Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

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GerryL
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by GerryL »

markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:43 am The company is Northwestern Mutual.
Have you tried working with a broker rather than a salesperson? A broker will look at offerings from several (not all) companies and can work with you on your specific needs.
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sergeant
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by sergeant »

When I did my research the sweet spot for obtaining LTC in my situation was in my early 50's. If you're going to get it than get it now. My goal is to just keep paying premiums and NEVER using it. I'm not looking for a payback. I hope not to use my homeowners fire policy as well as my auto policy or my umbrella policy.
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beyou
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by beyou »

I was just reading about hybrid policies. Seems the main advantage, if you can fund upfront, is to lock in a price for a level of coverage.
Traditional policies you face annual increases, but if prepaid, no payments ever again. And you also get a life benefit, should you pass younger,
and never use the LTC benefits. Seems a win-win ! Many would not be thrilled about the upfront payment, but if the insurance company is highly rated, and the cash was available, seems a better alternative to consider.
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markcoop
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by markcoop »

sergeant wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:03 pm I have 5% just like yours but only for the first 15 years
celia wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:10 pm The premiums didn't increase each year after that because of the inflation factor. But, usually it is only good for 15 or 20 years of inflation coverage, then the maximum monthly benefit freezes.
I have a hard time understanding stopping the inflation rider after 15 years. I probably am most likely to need the insurance in my 80s maybe 30 years after I would be getting it. I would hate for it not to cover what I expect for it to cover when I need it most. This is one of my hesitations buying this insurance at all. My insurance person told me that people don't get the inflation rider for too many years because it is too expensive. That to me means the insurance overall is to expensive to cover what I want it to cover.
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chambers136
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by chambers136 »

markcoop wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:50 pm 4. The policy quoted to me, which he said was typical, only covers 3 years worth claims (you can use it over a longer period). This also seems crazy. Again, if true catastrophe strikes, the reason why one buys insurance, the insurance is not there.
This is the one that's keeping us from buying any LTC insurance. We can handle 3 years without insurance. It's the longer time period I'd be interested in.
neilpilot
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by neilpilot »

chambers136 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:24 pm
markcoop wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:50 pm 4. The policy quoted to me, which he said was typical, only covers 3 years worth claims (you can use it over a longer period). This also seems crazy. Again, if true catastrophe strikes, the reason why one buys insurance, the insurance is not there.
This is the one that's keeping us from buying any LTC insurance. We can handle 3 years without insurance. It's the longer time period I'd be interested in.
I see this comment made in other LTCi threads as well, but it seems somewhat illogical to me. You say you can handle 3 years without insurance, but are interested in covering a longer period? Let's say you want to be able to handle 5-6 years of LTC......you have that covered if you insure for 3 years, so long as you plan to use your existing assets for the other 2-3 years.

So what am I missing?
Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

neilpilot wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:32 pm
chambers136 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:24 pm
markcoop wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:50 pm 4. The policy quoted to me, which he said was typical, only covers 3 years worth claims (you can use it over a longer period). This also seems crazy. Again, if true catastrophe strikes, the reason why one buys insurance, the insurance is not there.
This is the one that's keeping us from buying any LTC insurance. We can handle 3 years without insurance. It's the longer time period I'd be interested in.
I see this comment made in other LTCi threads as well, but it seems somewhat illogical to me. You say you can handle 3 years without insurance, but are interested in covering a longer period? Let's say you want to be able to handle 5-6 years of LTC......you have that covered if you insure for 3 years, so long as you plan to use your existing assets for the other 2-3 years.

So what am I missing?
My great aunt is 96 years old, she has been in a LTC facility for at least a decade. She is cognitively impaired. Her physical health is still astute, her doctor says she probably has many years of life left in her.

That is what people are concerned about. i personally would be interested in a policy with a 3 year deductible, and cover for life.
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markcoop
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by markcoop »

A few posters, as well as myself, mentioned they would be interested in a policy that had a 3 year deductible. Currently, I was told the largest deductibles are 1 year. Perhaps in the future insurance companies may find it profitable to offer such policies, especially because the odds of needing insurance for greater than 3 years is not that high. This is one of the reasons I am considering waiting for a few years.
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Soon2BXProgrammer
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:56 pm A few posters, as well as myself, mentioned they would be interested in a policy that had a 3 year deductible. Currently, I was told the largest deductibles are 1 year. Perhaps in the future insurance companies may find it profitable to offer such policies, especially because the odds of needing insurance for greater than 3 years is not that high. This is one of the reasons I am considering waiting for a few years.
agreed, ideally with a 3 year deductible, the premiums would be reasonable, as the likelihood of payout would be lower.

Currently LTCi is more prepaid 3 years of LTC.. not insurance. Or atleast that is what it seems like.
MindBogler
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by MindBogler »

A better question is if you need LTC insurance at all. I've seen many of my relatives pass recently and given what I witnessed it's typically a few days of hospice before it over. Anything could happen in the future but I am going to plan for a future that is similar to my blood relatives. I'll take my chances.
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celia
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by celia »

markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:15 pm I have a hard time understanding stopping the inflation rider after 15 years. I probably am most likely to need the insurance in my 80s maybe 30 years after I would be getting it. I would hate for it not to cover what I expect for it to cover when I need it most. This is one of my hesitations buying this insurance at all. My insurance person told me that people don't get the inflation rider for too many years because it is too expensive. That to me means the insurance overall is to expensive to cover what I want it to cover.
Like you said, the insurance premiums are too expensive if the inflation factor keeps increasing until you are admitted. If you buy insurance that covers $10K of Nursing Home at today's prices, in 15 years with an inflation factor of 3%, it will cover $15K a month, then freeze at that amount. If you don't need care for 30 years, the care may cost $23,000 per month but the insurance will pay for $15K of it. That is what would happen on my plan and I would pay the rest of the cost.

