College Expenses

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GCD
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Re: College Expenses

Post by GCD »

stoptothink wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:07 pm
GCD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 4:57 pm LOL, this board never has discussions about kids with A- averages, 1200 SATs, who played varsity baseball but weren't state champs and who only volunteered at the soup kitchen 3 days a week!
Everybody's kid is above average, here: WAY above average. This discussion is always fun, but in the real world it is relevant to a very small percentage of the population. My kids are ahead of the curve compared to their peers locally, but (at 7 and 4), I can all but guarantee this discussion is not relevant to them.
Yeah, I'm somewhat relieved I don't have kids who busted their butt all the way through HS constructing a resume fit for HYPMS and then have to console them afterwards when they don't get lucky on the crapshoot. For us, we are gaming it in a non-obsessive way and hoping for William and Mary over Virginia Tech and George Mason.

It's kind of funny how things have changed over the years. My dad was admitted to Harvard and attended U. of Chicago back in the late 1950s. He wouldn't even be competitive today.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

stoptothink wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:07 pm
GCD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 4:57 pm LOL, this board never has discussions about kids with A- averages, 1200 SATs, who played varsity baseball but weren't state champs and who only volunteered at the soup kitchen 3 days a week!
Everybody's kid is above average, here: WAY above average. This discussion is always fun, but in the real world it is relevant to a very small percentage of the population. My kids are ahead of the curve compared to their peers locally, but (at 7 and 4), I can all but guarantee this discussion is not relevant to them.
stoptothink,

1) To be the national merit commended student, you need to be the top 32,000 out of 1.6 million = top 2%.

2) National Merit Semi-finalist = Top 16,000 = top 1%

3) National Merit Finalist = Top 7,500 to Top 8,000 but it is state specific.

My son is a National Merit Commended Student. We are in Virginia. The competition is very tough. So, he is only a commended student. If we move to some state with a lower threshold, he would be a finalist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ip_Program

KlangFool
inbox788
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Re: College Expenses

Post by inbox788 »

rj342 wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:16 pm You people DO know some of the private wanna-be-Ivies game the selectiveness rankings and acceptance rates by deliberately marketing to students they know are only very marginally competitive by their normal standards.
Right?
They get more applications they know they'll turn down to to beef up their *rejection* rate.
Sorry kid, we pumped you up a bit knowing the answer was almost certainly going to be No.
This makes so much business sense! Offer low cost or free application to help increase your under-represented pools, while at the same time lower your admissions rate to appear more competitive. Is there a measure that exposes this type of gaming of the statistics?
During the last admission season, Washington and Lee reported that 5,972 students applied for admission and only 19 percent were accepted. After obtaining internal records from the school, however, the Washington Post showed that more than 1,100 applications -- about one out of every six -- were never completed. The students failed to submit such things as standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, transcripts or other admission requirements.

If Washington and Lee had not counted the incomplete applications, the school's acceptance rate would have increased to 24 percent, making it seem considerably easier for students to get in.

Of course, this isn't the first school that has jiggered the numbers to generate a low acceptance rate. Two years ago, a U.S. Naval Academy professor obtained damning admission data for the military academy by filing a Freedom of Information Act request. It was discovered that the school was reporting an admission rate of 7.5 percent even though two-thirds of the applications were never completed.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/beware-of- ... nce-rates/

This isn't right, but tame compared to other abuses.
NJdad6
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Re: College Expenses

Post by NJdad6 »

rj342 wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:16 pm You people DO know some of the private wanna-be-Ivies game the selectiveness rankings and acceptance rates by deliberately marketing to students they know are only very marginally competitive by their normal standards.
Right?
They get more applications they know they'll turn down to to beef up their *rejection* rate.
Sorry kid, we pumped you up a bit knowing the answer was almost certainly going to be No.
Yes, they all try to game the system. But those that are accepted are in the top percentile in grades, scores, etc. University of Chicago is notorious for this but ranked 3rd in USNEWS behind Princeton and Harvard.
DrGoogle2017
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Re: College Expenses

