FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

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lostdog
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by lostdog » Tue May 21, 2019 8:12 am

Some people link their self worth and status to their career and how hard they work. This is primarily happening to Americans. It's hard for some to retire because we've been conditioned to think this way. For some of us it's easier to make the transition and slowly recondition our minds but for others, it's not, hence the resentful and jealous comments.

I grew up around friends that bragged about how many hours they put in for the week. They would wear the busy badge of honor. It's just the way it is for some. Self worth equals hard work and busyness.

It might be rare for some to walk away from a job to spend time with family, friends and hobbies. They're afraid to lose the image and self worth.
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donaldfair71
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by donaldfair71 » Tue May 21, 2019 8:27 am

Sam1 wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:23 pm
visualguy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:15 pm
JeepDaze wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:33 pm
KandT wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:10 am
I guess they think there isn't any stress in low paying jobs but I would argue quite the reverse. Oddly, it seems low paying jobs frequently have lots of stress. It seems they need a class in stress management not a new job bagging groceries.

I am confused. :shock: :shock:
Low paying jobs are stressful for people who don't have a lot of money. For people who have a lot of money, there is little stress over getting laid off or making ends meet with a low paying job.
Right, but all the stress of doing those jobs is still there. I would probably last half a day and lay myself off.
They are jobs that require you to be on your feet almost the entire shift. That is HARD.
It's all relative, and what one prefers. I know people (myself included) who would quit the day they had to sit for more than, say, an hour during an 8 hour day. Would just get so, so bored.

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CyclingDuo
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by CyclingDuo » Tue May 21, 2019 8:41 am

EddyB wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:50 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:20 pm
renue74 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 3:10 pm
Why hate on these people?
Because most of them have zero social skills;) Seriously read MMM and think about what type of person walks around talking about punching people that make different lifestyle choices. And yes I know he largely does it as a technique for building page views and is probably a pleasant enough guy in real life.

FWIW I share the same level of hate for vegetarians, cross fitters, minimalists, people that don't own TVs or cars and who smoke pot religiously. Probably tiny house people also but I haven't met one of them. I am fine with all those activies. But it is beyond tiresome to hear about it constantly especially in conversations that aren't remotely related.:)
What about index-fund investors?
:mrgreen:

We could really juice the discussion and point out some of the FIRE blogs where folks are living totally off of dividends from their dividend paying stocks? :greedy
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

jdilla1107
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by jdilla1107 » Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 am

People here really don't get it. FIRE stands for "financial Independence, retire early". The financial independence part is just as important as the retire early part. If someone is FIRE at 35 it can mean they are financially independent now and planning to do a traditional retirement at 50.

People don't understand how impactful financial independence can be. Consider this example:

- Your corporation does something that really upsets you.
- You stress about it for weeks/months. It wears on you and you take some of the stress out on your family.

Is your state of mind:

- I could never leave this job. (You feel stuck by debt, pension, high salary.)

or

- I could go 5-10 years without any income and would likely find something else in a couple months anyway. You leave for a better situation and a happier life. Maybe you move across the country.

FIRE is a rejection of staying in the same miserable job for 30 years and looking forward to your "break" at 65. It's a rejection of high debt and high expense consumerism. It's about saying "I have enough" instead of "I could always have a little more".

Who cares if people still make some money while they are financially independent? The reason people get worked up over the word "retirement" is that they imagine retirement as a 10 year vacation before they die. That is what is being rejected. Take some of your retirement now if you can afford it. Work really hard from 25-40 to be financially independent so that the possibilities open up.

Corporate America gets harder when you get older and when you have kids. At 50 you are old news and are going to get passed over by some hotshot 35 year old on the way up. Save enough so you can tell off your boss and do something else.

I always laugh at the "retirement police" who find it acceptable to volunteer (work for free) in retirement, but who think you are not allowed to make money.
Last edited by jdilla1107 on Tue May 21, 2019 9:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

EnjoyIt
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by EnjoyIt » Tue May 21, 2019 9:03 am

Thesaints wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Old_Dollar wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tossing hate on a subset of the population that has saved over 30% of their income constantly in their 20s and 30s ...
Meaningless achievement. It is a lot better to save 5% on a 1M compensation than 50% on a 80k one. One will also have a more pleasurable time doing the former rather than the latter.
I think you are grossly mistaken. I see plenty of people making very high income, spending almost all of it and very very unhappy.

