What to do when you have enough?

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Skyccord
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What to do when you have enough?

Post by Skyccord » Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm

I had a very interesting conversation with a friend who's Dad recently passed away. She has inherited a huge lump sum of money and I was telling her how it's best not to touch the principal and live off the interest. She had a very good question that I want to ask everyone here. She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

How would you folks entertain this question?

EDITED on 05/21/2019 @ 9:50PM EST to add the following below

Alright everyone lets slow down here. She is NOT really asking me for advice. She has advisors that her Dad that left behind and I am not one of them. My question had nothing to do with what to do in her situation but my question for everyone was simply the following:

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?

I just mentioned my friends situation to bring the question up that she asked about but the question is about you.

In regards to my friend. She has no debt. She was Daddy's princess and Daddy gave her everything she ever wanted and then some while he was alive. She had a positive net worth before he went. Lastly she's 30 just for those of you that want to know and is married.
Last edited by Skyccord on Tue May 21, 2019 8:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

goblue100
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by goblue100 » Tue May 21, 2019 3:39 pm

The simple answer is to set up 3.5% withdrawal plan. That should last her at least 50 years. You can get a lot more complicated than that depending on how "huge" the amount is and her desires on what to do with money.
Financial planners are savers. They want us to be 95 percent confident we can finance a 30-year retirement even though there is an 82 percent probability of being dead by then. - Scott Burns

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Sheepdog
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Sheepdog » Tue May 21, 2019 3:39 pm

Is there something which she has always wanted to do and never could or would like a month around the world cruise. Buy and drive a Maserati.....
Would she like to donate to someone or some group which she would like to help and make a good name for herself and do some good with her good fortune?

Those I would do.
It's not what you gather, but what you scatter which tells what kind of life you have lived---Helen Walton

bloom2708
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by bloom2708 » Tue May 21, 2019 3:44 pm

They should use it to pay off debt.

If 3.5% of the amount inherited is > their annual spending, then they have some great options.

The big worries are investing with high fees and costs, investing in things they don't understand, getting scammed, increasing spending, using large chunks for one time frivolous purchases. That type of stuff.

On the flip side, not using it as part of the full "when can we retire" picture could mean they work way longer than needed.

Send her to the Managing a Windfall page in the Wiki at Bogleheads. :wink:
"We are not here to agree with you; we are here to provoke thoughtfulness." Unknown Boglehead

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Riprap
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Riprap » Tue May 21, 2019 3:46 pm


jbranx
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by jbranx » Tue May 21, 2019 3:49 pm

Or pay off the medical debt of everyone in your city, county, region for pennies on the dollar:

https://www.ripmedicaldebt.org/

GmanJeff
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by GmanJeff » Tue May 21, 2019 3:56 pm

It sounds like she's asking why you counselled her to not touch the principal, and is not asking for advice on what to spend it on.

While there are potential advantages to not using principal, it's likely not necessary to be so Draconian unless there is a specific ambition to leave behind the principal upon her demise. In the interim, she will have spent less than she safely could have, with whatever implications that result will have had on her quality of life, ability to engage in philanthropy during her lifetime, and so on.
Last edited by GmanJeff on Tue May 21, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

delamer
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by delamer » Tue May 21, 2019 3:58 pm

To be blunt, your advice was not well thought out.

Your friend needs to make decisions about how to use her inheritance based on how it fits into her overall financial situation and goals.

To tell her to “live off the interest” is too simplistic. Hence, her question.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue May 21, 2019 3:59 pm

If your friend wants some BH advice, have her post here. And/or, read the wiki.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Sandtrap
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Sandtrap » Tue May 21, 2019 4:00 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
I had a very interesting conversation with a friend who's Dad recently passed away. She has inherited a huge lump sum of money and I was telling her how it's best not to touch the principal and live off the interest. She had a very good question that I want to ask everyone here. She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

How would you folks entertain this question?
MANAGING A WINDFALL
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Managing_a_windfall
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know

RadAudit
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by RadAudit » Tue May 21, 2019 4:02 pm

Huge is an interesting amount. And, the answer varies depending on how huge huge is.

But, basically three options. You can spend the money. Your kids can spend the money. Or, the government can spend the money. You get to choose. Choose wisely.

PS: A number of folks opt for total return vs dividends / interest to get a handle on future spending. SWRs, IIRC, are calculated on total return assumptions.

