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Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 pm
by capjak
mtmingus wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:09 am
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:37 am
mtmingus wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 am My fear of getting it:

they raise your premiums just before you may need it to force you out of the plans.
Because they are a modified whole life insurance product, hybrid LTCi policies cannot, TMK, increase your premiums. However, their benefits are not inflation adjusted. So if the cost of LTC increases significantly, you might no longer have coverage for the very unlikely but very costly LTC events that you bought the insurance for in the first place.
Thanks for the info. Will take a look at it.
The rider to the policy can be purchased with 3%,4% or 5% inflation adjustment.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:39 pm
by capjak
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:22 pm
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:17 am No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
But they don't call them modified whole (or permanent, which is becoming a more frequently used name since 'whole' has gotten a bad rap) life insurance policies because that could make people think that that's what they are. Using the term "hybrid long-term care insurance" sounds a lot better. Maybe it's like a hybrid car and doesn't cost much to use, right? :shock:

In all seriousness, we have a stickied thread specifically warning people about threads dedicated to whole life insurance. I wonder whether such warnings will also apply to 'hybrid LTCi'.
Yes, hybrid sounds sophisticated. Almost reminds of hybrid cars and environmentally friendly. What's not to love?
The product is to minimize (i.e purchase the least amount of whole life allowed as the base, of course you can purchase more but I did not) in order to add the LTC rider. This product and one other traditional policy allow for unlimited benefit years. I do not believe many/any buy this type of hybrid policy for the life insurance portion the main benefits are: guaranteed no increase once premium paid either upfront/10 year pay/20 year pay or lifetime and the benefit is for unlimited years of LTC for 2 people (does not have to be married couple) and can be designed with inflation.

The major negatives are the price and the rider (with inflation adjustment and unlimited benefit based on purchased monthly amount) does not kick in until the life insurance is exhausted over a 24 month period.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:49 pm
by willthrill81
capjak wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:39 pm
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:22 pm
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:17 am No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
But they don't call them modified whole (or permanent, which is becoming a more frequently used name since 'whole' has gotten a bad rap) life insurance policies because that could make people think that that's what they are. Using the term "hybrid long-term care insurance" sounds a lot better. Maybe it's like a hybrid car and doesn't cost much to use, right? :shock:

In all seriousness, we have a stickied thread specifically warning people about threads dedicated to whole life insurance. I wonder whether such warnings will also apply to 'hybrid LTCi'.
Yes, hybrid sounds sophisticated. Almost reminds of hybrid cars and environmentally friendly. What's not to love?
The product is to minimize (i.e purchase the least amount of whole life allowed as the base, of course you can purchase more but I did not) in order to add the LTC rider. This product and one other traditional policy allow for unlimited benefit years. I do not believe many/any buy this type of hybrid policy for the life insurance portion the main benefits are: guaranteed no increase once premium paid either upfront/10 year pay/20 year pay or lifetime and the benefit is for unlimited years of LTC for 2 people (does not have to be married couple) and can be designed with inflation.

The major negatives are the price and the rider (with inflation adjustment and unlimited benefit based on purchased monthly amount) does not kick in until the life insurance is exhausted over a 24 month period.
That circles back to the most widely cited problem with LTCi: the price. If you opt for traditional LTCi, you may be faced with significant premium increases down the road, depending on your policy and state's regulations. You can avoid premium increases with hybrid policies and get an unlimited benefit, but you'll have to fork over even more money and in a short period of time as well, maybe a lump sum.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:27 pm
by FBN2014
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:22 pm
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:17 am No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
But they don't call them modified whole (or permanent, which is becoming a more frequently used name since 'whole' has gotten a bad rap) life insurance policies because that could make people think that that's what they are. Using the term "hybrid long-term care insurance" sounds a lot better. Maybe it's like a hybrid car and doesn't cost much to use, right? :shock:

