Reservations about job offer

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Topic Author
Eurookat
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Reservations about job offer

Post by Eurookat » Thu May 16, 2019 6:41 am

I interviewed and got an offer for a lead tech position. During the interview process the hiring manager set expectations by saying that he didn't want to give me the title until the guys on the team can trust me. He even stated right before we parted ways that he wants me to come in and not act like a lead. It's important for him that they trust me.

I got the offer letter yesterday and sure enough the title doesn't have the word senior or lead. When I asked they said that's the title we agreed upon and I said the job description and post has the word lead. My dilemma is coming in as a peer and not have them respect me. They know I'm coming in as a lead with the assumption that I would become their boss.

I'm torn because I've been looking to get into management and this seems like the perfect fit with the caveat that I can't get what I interviewed for until a later time.

Do I walk away?

Billius
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Billius » Thu May 16, 2019 6:57 am

I wouldn't trust future promises of a title change or wage increases from any employer. If you come on without the title you want, they'll give it to you when (if ever) it's convenient for them to do so. Your performance, or how well you get along with the team, will be a secondary factor. The fact that you interviewed for a leadership position and they're reneging right before hiring you doesn't bode well. If it were me, I'd wait for another opportunity.

**edit** Or, you know, make the opportunity. There of employers out there and the economy is good right now. People are hiring.

yohac
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by yohac » Thu May 16, 2019 7:01 am

"until the guys on the team can trust me"

So whether you get the lead position or not is totally subjective. No way would I accept condition like that.

Swansea
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Swansea » Thu May 16, 2019 7:02 am

I've offered hundreds of jobs to folks, but never made an offer quite like this. Time you should look for another opportunity.

OnTrack2020
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by OnTrack2020 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:06 am

I would run, not walk away. Sorry, this is just too shady.

bampf
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by bampf » Thu May 16, 2019 7:06 am

You interviewed for a lead role. They declined to hire you for a lead role. What's the question?

Ron
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Ron » Thu May 16, 2019 7:09 am

I hate to quote a movie, but this passage has served me well over the years:

"When there is doubt, there is no doubt" (Ronin - 1998)

"Whenever there is any doubt" refers to the fact that something spooked him. He might not even be aware of the detail of what it was, but it was based on experience and instinct. When he feels that tug of insecurity, he knows something is wrong. There is no doubt about it.

Trust your instincts. Trust your fear and use it. That is what this means in the context of the film.

Unless it's in writing, I would not base my future on a simple utterance during an interview. People say things in the moment that are often forgotten after the conversation is ended. Also, consider the fact that the person who made you this "promise" may not be around in the future to ensure it happens as discussed.

FWIW,

- Ron

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midareff
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by midareff » Thu May 16, 2019 7:24 am

Lead tech and leader of Seal Team 6 in combat require trust in a different manner. I too see this as a renege prior to hire. Title and money or no deal AFAIC.

scout80
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by scout80 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:35 am

wow - It sounds like a government job - if they want you then get them to put the Lead back into the title but this kind of thing is a huge red flag that signals poor management and lack of transparency. Likely they told the "team" one thing but advertised another and are trying to cover both. If "lead" was contingent on success on the team they should have made it probationary or some kind of stepwise process...You are stepping into a big trust issue if you take this job.

HomeStretch
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by HomeStretch » Thu May 16, 2019 7:38 am

It is odd that the company posted the position as a “lead” but won’t offer you the position as such.

The only thing I can think of (aside from a “bait and switch”) is that you do not have prior experience in a “lead” position and the company wants to evaluate your job performance before deciding whether to “promote” you, if ever. They may also have internal department candidates who applied for the promotion and anticipate some department morale issues by hiring someone as a lead without lead experience from the outside rather than promoting from within.

