Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

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Luckywon
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Luckywon » Thu May 02, 2019 1:58 pm

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:44 pm

However, stock doesn’t cost the company anything. The only reason to do that, would be if they literally wanted to f*** with you. They get no benefit. Assuming you have a decent reputation with your boss and Co-workers, I can’t see them doing that.
Although it's not cash, when a company vests an employee with a stock option, it forgoes the opportunity to sell the stock to underwriters. So there is a cost and it's the same as the value of the options to the employee. That's why it shows up on the company's income statement.

rjbraun
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by rjbraun » Thu May 02, 2019 2:52 pm

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:44 pm
I’ve worked in tech for 20 years. I’ve worked at tech companies as well as traditional (ie insurance, distribution, etc.). My thoughts:

1)I don’t know where you live or how experienced you are, but I assume you are making at least $100,000 per year. That amount of money is not going to have a huge impact on your life if you had to give it up.Tech is a small community and I would never trash my reputation for any amount of money unless it was enough to let me retire.

2)That said, burning bridges is a two-way street. Your boss likely doesn’t want to burn his bridges with you. Once this fact becomes common knowledge within your company, it will piss off a lot of people and they will tell their friends not to work for that company.

3)You probably have a lot of information in your brain that is worth well more than $20k to your company. I’ve gotten calls from old employers months later asking about this or that which I’ve gladly answered. If they walked me out and denied me compensation, I wouldn’t take those calls.

4)I could see a traditional company walking you out to save themselves paying out a bonus. I can’t see a tech company doing that for some of the reasons I noted above. I did work for a traditional company that treated people as expendable and to be fair most of the company would have had a difficult time finding another job with benefits and good pay. Their policy of treating people as expendable worked fine for those people who actually were “expendable”. However, when they tried that crap with IT, lawyers, etc. they figured out really quickly that it wasn’t a good idea.

5)If you were getting a cash bonus, that’s one thing. However, stock doesn’t cost the company anything. The only reason to do that, would be if they literally wanted to f*** with you. They get no benefit. Assuming you have a decent reputation with your boss and Co-workers, I can’t see them doing that.
I'm not sure I agree that stock doesn't cost the company anything. The stock (options) could be reallocated to an employee who is staying. Not saying anything about how OP should proceed, but as a manager I might want to give OP's options to an employee whom I would like to incentivize (putting aside concerns about reputational risk, bad blood with departing employee, etc.).

Thesaints
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Thesaints » Thu May 02, 2019 3:12 pm

wklose99 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:52 pm
I am leaning towards giving them a proper 2 weeks notice pending my new company not allowing me to push the date back one week.
Don't forget to tell us how it goes !

Oakwood42
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Oakwood42 » Thu May 02, 2019 3:41 pm

supersharpie wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:26 am
wklose99 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:22 am
I am leaving my current tech job to move to another tech job and am in an unfortunate position where the new company wants me to start ASAP, but i have options vesting at my current company the Wednesday before my new job starts (on a Monday).

Details are:
-my current job is in a “right to work” state and i have no employment contract
-i have been at this company 4 years and are on good terms w boss/execs, get annual raises and have had a few promos
-my new company is not a competitor with my current company
-i cannot push back the start date at my new job
-the stock options are worth $20,000

If i give a two weeks notice, i risk being fired on the spot and losing my options. If i give a two days notice, i will guarantee my options but it would look really awful and probably burn bridges. I don't plan to work in this space again but one never knows. I feel like I am on good terms w my boss/execs but one never knows when it comes to money.

What should I do?
Give two weeks notice and make it clear that you know you are risking your stock options but are taking this action because it is right thing to do.
+1

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wklose99
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by wklose99 » Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm

Okay so I was just able to finagle pushing my start date back a week, so I will be able to give at least a 10 days notice before my resignation, so that takes considerable pressure off my shoulders.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions, some very creative ideas in this thread :P

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dm200
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by dm200 » Thu May 02, 2019 4:46 pm

wklose99 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:22 am
I am leaving my current tech job to move to another tech job and am in an unfortunate position where the new company wants me to start ASAP, but i have options vesting at my current company the Wednesday before my new job starts (on a Monday).
Details are:
-my current job is in a “right to work” state and i have no employment contract
-i have been at this company 4 years and are on good terms w boss/execs, get annual raises and have had a few promos
-my new company is not a competitor with my current company
-i cannot push back the start date at my new job
-the stock options are worth $20,000
If i give a two weeks notice, i risk being fired on the spot and losing my options. If i give a two days notice, i will guarantee my options but it would look really awful and probably burn bridges. I don't plan to work in this space again but one never knows. I feel like I am on good terms w my boss/execs but one never knows when it comes to money.

