FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

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Cyanide123
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FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm

I am a physician graduating from residency in 1 month. I have a contract set in place where I'm making a minimum of 435k that starts in July. My wife is also a resident physician, she graduates in 2 years. We expect her to have an income around ~200k after she is done.

Residency training was very draining. I think I'm walking out burned out even before my career has officially started. My initial plan in life was to save 200k+ a year until we hit 4M in assets and then retire and live on 3 percent of retirement funds, simple 3 fund portfolio investments only. According to my calculations, that will take a good 18-20 years and I'll probably hit 50. I'm currently 30, spouse is 26, we have a baby on the way.

Option B, which I never had considered earlier, is something I'm thinking of more and more. A little background first, I grew up on the other side of the world where I spent 18 years, did highschool, then moved here for college, med school and then residency. Same for spouse, but she just moved and started residency. Never considered going back, but life was pretty good there as well. So option B can involve aggressive saving 200k+ annually and then walking out financially independent in maybe 7 years with around $1.5M in assets. I can be financially independent with $1.5M easily if we go back to our home country. 3 percent of $1.5 M will infact give us a rather luxurious lifestyle back where we are from - a cook, someone cleaning the house, a chauffer, with passive income in the top 5 percent of households. The only downside to moving is we will give up our high income potential that we both worked hard to achieve. And maybe it will be harder for kids to move back to the US for college (just like it was for myself and my brother - my parents also had high paying jobs in the US that they let go in favor to moving back to Pakistan in the 80s)

Just curious what others would do, this is all theoretical, I don't have to make any decisions today or anytime soon. So my question for you guys, if you could retire in your late 30s and have a fairly comfortable and luxurious lifestyle, would you do that? Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding? I'm just curious how many of you folks would pack your bag and never work again if you had the opportunity to do it soon.

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Meaty
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Meaty » Mon May 27, 2019 5:25 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
I am a physician graduating from residency in 1 month. I have a contract set in place where I'm making a minimum of 435k that starts in July. My wife is also a resident physician, she graduates in 2 years. We expect her to have an income around ~200k after she is done.

Residency training was very draining. I think I'm walking out burned out even before my career has officially started. My initial plan in life was to save 200k+ a year until we hit 4M in assets and then retire and live on 3 percent of retirement funds, simple 3 fund portfolio investments only. According to my calculations, that will take a good 18-20 years and I'll probably hit 50. I'm currently 30, spouse is 26, we have a baby on the way.

Option B, which I never had considered earlier, is something I'm thinking of more and more. A little background first, I grew up on the other side of the world where I spent 18 years, did highschool, then moved here for college, med school and then residency. Same for spouse, but she just moved and started residency. Never considered going back, but life was pretty good there as well. So option B can involve aggressive saving 200k+ annually and then walking out financially independent in maybe 7 years with around $1.5M in assets. I can be financially independent with $1.5M easily if we go back to our home country. 3 percent of $1.5 M will infact give us a rather luxurious lifestyle back where we are from - a cook, someone cleaning the house, a chauffer, with passive income in the top 5 percent of households. The only downside to moving is we will give up our high income potential that we both worked hard to achieve. And maybe it will be harder for kids to move back to the US for college (just like it was for myself and my brother - my parents also had high paying jobs in the US that they let go in favor to moving back to Pakistan in the 80s)

Just curious what others would do, this is all theoretical, I don't have to make any decisions today or anytime soon. So my question for you guys, if you could retire in your late 30s and have a fairly comfortable and luxurious lifestyle, would you do that? Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding? I'm just curious how many of you folks would pack your bag and never work again if you had the opportunity to do it soon.
I’d find a way to down shift in 5-7 years. Work part time, etc
"Discipline equals Freedom" - Jocko Willink

cherijoh
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by cherijoh » Mon May 27, 2019 5:45 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
I am a physician graduating from residency in 1 month. I have a contract set in place where I'm making a minimum of 435k that starts in July. My wife is also a resident physician, she graduates in 2 years. We expect her to have an income around ~200k after she is done.