In either case, if it were me, I would push back to say no unless it’s a lead position title/salary or pass on the opportunity.
Last edited by HomeStretch on Thu May 16, 2019 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

fabdog
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by fabdog » Thu May 16, 2019 7:48 am

another possibility... poor manager who has internal folks that think they are ready to be a lead, but he doesn't think so. So looking outside

But not willing to rock the boat by hiring a "lead" and giving the internal folks something to fuss at him/her about, especially if they don't like the new lead or some other issue comes up

Then if you come in and wow them... you're the lead... if you don't you aren't... but the person making that call already shows they aren't willing to take a stand and make a clear decision...

Walk Away... there are lots of other opportunities out there

Mike

Topic Author
Eurookat
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Eurookat » Thu May 16, 2019 7:53 am

HomeStretch wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:38 am
They may also have internal department candidates who applied for the promotion and anticipate some department morale issues by hiring someone as a lead without lead experience from the outside rather than promoting from within.

In either case, if it were me, I would push back to say no unless it’s a lead position title/salary or pass on the opportunity.
This. And I have lead experience which is why they brought me in for the interview. Two guys on the team expressed being lead but they don't have the experience.

dbr
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by dbr » Thu May 16, 2019 8:00 am

You already know you can't trust your prospective boss.

Unicorn1
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Unicorn1 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:05 am

You interviewed for a lead tech position. You seem to be under the impression that you were offered a lead tech position, just not with the formal title attached to it. You were actually offered a non-lead tech position. The rest is noise and with no guarantees of future promotion.

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by TheOscarGuy » Thu May 16, 2019 8:08 am

Eurookat wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:41 am
I interviewed and got an offer for a lead tech position. During the interview process the hiring manager set expectations by saying that he didn't want to give me the title until the guys on the team can trust me. He even stated right before we parted ways that he wants me to come in and not act like a lead. It's important for him that they trust me.

I got the offer letter yesterday and sure enough the title doesn't have the word senior or lead. When I asked they said that's the title we agreed upon and I said the job description and post has the word lead. My dilemma is coming in as a peer and not have them respect me. They know I'm coming in as a lead with the assumption that I would become their boss.

I'm torn because I've been looking to get into management and this seems like the perfect fit with the caveat that I can't get what I interviewed for until a later time.

Do I walk away?
I would.
I see the Hiring Manager's point. However, he needs to realize that this is a bad tactic -- why not just say in the posting, this is a senior position with an understanding that eventually person will take over as a lead. But keep the title same.
There is nothing preventing them from just saying 'we were hoping for someone to take over, and you haven't really done that to the extent we thought you would'. Walk away.

fru-gal
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by fru-gal » Thu May 16, 2019 8:11 am

Eurookat wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:53 am
And I have lead experience which is why they brought me in for the interview. Two guys on the team expressed being lead but they don't have the experience.
Run far away.

DarkHelmetII
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by DarkHelmetII » Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 am

I might be in the minority here, for better or for worse I have grown to not pay much attention to job titles. There's just so much variability as to when a VP is a "real" VP; the difference between a sales engineer and solution architect and so on... I look at three things: a) money / benefits package, b) quality of life, and c) is the job intellectually stimulating. I find a lot of other things are noise.

What bothers me about this situation is not the job title itself, but exactly *why* there was this last minute change; however there will always be some kind of a reason they can (and in this case have) cook up. But that is why I believe points a - c above are important, because there is a lot of noise, that for me, is just noise, if I find a - c satisfactory.

My 2 cents ....

dbr
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by dbr » Thu May 16, 2019 8:34 am

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 am
I might be in the minority here, for better or for worse I have grown to not pay much attention to job titles. There's just so much variability as to when a VP is a "real" VP; the difference between a sales engineer and solution architect and so on... I look at three things: a) money / benefits package, b) quality of life, and c) is the job intellectually stimulating. I find a lot of other things are noise.

What bothers me about this situation is not the job title itself, but exactly *why* there was this last minute change; however there will always be some kind of a reason they can (and in this case have) cook up. But that is why I believe points a - c above are important, because there is a lot of noise, that for me, is just noise, if I find a - c satisfactory.