What should I do?
In a previous tech job (for a MegaCorp), it was very common (not 100%, though) that when you gave two weeks notice - they walked you out the door immediately AND that day was your last day of employment. In these cases - you were not paid for the two week notice period.

Why can't you push back the start date of the new job? $20,000 is a lot to risk losing. Employers do not always get what they want. Seems to me that the only safe thing to do is wait until the options vest - and then give notice.

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dm200
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by dm200 » Thu May 02, 2019 4:46 pm

wklose99 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm
Okay so I was just able to finagle pushing my start date back a week, so I will be able to give at least a 10 days notice before my resignation, so that takes considerable pressure off my shoulders.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions, some very creative ideas in this thread :P
Posts crossed! Glad it is working out!

ImUrHuckleberry
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by ImUrHuckleberry » Thu May 02, 2019 4:59 pm

This would normally be handled similar to fielding job offers just before bonus time. i.e. - the new company either pays the bonus or postpones the start date so that you can collect your bonus before leaving. Should have been handled in negotiations as others mentioned.

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Shackleton
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Shackleton » Thu May 02, 2019 6:13 pm

I recently had a similar situation, but I was leaving for a direct competitor, so I knew I would be walked out the door immediately upon giving my notice. What I wasn't sure about was whether they would pay me for the 2 weeks notice. Lying about where I was going wasn't an option for me since I value my integrity. I had signed the employment contract with the new company in mid October, but knew I needed to be employed at my old company through the end of November to receive my bonus (worth about $55k). I informed my new company that I could be available with 2 weeks notice if they were willing to give me a signing bonus equal to the bonus I'd receive from my old company. They decided that while I was a valuable addition to their team, they could wait the extra 6 weeks rather than pay the $55k. On the final day required for employment at my old company to receive my bonus, I gave notice and was walked out after going through the normal "resignation process" and my employment was ended ON THAT DAY. No payout of the 2 week notice. This is a Fortune 500 company, with very good policies, but since I was going to a competitor, the standard was to end employment on that day and not pay for the 2 weeks. I kind of expected that, and actually started work 1 week later at the new company. The moral to the story is that you really don't know how they will handle it until they actually deal with you, and so I'd look out for yourself. On a side note I've since spoken to my old boss and he says if I ever want to come back, the door is open, so there were no hard feelings. It's just business.
“Superhuman effort isn't worth a damn unless it achieves results.” ~Ernest Shackleton

mchampse
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mchampse » Thu May 02, 2019 7:32 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:58 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:44 pm

However, stock doesn’t cost the company anything. The only reason to do that, would be if they literally wanted to f*** with you. They get no benefit. Assuming you have a decent reputation with your boss and Co-workers, I can’t see them doing that.
Although it's not cash, when a company vests an employee with a stock option, it forgoes the opportunity to sell the stock to underwriters. So there is a cost and it's the same as the value of the options to the employee. That's why it shows up on the company's income statement.
I should have said it doesn’t cost them much. A company can always create more stock when they want to. It dilutes the existing shares, but I’ve never seen that stop anyone.

MotoTrojan
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu May 02, 2019 7:41 pm

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:32 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:58 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:44 pm

However, stock doesn’t cost the company anything. The only reason to do that, would be if they literally wanted to f*** with you. They get no benefit. Assuming you have a decent reputation with your boss and Co-workers, I can’t see them doing that.
Although it's not cash, when a company vests an employee with a stock option, it forgoes the opportunity to sell the stock to underwriters. So there is a cost and it's the same as the value of the options to the employee. That's why it shows up on the company's income statement.
I should have said it doesn’t cost them much. A company can always create more stock when they want to. It dilutes the existing shares, but I’ve never seen that stop anyone.
How is dilution any different than an additional expense line-item (cash bonus)?

mchampse
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mchampse » Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:41 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:32 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:58 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:44 pm