Residency training was very draining. I think I'm walking out burned out even before my career has officially started. My initial plan in life was to save 200k+ a year until we hit 4M in assets and then retire and live on 3 percent of retirement funds, simple 3 fund portfolio investments only. According to my calculations, that will take a good 18-20 years and I'll probably hit 50. I'm currently 30, spouse is 26, we have a baby on the way.

Option B, which I never had considered earlier, is something I'm thinking of more and more. A little background first, I grew up on the other side of the world where I spent 18 years, did highschool, then moved here for college, med school and then residency. Same for spouse, but she just moved and started residency. Never considered going back, but life was pretty good there as well. So option B can involve aggressive saving 200k+ annually and then walking out financially independent in maybe 7 years with around $1.5M in assets. I can be financially independent with $1.5M easily if we go back to our home country. 3 percent of $1.5 M will infact give us a rather luxurious lifestyle back where we are from - a cook, someone cleaning the house, a chauffer, with passive income in the top 5 percent of households. The only downside to moving is we will give up our high income potential that we both worked hard to achieve. And maybe it will be harder for kids to move back to the US for college (just like it was for myself and my brother - my parents also had high paying jobs in the US that they let go in favor to moving back to Pakistan in the 80s)

Just curious what others would do, this is all theoretical, I don't have to make any decisions today or anytime soon. So my question for you guys, if you could retire in your late 30s and have a fairly comfortable and luxurious lifestyle, would you do that? Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding? I'm just curious how many of you folks would pack your bag and never work again if you had the opportunity to do it soon.
I think you need to see how you feel in a few months after you have recovered from severe sleep deprivation. It is probably a good idea to save aggressively and spent modestly until you see how it goes. Don't get caught up on the hedonistic treadmill to the point that you can't get off and simplify your life if that is what you ultimately decide to do. But it would be a shame in my opinion to spend more time preparing for your careeer than actually practicing it.

I speak as someone who reinvented themselves in their mid-40s after I opted to leave my employer rather than relocate. I went back to school for a Masters and started a second career. I probably could have had a modest retirement instead although I was concerned about health care costs (pre ACA) and I thought I might get bored. I retired at 59 and am loving it. But I don't regret not retiring earlier when I had the opportunity.

mhalley
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by mhalley » Mon May 27, 2019 5:47 pm

I would say it is way too early to start yearning for FIRE when you haven’t even worked as an attending. If you do have “burnout” you can always change jobs or cut back once you have built up a good net worth and retired any student loans.
I retired from the ER after a 25 year career, the last 5 pretty burned out. There are plenty of non clinical jobs out there, depending on your specialty, but at least give medicine a chance. She is a harsh mistress, but can be very rewarding.
I have seen many docs shamed for wanting to retire early due to their “duty to society”. You have a duty to yourself and your patients, practicing while burned out does neither a service. Don’t jump into buying a house until you are you like your new attending position.
Good luck!

FoolMeOnce
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by FoolMeOnce » Mon May 27, 2019 7:00 pm

If you can save $250k/yr, you'll hit $4 million in today's dollars with 4% real retun in about 12.5 years.

HornedToad
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by HornedToad » Mon May 27, 2019 7:07 pm

Take a week vacation where you sit and do nothing.

Then you’ll be in a better state to assess and try to balance regular relaxing vacations to prevent burn out. Nothing wrong with downshifting in a while but do it because you want to, not because too burned out

cableguy
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by cableguy » Mon May 27, 2019 7:27 pm

Do the job you've trained for....you've studied for....you may even have student loans for? Retire in your 20's, 30's, 40's? Why? Once you start working, if you enjoy the work, and just as important the people, the money will follow. Save some of the money and enjoy life along the way. You'll have plenty of time to "retire"....