Post by DrGoogle2017 »

KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:30 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:07 pm
GCD wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 4:57 pm LOL, this board never has discussions about kids with A- averages, 1200 SATs, who played varsity baseball but weren't state champs and who only volunteered at the soup kitchen 3 days a week!
Everybody's kid is above average, here: WAY above average. This discussion is always fun, but in the real world it is relevant to a very small percentage of the population. My kids are ahead of the curve compared to their peers locally, but (at 7 and 4), I can all but guarantee this discussion is not relevant to them.
stoptothink,

1) To be the national merit commended student, you need to be the top 32,000 out of 1.6 million = top 2%.

2) National Merit Semi-finalist = Top 16,000 = top 1%

3) National Merit Finalist = Top 7,500 to Top 8,000 but it is state specific.

My son is a National Merit Commended Student. We are in Virginia. The competition is very tough. So, he is only a commended student. If we move to some state with a lower threshold, he would be a finalist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ip_Program

KlangFool
Klangfool,
You should not complain, my kid went to school with 10 perfect ACT scorers, one of the relatives of the in laws of my brother got the first 2400 back in 2006, first time the SAT switched from 1600 to 2400, she was on local TV even. Talk about competition. Your kid has it easy. Lol.
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celia
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Re: College Expenses

Post by celia »

HereToLearn wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:40 pm If your son attains the cut-off score for your state, and then fills out an application which might require a letter of rec, he should move from NM semi-finalist to finalist. He will then be eligible for the NMF scholarships offered by Oklahoma, Alabama, and others.

My son was NMF a couple of years ago, but we did not pursue the full-rides. Those awards are completely independent of finances. You never need to submit any of your income info or tax returns.
Our experience with NMF is that some schools you never heard of and would never be interested in would give you full-rides. Once the finalists are announced, these schools send out letters hoping to attract a few of them to increase their own "reputation". Note that the students hadn't even applied to these schools. They just got "congratulations and welcome" letters in the mail.

The UCLA recruiter came to my son's school (in the local area) to meet some of the top students. They ended up admitting more students than they ever had for his class. But none of the students ended up going there, since it cost less to go elsewhere with the scholarships they had.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 pm
HereToLearn wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 11:40 pm If your son attains the cut-off score for your state, and then fills out an application which might require a letter of rec, he should move from NM semi-finalist to finalist. He will then be eligible for the NMF scholarships offered by Oklahoma, Alabama, and others.

My son was NMF a couple of years ago, but we did not pursue the full-rides. Those awards are completely independent of finances. You never need to submit any of your income info or tax returns.
Our experience with NMF is that some schools you never heard of and would never be interested in would give you full-rides. Once the finalists are announced, these schools send out letters hoping to attract a few of them to increase their own "reputation". Note that the students hadn't even applied to these schools. They just got "congratulations and welcome" letters in the mail.

The UCLA recruiter came to my son's school (in the local area) to meet some of the top students. They ended up admitting more students than they ever had for his class. But none of the students ended up going there, since it cost less to go elsewhere with the scholarships they had.
celia,

My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead. Since the student is doing a pre-med, the parent would have to take another student loan for the medical school too. Then, he had the audacity to whine about this and claimed that he had no choice but to say yes. And, he has two more kids to go.

KlangFool
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Vulcan
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Re: College Expenses

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:30 pm 2) National Merit Semi-finalist = Top 16,000 = top 1%

3) National Merit Finalist = Top 7,500 to Top 8,000 but it is state specific.
NMF = 15,000
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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celia
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Re: College Expenses

Post by celia »

KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:52 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
celia,

Actually, the odd went down because the medical school entry is dependent on the undergraduate CGPA.

The other one of my co-workers took a separate route. His daughter went to VT with a full-ride scholarship instead of Northwestern. She beat out her classmates that went to Northwestern for medical school entry because she has better CGPA.