However, stock doesn’t cost the company anything. The only reason to do that, would be if they literally wanted to f*** with you. They get no benefit. Assuming you have a decent reputation with your boss and Co-workers, I can’t see them doing that.
Although it's not cash, when a company vests an employee with a stock option, it forgoes the opportunity to sell the stock to underwriters. So there is a cost and it's the same as the value of the options to the employee. That's why it shows up on the company's income statement.
I should have said it doesn’t cost them much. A company can always create more stock when they want to. It dilutes the existing shares, but I’ve never seen that stop anyone.
How is dilution any different than an additional expense line-item (cash bonus)?
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything. My wife got a RSU grant of 100% of her annual salary. And she makes a good salary and works for a well established tech company.

Thesaints
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Thesaints » Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.

Luckywon
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Luckywon » Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm

Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.

mchampse
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mchampse » Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.
RSUs are given out over a 4 year vesting period. It’s tough to tell your landlord, “hey, for rent will you accept some stock that you can’t sell for a year and if I leave the company, I lose that stock so you’ll get nothing.”

I’ve only been in the tech industry fo 20 years so what do I know?

mchampse
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mchampse » Thu May 02, 2019 9:19 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.
The accounting cost is that there are slightly more shares outstanding and the earnings per share goes down ever so slightly. Let’s say you give $100M of bonuses for a company with $10B market cap, and 1B shares outstanding worth $10 each and profit before bonuses of $500M. EPS is 50 cents before bonus. EPS is 49.5 cents as an RSU grant of 10M shares and 40 cents paying out $100M in cash. Then there’s the favorable accounting/tax treatment, etc.

Luckywon
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Luckywon » Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 pm

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.
RSUs are given out over a 4 year vesting period. It’s tough to tell your landlord, “hey, for rent will you accept some stock that you can’t sell for a year and if I leave the company, I lose that stock so you’ll get nothing.”
Not sure about this conversation with the landlord but how about this one:

Human Resources Manager: "Hey I have a great idea for us to keep the best and the brightest. Let's give $50k bonuses in stock options to everyone this year. Won't cost much!"
CFO: :oops:
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm


I’ve only been in the tech industry fo 20 years so what do I know?
I'm sure you know a lot about the tech industry, just based on your first post in this thread which made what appear to me to be really great points (I am not in the tech industry) and I'm sure OP found helpful. About accounting of stock options, I think it's possible you may have a misconception. Or maybe I do. I'm not an accountant either. Anyway, apparently we disagree which is fine and my comment about the rest of your post appearing excellent to me is sincere.

random_walker_77
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by random_walker_77 » Thu May 02, 2019 9:29 pm

What's the word on how previous resignees were handled at your company? In my opinion, the obligation runs both ways. If they were fired on the spot, then at this company, there's no moral obligation to give 2 weeks notice.

JBeck
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by JBeck » Thu May 02, 2019 9:48 pm

My vote is for the 2 day notice, 20K is too big of a risk to take.

mchampse
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mchampse » Thu May 02, 2019 10:50 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.
RSUs are given out over a 4 year vesting period. It’s tough to tell your landlord, “hey, for rent will you accept some stock that you can’t sell for a year and if I leave the company, I lose that stock so you’ll get nothing.”
Not sure about this conversation with the landlord but how about this one:

Human Resources Manager: "Hey I have a great idea for us to keep the best and the brightest. Let's give $50k bonuses in stock options to everyone this year. Won't cost much!"
CFO: :oops:
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm


I’ve only been in the tech industry fo 20 years so what do I know?
I'm sure you know a lot about the tech industry, just based on your first post in this thread which made what appear to me to be really great points (I am not in the tech industry) and I'm sure OP found helpful. About accounting of stock options, I think it's possible you may have a misconception. Or maybe I do. I'm not an accountant either. Anyway, apparently we disagree which is fine and my comment about the rest of your post appearing excellent to me is sincere.
Thanks for the compliment.

Bonuses are paid in RSU these days, not cash. My wife got an RSU grant equal to her salary as a bonus. Now her boss loves her, and I would assume that most people got less than that. That said, if a manager is giving a grant of 100% of salary I have to wonder what they themselves are getting. So yes, the scenario you’ve envisioned is a reality.