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Watty
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Watty » Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
I think I'm walking out burned out....
I am not a doctor but if you had a patient tell you a similar story I would suspect that you would do something like;

1) Have them get a physical and appropriate tests to see if there is a physical ailment.

2) Instruct them to get some counseling to help figure out how to handle the situation.

That would be a good starting point.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
....in maybe 7 years with.....
I would guess that by then you will have been out of the country for at least 20 years. By then there will be a lot of changes and the reality of it may be little like you remember it as a teenager. At some point you might want to do something like take six months off work to go back and live and work there for a while before you decide on a permanent move.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding?
The pay might not be anywhere near the same but I would assume that you could still practice as a doctor at least part time if you returned. If the specialty you work in is underserved in Pakistan then you might even be doing more "duty to society".
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
3 percent of $1.5 M will infact give us a rather luxurious lifestyle back where we are from - a cook, someone cleaning the house, a chauffer, with passive income in the top 5 percent of households.
With a household income of over $635K you could pretty much live the same lifestyle in the US.

EddyB
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by EddyB » Mon May 27, 2019 7:51 pm

Watty wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 pm
With a household income of over $635K you could pretty much live the same lifestyle in the US.
The working vs. not working seems like a pretty big lifestyle difference, no?

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Mon May 27, 2019 8:12 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
I am a physician graduating from residency in 1 month. I have a contract set in place where I'm making a minimum of 435k that starts in July. My wife is also a resident physician, she graduates in 2 years. We expect her to have an income around ~200k after she is done.

Residency training was very draining. I think I'm walking out burned out even before my career has officially started. My initial plan in life was to save 200k+ a year until we hit 4M in assets and then retire and live on 3 percent of retirement funds, simple 3 fund portfolio investments only. According to my calculations, that will take a good 18-20 years and I'll probably hit 50. I'm currently 30, spouse is 26, we have a baby on the way.


Just curious what others would do, this is all theoretical, I don't have to make any decisions today or anytime soon. So my question for you guys, if you could retire in your late 30s and have a fairly comfortable and luxurious lifestyle, would you do that? Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding? I'm just curious how many of you folks would pack your bag and never work again if you had the opportunity to do it soon.
As a physician you ought to be well aware that life is short. At your age, I would work, save and live your life instead of creating some plan to retire in 20 years or 7 years. Instead, why not consider re-evaluating where you stand every 3-4 years while you reap the fruits of your studying and enjoying your family at the same time? Everyone I ever knew who made plans to retire at a set time, well, life got in the way. It would have been better to have just lived life and when/if the moment to retire arrived, then make the decision to retire. And to answer your question, if some large bag of assets were to drop from the sky, unencumbered with any claims, free and clear into my lap, I would stop and start doing something else immediately.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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bligh
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by bligh » Mon May 27, 2019 8:18 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Just curious what others would do, this is all theoretical, I don't have to make any decisions today or anytime soon. So my question for you guys, if you could retire in your late 30s and have a fairly comfortable and luxurious lifestyle, would you do that? Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding? I'm just curious how many of you folks would pack your bag and never work again if you had the opportunity to do it soon.
Since you don’t have to make a decision any time soon you have a clear direction for now. Whether you FIRE 7 years from now or 20 years from now, the path is identical. Once you hit your 1.5 million nest egg, take it one year at a time. At any point after year 7 you and your spouse can make the call to wrap it up and head back to your country of origin. If you are happy with the way things are then stay one more year and re-evaluate.

More money is always better, but it has to be weighed against how much you hate/love your job. If I hated my job and didn’t see an option to switch to a different setup, I would take the 1.5 million and be happy. If I was satisfied with my job, every year past the 1.5 million, I would evaluate if I wanted to work an additional year.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that, once you get past the point where you need the job for the money, the job actually becomes less stressful and more enjoyable. The stuff that used to bother you before just stops bothering you as much.

cableguy
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by cableguy » Mon May 27, 2019 8:22 pm

Its such an inside job. I've read posts on this blog where people would run for the hills and never look back if they had $1M.....then another person would say they need $2M.....then another at $3M.......$5M.....etc.