KlangFool
Last edited by KlangFool on Thu May 09, 2019 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

Vulcan wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:50 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:30 pm 2) National Merit Semi-finalist = Top 16,000 = top 1%

3) National Merit Finalist = Top 7,500 to Top 8,000 but it is state specific.
NMF = 15,000
Okay. I made a mistake.

KlangFool
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Vulcan
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Re: College Expenses

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 7:03 pm
Vulcan wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:50 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 5:30 pm 2) National Merit Semi-finalist = Top 16,000 = top 1%

3) National Merit Finalist = Top 7,500 to Top 8,000 but it is state specific.
NMF = 15,000
Okay. I made a mistake.
You were probably thinking of scholars
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
NJdad6
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Re: College Expenses

Post by NJdad6 »

celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:52 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
Entirely different topic but that list conflicts with other data. Not an expert but did lots of research on this. In fact those schools might be the worst places to go for med school admission. Many brights students go to these schools for pre-med. Due to curves many are weeded out or do not get the grades needed to get into med school.

I did not go to med school but have learned that very little weight is given to the undergrad school. All else being equal, med schools will take the student with a higher GPA from Ohio State than the student from Harvard. However you want a school that has a good reputation and has access to research, shadowing, etc. where you can be successful. It is also difficult to compare med school acceptance rates by undergrad because it is not an apples to apples comparison.

I spoke to a family friend who is an MD affiliated with one of those schools. He strongly suggested my son not go to his school for pre-med. Medical school is a completely different story.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

NJdad6 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 6:14 am
celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:52 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
Entirely different topic but that list conflicts with other data. Not an expert but did lots of research on this. In fact those schools might be the worst places to go for med school admission. Many brights students go to these schools for pre-med. Due to curves many are weeded out or do not get the grades needed to get into med school.

I did not go to med school but have learned that very little weight is given to the undergrad school. All else being equal, med schools will take the student with a higher GPA from Ohio State than the student from Harvard. However you want a school that has a good reputation and has access to research, shadowing, etc. where you can be successful. It is also difficult to compare med school acceptance rates by undergrad because it is not an apples to apples comparison.

I spoke to a family friend who is an MD affiliated with one of those schools. He strongly suggested my son not go to his school for pre-med. Medical school is a completely different story.
NJdad6,

And for some school like VCU which started as a medical school, they have a guaranteed admission program.

https://honors.vcu.edu/admissions/prefe ... -medicine/

KlangFool
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: College Expenses

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

Wow, we've come a long way from:
We have a 7 and 12 year old with roughly $80K and $90K put away so far for college.

My question - How do I "guess" REAL college expenses? I know the costs of the state schools
To where to go to undergraduate to get into a good med school.

It's been an interesting view into how different posters handle uncertainty.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

In summary, buyer beware! If someone is going to spend a lot of money on college education, make sure that

A) It is worth the money.

B) You did shop around for a better-valued alternative.

The 100K to 200K difference is significant. Do not end up like my co-worker that took a student loan and send his daughter to Northwestern for pre-med. Besides spending a lot of money, he is hurting his daughter's chance to enter medical school.

KlangFool
NJdad6
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Re: College Expenses

Post by NJdad6 »

I think this has been stated before but major/career path definitely play into the choice as well. If the student plans on Med school, law school, etc. you need to do your homework and pick the school/major that will give them the best shot into getting in the best graduate school.

For investment banking/Wall Street the school DOES make a difference. Top banks only recruit from top schools. Good friends son is a business major at a large state school. He met a big wig from Goldman and asked him about where they recruit from and why they don’t look at the state schools. His comment was along the lines of if you don’t invest in yourself by going to a top school, why should we invest in you.

