College credit for HS courses or not?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Post Reply
Topic Author
retired recently
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:09 pm

College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by retired recently » Mon May 06, 2019 7:27 am

My son and a several friends will be taking advanced classes in math (eg., MultiVariable, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, etc.) and computer science during high school and I was wondering if anyone had specific experience or can explain the pros/cons of obtaining college credit for these classes and/or testing out of the advanced math classes.

We understand if "State U" gives you XX hours of credit for a math class you have taken in HS, these credits might not go towards your math major as the University wants you to take a minimum number of classes from them. So, instead you would just end up taking higher level math classes offered by State U to obtain the math major/minor?

My son has a friend that is excellent at math but indicated he plans to major in CS but will either get a minor or double major in math. Instead of trying to get college credit for the advanced math courses he took in high school (or test out of these) he plans to retake the courses in college. For instance, he plans to take 18 or 19 hours a few semesters but this will include a math course he has already taken so he reckons it will not take much of his time since he knows much of the material already. He is not really interested in taking higher level math classes in college, he just feels that he could get a major with very little effort. Does this work?

livesoft
Posts: 66968
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:00 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by livesoft » Mon May 06, 2019 7:33 am

My kids got college credit. There was no reason to sandbag and re-take any courses in college that one is competent in.

I had a friend get a triple major just for the fun of it. He went on to grad school, so either the triple major did him no good or it was the reason his PhD is from Stanford.

So "Does this work?" Sure, but it depends on what you mean by "work."
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.

Topic Author
retired recently
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by retired recently » Mon May 06, 2019 7:59 am

My understanding is "work" means to get credentials to support the knowledge he has obtained.

My son cannot decide between CS, Math or Physics and just took Chemistry and likes it too...he is latching on to this idea but he is only a sophomore so I am sure things will change. He asked me if it is possible to do it and I had no idea.

Thanks.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 8857
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 am

DS used the courses to fulfill prerequisites once he got to college. He figured that, rather than shorten his time at college, he’d use the advantage to pick up a combined MS/BS.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

Garfieldthecat
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:48 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Garfieldthecat » Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 am

Just to give a different viewpoint, I'd say it depends.

I went to a pretty hard Engineering school. I could have placed out of several classes (Math and Physics), but chose not to. I did it for several reasons:

- If other classes (or school in general) were hard (or hard to adapt to coming from HS), it gave me a few "easy" classes to ease the transition

- Since I was an engineer, I didn't know exactly what the intro college classes taught versus the HS classes. I didn't want to place out of Math I and go straight into Math II and find that I missed something in the HS class.

I knew many others at school that could have placed out, some did, some didn't. I don't think there is a wrong answer. But I'd rather err on the side of caution and have an easier 1st semester than a too hard semester.

Now if the classes don't directly affect your major (say you are a finance major and you have to take one Physics class), then go for it. but if they are your core curriculum, I'd think about it before placing out.

NotWhoYouThink
Posts: 2557
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:19 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Mon May 06, 2019 8:04 am

Combination of college credit and head start on college courses. If you major in Physics, your university will probably require you to take their physics course. If you major in accounting, your university may accept your AP Physics course toward your science requirements.

Either way, taking challenging courses in high school is good preparation for life.

User avatar
teen persuasion
Posts: 843
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:43 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by teen persuasion » Mon May 06, 2019 8:06 am

Our experience has been that our kids had the option to pay an additional tuition fee to obtain the college credit for the courses, or skip the fee and just get HS credit. Generally, the credit wouldn't transfer for that exact course (e.g., calculus 112) unless you decided to attend the college that offered the course; you would just have 3 generic credit hours. It really depends on each college's policies. Many require all your major courses be taken at that college, so transfer credits only count towards hitting your total 120 credit hours, or maybe gen eds. Some may accept a high grade in a basic course like calculus, from a list of approved competitors.

Which college offered courses in our HS varied over the years; sometimes it was a university, sometimes it was this or that community college system. Sometimes the teacher was a HS teacher working indirectly with a university teacher, sometimes the kids were bussed to the CC campus nearby. My kids that took calculus did decide to retake it in college - they felt they needed/benefited from the double exposure.

Some majors lend themselves to double majors better than others. CS has a fairly crammed list of required courses (or, at least it did, when I was in college), with little room left over for the other major unless there's a large overlap of coursework. Math is probably the best possibility, but it could be tight, and very dense. Depends on BS vs BA choice, but of course the BA option is typically chosen precisely because it requires less math/physics, so it might be a bit odd to take that road and then do the extra concentration in math! Before committing to CS + another major, the student should look at the course requirements to see if they can plot a realistic path thru in 4 years. I always carried 18-20 credits every semester as a CS major, with nothing extra. The math courses were 4 cr hrs, physics were 3+1 cr hrs with labs, CSC were all 3+1 cr hrs with labs. You needed the mental break of a few easier gen eds each semester to balance the dense CS load.

UniversityMgmt
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 8:11 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by UniversityMgmt » Mon May 06, 2019 8:28 am

The decision whether or not to use credits earned in high school for a degree is getting more complicated. The Department of Education is getting more picky about federal money being used to pay for unneeded credits. In situations where students bring a lot of credits in their ability to maintain full-time status particularly in their last semesters and receive federal aid including loans may be at risk . The position that the government will only pay for degree pursuant courses may also trickle down to programs administered by the state.