Once thing is for sure....if you think $1.5M would do it, and you aren't even 30 years old....I can promise you.....that isn't enough!

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:29 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:45 pm

I think you need to see how you feel in a few months after you have recovered from severe sleep deprivation. It is probably a good idea to save aggressively and spent modestly until you see how it goes. Don't get caught up on the hedonistic treadmill to the point that you can't get off and simplify your life if that is what you ultimately decide to do. But it would be a shame in my opinion to spend more time preparing for your careeer than actually practicing it.

I speak as someone who reinvented themselves in their mid-40s after I opted to leave my employer rather than relocate. I went back to school for a Masters and started a second career. I probably could have had a modest retirement instead although I was concerned about health care costs (pre ACA) and I thought I might get bored. I retired at 59 and am loving it. But I don't regret not retiring earlier when I had the opportunity.
I still love what I do. I enjoy maybe 80 percent of my patient interactions, but whenever there is a long stretch of work days, I'm aching for a day off. I LOVE my days off, far more than I love my days at work.

I'm an ER doctor and it is fairly frequent where we get belligerent patients, patients just yelling and cursing at us. It just gets old to be disrespected by patients and colleagues (consultants who you call at odd times at night 😂). I can still do this for several more years. But it's all so tempting to walk away from the stress, and don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly capable of handling the stress, but it's a tempting proposition.

The rational side of me will probably work till I'm dead while building an empire to leave my children when I die 😂😂

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:35 pm

mhalley wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:47 pm
I would say it is way too early to start yearning for FIRE when you haven’t even worked as an attending. If you do have “burnout” you can always change jobs or cut back once you have built up a good net worth and retired any student loans.
I retired from the ER after a 25 year career, the last 5 pretty burned out. There are plenty of non clinical jobs out there, depending on your specialty, but at least give medicine a chance. She is a harsh mistress, but can be very rewarding.
I have seen many docs shamed for wanting to retire early due to their “duty to society”. You have a duty to yourself and your patients, practicing while burned out does neither a service. Don’t jump into buying a house until you are you like your new attending position.
Good luck!
I'm EM myself, wife is family medicine. I think these thoughts are more in my head these days because my wife is now pregnant and we're figuring out logistics of raising children while she is in residency and while my contract is a full time nocturnist gig.

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by tfb » Mon May 27, 2019 8:41 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Just curious what others would do, this is all theoretical, I don't have to make any decisions today or anytime soon. So my question for you guys, if you could retire in your late 30s and have a fairly comfortable and luxurious lifestyle, would you do that? Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding?
Just remember those are not your only two options. Even now there may very well be a path of staying in the U.S. and shedding the parts that you don't like.
Harry Sit, taking a break from the forums.

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by alpha88 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:49 pm

Here's my advice, as a practicing physician -

1. Working as an attending is significantly more satisfying and also much easier (in terms of stress, hours, effort, etc) than being a resident. I'd expect everything to be completely different for you two once you're in practice.

2. If burnout is still an issue, there are plenty of different places to work - maybe nocturnist at a level 1 trauma center isn't your thing, but you might find part time at a small community ED very rewarding.

3. Your expenses are going to rise significantly, compared to residency, especially with a new baby. I'm not you'd be able to save ~200k a year. (unless you have some relatively unique circumstances).

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:08 pm

Watty wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 pm
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
I think I'm walking out burned out....
I am not a doctor but if you had a patient tell you a similar story I would suspect that you would do something like;

1) Have them get a physical and appropriate tests to see if there is a physical ailment.

2) Instruct them to get some counseling to help figure out how to handle the situation.