Meanwhile, the part of the increased payment I don't have to pay can be saved and used to cover the gap or for my heirs. At least I will have a baseline coverage and my heirs will have an incentive to put me somewhere more cost effective than the Ritz Assisted Living home. (I can share a double room. With my cognitive decline, I will wake up and meet a new friend each day!) :sharebeer
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sergeant
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by sergeant »

markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:15 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:03 pm I have 5% just like yours but only for the first 15 years
celia wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:10 pm The premiums didn't increase each year after that because of the inflation factor. But, usually it is only good for 15 or 20 years of inflation coverage, then the maximum monthly benefit freezes.
I have a hard time understanding stopping the inflation rider after 15 years. I probably am most likely to need the insurance in my 80s maybe 30 years after I would be getting it. I would hate for it not to cover what I expect for it to cover when I need it most. This is one of my hesitations buying this insurance at all. My insurance person told me that people don't get the inflation rider for too many years because it is too expensive. That to me means the insurance overall is to expensive to cover what I want it to cover.
I'm far less concerned with needing LTC in my 80's than in my 50's or 60's. In my 80's I would expect to only need it for a short period compared to being disabled decades earlier. My policy covers 12k a month when purchased and has a 5% yearly inflation for 15 years. If care costs more, than our portfolio will have no problem paying the difference. We can afford to self-insure a couple decades for one of us. We can not afford to self-insure for 3 or 4 decades for both of us. That's why we have LTC insurance.
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beyou
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by beyou »

But most policies only pay for a few years of care, so not sure why you think an event in 50s is more urgent to insure. You could use your entire benefit then what ? You have no insurance for the rest of your life if your recover.


These policies just seem too expensive and not designed to cover a catastrophe, just a bit more than “average” expenses.

I briefly looked into hybrid coverage mainly so you can prepay at a fixed cost for a fixed payout, rather than wonder about unlimited premium increases every year. I was told only 2 ins companies sell such policies in my state. First one was Mass Mutual, but it was confusing. Seemed to be a possibility of variable cost for the LTC coverage, fixed cost only for the life component. Lincoln National is the other, they are not rated so great. Rating seems important for such a long term relationship.
Last edited by beyou on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
marcopolo
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by marcopolo »

sergeant wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:51 pm
markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:15 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:03 pm I have 5% just like yours but only for the first 15 years
celia wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:10 pm The premiums didn't increase each year after that because of the inflation factor. But, usually it is only good for 15 or 20 years of inflation coverage, then the maximum monthly benefit freezes.
I have a hard time understanding stopping the inflation rider after 15 years. I probably am most likely to need the insurance in my 80s maybe 30 years after I would be getting it. I would hate for it not to cover what I expect for it to cover when I need it most. This is one of my hesitations buying this insurance at all. My insurance person told me that people don't get the inflation rider for too many years because it is too expensive. That to me means the insurance overall is to expensive to cover what I want it to cover.
I'm far less concerned with needing LTC in my 80's than in my 50's or 60's. In my 80's I would expect to only need it for a short period compared to being disabled decades earlier. My policy covers 12k a month when purchased and has a 5% yearly inflation for 15 years. If care costs more, than our portfolio will have no problem paying the difference. We can afford to self-insure a couple decades for one of us. We can not afford to self-insure for 3 or 4 decades for both of us. That's why we have LTC insurance.
What type of policy do you have, will it insure both of you for 3 or 4 decades? That would be an unusual policy.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
wolf359
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by wolf359 »

beyou wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:58 pm I was just reading about hybrid policies. Seems the main advantage, if you can fund upfront, is to lock in a price for a level of coverage.
Traditional policies you face annual increases, but if prepaid, no payments ever again. And you also get a life benefit, should you pass younger,
and never use the LTC benefits. Seems a win-win ! Many would not be thrilled about the upfront payment, but if the insurance company is highly rated, and the cash was available, seems a better alternative to consider.
I've been researching this as well. They appear to be whole life (permanent) policies that could be paid upfront. At that point, they don't expire. They have a long-term care rider. They're then a life insurance policy that pays off if you die. If you qualify for the LTC benefits, the benefits are paid out of the life insurance proceeds. If you then die with benefits left over, your heirs get what's left over.

The point of the life insurance contract is to fund the LTC. If you don't need the LTC, you get the life insurance coverage.

I haven't gotten as far as getting quotes. I'm not sure how these compare to more typical policies.
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beyou
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by beyou »

wolf359 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:28 pm
beyou wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:58 pm I was just reading about hybrid policies. Seems the main advantage, if you can fund upfront, is to lock in a price for a level of coverage.
Traditional policies you face annual increases, but if prepaid, no payments ever again. And you also get a life benefit, should you pass younger,
and never use the LTC benefits. Seems a win-win ! Many would not be thrilled about the upfront payment, but if the insurance company is highly rated, and the cash was available, seems a better alternative to consider.
I've been researching this as well. They appear to be whole life (permanent) policies that could be paid upfront. At that point, they don't expire. They have a long-term care rider. They're then a life insurance policy that pays off if you die. If you qualify for the LTC benefits, the benefits are paid out of the life insurance proceeds. If you then die with benefits left over, your heirs get what's left over.

The point of the life insurance contract is to fund the LTC. If you don't need the LTC, you get the life insurance coverage.

I haven't gotten as far as getting quotes. I'm not sure how these compare to more typical policies.
From what I read, they coverage for LTC is lower than if you buy just LTC (60-75% off cost of care).
That said, since you have no idea what you are really paying for traditional LTC, higher coverage is little consolation.
You get more but pay how much more ??? Anyone's guess.
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queso
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by queso »

beyou wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:35 pm But most policies only pay for a few years of care, so not sure why you think an event in 50s is more urgent to insure. You could use your entire benefit then what ? You have no insurance for the rest of your life if your recover.


These policies just seem too expensive and not designed to cover a catastrophe, just a bit more than “average” expenses.