I think you are confusing spending with happiness. Once necessities are met, spending money does not buy happiness and there are plenty of studies that prove that. Decoupling the two is the mainstay of many early retirees which is why I think you are perplexed by them, scoff at them, and maybe even resent them.

Thesaints
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by Thesaints » Tue May 21, 2019 9:14 am

Let’s leave “happiness” to the realm of psychology and Oriental philosophies and stick to more financial concept.
I’m the first one to agree that if one doesn’t have to spend anything, they can retire at birth. Yet, that is very easy to achieve, therefore uninteresting. I mean the “retiring without having to spend” part, not the “living well without having to spend” one.
That said, until one is exposed to a wealthy lifestyle he/she doesn’t even know what they are missing.

Thesaints
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by Thesaints » Tue May 21, 2019 9:19 am

jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 am
I always laugh at the "retirement police" who find it acceptable to volunteer (work for free) in retirement, but who think you are not allowed to make money.
You are certainly allowed. The problems, from a financial point of view, begin when you have to at which point it is me the one who does most of the laughing.

jdilla1107
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by jdilla1107 » Tue May 21, 2019 9:30 am

Thesaints wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:19 am
jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 am
I always laugh at the "retirement police" who find it acceptable to volunteer (work for free) in retirement, but who think you are not allowed to make money.
You are certainly allowed. The problems, from a financial point of view, begin when you have to at which point it is me the one who does most of the laughing.
I'm not following. You like to laugh at old people who have to work because they made poor financial decisions?

My point on the "retirement police" is that "working for free" is worse for someone's financial situation than "working for money". The idea that you can't do work in retirement and just need to watch TV all day at the old-folks home is pretty old fashioned.

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CyclingDuo
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by CyclingDuo » Tue May 21, 2019 9:54 am

jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 am
Who cares if people still make some money while they are financially independent? The reason people get worked up over the word "retirement" is that they imagine retirement as a 10 year vacation before they die. That is what is being rejected. Take some of your retirement now if you can afford it. Work really hard from 25-40 to be financially independent so that the possibilities open up.
Some of us in education or performing arts who are in our mid to late 50's have already had the luxury of having had 11 years of vacation up to this point thanks to three months in the summer off and a month for the holidays/Spring Break combination. I just started the summer part for 2019, and the spouse will on June 2nd.

I guess we have been enjoying what you mention all along with the sputter version of on during the academic year, off for the summer to recharge, relax and vacate.

:sharebeer

CyclingDuo (Retired for a few months, back to work this Fall)
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randomguy
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by randomguy » Tue May 21, 2019 10:03 am

skime wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:18 am
People's insecurities definitely come out when it comes to people retiring early. If someone saves enough to retire early at any age and live anywhere they want and do anything they want, have kids or not have kids why would you care? There's certainly a lot of judgement being thrown around.

Unless they knock up your wife or steal your car with all of their newly found spare time, it doesn't impact you.

If their plan blows up, it still doesn't impact you. Although for some strange reason, it might make you feel better about your own situation.
Yep and it goes both ways. Think about how many of the FIRE crowd talks about things they can't afford because of their life choices so they try and label them as frivolous luxuries. In the end most of us have lifestyles we are happiest with and aren't willing to make the changes to go really outside of it. I am sure I could have retired at 25 by moving to Costa Rica. But I sure wasn't going to cut my lifestyle enough to do that.

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HomerJ
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by HomerJ » Tue May 21, 2019 10:25 am

Thesaints wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Old_Dollar wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tossing hate on a subset of the population that has saved over 30% of their income constantly in their 20s and 30s ...
Meaningless achievement. It is a lot better to save 5% on a 1M compensation than 50% on a 80k one. One will also have a more pleasurable time doing the former rather than the latter.
Hmm... I see a trainwreck in the future for the 1M person. HUGE lifestyle change when they can no longer make 1M a year.