That would be a good starting point.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
....in maybe 7 years with.....
I would guess that by then you will have been out of the country for at least 20 years. By then there will be a lot of changes and the reality of it may be little like you remember it as a teenager. At some point you might want to do something like take six months off work to go back and live and work there for a while before you decide on a permanent move.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding?
The pay might not be anywhere near the same but I would assume that you could still practice as a doctor at least part time if you returned. If the specialty you work in is underserved in Pakistan then you might even be doing more "duty to society".
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
3 percent of $1.5 M will infact give us a rather luxurious lifestyle back where we are from - a cook, someone cleaning the house, a chauffer, with passive income in the top 5 percent of households.
With a household income of over $635K you could pretty much live the same lifestyle in the US.
No physical ailment, just exhaustion from working 70-80 hours a week for the last 3 years roughly averaging maybe 14-15 dollars an hour despite having a M.D. after my name. And the exhaustion of always being a perfectionist and high achiever (top 1 percent of board scores, highest scores in residency, top 10 % of a very highly regarded med school). Maybe I just want to play it easy for a little while 😂

If we did move, yes we'd probably set up shop in Pakistan in some way or another. I think the patient population there may actually be more thankful and in significantly greater need than here.

Also, you have to be a multi millionaire to afford the kind of lifestyle one could have in Pakistan. My parents were upper middle class in Pakistan. We had a cook, a lady who did all the cleaning in the morning, a gardener, and a driver. They weren't even rich 😂 my dad roughly made $1000/month in equivalent pk rupees and that was our lifestyle 15 years ago - I went to a private school $30/month. My sister went to a government medical school $100/year. This is in the 8th largest city of the world. So it's not some rural crap hole.

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by GCD » Mon May 27, 2019 9:24 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:45 pm
I think you need to see how you feel in a few months after you have recovered from severe sleep deprivation.
This. I was gonna post more, but just this.

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Ged » Mon May 27, 2019 9:30 pm

I think you do not have enough data yet to make an irrevocable decision.

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by climber2020 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:36 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Residency training was very draining. I think I'm walking out burned out even before my career has officially started.
I can relate. I got burned out in my 4th year of medical school and it never got better until I escaped residency. I've never been incarcerated, but I imagine it's the closest I'll ever feel to the experience of being released from prison. One thing that really helped was taking several months off after residency, traveling to far off places on the other side of the earth and drinking all their beer, and having several weeks before starting my job where I had absolutely nothing planned for any given day.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
So option B can involve aggressive saving 200k+ annually and then walking out financially independent in maybe 7 years with around $1.5M in assets.
You could do this and then cut back your hours so you're not working so much. I made the transition a year ago and it made a huge difference in life satisfaction.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding?
Nonsense. Other than student loans, you don't owe anyone anything. Do what makes you happy and apologize to no one.

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:47 pm

alpha88 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:49 pm
Here's my advice, as a practicing physician -

1. Working as an attending is significantly more satisfying and also much easier (in terms of stress, hours, effort, etc) than being a resident. I'd expect everything to be completely different for you two once you're in practice.

2. If burnout is still an issue, there are plenty of different places to work - maybe nocturnist at a level 1 trauma center isn't your thing, but you might find part time at a small community ED very rewarding.

3. Your expenses are going to rise significantly, compared to residency, especially with a new baby. I'm not you'd be able to save ~200k a year. (unless you have some relatively unique circumstances).
I've been moonlighting in the community on the side as a pgy3, I enjoy moonlighting so much more. I'm pretty sure things will get better as an attending. You are correct and I know most of this burn out is due to residency. It will get better, I'm fairly certain of it. For all I know I might end up being one of those people who practice into their 70s. EM though is a young person's field.

My current contract is two years, it's a fairly busy shop, single coverage. I plan to push myself for the next two years to solidify my skill set as a physician. After that I'll probably find a slower job and likely take a pay cut. Some of my moonlighting gigs are rural places which are actually very relaxing to work at. And I personally like those patients significantly better than the inner city patients I see at my level 1 residency shop.