My daughter brought a number of credits in when she started college and in her senior year only had about 12 credit hours over the entire year that were required for her degree. In her case, she maintained full-time status and took additional courses that she had an interest in. If she were in that same situation now at my University her state scholarship would only have paid on the 12 credit hours that were required. And if she had federal aid it would have been prorated.

So there may be a financial consequence to this decision that won't be realized until well into the program of study.

Barsoom
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:40 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Barsoom » Mon May 06, 2019 8:42 am

Does the university accept CLEP exam credits, too?

Your kids could take a standardized test to ascertain general college-level knowledge and get credit for these classes, too.

-B

jayk238
Posts: 582
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:02 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by jayk238 » Mon May 06, 2019 8:51 am

retired recently wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:27 am
My son and a several friends will be taking advanced classes in math (eg., MultiVariable, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, etc.) and computer science during high school and I was wondering if anyone had specific experience or can explain the pros/cons of obtaining college credit for these classes and/or testing out of the advanced math classes.

We understand if "State U" gives you XX hours of credit for a math class you have taken in HS, these credits might not go towards your math major as the University wants you to take a minimum number of classes from them. So, instead you would just end up taking higher level math classes offered by State U to obtain the math major/minor?

My son has a friend that is excellent at math but indicated he plans to major in CS but will either get a minor or double major in math. Instead of trying to get college credit for the advanced math courses he took in high school (or test out of these) he plans to retake the courses in college. For instance, he plans to take 18 or 19 hours a few semesters but this will include a math course he has already taken so he reckons it will not take much of his time since he knows much of the material already. He is not really interested in taking higher level math classes in college, he just feels that he could get a major with very little effort. Does this work?
Honest answer: almost all good programs do not allow one to test out of AP placement. I scored 5/5 on bc calc (having skipped multiple years in high school with no other options i took our calculus courses twice - calc ab and calc bc. Whet a waste.

Anyway my uni allowed me to test to an upper level course but that was all i could do. If i wanted to ‘test out ‘ and not take further classes this was not an option. I took physics, calc, world and american history, english, comp sci, chem, bio, and scored a 5 and couldnt test out of anything. If ur uni allows u to then consider elsewhere.

User avatar
RickBoglehead
Posts: 3198
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:10 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by RickBoglehead » Mon May 06, 2019 8:58 am

Our soon took college classes while in High School as well as taking AP courses.

In college (top engineering school), he did an 8 month co-op work assignment, not attending school from January - August in his sophomore year. He still was able to graduate in the 4 year timeframe (i.e. 7 semesters of classes instead of 8) with no difficulty due to his college credits and his AP credits.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

HawkeyePierce
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:29 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by HawkeyePierce » Mon May 06, 2019 9:03 am

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:04 am
Combination of college credit and head start on college courses. If you major in Physics, your university will probably require you to take their physics course. If you major in accounting, your university may accept your AP Physics course toward your science requirements.

Either way, taking challenging courses in high school is good preparation for life.
This is how I used my AP credits. I was able to get credit for a full semesters' worth of gen. ed. requirements. This made things much easier when I chose to pursue an honors thesis in my major later on as I didn't need to take full course loads in my junior and senior years.

User avatar
Clever_Username
Posts: 1310
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:24 am
Location: Southern California

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Clever_Username » Mon May 06, 2019 9:07 am

I didn't get as much college credit from high school (I wish I had known in high school that I had the option, but that's besides the point here). But I have seen students who get out of a lot of major requirements but then get to take electives to fulfill the residency requirement. So if your son gets credit for multivariable calculus and linear algebra now, maybe he graduates early, maybe he gets more electives, maybe he gets easier quarters in school because he doesn't need to take as many classes each term, and maybe that time can be go towards something like research.
"What was true then is true now. Have a plan. Stick to it." -- XXXX, _Layer Cake_ | | I survived my first downturn and all I got was this signature line.

afan
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by afan » Mon May 06, 2019 9:15 am

The college should be able to give students advice about this.

Many college courses are taught at a higher level than the AP curriculum. Thus, what it takes to get a 5 on BC calc may not be anything close to an A in intro calculus at the college. Students who skip the college version may find themselves at a disadvantage in later courses that rely on things they did not learn in the high school version. It depends on the college and the student's plans.

Our kids were able to get specific advice about how the high school courses matched up with what they would take in college. For example, one was told "Don't waste your time with first year CS, but we suggest you take a real college course in linear algebra. We are fine letting your AP physics count to a degree requirement since you are not going to be taking more physics anyway. If you planned to be a physics major, we would want you taking our intro physics course, which covers more material at greater rigor than the high school version."
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

DoTheMath
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: The Plains

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by DoTheMath » Mon May 06, 2019 9:17 am

retired recently wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:27 am
My son and a several friends will be taking advanced classes in math (eg., MultiVariable, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, etc.) and computer science during high school and I was wondering if anyone had specific experience or can explain the pros/cons of obtaining college credit for these classes and/or testing out of the advanced math classes.

We understand if "State U" gives you XX hours of credit for a math class you have taken in HS, these credits might not go towards your math major as the University wants you to take a minimum number of classes from them. So, instead you would just end up taking higher level math classes offered by State U to obtain the math major/minor?