I agree the years where they are making and spending almost all of the 1M are pretty fun, but I forsee some serious unhappiness for the second half of their life.
The J stands for Jay

randomguy
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by randomguy » Tue May 21, 2019 10:26 am

EddyB wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:07 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:52 pm
batpot wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 4:49 pm
If you met an Atheist, Vegan, Cross fitter, FIRE'd, Tiny Houser, at a Boglehead Party, which would they tell you they are first?
Probably that they are gluten free😂

Seriously all the questioning of FIRE is the minimalist spending end. Nobody questions the 20 something with 10 million+ who says they are retiring. Some of the minimal end is objections to having other people pay for you(sticking your kids on Medicaid). Others is just wanting to spend more money. The FIRE people seem to think it is all BMWs that you will not miss. In my world it is violin lessons and soccer practice. Could live without them but life would be a lot less enjoyable
Violin lessons and soccer practice for your kids, or for yourself?
What difference does it make? In the end you are spending money. You might think certain things are more virtuous than others but in general they aren't. If I get the same enjoyment out of spending 10k racing cars that you get on spending 10k on trips, it doesn't mater. I know I could live on 20k/year. I also know that at that level of spending, money dominates your life (you need to account for pretty much every dollar). I know at spending 80k/year, for me money plays just about no role (i.e. I can afford everything I want without thinking about it. No I can't just get a 911 turbo but I also don't really want one.)

I must admit that I would be really curious to see how many of the lean FIRE people can do it for 30 years. Especially the ones that can afford more. Take MMM. After a couple of years, the guy decided to buy a 35k car cause he wanted a new car. And we have already had a blog post about wanting a tesla:) Want to bet in another 10 years he decides to just spend 5k on the vacation instead of trying to say it was free because he worked a week in barter? It will also be interesting to see how random things (i.e. what does a divorce do when you don't have a website bringing in mid 6 figures? What about when you kid gets an autism diagnosis?...) mess up the plans and how the stressful the next financial crisis (again if you are living off your blog it is one thing. If you are living off your assets it is another) is.

Of course I also like following van life, some people living in thailand, the guy trying to be a progolfer by putting in 10k of practice, and some other blogs of people doing random life choices that I am unlikely to ever do. They are all things that sound fun (well maybe not with kids:)) ways to spend a couple of years.

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HomerJ
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by HomerJ » Tue May 21, 2019 10:31 am

jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:30 am
Thesaints wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:19 am
jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 am
I always laugh at the "retirement police" who find it acceptable to volunteer (work for free) in retirement, but who think you are not allowed to make money.
You are certainly allowed. The problems, from a financial point of view, begin when you have to at which point it is me the one who does most of the laughing.
I'm not following. You like to laugh at old people who have to work because they made poor financial decisions?

My point on the "retirement police" is that "working for free" is worse for someone's financial situation than "working for money". The idea that you can't do work in retirement and just need to watch TV all day at the old-folks home is pretty old fashioned.
No one here says that.

Nothing wrong with making money while retired.

If you work to help pay essential bills, you're not financially independent yet, and you're not retired. You might be close. You might have enough that you could quit your full-time job you hated, and get a part-time job you love. That's great. That's wonderful. That's not "retired".

Now, if you don't need to work but you work for fun, and make a little money on the side for some extra stuff, sure all good. You can call yourself retired.
The J stands for Jay

scrabbler1
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by scrabbler1 » Tue May 21, 2019 11:13 am

scottinmet wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:49 pm
scrabbler1 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 4:49 pm
Sam1 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:13 pm
Meaty wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:03 pm
lostdog wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:00 pm


Child free was the best decision we've ever made and we have zero regret. We do enjoy our nieces and nephews but at the end of the day the parents can have them back.
Fair enough - it’s not for everybody. I can just understand a Luke warm reaction when explaining (in my quotes thread) part of FIRE was being child free. Most don’t take that route and wouldn’t be able to relate
It’s like someone telling you they go out to restaurants but only spend $3. You ask how and they tell you they only order a soda. Most people don’t want to give up eating when at a restaurant to save some money.
Terrible analogy. You are trying to portray childfree people as being somehow incomplete, the way a soda is an incomplete part of an overall meal. Childfree people are NOT incomplete. I would instead compare it to going to a car dealer and buying only a low-end, cheaper small car instead of some huge-ass, costly SUV. Both are vehicles to get you safely from Point A to Point B, but the small car doesn't require a huge outlay of money compared to the SUV.
When I was talking (in jest) about starting a blog, I was more interested in how you maintained your portfolio after you retired. I know the stock market has been good in the last 10 years, but retiring at such an early age with that amount must have required some planning up front and then paying careful attention to your finances over the years. You are trying to glide to age 60 and to SS age when additional reinforcements arrive, that was in my estimation a leap of faith, especially starting soon after the 08 crash. That's what I find interesting because not many people did that.
There was no "leap of faith" in my retirement planning whatsoever. Between my own spreadsheets and Fidelity's RIP program, I knew I was in good shape to move forward. In fact, the market downturn in 2008 actually helped me out a lot by giving me a boost to start my retirement. This was because I was able to buy 20-25% more shares of a big bond fund at rock-bottom prices, something I have benefited from every month for the last 11 years.