As to your third point, I honestly can't imagine a scenario where I don't save $200k a year. The only lifestyle upgrade my wife and I are doing for the next couple of years is move from a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom place ($800/month) to a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom place ($1350/month) lol 😂. We're both pretty cheap 😂 a baby can't be more than 5k-10k/year. Our current expenses are maybe 30-35k a year. We're not buying a home for another couple of years. Not buying any new car, already upgraded cars two years ago. When we do buy a home, it will be in a LCOL place with a absolute Max budget of 500k. We would have to do some serious spending to not save at least $200k/year.

spooky105
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by spooky105 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:58 pm

Recommend you work your way through the back catalogue of the https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com podcast -- quite a few episodes talk to ways to structure you work/life balance via different employment arrangements. As others have mentioned, best to take the time to study your options and see how attending life treats you before committing one way or another. Continue to live like a resident and you'll have plenty of options.

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:04 pm

climber2020 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:36 pm
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Residency training was very draining. I think I'm walking out burned out even before my career has officially started.
I can relate. I got burned out in my 4th year of medical school and it never got better until I escaped residency. I've never been incarcerated, but I imagine it's the closest I'll ever feel to the experience of being released from prison. One thing that really helped was taking several months off after residency, traveling to far off places on the other side of the earth and drinking all their beer, and having several weeks before starting my job where I had absolutely nothing planned for any given day.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
So option B can involve aggressive saving 200k+ annually and then walking out financially independent in maybe 7 years with around $1.5M in assets.
You could do this and then cut back your hours so you're not working so much. I made the transition a year ago and it made a huge difference in life satisfaction.
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:22 pm
Or would you continue your duty to society as a physician and just keep grinding?
Nonsense. Other than student loans, you don't owe anyone anything. Do what makes you happy and apologize to no one.
Thank you :) I've already paid 35k from my student loans, another 155k left that I plan to knock out in 8-9 months.

Thank you for acknowledging that you felt similarly. I think a lot of us feel that way. College was a grind, it was all about having perfect scores so I can get into medicine. Others would party on the weekends, I'd work to pay the bills and study to stay on top. Then med school was a grind because I wouldn't accept being just average, I wanted to be at the best residency possible and get the best training possible. So I pushed myself then too. I just never took anything easy and always pushed myself. And then came the grind of residency. Literally my last month starts in 1 week. I have 7 calls where I'll be in the hospital for over 28 hours -_- I'm so done with this 😂😂😂

It's been 11 years of a lot of hard work. It's finally almost over. But man it was exhausting -_-

bayview
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by bayview » Mon May 27, 2019 11:17 pm

Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:47 pm

As to your third point, I honestly can't imagine a scenario where I don't save $200k a year. The only lifestyle upgrade my wife and I are doing for the next couple of years is move from a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom place ($800/month) to a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom place ($1350/month) lol 😂. We're both pretty cheap 😂 a baby can't be more than 5k-10k/year....
:shock: :oops: :shock: :oops: :shock:

Who takes care of the baby while you work nights and your wife does her 70-80 hours/week in her residency?


Edit to add: congratulations on surviving residency and on the upcoming addition to your family!
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:59 pm

bayview wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:17 pm
Cyanide123 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:47 pm

As to your third point, I honestly can't imagine a scenario where I don't save $200k a year. The only lifestyle upgrade my wife and I are doing for the next couple of years is move from a 2 bedroom 1 bathroom place ($800/month) to a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom place ($1350/month) lol 😂. We're both pretty cheap 😂 a baby can't be more than 5k-10k/year....
:shock: :oops: :shock: :oops: :shock:

Who takes care of the baby while you work nights and your wife does her 70-80 hours/week in her residency?