My son has a friend that is excellent at math but indicated he plans to major in CS but will either get a minor or double major in math. Instead of trying to get college credit for the advanced math courses he took in high school (or test out of these) he plans to retake the courses in college. For instance, he plans to take 18 or 19 hours a few semesters but this will include a math course he has already taken so he reckons it will not take much of his time since he knows much of the material already. He is not really interested in taking higher level math classes in college, he just feels that he could get a major with very little effort. Does this work?
Entering college I had approximately one semester's worth of college credits from various sources. In my case the main advantage was that it saved me from 1-2 gen ed classes and I counted as a year ahead for registration purposes so was ahead of my peers when signing up for classes. That was a real perk as I almost always got the classes and times I wanted.

Now that I'm on the other side, I can tell you there are several possible cases of transfer credit. At the most basic, State U agrees to accept the credits as college credit. They then count towards the total credits required for graduation and may save on taking a few schedule-filler electives, but that's about it. The next level up would be if they are judged as counting towards fulfilling a general education requirement. At a similar but different level would be if the class is counted towards placing you into a higher level class, but doesn't actually count as having taken that class*. The highest level is where the class is judged as being a replacement for one of their classes in all ways, including counting towards a major.

These things are determined on a case-by-case, class-by-class basis by comparing the material covered in the classes. You would have to contact the math department of State U to ask them how the classes in question would count, but keep in mind a different school will have different rules. What counts at Cornell and at SE Central State U will be different.

One thing I would add is that State U classes are going to be at a different level than those taken in HS. Just because they are both called DiffEq, don't assume they are comparable. State U's version could easily cover 50% more material at twice the depth. In particular, for many students it would be valuable to take the class again, anyway. Having seen the material once will make it easier and the student will get more out of the class.

Also, your friend's son is deluded if he thinks he's going to get a math major based on retaking classes he's already seen in high school. While Calc/DiffEq/Linear Algebra are required for the major (and probably will give him most of a minor), the *real* math major classes start after those. There will be a lengthy list of advanced classes he'll have to take. Saying you want to get a math major but not go beyond the Calc/DiffEq/Linear Algebra level is like saying you want to get a physics major based on Newtonian physics and aren't interested in relativity or quantum mechanics.


*e.g. maybe State U judges your DiffEq class lets you skip their DiffEq I and go into DiffEq II, but doesn't count as having taken DiffEq I. This is rare, but there are edge cases where the content is different enough that it wouldn't be appropriate to say you've taken DiffEq I, but there is enough overlap to say you're ready for DiffEq II.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir

User avatar
celia
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:32 am
Location: SoCal

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by celia » Mon May 06, 2019 9:18 am

It is possible to take enough advanced HS classes, particularly AP courses, and some colleges will give you credit so you can graduate in 3 years or less. That could save you a lot of tuition. However, if you want to go to a top school that is hard to get into, these classes are mandatory since all the other applicants will have taken them. One (or all?) of the colleges that are the top Computer Science schools have an average SAT Math score of 800 for those who are admitted. If you don't have that, forget it. You wouldn't be able to compete with them.

FireProof
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by FireProof » Mon May 06, 2019 9:27 am

AP courses are pretty low-level for someone planning to actually major in math - 53/57 of the kids in BC Calc at our high school got 5 on the AP Test, and plenty of those 53 did lousy in the class and didn't really know much, including me (squeaked out a B-minus, but failed multiple tests), so I would say there's no shame in retaking. I graduated from college in 3 years by using AP credits, but that didn't really get me anything except bragging rights - maybe I wouldn't have been such a lousy worker if I had been a little older.

User avatar
Stinky
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:38 am
Location: Sweet Home Alabama

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Stinky » Mon May 06, 2019 9:31 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:58 am
Our soon took college classes while in High School as well as taking AP courses.

In college (top engineering school), he did an 8 month co-op work assignment, not attending school from January - August in his sophomore year. He still was able to graduate in the 4 year timeframe (i.e. 7 semesters of classes instead of 8) with no difficulty due to his college credits and his AP credits.
Very similar story for us. Our son got his accounting degree in 3.5 years, including time for a co-op work assignment. That definitely saved on the college tuition and room and board.

Highly recommended!
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

Jack FFR1846
Posts: 9493
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Mon May 06, 2019 9:45 am

Before going one way or another, look at each college course that is being planned to possibly test out of. Did the high school class cover everything? If not, take the class. I ask this way because my son, who took first year calculus at one college, then transferred, looked at the subjects covered in calculus at the new (much harder) engineering college. Between 1/4 and 1/3 of the stuff covered in the new college calculus 2 was not covered at his previous college, so he took the course. Since his previous course was transferred in, he did not receive credit for the re-take. But he needed this subject matter to progress to calc 3 and be properly prepared.

When I transferred myself, back in Fred Flintstone days.....between night classes and then going back full time for a year, plus a summer before transfer, I was able to finish the entire math series. All the calc and diff eq's. The dean at the college ok'd my math so I would not have to retake any. But had I been in the middle somewhere, he would have had me start back in calc 1. This led me to take diff eq's during the summer before transfer.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

Mike Scott
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:45 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Mike Scott » Mon May 06, 2019 10:34 am

If you have to choose between AP scores, CLEP or college transfer credit, take a hard look at the college credit option. We have a few freshmen coming in with as many as 30 or so completed college credits at about half the tuition cost and they also counted for their high school credits. We don't accept AP credits and the fee for the CLEP is the same as taking the course. YMMV so check your specific options.

afan
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by afan » Mon May 06, 2019 10:41 am

At least for standardized courses like AP, the college should have a very good idea how they stack up against the college versions they teach. For classed beyond AP you need someone in the department to look at what was covered and at what depth to get an idea whether they substitute for the college courses. If the students took these as regular college courses at a college, then it may be easier for their college to figure out how well prepared they may be.