My 2 cents ....
Actually what is completely missing from the discussion is what is the job description. If this person is being hired with the same job description as the other people in the group then the manager has reneged.

Topic Author
Eurookat
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Eurookat » Thu May 16, 2019 8:49 am

dbr wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:34 am
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:29 am
I might be in the minority here, for better or for worse I have grown to not pay much attention to job titles. There's just so much variability as to when a VP is a "real" VP; the difference between a sales engineer and solution architect and so on... I look at three things: a) money / benefits package, b) quality of life, and c) is the job intellectually stimulating. I find a lot of other things are noise.

What bothers me about this situation is not the job title itself, but exactly *why* there was this last minute change; however there will always be some kind of a reason they can (and in this case have) cook up. But that is why I believe points a - c above are important, because there is a lot of noise, that for me, is just noise, if I find a - c satisfactory.

My 2 cents ....
Actually what is completely missing from the discussion is what is the job description. If this person is being hired with the same job description as the other people in the group then the manager has reneged.
Job description clearly says leading team. Not getting the title and acting as a peer from the onset is what I'm bothered by.

Murgatroyd
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Murgatroyd » Thu May 16, 2019 8:50 am

I experienced this exact situation. Position was CEO of a closely held company. The current wanted to retire and I was recommended by a former boss of mine. During the visit he openly explained there was a competition for replacement and none of the existing people were qualifying. So he wanted me to come in and build consensus around my capabilities for a year or so before announcing my promotion.

I said I was not willing to bet my career on a what if scenario. At the time I was in a situation where a lot of politicking and back stabbing was occurring so it was easy for me to imagine being undercut by the others. Ultimately no one was ever hired/ promoted and the company was sold.

Unless you believe this position is still a step up then I would suggest you keep looking.

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Raymond
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Raymond » Thu May 16, 2019 9:00 am

Eurookat wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:53 am
HomeStretch wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:38 am
They may also have internal department candidates who applied for the promotion and anticipate some department morale issues by hiring someone as a lead without lead experience from the outside rather than promoting from within.

In either case, if it were me, I would push back to say no unless it’s a lead position title/salary or pass on the opportunity.
This. And I have lead experience which is why they brought me in for the interview. Two guys on the team expressed being lead but they don't have the experience.
I think it is quite likely that one or both of these guys might suddenly decide to have "trust issues" with you after you start.

My response would be, "Thanks, but no thanks. Next, please!"
"Ritter, Tod und Teufel"

IntangibleAssets
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by IntangibleAssets » Thu May 16, 2019 9:16 am

If 2 persons on the team were actively competing for the job offer you are contemplating, they will likely feel resentment at a newcomer, that will be something you would have to overcome.

Also you specifically stated you want to get into management, the job they are offering you at present does not sound like management?

Are they asking you to come in and work as part of the team and not lead them from day one?

What other factors are we missing as to why this is still on the table? QOL? Pay bump of 20%?

Edit: What happens if they don't "trust" you??
Last edited by IntangibleAssets on Thu May 16, 2019 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

ohai
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by ohai » Thu May 16, 2019 9:18 am

Agree, don't trust that you'll be promoted later. It's much harder to move you down than to not move you up in the organization.

I'd offer to interview with the team members also to see if they can work under you. Otherwise, be prepared to say you want to be the boss or not take the offer. The guy's response might reveal information on the true situation.

doon
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by doon » Thu May 16, 2019 9:27 am

OP - I will come at it a bit differently.

I had a something similar happen to me in my previous life. I was offered the title and grade but no team reporting to me at the start commensurate with title and grade. The manager echoed similar thoughts that "does not want to rock the boat" yada yada....

The promise was that the team reporting to me thing will happen in 3-6 months. I was a bit skeptical as it would have been a step down for me.

But in my case the decision was easy because I knew the place from before and I had worked in the same group as consultant before. In the end it all worked out. I was made a lead with team reporting to me etc.