Edit to add: congratulations on surviving residency and on the upcoming addition to your family!
My parents are retired, I'm pretty sure my parents will be showing up at our doorstep. It's basically an expectation that there will be a lot of family support. Also, if my wife is at work 6 am - 6 pm; and I'll work from 7pm - 7 am. Most of the time there will always be one of us at home unless my wife is on call. Also, I'm kinda only going to work 11 days a month starting July. I'm basically home 20 days a month. Time will tell how well this works out but I think it will work out. I doubt we will spend a fortune on babysitting and day care. Anything we spend on childcare will be a tax deduction anyway so that's 40 cents back on every dollar spent.

esteen
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by esteen » Tue May 28, 2019 2:29 am

I am not a physician but my partner is, and she swears attending life feels like working part-time because moving from 80+hrs/week to 45 is cutting your work life in half. In her case there was definitely a few months long period of burnout that persisted after residency, but this will not last forever, certainly not even 7 years. And fortunately for you, EM in the US is pretty easy to do part-time or on a on/off contract basis as compared to most specialties.

Also, kids change everything. You may find that as your child(ren) grows up you will be making more location/retirement decisions based on their future rather than just your own.

As a previous poster said, you have time and your short-term plan is the same for either scenario, so right now you have your path regardless. Just keep your eyes open for options and don't get too married to a single path this early, because life always throws curve balls.

Your burnout WILL get better!

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LiveSimple
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by LiveSimple » Tue May 28, 2019 6:01 am

What about the lifestyle if you move back, such as clean water, clean air, less pollution, etc.

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beyou
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by beyou » Tue May 28, 2019 8:18 am

Your handle has me worried, not sure about who.

Jordan4FI
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Jordan4FI » Tue May 28, 2019 8:22 am

If I was making 435K and I had a partner that earned 200K, I would be inclined to save 400K minimum a year.. cause who can not live nice on 100K+?

EddyB
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by EddyB » Tue May 28, 2019 10:25 am

Jordan4FI wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:22 am
If I was making 435K and I had a partner that earned 200K, I would be inclined to save 400K minimum a year.. cause who can not live nice on 100K+?
Depending on what state they live or work in, this couple may only have $400k after taxes, so you and your hypothetical partner in their shoes would have to live on about nothing.

FI4LIFE
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by FI4LIFE » Tue May 28, 2019 11:04 am

Hold off on any long term planning until you are done having kids. They tend to throw a wrench in things

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greg24
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by greg24 » Tue May 28, 2019 11:05 am

Will you want to move your American kids to Pakistan?

I agree with those who suggest that kids change everything.

Save as much as you can. Decide the other stuff down the road.

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dgm
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by dgm » Tue May 28, 2019 11:19 am

what you are doing now is like contemplating never running again while running the final mile of a marathon.

understandable, but don't be hasty! recover first and then decide!

in the meanwhile, like everyone says, try to avoid lifestyle creep in order to keep your options open.

congratulations on graduating! :beer

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Wed May 29, 2019 3:37 am

LiveSimple wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:01 am
What about the lifestyle if you move back, such as clean water, clean air, less pollution, etc.
Pollution I'll give you. The sky is truly ia different color on the other side of the world. But clean water? I lived in a city of 10 million, plenty of clean water, development, and resources. In fact, my first footsteps in the US were in NYC. It didn't feel much different at all.

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Wed May 29, 2019 3:41 am

Jordan4FI wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:22 am
If I was making 435K and I had a partner that earned 200K, I would be inclined to save 400K minimum a year.. cause who can not live nice on 100K+?
As already stated by someone else, taxes will be ridiculous. The 435k is also 1099 income, so I'm paying my own FICA taxes too.

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Wed May 29, 2019 4:20 am

greg24 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:05 am
Will you want to move your American kids to Pakistan?

I agree with those who suggest that kids change everything.

Save as much as you can. Decide the other stuff down the road.
My siblings turned out okay. My sister was 5, my brother was 1 when my parents moved back to Pakistan. Sister is a physician in Boston now, brother owns his own consulting firm worth 10-15 million (or at least that was the last buy out offer he had).