If undecided, I would recommend taking the college version. That gives the students a chance to adjust to the pace and rigor of college classes and building a strong foundation for the major. This risks wasting some time if the student truly has mastered everything they would have in the college course. But it protects them from getting in over their heads and screwing up their GPAs due to a few overly ambitious decisions made before enrolling.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

PeterParker
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:19 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by PeterParker » Mon May 06, 2019 11:05 am

Okay real talk here.

I took BC Calc in High school (5 on the test).

I also took Linear Algebra/ Multivariate Calculus in high school (far more than most). It was a partnership with the local Community College, but taught in High school in our high school building. I did not major in Math in college, however.

I'll let you in on a little secret. First of all, how a course is taught varies ... anywhere. You can have an amazing teacher in high school and all manner of idiot college professors even at the elite level. Or ones that are more concerned about research. Or vice versa. Assuming the college course would be taught better or more extensively is just that - an assumption.

Second. There are no "secret textbooks." Linear algebra is linear algebra, no matter where you are on Earth. You understand it, or you don't. If you're taught it competently in high school and the have the opportunity to have the credit counted? Then yes ... absolutely take it. If you're worried get another Linear Alegebra textbook over the summer and do a deep dive. Take the free MIT courses online. Why not take the college credit? The argument of taking it again for an "Easy A" is dubious. If you're grade-grubbing (which I think is overrated in college, unless you want to be a lawyer) -- then why are you majoring in math anyway? Or if you are, take a "rocks for jocks" class. or a freshman seminar on the French Revolution. At least you'll learn about rocks or guillotines rather than wasting literally everyone's time retaking Linear Algebra.

The question of the University's standard in accepting AP courses or even in my case "college-equivalent community college credits" is up to that particular university's standards and policies. I went to an Elite Private University that was surprisingly lax on granting credit. Even from study-abroad, which I did in Australia, and was 10x harder than any "Harvard" here ironically, which hands out A's like candy because "precocious" grade-grubbing, grade-inflation-accustomed kids would complain hard to parents/ administrators.

I think I came in with 60 credits or so (an incredible amount) - but I graduated in 4 years because I didn't want to graduate early and my loans were not that bad (10K total). However I knew people who did graduate in 3 years, and there's definite merit to that. Both in saving a lot of money and jump-starting your career timeline by a year. Or again, if you test out of X math courses, then if you still want to do 4 years, those are free slots for other classes (foreign language, business, advertising, whatever).

There's two aspects to learning.

"Actual learning something" -- which for stuff like Linear Algebra and Multivariate Calculus, you can do for free in a public library or online (seriously there's like a million excellent free resources).

And then "having T.J. Winkler's Honorary Certificate Pedigree hereby certifying that I know this" -- which ironically DOESN'T mean you know it, but looks good on a resume/ for further graduate study. And usually can cost thousands for the Certificate.

Do not confuse the two. It's easy to learn something. If you get a shot at getting the free "certificate" --- DO IT.

psteinx
Posts: 3073
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by psteinx » Mon May 06, 2019 11:14 am

Currently going through this.

Oldest kid is wrapping up freshman year at a well ranked private. She went in with a boatload of APs, plus some dual enrollment credits she picked up in HS (joint program between the HS and a local public university). But, I think due to both an absolute cap of 15 credits that the university imposes on these kinds of incoming credits, and their tough filters on what they'll give credit for, she'll probably net about 15 credits out of all this, and it may help her a bit with some distributional requirements and/or course placements (less confident about the latter).

Second kid will be attending public in-state university with engineering focus in the fall. Also a boatload of APs and dual enrollments. But this public (much lower ranked than sib's private) is much more generous in awarding credit, and I think we're projecting ~37+ credits for him, to start. As an engineering major (barring change), there's still a lot of specific courses and pathways he'll face, and so I'm not sure he'll be able to (or want to) graduate in 3 years or even 3.5, but it should smooth things out for him. Of note, this college encourages (requires?) all students, with or without AP credits, to take their placement test(s) for math. My son did well and his advisor put him into Calc 3, even though per his score on the Calc BC test, he's only supposed to have earned credit for Calc 1 (i.e. not Calc 2).

There may also be, I think, some within university variation in credits awarded based on college (i.e. engineering vs. arts & sciences) and/or major.

Bottom line:
It's fairly hard to predict precisely what benefit(s) your kid may get from APs, dual enrollment courses and the like. But if the kid likes the subject and would be taking the course anyways, it's probably worth it to pay for and take the AP test, or pay the supplemental fee for the DE course, or whatever. Yes, you can spend a few hundred, maybe even $1-2K for this stuff over the course of high school. But even a single semester of college saved would likely be worth far more. And it's hard for a HS kid to know exactly what path they're going to take, especially at the point when they're signing up for junior/senior college (i.e. typically in their sophomore/junior years).

pancake19
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:46 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by pancake19 » Mon May 06, 2019 11:29 am

People are giving mixed opinions but they all have valid viewpoints, it depends what you are trying to prioritize. I wish I knew/thought about this before I entered college.

Here are some potential aspects, many of the other posters have pointed out most of these in various ways so I won't go into too much detail:

1. Tuition cost and graduation time: How important is minimizing tuition or trying to graduate early?
2. GPA and recruiting: How important is GPA to potential employers in that field? I personally find this to be a key question because for your first few internships / jobs there is very little for the hiring manager to go off of aside from grade.
3. Education and opportunity cost: Do you want to use the time to learn something else interesting, challenging, or useful, or is the primary concern setting up for a successful career?