To my understanding, the whole Amazon made $11B and paid no federal income tax is in large part due to RSUs. On their income tax returns, they get to deduct RSUs they give out as an expense, while on the earnings they show Wall Street they don’t. (I.e. their RSU grants were close to 100% of profit reported to Wall Street)

Now if I ruled the world, companies would have to show RSUs as an expense for the full value of the stock. Some companies buyback their stock in part to give out as RSUs, but they don’t have to account for it that way. Remember that profit is different from cash flow. This all also works due to P/E ratios greater than 1. In my example the company had a p/e of 20. If their p/e was around 1, the stock grant and cash award would net to a much closer EPS.

iudiehard1
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by iudiehard1 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:00 pm

So, let me get this straight. You are going to screw the company that has graciously given you 20k in options for the company that is screwing you by not being flexible with your start date?
Proverbs 13:20 - Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm.

Luckywon
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Luckywon » Thu May 02, 2019 11:15 pm

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:50 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm


That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.
RSUs are given out over a 4 year vesting period. It’s tough to tell your landlord, “hey, for rent will you accept some stock that you can’t sell for a year and if I leave the company, I lose that stock so you’ll get nothing.”
Not sure about this conversation with the landlord but how about this one:

Human Resources Manager: "Hey I have a great idea for us to keep the best and the brightest. Let's give $50k bonuses in stock options to everyone this year. Won't cost much!"
CFO: :oops:
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm


I’ve only been in the tech industry fo 20 years so what do I know?
I'm sure you know a lot about the tech industry, just based on your first post in this thread which made what appear to me to be really great points (I am not in the tech industry) and I'm sure OP found helpful. About accounting of stock options, I think it's possible you may have a misconception. Or maybe I do. I'm not an accountant either. Anyway, apparently we disagree which is fine and my comment about the rest of your post appearing excellent to me is sincere.
Thanks for the compliment.

Bonuses are paid in RSU these days, not cash. My wife got an RSU grant equal to her salary as a bonus. Now her boss loves her, and I would assume that most people got less than that. That said, if a manager is giving a grant of 100% of salary I have to wonder what they themselves are getting. So yes, the scenario you’ve envisioned is a reality.

To my understanding, the whole Amazon made $11B and paid no federal income tax is in large part due to RSUs. On their income tax returns, they get to deduct RSUs they give out as an expense, while on the earnings they show Wall Street they don’t. (I.e. their RSU grants were close to 100% of profit reported to Wall Street)

Now if I ruled the world, companies would have to show RSUs as an expense for the full value of the stock. Some companies buyback their stock in part to give out as RSUs, but they don’t have to account for it that way. Remember that profit is different from cash flow. This all also works due to P/E ratios greater than 1. In my example the company had a p/e of 20. If their p/e was around 1, the stock grant and cash award would net to a much closer EPS.
Very interesting, and a foreign world to me!

Patzer
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Patzer » Thu May 02, 2019 11:35 pm

Push back your start date 1 week.
They already invested a lot of time and energy into finding you and they aren't going to give that up just because they have to wait 1 more week.
Vest, Sell, and then Give 7 days notice.
That way your vest is guaranteed, and 7 days is enough to not burn bridges, maybe just raise a few eyebrows.

If they give you push back just say, "I need an extra week to set my current employer up for success without me. I am sure that if we part ways at some point in the distant future, that you would want me to do the same thing for you."

MikeG62
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Location: New Jersey

Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by MikeG62 » Fri May 03, 2019 7:48 am

mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:50 pm

To my understanding, the whole Amazon made $11B and paid no federal income tax is in large part due to RSUs. On their income tax returns, they get to deduct RSUs they give out as an expense, while on the earnings they show Wall Street they don’t. (I.e. their RSU grants were close to 100% of profit reported to Wall Street)
Under US GAAP, the FMV of Restricted Stock Grants are indeed an expense (non-cash although it might be) which is amortized over the vesting term in the income statement.

