaholics and are present in facilities necessary for their work on long hours. In fact probably the most workaholic occupation I observed in my job is plant process engineers who are effectively responsible 24x7 and have to be on site to do what they do. Next after that were tech service engineers obligated to travel for customer assistance whenever needed, which is always.

It would probably lend perspective to this discussion to know exactly what job this person has.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by California88 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:18 pm

It's sad, but the company's behavior will probably continue. My advice would be to negotiate an exit package (1 or 2 year's salary + health benefits) - that will take her to the time that's she's able to collect Medicare. Try and find out what package others got (sometimes hard because they probably signed something to keep that info confidential).

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by FIREchief » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:34 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:38 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:01 am
Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
She’s feeling the stress as they've given her an increasing amount of work where’s she been at the office till 8 or 9 pm finishing up her projects yet they her tell it is not enough.
Are you sure about this? In my decades at Megacorp, I personally observed that near 100% of the reports of people working ridiculous hours were [not true --admin LadyGeek]. On those rare occasions where I myself was there late at night, the parking lots were a ghost town. I guess these super-employees just sold their cars and lived at the place.... :D
You are right in that people at Megacorp don’t stay at the office. But they do go home and have a quick dinner. Then login VIA corporate VPN to start the evening work. Parking lots are not always a good measure.
If the job is factory support, VPN doesn’t work. Certainly, during my years of MegaMgmt, I was on the grid 24/7, but I was referring to individual contributors. The stories often don’t align with the reality. I remember being sent in to help those who were killing themselves. I had my normal job but had to do whatever it took to help the marters. Biggest problem? When I went to help them either pre or post shift, their office was empty! :annoyed It really was a bunch of “balogna”
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

blackholescion
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by blackholescion » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:54 pm

masonstone wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:36 am
Can’t you fire someone for no reason in the U.S.? If the employer doesn’t like her they have the power to just let the employee go.
It varies from state to state but generally speaking, yes. Many corporations are risk averse and will do what OP is describing to avoid the potential for lawsuits (discrimination based on age in this case or otherwise).

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Socrates
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Socrates » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:36 pm

She can file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights related to age discrimination. She would need to document she was discriminated against due to her age, but they will have an attorney contact the agency and investigate. It is free.
“Don't waste your time looking back. You're not going that way.” ― Ragnar Lothbrok.

michaeljc70
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by michaeljc70 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:18 pm

I think a bunch of comments about age discrimination would only be proved if most/everyone they got rid of were old. Or emails or conversations were revealed stating so, which would be rare. The bad review is evidence for performance based firing , not aged base, whether true or not.

Employers, especially large ones which this seems to be, are very aware of age discrimination lawsuits and documenting things to try and make their case. That is where there is possibly an opening for a severance package. I remember a mass layoff at a client I worked at. If employees signed an agreement they wouldn't sue for discrimination or any other reason, they got ~double the severance.

TravelGeek
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by TravelGeek » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:49 am

crossbow wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:48 pm
Mr.BB wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:56 am
tell her to key start keeping private notes . Noting dates and times and conversations she has with managers, co-workers as well as reviews.
I've always wondered - can't these be fabricated when one decides to actually sue?
I’ve always assumed that most people wouldn’t want to lie in court. Submitting fabricated evidence would be just that, no?

So you fabricate a note six months later, based on your recollection, claiming that you met with your boss on a certain day and a certain time and this and that was said. And the company produces evidence that shows that the manager was on a call with customers during that time. Oops.