There's no right or wrong here, more about what folks want out of their time in college. You can PM me if you have more questions, I am not in engineer though.

Cartographer
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:46 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Cartographer » Mon May 06, 2019 11:41 am

afan wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:15 am
The college should be able to give students advice about this.
In my experience, the college counselors who hand out this sort of information were pretty useless. Their advice is for the lowest common denominator, which means they will recommend taking absolutely no risks. Mine recommended re-taking everything and also starting the first term with the lightest course load possible. I ignored their advice, re-took nothing, and started with a moderately heavy load, and did totally fine.

I think it will very much depend on the student. If the student breezed through the class, there’s probably no point in taking it again. If the subject was truly easy for the student they’ll have no problem picking up any missing material as needed for other classes. On the other hand, if the subject was moderately difficult and the student plans to pursue a degree that builds heavily on it, it might be a good idea to take it a second time.

Instead of relying on the university’s recommendation, I suggest instead other students at the university. In general they have the best understanding of how difficult courses are and to what extent courses build off each other.

sailaway
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by sailaway » Mon May 06, 2019 11:48 am

So what if they have to taken even more advanced level once they get to college? It means they will have a wider variety and deeper knowledge in the end.

In reality, the in residence requirements usually add up to half to 3/4 of the total requirements, so these courses will likely still count.

For a student capable of taking this level of math in high school, I would be very wary of taking the same material again in college. That is the road to being very bored.

MathWizard
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by MathWizard » Mon May 06, 2019 12:01 pm

I have never seen anyone get college credit for a course taken as a HS course.
My younger son did take a course at the Univ. while in HS, which of course did count, since
it was taken at the Univ from a Univ Professor.

You can take an AP course, which should prepare you for an AP exam. You will
not get any college credit for taking an AP course in HS.

If you take an AP test, then based upon your score (usually a 4 or 5 required) you may
get credit for an equivalent college course.

Though recommended, you do not have to take the AP course to take the AP test.
One of my sons took AP Biology after taking regular Biology and getting a book for
AP Biology. He got a 4, which was enough for his (non-Biology) degree.

Both sons took HS Calc and tested out of Calc I, the younger out of Calc II as well.
Both needed another Calc course for their major, but getting credit for Calc I did not require
taking Calc II. English, however, did require a follow-on course before you got credit.
So everything depends on the Univ/college and even upon the individual departments.

Jags4186
Posts: 3478
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Jags4186 » Mon May 06, 2019 12:04 pm

The answer isn’t sandbag to get better grades. The answer is get enough credits so you can graduate a semester early and save a semesters worth of tuition.

MichCPA
Posts: 602
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:06 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by MichCPA » Mon May 06, 2019 12:22 pm

The AP exam fee is $94 and my local State U is $482 per hour. If you are good enough to major in math, you are good enough to fill in the gaps between the AP course and the intro course. Your $1,500 in savings (4 credit hours) could buy you a great deal of high level tutoring.

Kind of unrelated, but 80% of students change their major. Don't plan on being locked in to any specific program. Just vacuum up all of the AP credit you can get in high school.

Topic Author
retired recently
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by retired recently » Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm

Thanks very much for all of the information, I will share it with my son.

At this stage, my son is leaning toward majoring in math so I do not think this will benefit him much, His buddy seems to be certain that he wants to do CS (he got USACO Gold this year as a sophomore). My son is auditing a math course at a nearby well known college and has done very well in it and while my son is very good in math, his friend is a bit better...at least based on contest scores to the extent those are reflective? They both sailed through Calc BC as freshmen with As and 5s.

Definitely it makes a difference which college one attends (ie,. this would not be possible at MIT, etc) but for the CS major that is excellent at math his plan seems reasonable if he goes to our State U or equivalent. He does not want to go deeper in math, he only wants credentials to support his knowledge and money will be an issue for him. As an Asian male in STEM, he realizes his chances of being accepted into a tippy-top Uni are not great. He hopes to come out of our State U or equivalent with a double major in CS and math or major in CS and a minor in math. I know some, if not many, do not like his approach, but I definitely see the benefits of it.

Tuition seems to be the same at 12 hours and above at State U so he will not pay by the credit hour. So one option is he could take general college credit for Linear Algebra, Diff Equations, etc and in order to attain his minor, for example, take upper level math courses which will take significant time/effort. Instead he will take a full course load of say 15 hours and then also take Differential Equations one semester. He will do the same each semester, take 15 hours and then add a math course that he knows most of the material so it will not require too much time. His goal is not to learn more math but instead to get a minor or major in it. He intends to work in CS but feels it might be useful to also have a math minor/major. If this works at this specific Uni, I do not see why others think it is wrong to do so. The State U would not grant the major/minor if they did not feel he earned it...so what if he learned a large portion of it years before...

sailaway
Posts: 744
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by sailaway » Mon May 06, 2019 1:46 pm

If his goal is to get credentials without learning more, he will probably not do well at careers in CS or math, either one. Both require lifelong learning to succeed.

SimonJester
Posts: 1912
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by SimonJester » Mon May 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Bot kids have done this... The Oldest with AP credits, the youngest with direct College credits from several HS classes.

The oldest had said while the AP credits counted towards credits and allowed him to skip ahead to the next class, he did feel well prepared for the more advanced class. He said he would not skip the classes if he had to do it over again.