I briefly looked into hybrid coverage mainly so you can prepay at a fixed cost for a fixed payout, rather than wonder about unlimited premium increases every year. I was told only 2 ins companies sell such policies in my state. First one was Mass Mutual, but it was confusing. Seemed to be a possibility of variable cost for the LTC coverage, fixed cost only for the life component. Lincoln National is the other, they are not rated so great. Rating seems important for such a long term relationship.
Subscribed, but only because I am making myself read another thread on LTCI. I keep waffling on the decision not to get it, but I keep coming back to what beyou and the OP describe. I'm only interested in insuring against potentially catastrophic events and requiring nursing home care for 1-3 years doesn't fit my definition of catastrophic. What does is the low probability long-tail version of long term care where one of us requires 10-30 years of long term care. That would be a policy I would be interested in, but given the data on the duration of average nursing home stays and what I perceive to be the snake oil state of most of these policies I am standing down for the moment. I suspect nobody can make the numbers work on a policy like this so that's why there isn't one available. I remember from previous threads that there was a lot of interest among BHs so that's probably another indicator that it doesn't make financial sense for insurance companies to offer it. :happy
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

beyou wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:35 pm But most policies only pay for a few years of care, so not sure why you think an event in 50s is more urgent to insure. You could use your entire benefit then what ? You have no insurance for the rest of your life if your recover.


These policies just seem too expensive and not designed to cover a catastrophe, just a bit more than “average” expenses.

I briefly looked into hybrid coverage mainly so you can prepay at a fixed cost for a fixed payout, rather than wonder about unlimited premium increases every year. I was told only 2 ins companies sell such policies in my state. First one was Mass Mutual, but it was confusing. Seemed to be a possibility of variable cost for the LTC coverage, fixed cost only for the life component. Lincoln National is the other, they are not rated so great. Rating seems important for such a long term relationship.
"These policies just seem too expensive and not designed to cover a catastrophe, just a bit more than “average” expenses."
We did and do not consider ours that expensive but they are quite old now.
What are you ages, benefits quoted and what are the premiums you are seeing currently?
wolf359
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by wolf359 »

beyou wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:34 pm
wolf359 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:28 pm
beyou wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:58 pm I was just reading about hybrid policies. Seems the main advantage, if you can fund upfront, is to lock in a price for a level of coverage.
Traditional policies you face annual increases, but if prepaid, no payments ever again. And you also get a life benefit, should you pass younger,
and never use the LTC benefits. Seems a win-win ! Many would not be thrilled about the upfront payment, but if the insurance company is highly rated, and the cash was available, seems a better alternative to consider.
I've been researching this as well. They appear to be whole life (permanent) policies that could be paid upfront. At that point, they don't expire. They have a long-term care rider. They're then a life insurance policy that pays off if you die. If you qualify for the LTC benefits, the benefits are paid out of the life insurance proceeds. If you then die with benefits left over, your heirs get what's left over.

The point of the life insurance contract is to fund the LTC. If you don't need the LTC, you get the life insurance coverage.

I haven't gotten as far as getting quotes. I'm not sure how these compare to more typical policies.
From what I read, they coverage for LTC is lower than if you buy just LTC (60-75% off cost of care).
That said, since you have no idea what you are really paying for traditional LTC, higher coverage is little consolation.
You get more but pay how much more ??? Anyone's guess.
My understanding is that if you get a $200,000 policy, then you have $200,000 to use towards long-term care. If you need more, you may (depends on company and policy) be able to buy a rider that extends coverage beyond that. That rider is effectively normal LTC insurance, but the price should be much lower (because it effectively has a $200,000 deductible on it.)

I'm using $200,000 in my example because the average LTC lifetime cost is around $180,000 (as per 2016 Survey from US Dept of Health and Human Services, assuming 2 years in a private nursing home.) That of course varies by state, and is an average, not actual cost. If you're one of the people who bring the average up, you would exhaust your coverage. On the other hand, having that much of your LTC cost covered should probably prevent your remaining assets from being depleted if they're only used after the coverage is exhausted. This should ensure that your surviving spouse has something to live after you pass.
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sergeant
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by sergeant »

marcopolo wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:53 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:51 pm
markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:15 pm
sergeant wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:03 pm I have 5% just like yours but only for the first 15 years
celia wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:10 pm The premiums didn't increase each year after that because of the inflation factor. But, usually it is only good for 15 or 20 years of inflation coverage, then the maximum monthly benefit freezes.
I have a hard time understanding stopping the inflation rider after 15 years. I probably am most likely to need the insurance in my 80s maybe 30 years after I would be getting it. I would hate for it not to cover what I expect for it to cover when I need it most. This is one of my hesitations buying this insurance at all. My insurance person told me that people don't get the inflation rider for too many years because it is too expensive. That to me means the insurance overall is to expensive to cover what I want it to cover.
I'm far less concerned with needing LTC in my 80's than in my 50's or 60's. In my 80's I would expect to only need it for a short period compared to being disabled decades earlier. My policy covers 12k a month when purchased and has a 5% yearly inflation for 15 years. If care costs more, than our portfolio will have no problem paying the difference. We can afford to self-insure a couple decades for one of us. We can not afford to self-insure for 3 or 4 decades for both of us. That's why we have LTC insurance.
What type of policy do you have, will it insure both of you for 3 or 4 decades? That would be an unusual policy.
It is an unusual policy compared to what else is out there. Our policy is through the National Peace Officers and Fire Fighters Association. It has strict rules on who they accept to cover. It will cover for decades if needed.
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beyou
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by beyou »

sergeant wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:10 pm It is an unusual policy compared to what else is out there. Our policy is through the National Peace Officers and Fire Fighters Association. It has strict rules on who they accept to cover. It will cover for decades if needed.
Lucky you.

I am following this thread because I feel maybe there is some better option or way to look at this.
This type of policy if available would be another thing to investigate for sure.
If anything I tend to spend lots of $ on insurance, I have vision care and dental, talk about pre-paid services.
But if they added 50% to the cost of my dental or vision I would not renew. Bought huge umbrella, lots of term
when kids were young. I am not against insurance, but skeptical for each purchase.
smitcat
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:44 pm
sergeant wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:10 pm It is an unusual policy compared to what else is out there. Our policy is through the National Peace Officers and Fire Fighters Association. It has strict rules on who they accept to cover. It will cover for decades if needed.
Lucky you.