Yes, market gains have made things easier than they would have been, even though I would have been fine without them. The ACA has been a bigger help to me than the market gains because it kept health insurance affordable.
Last edited by scrabbler1 on Tue May 21, 2019 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thesaints
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by Thesaints » Tue May 21, 2019 11:13 am

jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:30 am
Thesaints wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:19 am
jdilla1107 wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 am
I always laugh at the "retirement police" who find it acceptable to volunteer (work for free) in retirement, but who think you are not allowed to make money.
You are certainly allowed. The problems, from a financial point of view, begin when you have to at which point it is me the one who does most of the laughing.
I'm not following. You like to laugh at old people who have to work because they made poor financial decisions?

My point on the "retirement police" is that "working for free" is worse for someone's financial situation than "working for money". The idea that you can't do work in retirement and just need to watch TV all day at the old-folks home is pretty old fashioned.
No. I laugh at young people who thought they could retire on an insufficient capital assuming that simply “appreciating the inexpensive things in life” could pull them through many decades without an earned income.
Already some are rgeretting their choice, as we can read in the chronicles.

Thesaints
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by Thesaints » Tue May 21, 2019 11:17 am

HomerJ wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:25 am
Thesaints wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Old_Dollar wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tossing hate on a subset of the population that has saved over 30% of their income constantly in their 20s and 30s ...
Meaningless achievement. It is a lot better to save 5% on a 1M compensation than 50% on a 80k one. One will also have a more pleasurable time doing the former rather than the latter.
Hmm... I see a trainwreck in the future for the 1M person. HUGE lifestyle change when they can no longer make 1M a year.

I agree the years where they are making and spending almost all of the 1M are pretty fun, but I forsee some serious unhappiness for the second half of their life.
The trainwreck may come or not and it depends on expenses, not on income. It is singular that someone making 1M and saving 5% (50k/yr.) should be worse off than someone making 80k and saving 50% (40k/yr). It makes no sense at all.
In financial terms more money is always better than less money.

sailaway
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by sailaway » Tue May 21, 2019 11:27 am

Thesaints wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:17 am
HomerJ wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:25 am
Thesaints wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Old_Dollar wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tossing hate on a subset of the population that has saved over 30% of their income constantly in their 20s and 30s ...
Meaningless achievement. It is a lot better to save 5% on a 1M compensation than 50% on a 80k one. One will also have a more pleasurable time doing the former rather than the latter.
Hmm... I see a trainwreck in the future for the 1M person. HUGE lifestyle change when they can no longer make 1M a year.

I agree the years where they are making and spending almost all of the 1M are pretty fun, but I forsee some serious unhappiness for the second half of their life.
The trainwreck may come or not and it depends on expenses, not on income. It is singular that someone making 1M and saving 5% (50k/yr.) should be worse off than someone making 80k and saving 50% (40k/yr). It makes no sense at all.
In financial terms more money is always better than less money.
You are contradicting yourself. More money than expenses is always good, more money in and of itself is not always good enough.

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AerialWombat
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by AerialWombat » Tue May 21, 2019 11:29 am

Let’s see if this incites a riot: If I’m FI based on *my* standard of living, but continue to receive distributions I don’t need from a business operated by co-founders and employees, and continue operating my other business via the 4-Hour Work Week model just for fun, am I or am I not “retired”?