Having said that, some companies in presenting their earnings to investors used to (others probably still do) exclude stock-based compensation as if it's somehow not an expense. As time has gone by, this has increasingly played poorly on Wall Street. In fact, it appears that Amazon back in 2016 stopped excluding stock-based compensation from it's (pro forma) earnings presented to the street. See here...

https://www.investors.com/news/technolo ... rmal-cost/

There was a lot of pressure a few years ago to get companies to end this practice. This includes the the publishing of the Commonsense Governance Principals from the group of mega-corp CEO's back in 2016 (which called out the exclusion of stock-based comp as a major distortion of earnings). Buffett has been a longstanding voice against this practice as well. See here...

http://fortune.com/2016/02/27/warren-bu ... -earnings/


FWIW, I was the former Chief Accountant for a multi-billion NYSE listed public company for a decade (a period spanning the period before stock options were required to be expensed and after the adoption of FAS 123R). I was not in the tech industry though and I think the (pro-forma) exclusion of stock-based comp even after the adoption of FAS123R was more prevalent in the tech industry than most other industries. I do think it's no longer common practice among tech companies (yes some still do it), but honestly I've been retired for 4 years now and am not very close to this stuff any longer.

Sorry to take this discussion off topic, but I wanted to clarify the comment that was made above.

wklose99 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm
Okay so I was just able to finagle pushing my start date back a week, so I will be able to give at least a 10 days notice before my resignation, so that takes considerable pressure off my shoulders.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions, some very creative ideas in this thread :P
OP, congratulations. Sounds like a good compromise. Good luck in your new position.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience

HomeStretch
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by HomeStretch » Fri May 03, 2019 8:19 am

OP, congrats on new job and working out a 10-day notice period. If you can’t complete the transition at your current employer in 10 days and if it help avoid “burning bridges”, you could offer to come in on a weekend or be available by phone (assuming your current manager/co-workers have been good to you and no one walks you out the door on the day you give notice). Good luck!

bampf
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by bampf » Fri May 03, 2019 8:22 am

origami wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:39 pm
TexasPE wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:31 pm
Post by investingdad » Thu May 02, 2019 12:04 pm

Give 2 weeks notice day after they vest, if they walk you out, perfect.

Take all the vacation you have immediately after giving notice.

Start new job on time.
This
It could easily be illegal to have two full time jobs at the same time. People just love to give bad advice.
What could you possibly be talking about? Do you mean criminal? Please cite. Do you mean civil? In the US?

Luckywon
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:33 am

Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Luckywon » Fri May 03, 2019 8:30 am

MikeG62 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 7:48 am
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:50 pm

To my understanding, the whole Amazon made $11B and paid no federal income tax is in large part due to RSUs. On their income tax returns, they get to deduct RSUs they give out as an expense, while on the earnings they show Wall Street they don’t. (I.e. their RSU grants were close to 100% of profit reported to Wall Street)
Under US GAAP, the FMV of Restricted Stock Grants are indeed an expense (non-cash although it might be) which is amortized over the vesting term in the income statement.

Having said that, some companies in presenting their earnings to investors used to (others probably still do) exclude stock-based compensation as if it's somehow not an expense. As time has gone by, this has increasingly played poorly on Wall Street. In fact, it appears that Amazon back in 2016 stopped excluding stock-based compensation from it's (pro forma) earnings presented to the street. See here...

https://www.investors.com/news/technolo ... rmal-cost/

There was a lot of pressure a few years ago to get companies to end this practice. This includes the the publishing of the Commonsense Governance Principals from the group of mega-corp CEO's back in 2016 (which called out the exclusion of stock-based comp as a major distortion of earnings). Buffett has been a longstanding voice against this practice as well. See here...

http://fortune.com/2016/02/27/warren-bu ... -earnings/


FWIW, I was the former Chief Accountant for a multi-billion NYSE listed public company for a decade (a period spanning the period before stock options were required to be expensed and after the adoption of FAS 123R). I was not in the tech industry though and I think the (pro-forma) exclusion of stock-based comp even after the adoption of FAS123R was more prevalent in the tech industry than most other industries. I do think it's no longer common practice among tech companies (yes some still do it), but honestly I've been retired for 4 years now and am not very close to this stuff any longer.


Great information, thank you!

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by 8foot7 » Fri May 03, 2019 8:37 am

Glad you got it worked out OP. For posterity I would have voted for going with less notice but more documentation prior to your leaving with less notice (as in, excruciatingly detailed transition memos, great walkthroughs, maybe even videos and FAQs) which would be noticed by your colleagues and remembered long after you quit. 20K is too much to give up.

I don't know exactly where that line is, where I'd walk away from amounts in order to give a full courtesy notice, but 20K is above it.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by ddurrett896 » Fri May 03, 2019 8:45 am

2 day notice.