I am following this thread because I feel maybe there is some better option or way to look at this.
This type of policy if available would be another thing to investigate for sure.
If anything I tend to spend lots of $ on insurance, I have vision care and dental, talk about pre-paid services.
But if they added 50% to the cost of my dental or vision I would not renew. Bought huge umbrella, lots of term
when kids were young. I am not against insurance, but skeptical for each purchase.
What have you been quoted to date for current LTCi?
What benefits quoted, what ages and what premiums?
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beyou
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by beyou »

smitcat wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:56 pm
beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:44 pm
sergeant wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:10 pm It is an unusual policy compared to what else is out there. Our policy is through the National Peace Officers and Fire Fighters Association. It has strict rules on who they accept to cover. It will cover for decades if needed.
Lucky you.

I am following this thread because I feel maybe there is some better option or way to look at this.
This type of policy if available would be another thing to investigate for sure.
If anything I tend to spend lots of $ on insurance, I have vision care and dental, talk about pre-paid services.
But if they added 50% to the cost of my dental or vision I would not renew. Bought huge umbrella, lots of term
when kids were young. I am not against insurance, but skeptical for each purchase.
What have you been quoted to date for current LTCi?
What benefits quoted, what ages and what premiums?
Irrelevant as initial quote is not guaranteed rate. We have all read stories about significant rate increases.
My own MIL had rates raised significantly by Genworth as she was in the age range where a claim is likely,
to the point they offered her reduced benefits to avoid increases she felt she could not afford.
So you pay a reasonable rate for insurance you don't need at 50, and then at 70-80 rates are jacked up to point you must drop them,
and the insurance companies know you can't get a policy anywhere else due to age and elimination of competition in recent years.

I looked instead at fixed cost lump sum hybrid policies, and these typically require either a multiple six figure upfront premium,
and if lower, then require upfront for life and ongoing payments that can be raised to fund the LTC component. So once again you are
back to an unknown total cost for a fixed benefit. Or a huge cost for a benefit that you can essentially self fund if you had the cash for a fixed cost policy. As there are only 2 options for hybrid in my state (per an independent broker) not much "shopping around" I can do.

What should be done is to promote more widely held policies, to bring in more premiums, and then in-network facilities to negotiate the cost,
similar to medical care. A large insurance company negotiating reasonable fees might be a useful service for an insurance middle man between you and a nursing home. But a benefit that may or may not cover my cost, at a premium I don't know or can't afford (hybrid) does not sound attractive.
pintail07
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by pintail07 »

WARNING, make sure you REALLY understand the total costs of these hybrid policies. Rarely does the agent explain the increase costs with a claim that might happen 20-25 years down the road. Might be required to pay that additional 200,000.
smitcat
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:17 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:56 pm
beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:44 pm
sergeant wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:10 pm It is an unusual policy compared to what else is out there. Our policy is through the National Peace Officers and Fire Fighters Association. It has strict rules on who they accept to cover. It will cover for decades if needed.
Lucky you.

I am following this thread because I feel maybe there is some better option or way to look at this.
This type of policy if available would be another thing to investigate for sure.
If anything I tend to spend lots of $ on insurance, I have vision care and dental, talk about pre-paid services.
But if they added 50% to the cost of my dental or vision I would not renew. Bought huge umbrella, lots of term
when kids were young. I am not against insurance, but skeptical for each purchase.
What have you been quoted to date for current LTCi?
What benefits quoted, what ages and what premiums?
Irrelevant as initial quote is not guaranteed rate. We have all read stories about significant rate increases.
My own MIL had rates raised significantly by Genworth as she was in the age range where a claim is likely,
to the point they offered her reduced benefits to avoid increases she felt she could not afford.
So you pay a reasonable rate for insurance you don't need at 50, and then at 70-80 rates are jacked up to point you must drop them,
and the insurance companies know you can't get a policy anywhere else due to age and elimination of competition in recent years.

I looked instead at fixed cost lump sum hybrid policies, and these typically require either a multiple six figure upfront premium,
and if lower, then require upfront for life and ongoing payments that can be raised to fund the LTC component. So once again you are
back to an unknown total cost for a fixed benefit. Or a huge cost for a benefit that you can essentially self fund if you had the cash for a fixed cost policy. As there are only 2 options for hybrid in my state (per an independent broker) not much "shopping around" I can do.

What should be done is to promote more widely held policies, to bring in more premiums, and then in-network facilities to negotiate the cost,
similar to medical care. A large insurance company negotiating reasonable fees might be a useful service for an insurance middle man between you and a nursing home. But a benefit that may or may not cover my cost, at a premium I don't know or can't afford (hybrid) does not sound attractive.
"Irrelevant as initial quote is not guaranteed rate."
Ours has gone up very little over the past 11 years - perhaps read how they are allowed to go up and what that likelihood is.
"So you pay a reasonable rate for insurance you don't need at 50"
While I am glad that we have not used our policies yet they have been there in case we did need them while we were earning incomes where they would have been just as valuable.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by visualguy »

queso wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:37 am Subscribed, but only because I am making myself read another thread on LTCI. I keep waffling on the decision not to get it, but I keep coming back to what beyou and the OP describe. I'm only interested in insuring against potentially catastrophic events and requiring nursing home care for 1-3 years doesn't fit my definition of catastrophic. What does is the low probability long-tail version of long term care where one of us requires 10-30 years of long term care. That would be a policy I would be interested in, but given the data on the duration of average nursing home stays and what I perceive to be the snake oil state of most of these policies I am standing down for the moment. I suspect nobody can make the numbers work on a policy like this so that's why there isn't one available. I remember from previous threads that there was a lot of interest among BHs so that's probably another indicator that it doesn't make financial sense for insurance companies to offer it. :happy
The question is why it doesn't make financial sense for them to offer it if the assumption is correct that such long LTC cases are so rare. It is a bit disturbing. Maybe this isn't really that rare among people who get LTC insurance? I don't know the statistics for that group. Maybe they are more likely to utilize paid care for longer (instead of relying on family-provided care for at least part of the time).