I say retired.
“Life doesn’t come with a warranty.” -Michael LeBoeuf

EddyB
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by EddyB » Tue May 21, 2019 11:30 am

randomguy wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:03 am
skime wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:18 am
People's insecurities definitely come out when it comes to people retiring early. If someone saves enough to retire early at any age and live anywhere they want and do anything they want, have kids or not have kids why would you care? There's certainly a lot of judgement being thrown around.

Unless they knock up your wife or steal your car with all of their newly found spare time, it doesn't impact you.

If their plan blows up, it still doesn't impact you. Although for some strange reason, it might make you feel better about your own situation.
Yep and it goes both ways. Think about how many of the FIRE crowd talks about things they can't afford because of their life choices so they try and label them as frivolous luxuries.
I work and make a lot of money, but I think of many purchases I see discussed on this site (and even some of my own purchases) as frivolous luxuries, so I don’t see the FIRE advocates as obviously wrong on that point. Being willing to recognize that, either way, seems significant, in my opinion. I disagree with your “both ways” portrayal, because (generally speaking) I see the FIRE advocates as recognizing the luxury and deciding they (personally) don’t need it, while many of the outspoken critics act like anyone who rejects the critic’s own choices is a fool.

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DanMahowny
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by DanMahowny » Tue May 21, 2019 11:33 am

AerialWombat wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:29 am
Let’s see if this incites a riot: If I’m FI based on *my* standard of living, but continue to receive distributions I don’t need from a business operated by co-founders and employees, and continue operating my other business via the 4-Hour Work Week model just for fun, am I or am I not “retired”?

I say retired.
I say retired, or perhaps semi-retired, but who cares- you are winning.
Funding secured

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HomerJ
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by HomerJ » Tue May 21, 2019 11:41 am

Thesaints wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:17 am
HomerJ wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:25 am
Thesaints wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:54 pm
Old_Dollar wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tossing hate on a subset of the population that has saved over 30% of their income constantly in their 20s and 30s ...
Meaningless achievement. It is a lot better to save 5% on a 1M compensation than 50% on a 80k one. One will also have a more pleasurable time doing the former rather than the latter.
Hmm... I see a trainwreck in the future for the 1M person. HUGE lifestyle change when they can no longer make 1M a year.

I agree the years where they are making and spending almost all of the 1M are pretty fun, but I forsee some serious unhappiness for the second half of their life.
The trainwreck may come or not and it depends on expenses, not on income. It is singular that someone making 1M and saving 5% (50k/yr.) should be worse off than someone making 80k and saving 50% (40k/yr). It makes no sense at all.
In financial terms more money is always better than less money.
If they are saving only 5% (50k/year), that means they are spending $950,000 a year (OK, $500,000 after taxes).

So, yes I was talking about their expenses.

And there will be a huge shock when that income disappears and they suddenly have to live on $50k a year, 10% of what they were used to spending.
The J stands for Jay

jdilla1107
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by jdilla1107 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:06 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:31 am
If you work to help pay essential bills, you're not financially independent yet, and you're not retired. You might be close. You might have enough that you could quit your full-time job you hated, and get a part-time job you love. That's great. That's wonderful. That's not "retired".

Now, if you don't need to work but you work for fun, and make a little money on the side for some extra stuff, sure all good. You can call yourself retired.
I can't argue with the retirement police, but realize the following words you used are entirely subjective:

- A little money on the side
- essential bills
- part-time job
- work for fun

People can have wildly different views of what these things mean. These sorts of things are why people can't understand each other's perspective.
Last edited by jdilla1107 on Tue May 21, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Random Poster
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by Random Poster » Tue May 21, 2019 12:07 pm

CyclingDuo wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 8:07 pm
Image
The daily spending numbers are far too high for my comfort zone, particularly for someone under the age of, say, 55.

Seems like it would be better to have a portfolio one category above the spending one, or at least 5 levels above the spending amounts.

So for a $50k spend, you should have at least a $2.5M portfolio; for a $70K spend, have $3M, and so on.

Thus, you'd have a Fat Fire portfolio, but a (regular) Fire lifestyle.

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Misenplace
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Re: FIRE - What am I missing in the News Stories

Post by Misenplace » Tue May 21, 2019 12:20 pm

This topic has run its course and is locked. The OP original question has been thoroughly discussed and the discussion became derailed.

Moderator Misenplace

Locked