So I would suggest couple of thing:

How was your comfort level with other things regarding the offer, interview, people etc.?
Request a 30 minute chat with manager and confront this issue headon and see how the manager answers.
Assess if this is a step up from your previous job?
May be compromise....take the money and lead title but with no people reporting to you.

Hope this helps.
"Goal - Win the game before the need to retire"

mmmodem
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by mmmodem » Thu May 16, 2019 9:32 am

bampf wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:06 am
You interviewed for a lead role. They declined to hire you for a lead role. What's the question?
+1

It sounds like there is some limiting issue with your qualifications or experience and at least one person doesn't think you're a good lead. However, there's enough support for you that they want you as an employee.

I usually ignore promises of future promotion or bonus or salary increase. I would demand the lead or senior title be included based on what they told you. If they still refused, I would look at the offer as it stands. As stated above, I don't see anything nefarious going on. They want to hire you. They want you to be lead. You just haven't proven you're capable to lead to them.

Trader Joe
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Trader Joe » Thu May 16, 2019 9:34 am

Eurookat wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:41 am
I interviewed and got an offer for a lead tech position. During the interview process the hiring manager set expectations by saying that he didn't want to give me the title until the guys on the team can trust me. He even stated right before we parted ways that he wants me to come in and not act like a lead. It's important for him that they trust me.

I got the offer letter yesterday and sure enough the title doesn't have the word senior or lead. When I asked they said that's the title we agreed upon and I said the job description and post has the word lead. My dilemma is coming in as a peer and not have them respect me. They know I'm coming in as a lead with the assumption that I would become their boss.

I'm torn because I've been looking to get into management and this seems like the perfect fit with the caveat that I can't get what I interviewed for until a later time.

Do I walk away?
Walk away. Never accept promises.

rantk81
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by rantk81 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:36 am

Run away. I wouldn't even pursue it if they now agreed to change the title. The problem isn't whether they can trust you -- the problem is now that you absolutely cannot trust them.

KandT
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by KandT » Thu May 16, 2019 10:14 am

Sounds like they are saying "Come into this hornets nest where people want the job that we are hiring you for and before we give you the job and our support convince them that you are better than them for the job they want."

Sounds like one heck of a loser is leading this division with all the guts of a mouse.

KandT
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by KandT » Thu May 16, 2019 10:15 am

Sounds like they are saying "Come into this hornets nest where people want the job that we are hiring you for and before we give you the job and our support convince them that you are better than them for the job they want."

Sounds like one heck of a loser is leading this division with all the guts of a mouse. If you take it just resign to the fact that you aren't going to be the lead and prepare for the team to hate you immediately. if you have to take it keep looking.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu May 16, 2019 10:34 am

If the money's there, who cares?

I was titled Lead Technologist for a specific technology for a multi billion dollar company. They came to me and said they were splitting the position (project manager plus individual contributor) into an actual manager position plus an individual contributor position. No money change. I passed on the manager job and keep the technical position with the new title Principal Engineer. Had they instead offered the job choice as Exhaulted Grand Pubah Wonderful Managing King Person vs Lowly Engineer, I'd have gone the same way. I'll add that if they offered me the same engineering job with the title "Sewer mechanic" with a 50% pay increase, guess what? I'd be a Sewer mechanic.
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MotoTrojan
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 16, 2019 10:37 am

Was the compensation what you had expected? Do you have an idea of what a true lead would make (or what the non-leads do)?

If you really like the opportunity otherwise and had a fair offer, I might say you are willing to hold off on the title change but want a 10% increase in compensation now to offset that risk.

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sunny_socal
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by sunny_socal » Thu May 16, 2019 10:44 am

I've had to learn the hard way not to accept a position where the expectations/requirements are opaque.