I do know that my grandmother was in a nursing home for 7 years, my mother is currently in a nursing home and most likely to be there for more than 3 years, and my mother-in-law needed LTC for 20 years after a stroke (although most of that was provided by family). Quite a few in my mother's nursing home have been there for years. This is anecdotal, but 3 people just in my (and my wife's) close family (there are more cases in more distant family) leads me to believe that it might not be that rare. Actually, it may become 4 people soon because my dad is on the verge of needing LTC, and he has no fatal illness, just a bunch of debilitating non-fatal medical problems.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

visualguy wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:45 pm
queso wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:37 am Subscribed, but only because I am making myself read another thread on LTCI. I keep waffling on the decision not to get it, but I keep coming back to what beyou and the OP describe. I'm only interested in insuring against potentially catastrophic events and requiring nursing home care for 1-3 years doesn't fit my definition of catastrophic. What does is the low probability long-tail version of long term care where one of us requires 10-30 years of long term care. That would be a policy I would be interested in, but given the data on the duration of average nursing home stays and what I perceive to be the snake oil state of most of these policies I am standing down for the moment. I suspect nobody can make the numbers work on a policy like this so that's why there isn't one available. I remember from previous threads that there was a lot of interest among BHs so that's probably another indicator that it doesn't make financial sense for insurance companies to offer it. :happy
The question is why it doesn't make financial sense for them to offer it if the assumption is correct that such long LTC cases are so rare. It is a bit disturbing. Maybe this isn't really that rare among people who get LTC insurance? I don't know the statistics for that group. Maybe they are more likely to utilize paid care for longer (instead of relying on family-provided care for at least part of the time).

I do know that my grandmother was in a nursing home for 7 years, my mother is currently in a nursing home and most likely to be there for more than 3 years, and my mother-in-law needed LTC for 20 years after a stroke (although most of that was provided by family). Quite a few in my mother's nursing home have been there for years. This is anecdotal, but 3 people just in my (and my wife's) close family (there are more cases in more distant family) leads me to believe that it might not be that rare. Actually, it may become 4 people soon because my dad is on the verge of needing LTC, and he has no fatal illness, just a bunch of debilitating non-fatal medical problems.
"Maybe this isn't really that rare among people who get LTC insurance? I don't know the statistics for that group. Maybe they are more likely to utilize paid care for longer (instead of relying on family-provided care for at least part of the time)"

Most long term care is less than 2 years - if you purchase a policy that will cover 2-3 years and it goes over that then the income that the person would have used would be available to cover another 1-2 years. Typically after 5 yrs you are on the tail end of the statistical need for these services.

https://www.morningstar.com/articles/82 ... -care.html
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by BogleFanGal »

MindBogler wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:36 pm A better question is if you need LTC insurance at all. I've seen many of my relatives pass recently and given what I witnessed it's typically a few days of hospice before it over. Anything could happen in the future but I am going to plan for a future that is similar to my blood relatives. I'll take my chances.
Sadly for many people and their families, in my experience, the story is quite different. When Alzheimers or other dementia enters the picture - especially coupled with someone in decent physical condition - they faced many intensive and crazy expensive years of caregiving needed. Hope you're one of the lucky ones....some pass fairly quickly and painlessly, after a long life, with full mental faculties in check. What a blessing that is.
"Life would be infinitely happier if we could only be born at the age of eighty and gradually approach eighteen." Mark Twain
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by willthrill81 »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:24 pm
markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:56 pm A few posters, as well as myself, mentioned they would be interested in a policy that had a 3 year deductible. Currently, I was told the largest deductibles are 1 year. Perhaps in the future insurance companies may find it profitable to offer such policies, especially because the odds of needing insurance for greater than 3 years is not that high. This is one of the reasons I am considering waiting for a few years.
agreed, ideally with a 3 year deductible, the premiums would be reasonable, as the likelihood of payout would be lower.

Currently LTCi is more prepaid 3 years of LTC.. not insurance. Or atleast that is what it seems like.
Yes, LTCi is basically prepayment for the first ~3 years of LTC, which covers about 75% of those who need LTC of any kind; considering that about 50% of individuals are expected to need some kind of LTC during their lifetime, this means that 3 years of LTC would cover roughly 88% of the population. IIRC, if the period is extended to five years, it covers over 90% of those who need LTC.

Personally, I've only known one individual who needed facility-provided LTC lasting more than few months. I believe she needed it for about 6-7 years. One of my great-grandfathers received what would be legally referred to as LTC from his wife for a couple of years at home. Hospice care seems much more common.

I've been told that longer elimination periods than one year, sometimes less, are often prohibited by state law because most individuals don't have the funds to cover that period. But such policies would be very appealing to many around here, including us.
MindBogler wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:36 pm A better question is if you need LTC insurance at all. I've seen many of my relatives pass recently and given what I witnessed it's typically a few days of hospice before it over. Anything could happen in the future but I am going to plan for a future that is similar to my blood relatives. I'll take my chances.
Indeed. Many, probably most, on this forum probably have little need of LTCi. For instance, a $2 million portfolio with 4% withdrawals yields $80k of annual income, plus SS benefits and any other income sources. Considering that LTC does not usually cost more than about $100k in all but the VHCOL areas, unless it's one of the 'country club' sort of facilities, and considering that the odds are slim that more than five years of care will be needed, it shouldn't be a problem for one spouse to spend up to $500k of a $2 million portfolio, leaving the other spouse with most of the portfolio intact. Arguably, those with under $500k in assets don't really have enough to warrant protecting with LTCi; they will simply spend down their assets until they qualify for Medicaid unless they prepared in advance with irrevocable trusts and/or use a Medicaid compliant annuity to provide income for the 'well' spouse. It's those in the middle for whom LTCi seems to be potentially most appealing.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:31 pm
Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:24 pm
markcoop wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:56 pm A few posters, as well as myself, mentioned they would be interested in a policy that had a 3 year deductible. Currently, I was told the largest deductibles are 1 year. Perhaps in the future insurance companies may find it profitable to offer such policies, especially because the odds of needing insurance for greater than 3 years is not that high. This is one of the reasons I am considering waiting for a few years.
agreed, ideally with a 3 year deductible, the premiums would be reasonable, as the likelihood of payout would be lower.