Edit: Well, since you edited, I can say - looking back - that when I retired, I didn't know if I had enough; but, I knew what I had to work with - which is not exactly the same thing but it is close. As for leaving money behind, I am more concerned about having enough to last as long as DW needs to be taken care of. And as for a legacy, I'm fairly sure that whatever money might be involved will be gone long before the grandkids are middle age, if not way before. The lack of interest in money matters by either DW or the kids is clearly a concern to me - particularly to the point of how the heck I screwed up in transmitting the importance of these matters to DW and the kids. So, if there is a legacy, I guess that's it.
Last edited by RadAudit on Tue May 21, 2019 9:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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chevca
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by chevca » Tue May 21, 2019 4:04 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
I had a very interesting conversation with a friend who's Dad recently passed away. She has inherited a huge lump sum of money and I was telling her how it's best not to touch the principal and live off the interest. She had a very good question that I want to ask everyone here. She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

How would you folks entertain this question?
Whenever she wants to... it's hers. :happy

As mentioned, if she has debt, pay it off... if she wants to buy herself something reasonable, buy it.

I would direct her here to BHs and the Wiki and windfall advice. Let her figure out what is "best" for her.

22twain
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by 22twain » Tue May 21, 2019 4:04 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
She has inherited a huge lump sum of money
How huge, compared to her expenses? Approximately how old is she?
My investing princiPLEs do not include absolutely preserving princiPAL.

Thegame14
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Thegame14 » Tue May 21, 2019 4:26 pm

why does the money have to be "used" how about passing it down and helping future generations? Or giving it to charity upon death? That is really a personal question. IMO the goal isn't to "use" the money, it is to live off the money and hopefully pass down to my kids and their kids enough to set them up better than I was and to eventually have generational wealth where they don't have to work for someone else, just manage investments and businesses.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by infotrader » Tue May 21, 2019 4:34 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:26 pm
why does the money have to be "used" how about passing it down and helping future generations? Or giving it to charity upon death? That is really a personal question. IMO the goal isn't to "use" the money, it is to live off the money and hopefully pass down to my kids and their kids enough to set them up better than I was and to eventually have generational wealth where they don't have to work for someone else, just manage investments and businesses.
Well said.
I think if you don't know how to manage the money and start touching the principal, the money can be gone very quickly. Just look at those who won big lotteries but went bankrupt after a short period of time.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by jebmke » Tue May 21, 2019 4:39 pm

infotrader wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 4:34 pm
I think if you don't know how to manage the money and start touching the principal, the money can be gone very quickly.
Can be - perhaps. But a typical diversified portfolio might have a yield of say, 2% whereas a 3% withdrawal rate would probably be safe for many people. In fact, if you plow a big chuck into an annuity at the right time you can spend all your income and principal.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Bacchus01 » Tue May 21, 2019 4:56 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
I had a very interesting conversation with a friend who's Dad recently passed away. She has inherited a huge lump sum of money and I was telling her how it's best not to touch the principal and live off the interest. She had a very good question that I want to ask everyone here. She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

How would you folks entertain this question?
Why would you tell her that?

nguy44
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by nguy44 » Tue May 21, 2019 5:00 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
I had a very interesting conversation with a friend who's Dad recently passed away. She has inherited a huge lump sum of money and I was telling her how it's best not to touch the principal and live off the interest. She had a very good question that I want to ask everyone here. She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

How would you folks entertain this question?
What "huge" means, as mentioned before, is one factor. The other is the persons age. If she is in her 20s or 30s, not touching the lump sum for as long as possible and just spending the income generated from it may be wise. If she is in her 50s and 60s, there may be less issues with starting to spend the lump sum wisely.

timewarp
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by timewarp » Tue May 21, 2019 7:08 pm

She should set herself up for a healthy lifestyle, buy healthy food, eat well, buy exercise equipment and clothing, maintain old relationships and develop healthy new relationships. Read Bogleheads personally. Its simple, don't abruptly change her life, rarely works. Volunteer with an organization that she has interests in. Reread Bogleheads.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Wed May 22, 2019 2:41 pm

This is what I did, and a couple of years later I answered some questions about it.

I agree with the standard advice that the recipient of a windfall, and particularly one resulting from a parent's death, should put it somewhere safe from declines, process the emotions, read up, make a plan, post it here for suggestions, and only then, much later, implement the plan.

Everybody and their proverbial brother will bother the person and try to scare them, mostly with Fear of Missing Out, to pay them huge commissions and further expenses which aren't apparent on the brokerage statement. Nobody should fall for it.