In fact, raising children in the US is terrifying. There are no drugs in Pakistan. The basic high school curriculum is essentially all equivalent to AP curriculum, my highschool education gave me 36 college credits when I started. I wasnt in special AP classes in highschool, that was what everyone studied modeled after the British educational system. The highschools here are infiltrated with drugs and alcohol. I cant name a single highschool friend of mine who did drugs or alcohol. Half of them are resident physicians now. Marijuana is practically everywhere, even though it has been shown to diminish neutral development in people younger than 25 with an average IQ drop of 6 points. The American college education system is excellent, but highschools are fairly lagging. A lot of this is parenting, but culture I'm sure will influence my next generation. My first semester in college was organic chemistry, partial differential equations, some advanced 400 statistics class, multi variable calculus (calc 3), and a couple of chemical engineering courses, mostly because my foreign highschool was advanced over the average American highschool. My sister in fact did her medical education in Pakistan for $100/year, and she's roughly 10 years out of residency now and never acquired any student loans. While I acquired $200k of debt acquiring my "American medical education" and spent another 2-3 years longer in school than I would have had if I had gone through the Pakistani medical education. So that's not a terrible system to raise kids in. The opportunities after school here are far greater though, which is why I'm here obviously.

Anyway, will decide maybe 5-10 years down the line seeing how the stars align and how much I still like working. Thank you for your input.

onourway
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by onourway » Wed May 29, 2019 8:07 am

It sounds like you need to pause and take a break and assess what exactly it is you want out of life. If you are thinking of getting out of your career before you have even started, there's a pretty good chance you've made a mistake. That's ok. Everyone makes mistakes, and there is no real harm in changing course. IMO it is much more important to have a work-life balance that is sustainable for the long-term than to maximize ones career or income opportunities - especially as once you are beyond the point where you have the basics comfortably covered, additional income brings increasingly diminished returns. Your suggestion that you will work 12 hour night shifts while your wife works 12 hour day shifts and grandparents fill in for daycare sounds like a miserable long-term existence. There is a lot of life to be experienced outside of school and work. Go live it.

38,000 ft
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by 38,000 ft » Fri May 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Did anyone mention why bother paying back your student loans if you might move back to Pakistan? 😎

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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by KyleAAA » Fri May 31, 2019 8:34 pm

I’d accumulate $1mm or so over 5 years and move back to Pakistan since you are from there. You will have a higher QOL from the sound of it.

AlphaLess
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by AlphaLess » Fri May 31, 2019 8:50 pm

mhalley wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:47 pm
If you do have “burnout”
What's "burnout"?
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word." George Washington

AlphaLess
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by AlphaLess » Fri May 31, 2019 8:51 pm

38,000 ft wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:26 pm
Did anyone mention why bother paying back your student loans if you might move back to Pakistan? 😎
Because you borrowed it, and you are supposed to pay back.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word." George Washington

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Cyanide123
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Cyanide123 » Fri May 31, 2019 8:53 pm

38,000 ft wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:26 pm
Did anyone mention why bother paying back your student loans if you might move back to Pakistan? 😎
hahah No. I'm not that shady. Its only 155k left out of the original 200k. I'm fairly thankful for having the opportunity to be able to take federal loans and never having to depend on family support.

bltn
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by bltn » Fri May 31, 2019 9:45 pm

With your medical training, you and your wife have more job opportunities than more than 90% of the population.

Work for a couple of years, knock your student loans down, and put as big a chunk of money away as you can. Then look at your opportunities.

And you re right. As a private contractor, you re going to pay a lot of taxes.

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TxAg
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by TxAg » Fri May 31, 2019 9:56 pm

One thing is certain...Take a vacation and get some rest before the kiddo gets here. You'll be further sleep deprived.

Johnnyone
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Re: FIRE in 6-7 years vs 20+ years

Post by Johnnyone » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:10 am

Take the money and run. 6 to 7 years and then move. Your life will slip away and someone will sue for malpractice.

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