OP- the college process is very complex and there are a ton of variables involved. In the end you do your research, provide guidance and make a decision based on all the variables (including price). Then you buy the t-shirt.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: College Expenses

Post by TomatoTomahto »

For investment banking/Wall Street the school DOES make a difference. Top banks only recruit from top schools. Good friends son is a business major at a large state school. He met a big wig from Goldman and asked him about where they recruit from and why they don’t look at the state schools. His comment was along the lines of if you don’t invest in yourself by going to a top school, why should we invest in you.
For some college humor, and with a warning that the language isn’t family friendly, here’s a video about wanting to work for The Goldman Sachs. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx4poQw1mZo
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
fasteddie911
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Re: College Expenses

Post by fasteddie911 »

I think undergrad and med schools can be a crapshoot. MCATs, extra-curricular, GPA, interview, career interests, etc. can all be factors. I know a Harvard grad that didn't make it into State med school while grad from unranked State school did. I'm not sure I'd give up a full-ride to UVA (#25 USnews) vs 300k for 4yrs at Northwestern, all for a perceived improved chance at med school. That's 300k that can go towards med school, but even then an expensive private med school probably isn't worth it outside of certain specialty interests and circumstances. Also, what happens if the students changes their major in undergrad. Plenty kids go in thinking premed but change their minds. In which case said school may be a benefit or waste.
rj342
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Re: College Expenses

Post by rj342 »

FWIW Instapundit blogger Glenn Reynolds, a law professor, says that most of the time, unless you're really trying to get on the national stage in NYC or DC, for a law degree you are usually better off going to the top law school in your own state (presumably where you will be practicing) -- less expensive, and you are making the connections that will matter most to your career.
And it even makes sense if you look at going to DC riding the coattails of your states congressional delegation.

On other un-PC thought for those not swimming in cash -- you should urge your daughters to be realistic about that taking a bunch of loans for that snazzy private liberal arts college (when you've got the state school covered pretty well) for an unmarketable degree should they decide sooner than later after graduating to stay home with kids. Her excessive loans can horribly hamstring a young families finances, and it happens all the time. Or with the useless degree she works at a non-lucrative job just to pay loans and daycare, depriving young kids of a stay at home mom without some significant compensating net benefit,and maybe help drive family up into next tax bracket.
cableguy
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Re: College Expenses

Post by cableguy »

My son goes to a private university, about $65,000 per year. However, he got $28,000 a year for four years off the bill for academics. So $37,000 a year. That's tuition, dorm room, meal plan, tickets to football-basketball-etc. You'll get hit up for spending money, club team dues, etc. But that's not a big deal. Keep an eye on travel. If he/she goes far from home, you'll be dealing with flights, uber, etc. That can add up. If you save $125k per kid when they enter their freshman year, and keep saving a few bucks every month until graduation, you are in good shape. My opinion....only go the private university route if you are getting money, have a lot of money, or they are going to a top 10 school.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

rj342 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 9:27 am
On other un-PC thought for those not swimming in cash -- you should urge your daughters to be realistic about that taking a bunch of loans for that snazzy private liberal arts college (when you've got the state school covered pretty well) for an unmarketable degree should they decide sooner than later after graduating to stay home with kids. Her excessive loans can horribly hamstring a young families finances, and it happens all the time. Or with the useless degree she works at a non-lucrative job just to pay loans and daycare, depriving young kids of a stay at home mom without some significant compensating net benefit,and maybe help drive family up into next tax bracket.
rj342,

It is not her loan. For any significant amount, the parent will be co-signing the student loan. The student could only get into this kind of trouble if the parent said yes to the student loan.

KlangFool
mancich
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Re: College Expenses

Post by mancich »

rj342 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 9:27 am FWIW Instapundit blogger Glenn Reynolds, a law professor, says that most of the time, unless you're really trying to get on the national stage in NYC or DC, for a law degree you are usually better off going to the top law school in your own state (presumably where you will be practicing) -- less expensive, and you are making the connections that will matter most to your career.
And it even makes sense if you look at going to DC riding the coattails of your states congressional delegation.