Tell your current company you tried to negotiate a 2 week start date but they wouldn't budge.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by JBTX » Fri May 03, 2019 8:51 am

For $20k, I would wait to give notice. I wouldn't risk it. The question is maintaining good relations with your former employer worth $20k? I'd probably opt for the $20k, but recognize bridges will have been burned.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by HornedToad » Fri May 03, 2019 8:52 am

Shackleton wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:13 pm
I recently had a similar situation, but I was leaving for a direct competitor, so I knew I would be walked out the door immediately upon giving my notice. What I wasn't sure about was whether they would pay me for the 2 weeks notice. Lying about where I was going wasn't an option for me since I value my integrity. I had signed the employment contract with the new company in mid October, but knew I needed to be employed at my old company through the end of November to receive my bonus (worth about $55k). I informed my new company that I could be available with 2 weeks notice if they were willing to give me a signing bonus equal to the bonus I'd receive from my old company. They decided that while I was a valuable addition to their team, they could wait the extra 6 weeks rather than pay the $55k. On the final day required for employment at my old company to receive my bonus, I gave notice and was walked out after going through the normal "resignation process" and my employment was ended ON THAT DAY. No payout of the 2 week notice. This is a Fortune 500 company, with very good policies, but since I was going to a competitor, the standard was to end employment on that day and not pay for the 2 weeks. I kind of expected that, and actually started work 1 week later at the new company. The moral to the story is that you really don't know how they will handle it until they actually deal with you, and so I'd look out for yourself. On a side note I've since spoken to my old boss and he says if I ever want to come back, the door is open, so there were no hard feelings. It's just business.
This would be very unusual for a tech company with how much employees move around. I would argue it is also unusual even in well run normal companies because you are building a norm where employees shouldn’t and won’t give two week notices and that is FAR more useful for companies in the long run than 2 week salaries.

An easy way to assess this is if your company gives severance for lay offs. If so, they probably recognize actions matter and not screw you on it

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Tracker968 » Fri May 03, 2019 4:28 pm

I was going to recommend giving two weeks notice but at the same time show your transition plan. A day by day plan showing how you will transfer your knowledge to other employees. Of course you would arrange it to take the whole two weeks. I think this would work since you state you are on good terms with your current employer.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by sergeant » Fri May 03, 2019 4:34 pm

bampf wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:22 am
origami wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:39 pm
TexasPE wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:31 pm
Post by investingdad » Thu May 02, 2019 12:04 pm

Give 2 weeks notice day after they vest, if they walk you out, perfect.

Take all the vacation you have immediately after giving notice.

Start new job on time.
This
It could easily be illegal to have two full time jobs at the same time. People just love to give bad advice.
What could you possibly be talking about? Do you mean criminal? Please cite. Do you mean civil? In the US?
+1. In my 32 years in law enforcement I never arrested anyone for having two jobs!
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mrspock » Fri May 03, 2019 4:50 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:59 pm
Thesaints wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:53 pm
mchampse wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:51 pm
In a theoretical sense you are correct. But going back to the OPs dilemma, HR departments don’t think of them as costing their companies anything.
That maybe, but the accounting department certainly begs to differ.
And this fails the common sense test as if the cost were anything less than cash, the majority of compensation would be in this form.
For reference, for many of us (senior folks) in tech it’s exactly that. The reasoning is a bit different though, for senior engineers/managers our blast radius is big enough that the company can do poorly if we make poor decisions. So the idea is to make sure our comp is adequately aligned with the company’s overall financial health/trajectory.

If the company wins, we win, if it loses we lose. I’ve been on both sides of this, and I can say it has the desired effect. Having things vest over years also makes sure we aren’t optimizing for the short term as well (if only Wall Street did this too? Hmmm).

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by ccieemeritus » Sat May 04, 2019 12:17 am

The OP said that the new company is not a competitor to the old company.

I've seen multiple people walked out the door of tech companies when giving notice because they went to "sensitive competitors".

In one case (many years ago) the job transition was Cisco -> Juniper so that makes sense. Direct product competitors.