We shall see with the youngest as he goes off to College in the fall with 4 college classes behind him...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Topic Author
retired recently
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by retired recently » Mon May 06, 2019 2:44 pm

sailaway wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:46 pm
If his goal is to get credentials without learning more, he will probably not do well at careers in CS or math, either one. Both require lifelong learning to succeed.
I would happily bet that he will do extremely well in anything he chooses as he has the rare combination of being highly intelligent and very hard-working.

From what I can tell he just wants to move on past math, he likes it but seems to much prefer CS. Still young, he might change several times over the next few years.

rj342
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:21 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by rj342 » Mon May 06, 2019 2:50 pm

Garfield is correct.
Err on the side of caution in using Physics or Math AP credits to skip those courses if your major will be Math, Physics or any Engineering. Your first year will be a little easier, and you'll avoid the risk of nasty wake up call jumping into the 2nd or 3rd college sequence course under-prepared in reality.

rj342
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:21 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by rj342 » Mon May 06, 2019 2:58 pm

My son is doing CS at a state school (ABET accredited program). If they do actual Computer Science specifically, then they have to take so many math course as part of the curriculum then it is trivial to add a course or two and have math be their minor. He may be overthinking it.
There is no substitute for actually browsing the curriculum for that major.

re Math major -- its a bit odd in that usually its not worth that much unless you're going for graduate degrees, or teach high school.
HOWEVER math is upstream from a lot fields -- lots of higher end math majors get hired by financial industry or insurance.
If none of those sound interesting to him, skip the math major and get a math based major like physics or engineering or CS that has broader direct applicability in terms of jobs, and take some extra math if he wants.

User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 8857
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon May 06, 2019 3:14 pm

rj342 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:58 pm
My son is doing CS at a state school (ABET accredited program). If they do actual Computer Science specifically, then they have to take so many math course as part of the curriculum then it is trivial to add a course or two and have math be their minor. He may be overthinking it.
There is no substitute for actually browsing the curriculum for that major.
re Math major -- its a bit odd in that usually its not worth that much unless you're going for graduate degrees, or teach high school.
HOWEVER math is upstream from a lot fields -- lots of higher end math majors get hired by financial industry or insurance.
If none of those sound interesting to him, skip the math major and get a math based major like physics or engineering or CS that has broader direct applicability in terms of jobs, and take some extra math if he wants.
What rj said.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

bryansmile
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:14 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by bryansmile » Mon May 06, 2019 3:15 pm

My son started college with 60+ credit hours from high school. Here's what the upperclassmen told him which seems to be the consensus on campus: a lot of the freshmen level courses (physics, chem, bio, calc I II III) are "weed out" classes, so they are made exceptional hard, harder than necessary.
www.shoulditakethecredit.com
With the time saved from retaking classes the student has already learned, they're better off taking more advanced courses in their major, or graduating early.
BTW, AP Computer Science usually does not count as college credit.

MnD
Posts: 4287
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:41 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by MnD » Mon May 06, 2019 4:04 pm

DD received 33 credits for IB and AP exam scores in math, physics and other classes at a top state U engineering college where she majored in physics.
She did not retake any of the many classes she tested out of but rather added the undergrad honors program which required additional credits and coursework, took several graduate level classes and most importantly, took several higher-level computer science classes her junior and senior year. That influenced her to apply directly to PhD programs in computer science after getting her B.S. in physics and was accepted to a top 5 school for CS graduate programs where she is now finishing up her pHD with an emphasis on AI and robotics. She hasn't paid a dime for her graduate school, has saved a significant portion of her stipend along with income from startups she's worked with, traveled to several continents presenting papers and conducting research and can pretty much write her own ticket upon graduation in less than 2 years. So those IB and AP credits and skipped entry-level college classes were very likely career and life-altering and in a good way.

DoTheMath
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:11 pm
Location: The Plains

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by DoTheMath » Mon May 06, 2019 4:17 pm

rj342 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:58 pm
re Math major -- its a bit odd in that usually its not worth that much unless you're going for graduate degrees, or teach high school.
HOWEVER math is upstream from a lot fields -- lots of higher end math majors get hired by financial industry or insurance.
If none of those sound interesting to him, skip the math major and get a math based major like physics or engineering or CS that has broader direct applicability in terms of jobs, and take some extra math if he wants.
From everything I've seen this couldn't be less true. Very few of our math majors go to grad school or teaching. I've talked with reps from dozens of employers over the years and they all actively recruit the math majors at our University. These companies do a wide variety of things and all are looking for math majors. Most would much rather have a math major with an econ or business minor than the reverse. Of course engineering/CS/etc. is in high demand, but I don't see any evidence that a physics major is more valued than a math major, for example.
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir

basspond
Posts: 1196
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:01 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by basspond » Mon May 06, 2019 4:19 pm

Definitely. Allowed my child to graduate in 3 years.

afan
Posts: 4216
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by afan » Mon May 06, 2019 6:42 pm

As the answers above indicate, the answer will depend on the course and the college.

My suggestion about asking the college presumed that you can discuss it with a faculty member in the relevant department who advises students on such things. If the college does not offer that level of faculty attention, then I agree that a staff member is unlikely to know enough about the subject matter or the courses to give advice.