It’s called contemporaneous notes and is apparently useful.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by TravelGeek » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:00 am

michaeljc70 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:18 pm
I remember a mass layoff at a client I worked at. If employees signed an agreement they wouldn't sue for discrimination or any other reason, they got ~double the severance.
I think you pretty much have to sign an agreement not to sue in order to receive any severance.

pennywise
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by pennywise » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:10 am

crossbow wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:48 pm
Mr.BB wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:56 am
tell her to key start keeping private notes . Noting dates and times and conversations she has with managers, co-workers as well as reviews.
I've always wondered - can't these be fabricated when one decides to actually sue?
In HR-speak what one is doing is creating a memo to file, and when done via email that yields an easily noted date and time stamp. Obviously these are done on a private account since company email and IT resources belong to the company. Also the targeted employee should have copies of as many past performance reviews as possible on a separate personal source be it electronic or paper because those too will not be available upon termination or suspension

Keep in mind too, these need to be written as if they are a news report: answer the 5 Ws (who, what, when, where, why). These reports are not a journal, so there is no value in putting in emotional or opinionated statements. It's the difference between "the manager has been hostile to me for months" versus "On July 9 the manager informed me he expects me to produce the deliverable report on XY by July 10 although the report assignment was only received on July 8 and my colleague was given until July 15 to submit his report on another component of the project" Or between "he treats me like I"m incapable of doing the job" and "My manager stated to me on July 9 'you might be getting beyond the ability to turn my projects around on time, so maybe you should think about other jobs you could do". Memos to file should not attempt to make judgments on situations. The value for future usage is in documenting specific interactions and managerial requests, comments or instructions that could be damaging to the company.

Also to reiterate: the employee should be taking notes or at least memorizing what is said because it is extremely useful to document specific statements. Having a series of memos to file in which one quotes a manager or senior leader making actionable comments is a huge advantage.

And all of that is simply to create an online paper trail that will enable an individual to have strong supporting evidence of employment practices that are illegal or which could cause legal or fiscal entanglements for the firm. Specifically in this case of course it is age discrimination and possibly gender discrimination although that may be dicey if there are many women employed in similar positions. HR is charged with protecting the company from being sued and/or ending up being maligned in public via news reports or social media, all of which can cause financial damage to the company's bottom line. As others have rightly said HR is not an employee's advocate, friend or shield. But viewed dispassionately HR can be managed by an employee to help attain a desired result as long as that result is realistic.

Which is to say the unfortunate reality is when a company wants to get rid of someone it is going to happen. It may be realistic and mentally healthier to start framing the situation as a looming deadline, so during the process until separation occurs the 64 year old longtime employee should begin making serious and immediate plans for retirement while attempting to negotiate as much as possible prior to being terminated. That is the real value of keeping records and going to HR or a legal resource.

Better to rattle some HR/legal cages and end up with full medical benefits for a year until Medicare eligibility, or some months of severance etc. than to be terminated for cause--and they will find cause. The targeted employee needs to be realistic and accept what will happen given various scenarios, and part of that clarity is to realize that her current employment situation is not going to right itself and allow her to carry on for the next X years as she has for the past 30. Change is coming and she needs to buckle up and step onto the ride.

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Chicken lady
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by Chicken lady » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:48 am

As previously noted, it sounds like a new manager was installed to up production, cost effectiveness, etc.

Fully understand retirement rules + benefits. Can it work for this person? What are alternatives?

It seems to me that this person needs to honestly assess their productivity - some people do good quality work but are very slow. Timeliness is often critical - perhaps the old manager emphasized this work outcome less than the new manager and this is the real problem. Efficiency is a concept that is sometimes not considered important by workers. If this person is working 2 - 4 hours extra every day to get the job done I suspect this is part of the problem. I would consider a person who is working the equivalent of another part-time job every night to be having a performance problem unless the work load had been increased by a part-time quantity of work.

Work until the 'typical' off duty time and then leave. Work quickly and efficiently every minute while at work.

Things change - keep doing the best work every day. Who knows, sometimes it those who have been installed to shake things up that are the first to go. Try to help this manager look good so he/she can continue climbing the ladder of success and out of this person's world.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by crossbow » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:01 am

TravelGeek wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:49 am
crossbow wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:48 pm
Mr.BB wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:56 am
tell her to key start keeping private notes . Noting dates and times and conversations she has with managers, co-workers as well as reviews.
I've always wondered - can't these be fabricated when one decides to actually sue?
I’ve always assumed that most people wouldn’t want to lie in court. Submitting fabricated evidence would be just that, no?