My current job:
- Interview focused on past experience and skills, leading me to think the new job was similar
- Company couldn't talk about the details of the position because it was "secret"
- Upon joining, there was no role whatsoever beyond a generic designer that could be plugged into the next project
- Actual work is very easy, I wouldn't even give it to a new grad, intern or a consultant
- I have interviewed new candidates but I'm never told what project these people are slated for. "Interview for skills only", I'm told

I'm stuck here since I signed a contract that includes paying back my relo cost if I leave within two years, but once that time is up I'm out of here.

sambb
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by sambb » Thu May 16, 2019 10:47 am

They probably have an internal person, who desired the job, and may leave if someone is hired. They dont want to deal with the drama. So they are placing it on you.
I would decline

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samsoes
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by samsoes » Thu May 16, 2019 10:58 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:34 am
If the money's there, who cares?

I was titled Lead Technologist for a specific technology for a multi billion dollar company. They came to me and said they were splitting the position (project manager plus individual contributor) into an actual manager position plus an individual contributor position. No money change. I passed on the manager job and keep the technical position with the new title Principal Engineer. Had they instead offered the job choice as Exhaulted Grand Pubah Wonderful Managing King Person vs Lowly Engineer, I'd have gone the same way. I'll add that if they offered me the same engineering job with the title "Sewer mechanic" with a 50% pay increase, guess what? I'd be a Sewer mechanic.
Agree wholeheartedly. We work to make money. We trade our time and talent for cash, period. If you're getting the money you want, what's a title gonna get you?
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

IntangibleAssets
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by IntangibleAssets » Thu May 16, 2019 11:09 am

samsoes wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:58 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:34 am
If the money's there, who cares?

I was titled Lead Technologist for a specific technology for a multi billion dollar company. They came to me and said they were splitting the position (project manager plus individual contributor) into an actual manager position plus an individual contributor position. No money change. I passed on the manager job and keep the technical position with the new title Principal Engineer. Had they instead offered the job choice as Exhaulted Grand Pubah Wonderful Managing King Person vs Lowly Engineer, I'd have gone the same way. I'll add that if they offered me the same engineering job with the title "Sewer mechanic" with a 50% pay increase, guess what? I'd be a Sewer mechanic.
Agree wholeheartedly. We work to make money. We trade our time and talent for cash, period. If you're getting the money you want, what's a title gonna get you?
This sounds like a much different conversation than what the OP is facing and possible that's not the same offer extended to them, the way it's framed now the OP's potential employer has been somewhat vague bordering on disingenuous. I think most of us would be ok with less responsibility and a 50% pay increase :beer

miamivice
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by miamivice » Thu May 16, 2019 11:13 am

I haven't read all of the posts, but from my perspective:

Yes, your team will have to trust you. Leading is not about holding a title. It's about personality, style, technical knowledge, etc. If you are lead material, you have lead knowledge, and are a leader, you'll quickly become the group lead by default. I wouldn't worry about the title.

What about the money? Are you happy with the money?

Cody6136
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Cody6136 » Thu May 16, 2019 11:15 am

Ron wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:09 am
I hate to quote a movie, but this passage has served me well over the years:

"When there is doubt, there is no doubt" (Ronin - 1998)

"Whenever there is any doubt" refers to the fact that something spooked him. He might not even be aware of the detail of what it was, but it was based on experience and instinct. When he feels that tug of insecurity, he knows something is wrong. There is no doubt about it.

Trust your instincts. Trust your fear and use it. That is what this means in the context of the film.

Unless it's in writing, I would not base my future on a simple utterance during an interview. People say things in the moment that are often forgotten after the conversation is ended. Also, consider the fact that the person who made you this "promise" may not be around in the future to ensure it happens as discussed.

FWIW,

- Ron
I hate to quote from Oprah (even more!) but she said, "When you first meet someone they will tell and show you exactly who they are and in most cases you won't listen or see. You'll have to find out."

There's something better out there for you.

rj342
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by rj342 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:00 pm

Run away is safest. Only way to consider it is maybe if yo know they will be giving you most of the extra pay that would come with the formal tech lead position.