Currently LTCi is more prepaid 3 years of LTC.. not insurance. Or atleast that is what it seems like.
Yes, LTCi is basically prepayment for the first ~3 years of LTC, which covers about 75% of those who need LTC of any kind; considering that about 50% of individuals are expected to need some kind of LTC during their lifetime, this means that 3 years of LTC would cover roughly 88% of the population. IIRC, if the period is extended to five years, it covers over 90% of those who need LTC.

Personally, I've only known one individual who needed facility-provided LTC lasting more than few months. I believe she needed it for about 6-7 years. One of my great-grandfathers received what would be legally referred to as LTC from his wife for a couple of years at home. Hospice care seems much more common.

I've been told that longer elimination periods than one year, sometimes less, are often prohibited by state law because most individuals don't have the funds to cover that period. But such policies would be very appealing to many around here, including us.
MindBogler wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:36 pm A better question is if you need LTC insurance at all. I've seen many of my relatives pass recently and given what I witnessed it's typically a few days of hospice before it over. Anything could happen in the future but I am going to plan for a future that is similar to my blood relatives. I'll take my chances.
Indeed. Many, probably most, on this forum probably have little need of LTCi. For instance, a $2 million portfolio with 4% withdrawals yields $80k of annual income, plus SS benefits and any other income sources. Considering that LTC does not usually cost more than about $100k in all but the VHCOL areas, unless it's one of the 'country club' sort of facilities, and considering that the odds are slim that more than five years of care will be needed, it shouldn't be a problem for one spouse to spend up to $500k of a $2 million portfolio, leaving the other spouse with most of the portfolio intact. Arguably, those with under $500k in assets don't really have enough to warrant protecting with LTCi; they will simply spend down their assets until they qualify for Medicaid unless they prepared in advance with irrevocable trusts and/or use a Medicaid compliant annuity to provide income for the 'well' spouse. It's those in the middle for whom LTCi seems to be potentially most appealing.
"It's those in the middle for whom LTCi seems to be potentially most appealing."
I Would propose the thought that is also makes sense fore those that have more than the $2 million but have relatively low premiums that are also a tax deduction making the OOP expenses very attractive for the coverage gained.
YMMV and each situation needs to be evaluated independently.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by markcoop »

beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:17 pm So you pay a reasonable rate for insurance you don't need at 50, and then at 70-80 rates are jacked up to point you must drop them,
and the insurance companies know you can't get a policy anywhere else due to age and elimination of competition in recent years.
I thought that insurance companies by law cannot do that. When rates are raised, they are raised across the board. So, they could be raised, but not on an individual basis when you get older. If others know more, please respond.
Mark
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by visualguy »

smitcat wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:30 pm "It's those in the middle for whom LTCi seems to be potentially most appealing."
I Would propose the thought that is also makes sense fore those that have more than the $2 million but have relatively low premiums that are also a tax deduction making the OOP expenses very attractive for the coverage gained.
YMMV and each situation needs to be evaluated independently.
The allowed deduction maximums are pretty small, though, and there's also the 10% of income threshold for being able to deduct.

I believe in "self-insuring" if you have enough savings/assets anyway, so it's not much of an issue. The problem is when it's not so clear, and then in order to have enough reserve you either have to work longer or reduce your lifestyle below where you wanted it to be. Insurance could work better in that case by enabling you to retire earlier or have a higher standard of living during retirement. The devil is in the details, of course...
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

visualguy wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:45 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:30 pm "It's those in the middle for whom LTCi seems to be potentially most appealing."
I Would propose the thought that is also makes sense fore those that have more than the $2 million but have relatively low premiums that are also a tax deduction making the OOP expenses very attractive for the coverage gained.
YMMV and each situation needs to be evaluated independently.
The allowed deduction maximums are pretty small, though, and there's also the 10% of income threshold for being able to deduct.

I believe in "self-insuring" if you have enough savings/assets anyway, so it's not much of an issue. The problem is when it's not so clear, and then in order to have enough reserve you either have to work longer or reduce your lifestyle below where you wanted it to be. Insurance could work better in that case by enabling you to retire earlier or have a higher standard of living during retirement. The devil is in the details, of course...
"The allowed deduction maximums are pretty small, though, and there's also the 10% of income threshold for being able to deduct."
We have our own business.

"I believe in "self-insuring" if you have enough savings/assets anyway, so it's not much of an issue"
We could self insure for LTCi , and home insurance, and a couple of others. Depends upon rates and where you are in your life and decision level.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by markcoop »

I really think LTCi is becoming a real problem in this country and it will be interesting how the industry changes in the future. Has anyone investigated other alternatives? For example, would the use of trusts and immediate annuities be a way of protecting a good portion of your money and just go on Medicaid eventually? For example:

1) Immediate annuities for you and your spouse can be used to cover your basic expenses for the rest of your life. I imagine you would need to use the income from the annuity to pay for the LTC, but wouldn't the annuity payments be there when you get out? And wouldn't the spouse's annuity payments stay with the spouse?

2) Can a trust be set up to benefit my children where I get some of the money while alive and the rest goes to them on my death? Again, maybe some of the income can pay for the LTC, but the body will not be touched?

If (1) and (2) use up most of your money, then only your play money and payouts could get wiped out before medicaid kicks in. You still would be left with income and an inheritance for your kids in the worst case. Not my preference on how I would want to do this, but I at least want to know my options if no good products become available. I really have just begun to try to understand the rules with these products and LTC as part of my research. Any input would be appreciated.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by smitcat »

markcoop wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:31 pm
beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:17 pm So you pay a reasonable rate for insurance you don't need at 50, and then at 70-80 rates are jacked up to point you must drop them,
and the insurance companies know you can't get a policy anywhere else due to age and elimination of competition in recent years.
I thought that insurance companies by law cannot do that. When rates are raised, they are raised across the board. So, they could be raised, but not on an individual basis when you get older. If others know more, please respond.