On other un-PC thought for those not swimming in cash -- you should urge your daughters to be realistic about that taking a bunch of loans for that snazzy private liberal arts college (when you've got the state school covered pretty well) for an unmarketable degree should they decide sooner than later after graduating to stay home with kids. Her excessive loans can horribly hamstring a young families finances, and it happens all the time. Or with the useless degree she works at a non-lucrative job just to pay loans and daycare, depriving young kids of a stay at home mom without some significant compensating net benefit,and maybe help drive family up into next tax bracket.
+1, especially on the 2nd paragraph. For a lot of 4 year degrees, I am not at all convinced that overpaying for a super-expensive college is worth more in lifetime earnings than an average state school. If cash is completely not an issue and someone wants to spend $200,000 on a Bachelors degree, have at it. Not us. DW and I will send our kids to quality state schools or if they get a large scholarship at a private school and the balance is what we would have spent at state school, that's fine too. But otherwise, no. No huge student loans, parent loans, 401k loans, refinancing of our house, or any of that. I think collectively as a society (excluding most Bogleheads), we have gotten out of hand with what we are willing to pay for college.
ncbill
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Re: College Expenses

Post by ncbill »

fasteddie911 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 9:11 am I think undergrad and med schools can be a crapshoot. MCATs, extra-curricular, GPA, interview, career interests, etc. can all be factors. I know a Harvard grad that didn't make it into State med school while grad from unranked State school did. I'm not sure I'd give up a full-ride to UVA (#25 USnews) vs 300k for 4yrs at Northwestern, all for a perceived improved chance at med school. That's 300k that can go towards med school, but even then an expensive private med school probably isn't worth it outside of certain specialty interests and circumstances. Also, what happens if the students changes their major in undergrad. Plenty kids go in thinking premed but change their minds. In which case said school may be a benefit or waste.
Why pay for it yourself?

I have a relative who took the military's offer to attend medical school...when he was in his mid-30s.

They trained him in a lucrative specialty and he retired, IIRC, as an O-5 in his early 50s (had a prior enlistment)

Now puts that training to use in several hospitals near his home...but I doubt he has to work for a living anymore.
Last edited by ncbill on Fri May 10, 2019 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ks289
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Re: College Expenses

Post by ks289 »

KlangFool wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 7:41 am
NJdad6 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 6:14 am
celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:52 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
Entirely different topic but that list conflicts with other data. Not an expert but did lots of research on this. In fact those schools might be the worst places to go for med school admission. Many brights students go to these schools for pre-med. Due to curves many are weeded out or do not get the grades needed to get into med school.

I did not go to med school but have learned that very little weight is given to the undergrad school. All else being equal, med schools will take the student with a higher GPA from Ohio State than the student from Harvard. However you want a school that has a good reputation and has access to research, shadowing, etc. where you can be successful. It is also difficult to compare med school acceptance rates by undergrad because it is not an apples to apples comparison.

I spoke to a family friend who is an MD affiliated with one of those schools. He strongly suggested my son not go to his school for pre-med. Medical school is a completely different story.
NJdad6,

And for some school like VCU which started as a medical school, they have a guaranteed admission program.

https://honors.vcu.edu/admissions/prefe ... -medicine/

KlangFool
For medical school admissions I agree that undergraduate GPA matters a great deal (probably more than the reputation/ranking of the undergraduate school), but what is missing from the analysis above is the fact that the average GPA at Harvard is 3.65 vs. Ohio State 3.17. This may reflect different student populations but likely not entirely. "Weeding out" students is probably much more prevalent at big state universities than small private schools.

The top schools are churning out many graduates with very high GPAs (Brown 3.63, Yale 3.51) which makes for very solid candidates for graduate/professional schools or the job market. That link mentioned that 95% of Harvard pre-meds are getting into medical school. Nearly 40% of my medical school class (from the late 1990's admittedly) came from Ivies.