So you fabricate a note six months later, based on your recollection, claiming that you met with your boss on a certain day and a certain time and this and that was said. And the company produces evidence that shows that the manager was on a call with customers during that time. Oops.

It’s called contemporaneous notes and is apparently useful.
True, I was thinking along the lines of if I were the presiding judge, how would I be sure that the notes weren't just made up? If there was a co-signer or something, sure, that works, otherwise it would seem like a case of he said she said.

crossbow
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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by crossbow » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:02 am

pennywise wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:10 am
crossbow wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:48 pm
Mr.BB wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:56 am
tell her to key start keeping private notes . Noting dates and times and conversations she has with managers, co-workers as well as reviews.
I've always wondered - can't these be fabricated when one decides to actually sue?
In HR-speak what one is doing is creating a memo to file, and when done via email that yields an easily noted date and time stamp. Obviously these are done on a private account since company email and IT resources belong to the company. Also the targeted employee should have copies of as many past performance reviews as possible on a separate personal source be it electronic or paper because those too will not be available upon termination or suspension

Keep in mind too, these need to be written as if they are a news report: answer the 5 Ws (who, what, when, where, why). These reports are not a journal, so there is no value in putting in emotional or opinionated statements. It's the difference between "the manager has been hostile to me for months" versus "On July 9 the manager informed me he expects me to produce the deliverable report on XY by July 10 although the report assignment was only received on July 8 and my colleague was given until July 15 to submit his report on another component of the project" Or between "he treats me like I"m incapable of doing the job" and "My manager stated to me on July 9 'you might be getting beyond the ability to turn my projects around on time, so maybe you should think about other jobs you could do". Memos to file should not attempt to make judgments on situations. The value for future usage is in documenting specific interactions and managerial requests, comments or instructions that could be damaging to the company.

Also to reiterate: the employee should be taking notes or at least memorizing what is said because it is extremely useful to document specific statements. Having a series of memos to file in which one quotes a manager or senior leader making actionable comments is a huge advantage.

And all of that is simply to create an online paper trail that will enable an individual to have strong supporting evidence of employment practices that are illegal or which could cause legal or fiscal entanglements for the firm. Specifically in this case of course it is age discrimination and possibly gender discrimination although that may be dicey if there are many women employed in similar positions. HR is charged with protecting the company from being sued and/or ending up being maligned in public via news reports or social media, all of which can cause financial damage to the company's bottom line. As others have rightly said HR is not an employee's advocate, friend or shield. But viewed dispassionately HR can be managed by an employee to help attain a desired result as long as that result is realistic.

Which is to say the unfortunate reality is when a company wants to get rid of someone it is going to happen. It may be realistic and mentally healthier to start framing the situation as a looming deadline, so during the process until separation occurs the 64 year old longtime employee should begin making serious and immediate plans for retirement while attempting to negotiate as much as possible prior to being terminated. That is the real value of keeping records and going to HR or a legal resource.

Better to rattle some HR/legal cages and end up with full medical benefits for a year until Medicare eligibility, or some months of severance etc. than to be terminated for cause--and they will find cause. The targeted employee needs to be realistic and accept what will happen given various scenarios, and part of that clarity is to realize that her current employment situation is not going to right itself and allow her to carry on for the next X years as she has for the past 30. Change is coming and she needs to buckle up and step onto the ride.
Email with timestamp is a good idea, lends some extra credibility as opposed to a handwritten note.

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Re: Harrassed at work, what steps to take to protect her future employment

Post by DrCheese » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:01 am

Will do good wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
She has taken to communicating with her manager by email to document all requests and to limit verbal requests.

If I was her manager and she told me how I should interact with her, I would label her as trouble and try to get rid of her.

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