Our LTCI went up once in 11 years so far, it was for the cohort of policies that we were in not our specific policy.
Over those same years these policies went up a larger %...
- our home insurance
- our auto insurance
- our boat insurance
- and our health insurance went up more in one year than the 11 years of LTCi. I do not want to even figure out what % our health insurance went up over the same 11 years - but one would think that they (health and LTCi) would go up in a similar manner.
YMMV - gotta catch a ;lane now so please get your onw LTCi quotes and ask all the questions of those that know about the current products and policies as the past does not seem to be a reference point for today.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by willthrill81 »

markcoop wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:55 pm I really think LTCi is becoming a real problem in this country and it will be interesting how the industry changes in the future. Has anyone investigated other alternatives? For example, would the use of trusts and immediate annuities be a way of protecting a good portion of your money and just go on Medicaid eventually? For example:

1) Immediate annuities for you and your spouse can be used to cover your basic expenses for the rest of your life. I imagine you would need to use the income from the annuity to pay for the LTC, but wouldn't the annuity payments be there when you get out? And wouldn't the spouse's annuity payments stay with the spouse?

2) Can a trust be set up to benefit my children where I get some of the money while alive and the rest goes to them on my death? Again, maybe some of the income can pay for the LTC, but the body will not be touched?

If (1) and (2) use up most of your money, then only your play money and payouts could get wiped out before medicaid kicks in. You still would be left with income and an inheritance for your kids in the worst case. Not my preference on how I would want to do this, but I at least want to know my options if no good products become available. I really have just begun to try to understand the rules with these products and LTC as part of my research. Any input would be appreciated.
Yes, my understanding is that the income from annuities in place well before the LTC event is not considered in most states' Medicaid calculations. But after a LTC event begins, a Medicaid-compliant annuity is still an option in most states. The annuity pays the 'well' spouse for a period that must be shorter than the spouse's remaining life expectancy.

Assets placed into an irrevocable trust a minimum of five years before the the LTC event will be exempt from Medicaid's reach. Such a trust can pay you the 'income' that the assets produce, but the assets originally placed into the trust cannot be consumed by the owner of the trust. They can, however, be passed on to the beneficiary upon the death of the owner.

Those considering such options need to discuss the specifics of their state's law with an attorney well versed in such matters. But the cost of establishing these probably pales in comparison to the cost of LTCi.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by willthrill81 »

smitcat wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:50 pm
visualguy wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:45 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:30 pm "It's those in the middle for whom LTCi seems to be potentially most appealing."
I Would propose the thought that is also makes sense fore those that have more than the $2 million but have relatively low premiums that are also a tax deduction making the OOP expenses very attractive for the coverage gained.
YMMV and each situation needs to be evaluated independently.
The allowed deduction maximums are pretty small, though, and there's also the 10% of income threshold for being able to deduct.

I believe in "self-insuring" if you have enough savings/assets anyway, so it's not much of an issue. The problem is when it's not so clear, and then in order to have enough reserve you either have to work longer or reduce your lifestyle below where you wanted it to be. Insurance could work better in that case by enabling you to retire earlier or have a higher standard of living during retirement. The devil is in the details, of course...
"The allowed deduction maximums are pretty small, though, and there's also the 10% of income threshold for being able to deduct."
We have our own business.
If you're able to effectively reduce the cost of the LTCi by 30% or more through tax deductions without reducing the benefits, it can certainly become a lot more attractive.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by beyou »

markcoop wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:31 pm
beyou wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:17 pm So you pay a reasonable rate for insurance you don't need at 50, and then at 70-80 rates are jacked up to point you must drop them,
and the insurance companies know you can't get a policy anywhere else due to age and elimination of competition in recent years.
I thought that insurance companies by law cannot do that. When rates are raised, they are raised across the board. So, they could be raised, but not on an individual basis when you get older. If others know more, please respond.
This is true, but rising costs have caused ins cos to ask for and receive premium increases for groups. Doesn’t feel easier if the increase affects others.

As far as increases in other types of insurance, I can change auto or home more easily than ltc. There are few players and medical qualification. They have you hostage and do apply for increases to state ins commissions.
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by rgs »

I am starting to look LTCI options as well and during the course of reading, some of the hybrid models (as opposed to straight out LTCI) seem intriguing, such the single premium immediate or deferred annuity. To me this falls under the "self-insure" bucket with planned money set aside (now granted that depending on the severity of the care need, this might not entirely fill the need).

Any views on this from folks who might have explored or currently employing this option? Thanks as alwatys
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by willthrill81 »

rgs wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:43 pm I am starting to look LTCI options as well and during the course of reading, some of the hybrid models (as opposed to straight out LTCI) seem intriguing, such the single premium immediate or deferred annuity. To me this falls under the "self-insure" bucket with planned money set aside (now granted that depending on the severity of the care need, this might not entirely fill the need).

Any views on this from folks who might have explored or currently employing this option? Thanks as alwatys
Are you reasonably capable of self-insuring the risk of LTC? Those who will have $2 million or more in their portfolio by the time they're in their 60s probably can.