Another poster joked how everyone's kid is above average here. I think there's tons of truth to that. Simply having money to invest is not average. Having a 1200 SAT is near the 80% percentile. My non-top 50 state flagship university has an average SAT school around 1300 and an acceptance rate below 50%. That's the ridiculously competitive landscape these days kids are dealing with. Frankly I hate it, so I'm glad to find ways to help my kids with whichever college fits them best (without resorting to bribery!).
NJdad6
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Re: College Expenses

Post by NJdad6 »

ks289 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:05 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 7:41 am
NJdad6 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 6:14 am
celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:52 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
Entirely different topic but that list conflicts with other data. Not an expert but did lots of research on this. In fact those schools might be the worst places to go for med school admission. Many brights students go to these schools for pre-med. Due to curves many are weeded out or do not get the grades needed to get into med school.

I did not go to med school but have learned that very little weight is given to the undergrad school. All else being equal, med schools will take the student with a higher GPA from Ohio State than the student from Harvard. However you want a school that has a good reputation and has access to research, shadowing, etc. where you can be successful. It is also difficult to compare med school acceptance rates by undergrad because it is not an apples to apples comparison.

I spoke to a family friend who is an MD affiliated with one of those schools. He strongly suggested my son not go to his school for pre-med. Medical school is a completely different story.
NJdad6,

And for some school like VCU which started as a medical school, they have a guaranteed admission program.

https://honors.vcu.edu/admissions/prefe ... -medicine/

KlangFool
For medical school admissions I agree that undergraduate GPA matters a great deal (probably more than the reputation/ranking of the undergraduate school), but what is missing from the analysis above is the fact that the average GPA at Harvard is 3.65 vs. Ohio State 3.17. This may reflect different student populations but likely not entirely. "Weeding out" students is probably much more prevalent at big state universities than small private schools.

The top schools are churning out many graduates with very high GPAs (Brown 3.63, Yale 3.51) which makes for very solid candidates for graduate/professional schools or the job market. Nearly 40% of my medical school class (from the late 1990's admittedly) came from Ivies.

Another poster joked how everyone's kid is above average here. I think there's tons of truth to that. Simply having money to invest is not average. Having a 1200 SAT is near the 80% percentile. My non-top 50 state flagship university has an average SAT school around 1300 and an acceptance rate below 50%. That's the ridiculously competitive landscape these days kids are dealing with. Frankly I hate it, so I'm glad to find ways to help my kids with whichever college fits them best (without resorting to bribery!).
Was just an example. Average school GPA is irrelevant. The GPA of an individual applicant is all that matters. It appears that medical schools do not give preferential treatment based on undergrad. So a student at a very competitive school with very bright and motivated students might fall on the wrong side of the curve and be shut out of med school.

I do believe that the ivies/top schools tend to have very bright students who will continue to be well represented in graduate programs.
inbox788
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Re: College Expenses

Post by inbox788 »

FYI, latest Freakonomics episode may interest some:
The $1.5 Trillion Question: How to Fix Student-Loan Debt? (Ep. 377)

If you look at higher education as an industry — which you should, because essentially it is — then you’d have to acknowledge that this industry has been booming. Between 2000 and 2010, undergraduate enrollment at U.S. colleges increased by 37 percent. As demand rose, so did the price: from 2000 to 2016, the average annual cost of college more than doubled, from around $15,000 a year to nearly $32,000. Over the past 20 years, only two other goods or services have risen as much as college. One is hospital services; the other is college textbooks.

Since 1985, college costs have risen four times faster than the Consumer Price Index. Why? There are a number of reasons. One has to do with what economists call Baumol’s cost disease. That’s what happens when salaries rise — in this case, the salaries of college administrators and faculty and staff — without a commensurate rise in productivity. You also see this in the performing arts — and in hospital services, by the way. Even though there’s a lot of technology in hospitals, and in colleges, they still require a lot of real people spending a lot of real hours to get the work done. It’s not like manufacturing, where automation creates efficiencies. It’s not like software, where the millionth copy costs way less to make than the first one did.