Worse than simply not getting the lead slot up front is not getting it BUT being expected to do that role anyway, without mgt actually backing you.

I've been burned by a related situation where I was previously employed (I'm a software engineer who's always had a foot in the bus analyst side too). I'd been long established go to guy for a major B2B integration project bringing in $$ (healthcare financials), for the most part usually solo because a) they were cheap, pulled others involved early on to other projects and b) I was actually able to DO it all -- and customer/partner "loved" me.
They decide to create a Scrum team around me. New CFO of all people brought in an Agile consultant his prev corp had used, top down cookie cutter one size fits all 'process' imposed from above. They parachute in a couple other programmers, and a 'Product Owner' and Scrum Master, neither of whom know anything about the business, the project, or customer (whom I'd successfully dealt with directly for years).
So from having had genuine collaboration, we go to a glorified committee, where everyone is 'equal'. Other know-nothing people have what sound like leadership titles, and I am explicitly denied any particularly authority, much less an actual 'tech lead' or similar title (because that's they way all the other teams are done.) And PO actively resents me since the other company usually want to talk to me, so she starts a backstabbing campaign. YET I AM STILL UNOFFICIALLY EXPECTED TO MAKE EVERYTHING WORK IN SPITE OF ALL THIS. And no win-win career path w role change in reward for playing the game near term. Nothing. A few people in similar positions to varying degrees elsewhere in Product Engineering quit.
Health suffered and I ended up getting myself fired -- rocked the boat too hard and more C-suite changes meant people in charge who didn't actually know any of the history. I should have changed jobs on my own sooner, but this not a big tech area and cannot move due to multiple family reasons, so tried to fight it to no avail. And the skills I have in learning and implementing complex business logic don't seem to be real marketable in remote work where focus seems to be on commodity tools expertise.

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Psyayeayeduck
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Psyayeayeduck » Thu May 16, 2019 12:05 pm

You went in to be interviewed for a lead position that should come with a lead position title (and the benefits that come with it). Anything short of that is a disservice to you and your career.

Quirkz
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Quirkz » Thu May 16, 2019 12:10 pm

IntangibleAssets wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:09 am
samsoes wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:58 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:34 am
If the money's there, who cares?
Agree wholeheartedly. We work to make money. We trade our time and talent for cash, period. If you're getting the money you want, what's a title gonna get you?
This sounds like a much different conversation than what the OP is facing and possible that's not the same offer extended to them, the way it's framed now the OP's potential employer has been somewhat vague bordering on disingenuous. I think most of us would be ok with less responsibility and a 50% pay increase :beer
It's very unclear to me if the problem with the offer is just the title, or also the compensation that is being reduced/delayed. It would be nice if the OP clarified.

If it is *only* the title that they're waffling over, and the compensation and other parts of the job are the same, I'd be inclined to take the job, but after first having a conversation that puts quantifiable (S.M.A.R.T.) metrics around what it'll take to get the title amended in due time.

If they are shorting you both title and pay/benefits in the interim and expecting you to trust them to make both up to you later, I would flat-out walk away.

Barsoom
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Barsoom » Thu May 16, 2019 12:12 pm

Eurookat wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 6:41 am
...the hiring manager set expectations by saying that he didn't want to give me the title until the guys on the team can trust me... It's important for him that they trust me.
This may always be the case when an organization hires a leader from outside. Inside workers will always wonder why they couldn't fill the position from within, and hold some grudge against the outsider who jumps the pecking order.

You can't do anything about that, but I wonder why the hiring manager isn't already aware of this. If he's going outside to fill a lead role, then he should just do it and manage team behaviors afterwards.

I'd either get confirmation that this is still a lead role or not, and/or just walk away.

-B

Dottie57
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Dottie57 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:15 pm

OnTrack2020 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:06 am
I would run, not walk away. Sorry, this is just too shady.
This. The offer is unacceptable.