Big state universities often have too few faculty for the size of the student body for the faculty to deal with these questions. One of the things you get at the elite private universities is this kind of one on one advice. If such advice is not available then the student has to make a guess. The students are in a poor position to guess what would come after the course they may consider skipping. The students don't know what elements of the course they took in high school will be critical in higher level courses. Professors will know this, in detail. They will know which later courses rely heavily on something that may have been treated lightly in the college course. If the professors are not available to respond to student questions I would lean toward being conservative about skipping.

Simply breezing through a high school course does not help clarify the issue much. If the high school course was easier, more limited and slower paced than the college course would have been, then finding it easy is no assurance that the experience in a college course would have been the same.

The simplest situation is where the student took the same college course at the same college. Then all these mysteries disappear.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

mariezzz
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:02 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by mariezzz » Mon May 06, 2019 6:47 pm

Garfieldthecat wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 am
Just to give a different viewpoint, I'd say it depends.

I went to a pretty hard Engineering school. I could have placed out of several classes (Math and Physics), but chose not to. I did it for several reasons:

- If other classes (or school in general) were hard (or hard to adapt to coming from HS), it gave me a few "easy" classes to ease the transition

- Since I was an engineer, I didn't know exactly what the intro college classes taught versus the HS classes. I didn't want to place out of Math I and go straight into Math II and find that I missed something in the HS class.

I knew many others at school that could have placed out, some did, some didn't. I don't think there is a wrong answer. But I'd rather err on the side of caution and have an easier 1st semester than a too hard semester.

Now if the classes don't directly affect your major (say you are a finance major and you have to take one Physics class), then go for it. but if they are your core curriculum, I'd think about it before placing out.
+1.
There's a lot to be said about re-taking a class, even if you feel you have a lot of the knowledge (from a high school class). No two classes are ever completely identical. You may develop deeper knowledge about some topics. You may learn certain details you weren't previously aware of.

Higher-level classes within the same subject area build on the knowledge from lower-level classes; if the course material hasn't been mastered thoroughly, the student will struggle more. First year college students are already struggling in various ways to adjust to college.

Many students new to college (even ones with an A average) grossly underestimate how much more difficult college classes are, compared to high school (grade inflation in college also means the average college grade has risen over the past few decades; college courses on average aren't as rigorous as they once were). There's a reason why many colleges have stopped giving college credit for AP classes - they don't feel they're as rigorous as they once were (instead, they'll waive a prerequisite and instead, require some other dept course replace it).

If a student took a college class (and received college credit) while in high school, that's a little different. However, if the grade received wasn't at least an A-, and the course within the area the student thinks they'll major in, it probably isn't worth transferring the credits to a new college (that lower grade likely will show up on the transcript as a transferred course, even if it's not calculated into the GPA). Better to re-take the course in first semester of full-time college and aim for an A.

While a college degree is important, to me, the more important goal is to learn ... to have a broad foundation of knowledge that will serve one well, going forward.

The vast majority of high schools students are not prepared for college-level courses. Strong grades in high school are not a guarantee that the student is prepared for college-level courses. Yes, there are a small percentage of high school students who are, and who can easily omit certain college-level classes. (But, the best way to determine whether they can is to take a higher level class, that builds primarily on material presented in the lower level class, and get an A (not an A-) in the higher level course. As a note: Survey/Intro courses (e.g., SUBJECT 101) cover a broad range of material across many higher level courses - they don't provide the majority of material for a single higher level course.)

Cartographer
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:46 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Cartographer » Mon May 06, 2019 8:08 pm

retired recently wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm
Tuition seems to be the same at 12 hours and above at State U so he will not pay by the credit hour. So one option is he could take general college credit for Linear Algebra, Diff Equations, etc and in order to attain his minor, for example, take upper level math courses which will take significant time/effort. Instead he will take a full course load of say 15 hours and then also take Differential Equations one semester. He will do the same each semester, take 15 hours and then add a math course that he knows most of the material so it will not require too much time. His goal is not to learn more math but instead to get a minor or major in it. He intends to work in CS but feels it might be useful to also have a math minor/major. If this works at this specific Uni, I do not see why others think it is wrong to do so. The State U would not grant the major/minor if they did not feel he earned it...so what if he learned a large portion of it years before...
Math majors/minors will typically require a certain number of upper-division classes. Linear algebra and DiffEQ are usually lower-division “prereq” courses that are required to take the upper-division courses. The result is that, regardless of whether or not he re-takes the courses, he will still need the same number of upper-division courses.

Retaking the courses just to get an easy credential is in my opinion a waste of time. That time would be better spent pursuing things he truly enjoys, be it coursework or extracurriculars.

stoptothink
Posts: 5737
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by stoptothink » Mon May 06, 2019 8:25 pm

mariezzz wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:47 pm
While a college degree is important, to me, the more important goal is to learn ... to have a broad foundation of knowledge that will serve one well, going forward.
I say the same thing...now, that I am 7 years removed from finishing my education. I'd bet the percentage of current college students with this mindset is pretty close to zero. What 18yr old is going to retake a course - show up to class, complete the work, and stress over tests - that they aren't required to?

I actually went back and reread my old advanced biostatistics text, rented another, and watched countless online tutorials while completing my doctoral dissertation, but that was out of necessity because I was one of the few who wasn't using a consultant for my data analysis. I wasn't about to go to the local CC and sign-up to retake the course though.

StealthRabbit
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:25 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by StealthRabbit » Tue May 07, 2019 12:25 am

ALWAYS get a transfer agreement with your U BEFORE enrolling in college classes elsewhere.

Thank goodness WA state has offered FREE FT college instead of HS for nearly 30 yrs (since 1990).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_Start

Thus it is possible and often happens to get 100% acceptance of these credits.