Another reason the price of college has risen so much? Because college has become even more valuable. People with a college education have always earned more than those without; but if you look at the data from 1970, and then from 2000, and then from 2015, the earnings gap between workers with and without a college degree has become an earning chasm.
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/student-debt/
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

ks289 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:05 am
KlangFool wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 7:41 am
NJdad6 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 6:14 am
celia wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:52 pm
KlangFool wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:41 pm My son's high school NMF had a full-ride scholarship to study at the University of Virginia. Her parent (my co-worker) took a student loan and send her to Northwestern instead.
If the odds of getting into med school are improved by getting the undergrad degree from Northwestern, that is a reasonable choice, in my opinion: 2018 Best Pre-Med Schools.
Entirely different topic but that list conflicts with other data. Not an expert but did lots of research on this. In fact those schools might be the worst places to go for med school admission. Many brights students go to these schools for pre-med. Due to curves many are weeded out or do not get the grades needed to get into med school.

I did not go to med school but have learned that very little weight is given to the undergrad school. All else being equal, med schools will take the student with a higher GPA from Ohio State than the student from Harvard. However you want a school that has a good reputation and has access to research, shadowing, etc. where you can be successful. It is also difficult to compare med school acceptance rates by undergrad because it is not an apples to apples comparison.

I spoke to a family friend who is an MD affiliated with one of those schools. He strongly suggested my son not go to his school for pre-med. Medical school is a completely different story.
NJdad6,

And for some school like VCU which started as a medical school, they have a guaranteed admission program.

https://honors.vcu.edu/admissions/prefe ... -medicine/

KlangFool
For medical school admissions I agree that undergraduate GPA matters a great deal (probably more than the reputation/ranking of the undergraduate school), but what is missing from the analysis above is the fact that the average GPA at Harvard is 3.65 vs. Ohio State 3.17. This may reflect different student populations but likely not entirely. "Weeding out" students is probably much more prevalent at big state universities than small private schools.
ks289,

In this case,

A) They are all above average students and about equal intelligence. They were from the same high school and peer group.

B) The one that goes to VT has a higher CGPA versus those in Northwestern.

C) Hence, the one in VT gain admission to Med school versus those that went to Northwestern.

KlangFool
inbox788
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Re: College Expenses

Post by inbox788 »

ks289 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:05 amFor medical school admissions I agree that undergraduate GPA matters a great deal (probably more than the reputation/ranking of the undergraduate school), but what is missing from the analysis above is the fact that the average GPA at Harvard is 3.65 vs. Ohio State 3.17. This may reflect different student populations but likely not entirely. "Weeding out" students is probably much more prevalent at big state universities than small private schools.
Here's a sampling of Acceptance Rate and Average GPA. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'm sure admission decision make some sort of school adjustments.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-co ... a-by-major

I'm surprised by the relative selectivity of University of Alabama (1 out of 2), especially since UC San Diego (1 out of 3).

UC San Diego 34.2% 3.14 (2015)
University of Alabama 53.3% 3.13 (2015)
Portland State University 92.0% 3.14 (2011)

What's an admissions committee to do when comparing a students with 3.5 GPA from Ohio State vs Portland State University (9 out of 10) and others. Graduation rates may provide an additional data point, but it's a complicated picture.
ks289
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Re: College Expenses

Post by ks289 »

inbox788 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 3:00 pm
ks289 wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 11:05 amFor medical school admissions I agree that undergraduate GPA matters a great deal (probably more than the reputation/ranking of the undergraduate school), but what is missing from the analysis above is the fact that the average GPA at Harvard is 3.65 vs. Ohio State 3.17. This may reflect different student populations but likely not entirely. "Weeding out" students is probably much more prevalent at big state universities than small private schools.
Here's a sampling of Acceptance Rate and Average GPA. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'm sure admission decision make some sort of school adjustments.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-co ... a-by-major

I'm surprised by the relative selectivity of University of Alabama (1 out of 2), especially since UC San Diego (1 out of 3).