In another case the "sensitive competitor" was due to repeated recruiting. Company B had recently hired a bunch of company A's employees. A friend of mine at company A gave notice saying she'd go to company B in 2 weeks. This was even with a critical project finishing up at company A in 1 week which she was managing. IMO it was nice of her to stay to finish up that project. But she was immediately walked out the door. Company B had hired too many of company A's employees.

In these cases the official termination date was usually "the next day" because CA law requires a final paycheck when terminating someone. But their badge and remote access was immediately revoked and the final paycheck came from HR federal express priority 1.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by KyleAAA » Sat May 04, 2019 12:33 am

I've never heard of anybody being fired for giving 2 weeks notice. Being walked out and asked not to return is not uncommon, but they are still employed and paid with benefits for the notice period. Think of it as a free vacation.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by mighty72 » Sat May 04, 2019 12:40 am

OP says good relationship with manager/execs at current company and not going to a competitor. I don't see you getting fired in any case unless you deal with some very sensitive/confidential information. Even in that case, you will probably be asked not to come for work for 2 weeks.
In a lot of companies, HR asks a lot of a questions from the manager if notice is less than 2 weeks. When I left my last job, I gave a 2 week notice and took a week off to keep things under cover till all affected parties were notified.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by MikeG62 » Sat May 04, 2019 7:26 am

sergeant wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:34 pm
bampf wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:22 am
origami wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:39 pm
TexasPE wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:31 pm
Post by investingdad » Thu May 02, 2019 12:04 pm

Give 2 weeks notice day after they vest, if they walk you out, perfect.

Take all the vacation you have immediately after giving notice.

Start new job on time.
This
It could easily be illegal to have two full time jobs at the same time. People just love to give bad advice.
What could you possibly be talking about? Do you mean criminal? Please cite. Do you mean civil? In the US?
+1. In my 32 years in law enforcement I never arrested anyone for having two jobs!
I don't know if it's illegal per se, but it may be a violation of company policy (and may depend on the nature of the second job). I personally saw a senior marketing director get walked out the door because he was moonlighting as an executive of a small (start-up) company. I believe this was something he was doing nights and/or weekends. Not a competitor company as far as I recall. He was an excellent employee too. Was sad to see him go.
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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by dm200 » Sat May 04, 2019 8:55 am

KyleAAA wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 12:33 am
I've never heard of anybody being fired for giving 2 weeks notice. Being walked out and asked not to return is not uncommon, but they are still employed and paid with benefits for the notice period. Think of it as a free vacation.
As (I think) I posted before, when I was employed by a MegaCorp in the 1980's, it was common (in my division) for employees who gave two weeks notice to be walked out the door that day - and that day was the last paid day of employment. that came as a surprise to some folks - so when the word got around, others knew what could happen and were prepared. In general, though, employers typically pay the two weeks - even if they walk you out the door.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by ImUrHuckleberry » Sat May 04, 2019 9:05 am

I once worked for a company that fired some people on the day they gave notice. Didn't take long for the remaining employees to adjust our plans. They actually had the nerve to tell some people that they were unprofessional for not giving 2 weeks.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Bfwolf » Sat May 04, 2019 9:35 am

OP, glad it worked out for you.

If you had not been able to push back your start date, I would have gone with the 2 day notice, though 9 days is obviously considerably better.

FWIW, a colleague once quit with 0 days notice for this very reason. His boss was highly annoyed. The rest of us understood. He was a good worker and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him.

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Re: Giving two week's notice before stock options vest

Post by Sourc3 » Sat May 04, 2019 10:44 am

If it is a Fortune 50/100 company, telling your manager in your next 1:1 meeting is the right thing to do without sending a written email etc. In companies where there is a real HR department (not a single person pretending to do so) the headache they will get from getting sued over wrongful firing is more costly than the $20K they will pay you and it's not like your boss is paying this out of his/her own pocket. I do not think he will care.

Keep in mind that, you may not be working there again but you don't know if you will be working with people who are in the network of your manager. If you are truly in the tech field, the network is not as big as you may think. People are connected. I would expect a heads up from my reports if they are about to leave otherwise you're leaving your manager in a really bad spot. I think there is generally a very high level of distrust on the forum regarding management.

If you have 0 trust and you think you will be retaliated against by getting fired on the spot, why not go all the way? Meaning, take a few sick days/personals days out to give yourself the mental space you need between jobs and then simply drop an email. From my perspective, I would only do this in a hostile environment.

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