Ours were done with college by age 20 (STEM majors). Good thing it was free, since they paid 100% of the fare.

Several kids in our youth group and homeschool group went on to med / law school. Many kids were STEM and done by age 20. (Private and public U). Running Start program usually grants Associates Degree, but will also grant you a HS degree if for some reason you would want one.

But... family businesses run by Homeschoolers were probably of the most benefit to the students during HS yrs. (many ran businesses while attending Running Start). Certainly a good idea to hire students to get a real perspective to what the deliverable is from your local school!

mariezzz
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:02 pm

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by mariezzz » Tue May 07, 2019 11:07 am

stoptothink wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:25 pm
mariezzz wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:47 pm
While a college degree is important, to me, the more important goal is to learn ... to have a broad foundation of knowledge that will serve one well, going forward.
I say the same thing...now, that I am 7 years removed from finishing my education. I'd bet the percentage of current college students with this mindset is pretty close to zero. What 18yr old is going to retake a course - show up to class, complete the work, and stress over tests - that they aren't required to?

I actually went back and reread my old advanced biostatistics text, rented another, and watched countless online tutorials while completing my doctoral dissertation, but that was out of necessity because I was one of the few who wasn't using a consultant for my data analysis. I wasn't about to go to the local CC and sign-up to retake the course though.
"I'd bet the percentage of current college students with this mindset is pretty close to zero. "
This may be close to the the truth, but in part, it's because of the values parents communicate to these students. Those with parents who communicate the value of 'learning', not just getting a degree, are more likely to have a different mindset.

I was a first generation college student, and I valued 'learning'. From childhood, both learning AND getting an education was emphasized as important, to move away from the low paying, back breaking work previous generations had done. But my upbringing also emphasized working hard, and doing one's best.

Anyone who is in a PhD program should have the wherewithal to do what it takes to learn the material - how does one expect to be an independent researcher (of any kind) if one cannot figure out (or learn what is needed) most things on one's own? There are very few people in PhD programs in primary research fields who pay an external consultant for data analysis for their dissertation. Many go talk to their committee members or others in the dept with the expertise, if they want a discussion of the merits of one approach over another. This is an opportunity to learn, enrich one's understanding, have a discussion with a colleague (they may be on your committee, or a faculty member in your dept, but they're also a colleague, if you're in a PhD program.) It was very common in my field for people to take extra classes, learn material on their own, and so on, as needed for their research and related interests- I think this is typical for primary research across the board.

stoptothink
Posts: 5737
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by stoptothink » Tue May 07, 2019 11:21 am

mariezzz wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:07 am
There are very few people in PhD programs in primary research fields who pay an external consultant for data analysis for their dissertation. Many go talk to their committee members or others in the dept with the expertise, if they want a discussion of the merits of one approach over another. This is an opportunity to learn, enrich one's understanding, have a discussion with a colleague (they may be on your committee, or a faculty member in your dept, but they're also a colleague, if you're in a PhD program.) It was very common in my field for people to take extra classes, learn material on their own, and so on, as needed for their research and related interests- I think this is typical for primary research across the board.
I don't know what field of study you are in, but I was an outlier in that I did it on my own and my advisor made that very clear. As I was soldiering through it, she suggested several times to just find someone else as almost all of my classmates were. This very moment I am acting as a PhD "mentor" for two colleagues, both of them are using outside consultants. I also work in a private company that publishes a lot of scientific research - my colleagues and I have published 24 studies in the last 2yrs - and, while we all have experience doing the data analysis, we have an outside consultant from a local university and are looking to hire a biostatistician on full-time as we have a dedicated clinical research facility being built on our site right now. We could do it, but it's not our area of expertise and therefore not the best use of our time. If you are in academia and publishing is your primary job responsibility, sure, but in my experience with private industry, primary research scientists are not generally handling their own stats.
Last edited by stoptothink on Tue May 07, 2019 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

student
Posts: 3385
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by student » Tue May 07, 2019 11:29 am

Take the credits. Most universities usually count these credits towards a major but the student has to take at least X credits at the home institution. If not, they can never take transfer students. I assume he has taken these courses from a local university. From what you have described, the student has only taken freshman and sophomore level math courses. So I don't think this will be an issue.

FeesR-BullNotBullish
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 11:22 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by FeesR-BullNotBullish » Tue May 07, 2019 12:04 pm

I had to declare a major way before I was ready because I entered college loaded up with credits. Although I was good in school, I just didn't have much direction or drive for what came after. I wish I took more general courses in college to feel my way around for a year or two before getting serious.

Chadnudj
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:22 am

Re: College credit for HS courses or not?

Post by Chadnudj » Tue May 07, 2019 12:05 pm

My experience (at private university in Midwest): AP courses that I got a 4 or 5 on basically all counted for credits and to fulfill prerequisite requirements generally, but not specific to my major. So I didn't have to take science or math classes in order to graduate from the College of Arts and Sciences (because I had gotten enough credits from AP to meet the graduation requirements for them), but I still had to take statistics prerequisites required by my majors (economics and political science). In other areas, I could skip onto more interesting electives (skipping intro English literature for more advanced electives outside of my major).

The biggest advantage, by far, was in my "class" standing and in registration: after my first quarter (when my AP credits got factored in), I was a junior for registration purposes (and for parking-on-campus privilege purposes, too), which meant I could register earlier and get into more of the classes I really wanted.

Post Reply