UC San Diego 34.2% 3.14 (2015)
University of Alabama 53.3% 3.13 (2015)
Portland State University 92.0% 3.14 (2011)

What's an admissions committee to do when comparing a students with 3.5 GPA from Ohio State vs Portland State University (9 out of 10) and others. Graduation rates may provide an additional data point, but it's a complicated picture.
Complicated picture for admissions committees. GPA is threshold to be considered for acceptance, but MCAT, letters, interview, research, and clinical experience round out the picture.

GPA averages give you an idea about the institution’s caliber of student and rigor of grading/choice of majors. While some admissions committees may account for differences in grading, this is certainly not universally done. I’ll say that Brown’s open curriculum and very very forgiving grading system can be remarkably helpful for putting together a sparkling GPA and resume for a variety of paths.
GCD
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Re: College Expenses

Post by GCD »

I would imagine eventually grad/professional schools will have to start looking at class rank instead of GPA. My kids are only in HS, but I found out from one of the guidance counselors that a B+ average is 50th percentile at their HS. Grade inflation is a real thing and the higher up the food chain you go academically the more those institutions have to account for it. I know it varies from college to college how much weight they put on GPA and how much on class rank.

It's insane, but I told my kids that right now they kind of need to be aiming for straight A+s. Their school is on a 4.5 grading scale and the break point for top 10% is 4.5.
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

GCD wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:39 am I would imagine eventually grad/professional schools will have to start looking at class rank instead of GPA. My kids are only in HS, but I found out from one of the guidance counselors that a B+ average is 50th percentile at their HS. Grade inflation is a real thing and the higher up the food chain you go academically the more those institutions have to account for it. I know it varies from college to college how much weight they put on GPA and how much on class rank.
GCD,

Why? In term of engineering, none of that matters. It all comes down to what had you done with your skill and knowledge. Aka, what is your portfolio of works and projects that proved your capability? This is what an employer interested in.
So, evolution is more along the line of professional Artist that are taught to create their portfolio of works. Those that know how to do this would not need to rely on the beaten path. Aka, CGPA and the brand name of the university.

My kid's high school classmate in the George Mason University had a job offer in the junior year for cybersecurity.

Something like Open Badges and New-collar worker makes a lot more sense.

https://openbadges.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New-collar_worker

KlangFool
KlangFool
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Re: College Expenses

Post by KlangFool »

GCD wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 8:39 am
It's insane, but I told my kids that right now they kind of need to be aiming for straight A+s. Their school is on a 4.5 grading scale and the break point for top 10% is 4.5.
GCD,

And, how would that help your kid? That would only make them be the top 10%. Why would that be good enough?

Formal education is necessary. But, it is insufficient for success in life. Why put all your eggs (money and effort) only in the formal education basket? There are many paths to success. Pick one where your kids are more likely to be successful.

KlangFool
MMiroir
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Re: College Expenses

Post by MMiroir »

ram wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 9:03 am I paid the full "advertised rate" at Harvard for my daughter.
My son attended Vanderbilt University on full tuition scholarship (merit based). I only paid for room and board. This turned out to be cheaper than the instate premier school.
Maybe you can help us out with a decision. My daughter was just accepted to Vanderbilt and Yale. Vanderbilt came with a full tuition scholarship, and Yale would cost between $100,000 to $150,000 more than Vanderbilt over 4 years (still waiting for the financial aid letter). She intends to study CS and/or Econ at either school. She does not have a strong preference for either school, but wants to go where she will get the best start to her career and the most opportunities in the long run.
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ram
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Re: College Expenses

Post by ram »

My son faced a similar choice and elected to go to Vanderbilt. In your situation I would favor Vanderbilt. It is a "slightly inferior" choice but certainly not 100 K inferior. I may prefer Yale if it was only 25K higher.

Added: Later my daughter went to a 80K med school (full tuition scholarship) rather than a better known 350K med school. She is very happy that she has no educational debt as a young physician now.
Ram
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