PJW

LiterallyIronic
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Wed May 22, 2019 3:02 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?
0. Immediately. You've got one life - live it.
1. As soon as I have 25x my annual expenses, which I believe will be a sum of $600,000, but I'll continually reevaluate as I age.
2. No. I want to bounce my last check. No point in being the richest guy in the cemetery.
3. No. When people say, "I want to leave a legacy," they really mean, "I want to leave some money." And I don't consider money to be legacy. Legacy is the memories you made. I guess that's related to why I don't think trusts should exist.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Wed May 22, 2019 3:29 pm

LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:02 pm
Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?
0. Immediately. You've got one life - live it.
1. As soon as I have 25x my annual expenses, which I believe will be a sum of $600,000, but I'll continually reevaluate as I age.
2. No. I want to bounce my last check. No point in being the richest guy in the cemetery.
3. No. When people say, "I want to leave a legacy," they really mean, "I want to leave some money." And I don't consider money to be legacy. Legacy is the memories you made. I guess that's related to why I don't think trusts should exist.
Twenty five times current annual expenses is predicated on expenses, after inflation, remaining the same, and an expected continued lifetime of no more than thirty years. It's important to take account of those realities and not to make blanket pronouncements, especially as advice to others. Each of we individuals, of course, are free to do as we please.

PJW

LiterallyIronic
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Wed May 22, 2019 4:52 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:29 pm
LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:02 pm
Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?
0. Immediately. You've got one life - live it.
1. As soon as I have 25x my annual expenses, which I believe will be a sum of $600,000, but I'll continually reevaluate as I age.
2. No. I want to bounce my last check. No point in being the richest guy in the cemetery.
3. No. When people say, "I want to leave a legacy," they really mean, "I want to leave some money." And I don't consider money to be legacy. Legacy is the memories you made. I guess that's related to why I don't think trusts should exist.
Twenty five times current annual expenses is predicated on expenses, after inflation, remaining the same, and an expected continued lifetime of no more than thirty years. It's important to take account of those realities and not to make blanket pronouncements, especially as advice to others. Each of we individuals, of course, are free to do as we please.

PJW
Answers to 1, 2, and 3, were not advice, nor blanket pronouncements. OP specifically said, "do you..." and I answered about me.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by willthrill81 » Wed May 22, 2019 5:04 pm

GmanJeff wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:56 pm
It sounds like she's asking why you counselled her to not touch the principal, and is not asking for advice on what to spend it on.

While there are potential advantages to not using principal, it's likely not necessary to be so Draconian unless there is a specific ambition to leave behind the principal upon her demise. In the interim, she will have spent less than she safely could have, with whatever implications that result will have had on her quality of life, ability to engage in philanthropy during her lifetime, and so on.
My thoughts are very similar to yours. The "never spend principal" advice is somewhat intuitive but can easily lead to unnecessary conservatism with regard to withdrawal strategies. It can also easily lead someone down the erroneous "buy only high dividend paying stocks so as to maximize income while preserving principal" path.
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by fourwheelcycle » Wed May 22, 2019 6:24 pm

Subject to unforeseen medical expenses or other emergent needs, I would spend no more than 3-4% of the principal per year for now.

I would plan to leave not less that half of the principal to charity, beginning now if I had a clear vision and plan, or beginning when I was older (than 30) at a time when I had developed a clear vision and plan.

I would leave not more than half of the principal to my children (if I were to have children) and other chosen heirs.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by rj342 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:22 pm

LiterallyIronic wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:02 pm
Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?
0. Immediately. You've got one life - live it.
1. As soon as I have 25x my annual expenses, which I believe will be a sum of $600,000, but I'll continually reevaluate as I age.
2. No. I want to bounce my last check. No point in being the richest guy in the cemetery.
3. No. When people say, "I want to leave a legacy," they really mean, "I want to leave some money." And I don't consider money to be legacy. Legacy is the memories you made. I guess that's related to why I don't think trusts should exist.
I really like some of tbe ideas in Die Broke. Assuming I get to point of having enough cushion for the long haul, I would much rather help my son and his future fami!y here and there while I am alive rather than after the point he is firmly established and Im dead.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by bayview » Wed May 22, 2019 9:21 pm

My husband and I (second marriage for each) have a reasonable expectation of future inheritances; only heir for each, very familiar with (acting as FPOA) each estate.

We each plan to use whatever we wind up with as a safety net for long-term care expenses, and all the rest for our separate sets of kids. We'll make sure to take care of one another in our wills. Otherwise, we have enough outside of possible inheritances to take care of day-to-day expenses plus the occasional new roof and furnace.

So although we might wind up taking a few more trips, realistically we are somewhat tied to home with our mothers in assisted living/ skilled nursing, so there are no chances of backpacking up Mt Kilimanjaro or anything similar.

It's pretty important to define what is "enough", and then to stop obsessively acquiring when that "enough" point has been reached.
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

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aspirit
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by aspirit » Wed May 22, 2019 10:59 pm

So some youngster relatively speaking is 30ish, unprepared for reality as having been coddled & provided every whim, and you or they think they have enough.