If you determine that you cannot self-insure but do have enough assets to warrant some protection, a hybrid policy might make sense. There was a good article at Nerd Wallet on the topic a few years ago.
Hybrid policies reduce people’s fear of wasting premiums by offering two exit strategies. The first exit strategy is that after the surrender charge period (usually 10 years), you can get most of your premiums back if you decide to cancel the policy. The illustration you receive from the insurance company shows that you will not make a return on your cash if you cancel it, but it is comforting to know that you can at least get a do-over if you change your mind down the road and want to cancel the policy.
Another disadvantage of hybrid policies is that the premiums are paid over shorter periods of time than traditional long-term care, which can make them unaffordable for some people. While many factors can influence the price, hybrid care for a 62-year-old woman might be about $8,000 per year for 10 years, as opposed to roughly half that for a traditional LTC premium that is payable for life (or until care is needed). Conservative investors may like the idea of taking $100,000 that is currently in a CD and leveraging that money to provide some life insurance and some long-term care coverage.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insuran ... kes-sense/

There was a good summary a couple of years ago in Consumer Reports of the various LTCi options as well.
Another increasingly popular option is a policy that combines life insurance with long-term-care coverage. Though still a small part of the market, these policies have seen a 50 percent sales spike since 2012, according to LIMRA, an insurance marketing research group. With a hybrid policy, you can tap the death benefit to pay for long-term care. If you don’t need help, your heirs get the full payout. “You’re guaranteed to get your money one way or another,” Forman says. Rates are considered “noncancelable,” which means premiums are fixed for life (and often paid all at once up front).
A single premium means you’ll have to come up with tens of thousands of dollars at once. In 2016 the average single premium was $89,000, LIMRA reports. You may also buy life insurance you don’t need. And, unlike with traditional long-term-care insurance, the premiums are not tax-deductible. But the biggest risk is that you could forgo thousands of dollars in potential earnings on your investment if interest rates rise, because the policies don’t guarantee that you’ll earn market rates. “Rates are at 40-year lows,” Kitces says. Those lost earnings, he adds, could end up making hybrids the most expensive long-term-care policy of all.
https://www.consumerreports.org/long-te ... -makeover/

It seems that the primary benefit is an emotional one; you avoid the 'use it or lose it' aspect of traditional insurance (i.e. you 'win' if you make a claim but 'lose' if you never do).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by BarbBrooklyn »

https://planaheadny.health.ny.gov/

Overview from NYS. Talk to an independent broker after doing some research.
BarbBrooklyn | "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by capjak »

rgs wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:43 pm I am starting to look LTCI options as well and during the course of reading, some of the hybrid models (as opposed to straight out LTCI) seem intriguing, such the single premium immediate or deferred annuity. To me this falls under the "self-insure" bucket with planned money set aside (now granted that depending on the severity of the care need, this might not entirely fill the need).

Any views on this from folks who might have explored or currently employing this option? Thanks as alwatys
I purchased a hybrid policy, Whole Life with a LTC rider with inflation adjustment. The product is designed for couples to use for LTC.
It was the only hybrid that would insure LTC for a one and/or both for as long as they are in LTC (i.e. no limit on time of benefits and grows inflation adjusted).

It only pays the monthly cost from the death benefit the first 2 years and than the rider kicks in for the remaining years. The premium are set at the time of the purchase and do not change.
You can pay all upfront, pay for 10 years, 20 years or lifetime for the rider piece.
It is called One America Asset Care I. see blog (I purchased from this independent agent) his blog I believe to be informative but do your own research of course, one size does not fit all.....
https://longtermcareinsurancepartner.co ... ey-in-2018
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by Nowizard »

Insurance companies often structure so that you have the benefit and comfort of protection while you really may not need it, focusing on the "What if," from an actuarial standpoint. They benefit if a long-term policy holder cancels as premiums rise. Having purchased whole life long ago, before being more aware, I can tell you that we laugh about how quickly they sent the cash value when we cancelled the policy now that we are at ages where the possibility of the policy "maturing" has increased.

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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by FBN2014 »

The average need for long term care is about 3 years unless you have dementia or Alzheimer's. Then you could have a long term care need for up to 10 years. The three carriers that offer the hybrid model are One America, Nationwide, and Lincoln Financial. I believe the One America product is the most comprehensive. You can also buy a GUL insurance policy with a long term rider where you can use a portion of the death benefit for long term care or a fixed indexed annuity with a long term care rider that doubles the annuity payment in the event you can't perform 2 ADLs as certified by a doctor.
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mtmingus
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by mtmingus »

My fear of getting it:

they raise your premiums just before you may need it to force you out of the plans.
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willthrill81
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by willthrill81 »

mtmingus wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 am My fear of getting it:

they raise your premiums just before you may need it to force you out of the plans.
Because they are a modified whole life insurance product, hybrid LTCi policies cannot, TMK, increase your premiums. However, their benefits are not inflation adjusted. So if the cost of LTC increases significantly, you might no longer have coverage for the very unlikely but very costly LTC events that you bought the insurance for in the first place.
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mtmingus
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by mtmingus »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:37 am
mtmingus wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 am My fear of getting it:

they raise your premiums just before you may need it to force you out of the plans.
Because they are a modified whole life insurance product, hybrid LTCi policies cannot, TMK, increase your premiums. However, their benefits are not inflation adjusted. So if the cost of LTC increases significantly, you might no longer have coverage for the very unlikely but very costly LTC events that you bought the insurance for in the first place.
Thanks for the info. Will take a look at it.
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Nate79
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by Nate79 »

No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
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willthrill81
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by willthrill81 »

Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:17 am No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
But they don't call them modified whole (or permanent, which is becoming a more frequently used name since 'whole' has gotten a bad rap) life insurance policies because that could make people think that that's what they are. Using the term "hybrid long-term care insurance" sounds a lot better. Maybe it's like a hybrid car and doesn't cost much to use, right? :shock:

In all seriousness, we have a stickied thread specifically warning people about threads dedicated to whole life insurance. I wonder whether such warnings will also apply to 'hybrid LTCi'.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Nate79
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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Post by Nate79 »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:22 pm
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:17 am No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
But they don't call them modified whole (or permanent, which is becoming a more frequently used name since 'whole' has gotten a bad rap) life insurance policies because that could make people think that that's what they are. Using the term "hybrid long-term care insurance" sounds a lot better. Maybe it's like a hybrid car and doesn't cost much to use, right? :shock:

In all seriousness, we have a stickied thread specifically warning people about threads dedicated to whole life insurance. I wonder whether such warnings will also apply to 'hybrid LTCi'.
Yes, hybrid sounds sophisticated. Almost reminds of hybrid cars and environmentally friendly. What's not to love?
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