LawProf
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by LawProf » Thu May 16, 2019 12:16 pm

If you really want to take the job despite your reservations, negotiate harder: (1) require more money upfront and (2) require some type of compensation payment if you don't get the title within a certain point in time.

MittensMoney
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by MittensMoney » Thu May 16, 2019 12:19 pm

Seems like a pretty big red flag to me. The team not inherently trusting the person selected to come and lead them indicates they don't trust (or respect) senior leadership. That would be a persistent cultural issue. Just my 2 cents.

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Mlm
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Mlm » Thu May 16, 2019 12:33 pm

I had a similar job offer once. The guy wanted me to come in and learn the Managers job and then he was going to fire him.
Seriously, who would want to work for a boss like that. I ran away very fast.

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mhadden1
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by mhadden1 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:47 pm

rj342 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:00 pm
They decide to create a Scrum team around me. New CFO of all people brought in an Agile consultant his prev corp had used, top down cookie cutter one size fits all 'process' imposed from above. They parachute in a couple other programmers, and a 'Product Owner' and Scrum Master, neither of whom know anything about the business, the project, or customer (whom I'd successfully dealt with directly for years).
One fateful day, CFO read "Agile for Dummies". The rest, as rj342 reports, is history.

I agree that the OP should turn down the job, unless he turns out to not mind that it's not what was offered.
Oh I can't, can I? That's what they said to Thomas Edison, mighty inventor, Thomas Lindberg, mighty flyer,and Thomas Shefsky, mighty like a rose.

oilrig
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by oilrig » Thu May 16, 2019 12:48 pm

This exact same situation happened to me. I was interviewing for a Lead/Manager role for a semi new "startup" company. I was an individual contributor at the time and looking to get into management. When I received the offer they basically said that I would start out as an individual contributor and then get promoted to a manager after a few months and get to hire my own team. There were lots of red flags throughout the interview process but I ended up accepting the offer anyway because it was closer to home and promises of big bonuses and stock options.

The job ended up being a disaster and I instantly regretted joining the company. There was already an acting "Lead" in place who would bark orders at me. Very micromanaging culture and just toxic in general.I ended up leaving the company after a few months and I am glad I did.

Im not saying the same thing will happen to you, but I would be cautious of this opportunity, especially if you have a good gig right now.

rj342
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by rj342 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:20 pm

mhadden1 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:47 pm
One fateful day, CFO read "Agile for Dummies". The rest, as rj342 reports, is history.
I agree that the OP should turn down the job, unless he turns out to not mind that it's not what was offered.
And whenever someone points out how Scrum in particular is vulnerable to misuse in ways that are the very opposite of what is claimed to be its purpose (more collaboration, ownership, break down intra org barriers betwen biz and tech, happier ppl) they always respond "That's not real Scrum" or "You're doing it wrong".

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Elsebet
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Elsebet » Thu May 16, 2019 2:47 pm

Unless you really want to work for this company or need the job desperately I would decline, it sounds like you would be in for some drama at best and soul-crushing politics at worst.
"...the man who adapts himself to his slender means and makes himself wealthy on a little sum, is the truly rich man..." ~Seneca

Dottie57
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Re: Reservations about job offer

Post by Dottie57 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:01 pm

rj342 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:20 pm
mhadden1 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:47 pm
One fateful day, CFO read "Agile for Dummies". The rest, as rj342 reports, is history.
I agree that the OP should turn down the job, unless he turns out to not mind that it's not what was offered.
And whenever someone points out how Scrum in particular is vulnerable to misuse in ways that are the very opposite of what is claimed to be its purpose (more collaboration, ownership, break down intra org barriers betwen biz and tech, happier ppl) they always respond "That's not real Scrum" or "You're doing it wrong".
Just what my former megacorp did. Agile was supposed to fix all problems. Business people never showed up for scrum. Analysts took business role (proxy). Developers took on part of analyst work. It was and I hear still is pure misery.

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