I've seen to many inheritances go awry, madly awry,.... way to many.
1) Never (or 100T)
2) yes
3) yes
Good luck with all that w/infinite unknowns the next 70-90ish yrs. :P

people are living longer....who knows?
Time & tides wait for no one. A man has to know his limitations. | "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" | — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild ~

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Watty
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Watty » Wed May 22, 2019 11:39 pm

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
How would you folks entertain this question?
Her situation has a lot in common with older people who have "enough" and can retire at anytime. Some people enjoy their work so they keep working long, other people retire and do things like travel, do hobbies, get involved in social causes, volunteer, work a part time "fun" job, or dozens of other things. There are lots of books, videos, and websites about adjusting to retirement that she might find useful.

One big difference for her though is that there will be fewer people her age that she can do things with during the day.

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by StealthRabbit » Thu May 23, 2019 12:47 am

"When do you eventually use this money?"
a Very different question than... "What to do when you have enough?...

for HER Question... based upon her relationship / intent of "gift-or"... (If of any relevance)
NOW and later...

"Significant sum" leads to the potential of endowment / sustainable gifting / perpetual use by a non-profit (or a trust fund baby).

Minimum... I would set up a family foundation or at least a DAF (Donor Advised fund) so some form of planned giving and benefit would endure.

This can also work to help taxation issues (if relevant)

Get a distribution set up, correct AA to meet donor intent, and arrange subsequent managers of fund. Live happily ever after.

Estate attorney or Trust Dept can iron this out.

"What to do when you have enough?.. answered many times over...
1) Never...
2) Only a 'little' more...
3) When I can realize all my dreams,
4) When I can help to realize the dreams of others...

for me... maybe when I can afford to buy a car with AC... (currently driving a $35 car for last 40 yrs... (works fine, for me)) Everyone is different. I always preferred to give away more than I spent on myself. Others will have different objectives / values / and results.

If I got an inheritance, I would give it all away, (I'm eating OK).
Besides... I already GOT my inheritance at age 18. My father had a serious stroke and I got HIM (for 30+ yrs and $100k+ in family debt to pay off.) I was making $1.50 / hr and needed to buy him a house to live in + care + pay off debt. It was a LONG and complicated process.
Last edited by StealthRabbit on Thu May 23, 2019 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Always passive
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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by Always passive » Thu May 23, 2019 12:56 am

Skyccord wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:33 pm
I had a very interesting conversation with a friend who's Dad recently passed away. She has inherited a huge lump sum of money and I was telling her how it's best not to touch the principal and live off the interest. She had a very good question that I want to ask everyone here. She asked, "When do you eventually use this money?"

How would you folks entertain this question?

EDITED on 05/21/2019 @ 9:50PM EST to add the following below

Alright everyone lets slow down here. She is NOT really asking me for advice. She has advisors that her Dad that left behind and I am not one of them. My question had nothing to do with what to do in her situation but my question for everyone was simply the following:

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?

I just mentioned my friends situation to bring the question up that she asked about but the question is about you.

In regards to my friend. She has no debt. She was Daddy's princess and Daddy gave her everything she ever wanted and then some while he was alive. She had a positive net worth before he went. Lastly she's 30 just for those of you that want to know and is married.
I have a client that has enough. We split the money into two buckets. A bucket that is managed to give him an annual income equivalent to our very generous estimates to live from. It is simply a TIPs ladder to year 100, plus 15% in equity ETFs, mostly VT. The second bucket, which we call it "children money" is invested in long term in a simple allocation: 50% VT (plus some emerging markets ETF - simply tilting the account towards this asset), and 50% intermediate term bond ETFs. We just let this second bucket grow, without touching it, no rebalancing yet. The money is in tax protected accounts so the children will end up worrying about tax consequences. Simple, right?

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Re: What to do when you have enough?

Post by kaudrey » Thu May 23, 2019 1:19 pm

1. When do YOU have enough?
2. Do you think about leaving money behind?
3. Do you think about having some legacy tied to your money?

1) We have "enough" now, and my DH is retired and I still work (I am younger than he is). Enough to me is that we can cover our expenses for a very long time with enough cushion that lots can happen and we'd still be OK. Second marriage for both of us, and we both brought a lot of savings into our "pot".

2) I don't have anyone who needs my money. I don't have any kids. My relatives have enough of their own money. My DH has kids, but he has put them all through college and helped most of them with their first homes, helped set up 529s for the grandkids etc. They are all doing fine. We'll leave them something, but they don't need it.

3) Yes. We are heavily involved with several organizations, and we will both leave money to them in some form. We are on the same page on that - and that will be our legacy.

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