In all seriousness, we have a stickied thread specifically warning people about threads dedicated to whole life insurance. I wonder whether such warnings will also apply to 'hybrid LTCi'.
Yes, hybrid sounds sophisticated. Almost reminds of hybrid cars and environmentally friendly. What's not to love?
I don't think you should be so hung up on what they call it. I look at the bottom line cost. The whole life feature basically refunds the premiums paid in as a death benefit if the long term care options aren't used. If you use the death benefit for long term care expenses it covers 33 months (the One America policy) and if you purchase the lifetime rider it will cover for a lifetime. I like it because you know exactly what you are paying and it can't increase unlike traditional LTC policies where they can increase the premium to a point where its unaffordable and then people drop the coverage or get a reduced benefit if they elect to keep paying the original premium amount.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am
by Mr.BB
We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
by willthrill81
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am
by smitcat
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.
You do not want to be in a Medicaid assigned bed in our area.
If we have 3 years of coverage we will also have the 3 years of 'income' not being spent - that will likely raise the duration to over 5 years.
It all comes down to how much you are paying and how much it is worth to you.
As I have mentioned before - Long term care was much more important while we were younger and an 'event' would have affected both our care and incomer ate the same time

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:28 am
by willthrill81
smitcat wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.
You do not want to be in a Medicaid assigned bed in our area.
This is definitely something that people need to be aware of. In some areas, facilities that will accept Medicaid are no place that you want to be. In other areas, there's no difference at all between facilities that accept private pay and Medicaid. Everyone needs to be aware of what is the case where they are.

There are also a lot of very nice facilities that require private pay for the first two or three years but will let patients transition to Medicaid beyond that, partly because they know that very few will actually need to do so.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:36 am
by Mr.BB
Obviously the dollar value of the insurance is more important when you're younger. Over 20-25 years at that point if you had save money on the side you probably cover most of it on your own. If something happens before that, (and yes I know people fall in this category) you would wish you would have had that insurance.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:21 pm
by rgs
I have been doing some additional research and see 2 options (one is specific to me)

1. LTCI from couple of companies with Mutual of Omaha as perhaps the best option
2. I currently have a "complife" (part whole, part term) that has a nice cash value, and I can use this as a "single" premium for a hybrid plan with Lincoln. This plan will not need additional premiums and is guaranteed (no increase) and will maintain a modest death benefit. The LTC benefit is about $48k per year for 4 years

Does anyone in this forum have any views on the hybrid plan and/or either of these companies (Mutual of Omaha or Lincoln)? Thanks

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:20 pm
by willthrill81
rgs wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:21 pmDoes anyone in this forum have any views on the hybrid plan and/or either of these companies (Mutual of Omaha or Lincoln)? Thanks
Here are some thoughts on hybrid plans.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:32 am
by Bongleur
Hybrid Reimbursement of premium after ten years equals only 81% of the real value at 2% inflation. 73% at 3% inflation.

Everyone seems to think that when LTCI runs out Medicaid starts. My mother has a pension income that is too high for Medicaid, but its only a fraction of her care costs. No significant Social Security ( I don't even know how SS income factors in).

When choosing your Inflation Factor: 2% after ten years is 1.219. At 3% its 1.344. So if you buy 2% and its 3% you are short 1/8th (ie 0.125). Not so bad really. If you figured on LTCI paying $80k real then you are short $10k. Can the lower premium at 2% be invested to create that much?

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:35 pm
by smitcat
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:28 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.
You do not want to be in a Medicaid assigned bed in our area.
This is definitely something that people need to be aware of. In some areas, facilities that will accept Medicaid are no place that you want to be. In other areas, there's no difference at all between facilities that accept private pay and Medicaid. Everyone needs to be aware of what is the case where they are.

There are also a lot of very nice facilities that require private pay for the first two or three years but will let patients transition to Medicaid beyond that, partly because they know that very few will actually need to do so.
"There are also a lot of very nice facilities that require private pay for the first two or three years but will let patients transition to Medicaid beyond that, partly because they know that very few will actually need to do so."

FWIW - it used to be that way where we are in NY about 12 years back. Of course they changed that quite abruptly and that alone should be food for thought for the future of anyone's plans.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:50 pm
by visualguy
smitcat wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:35 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:28 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:43 am
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.
You do not want to be in a Medicaid assigned bed in our area.
This is definitely something that people need to be aware of. In some areas, facilities that will accept Medicaid are no place that you want to be. In other areas, there's no difference at all between facilities that accept private pay and Medicaid. Everyone needs to be aware of what is the case where they are.

There are also a lot of very nice facilities that require private pay for the first two or three years but will let patients transition to Medicaid beyond that, partly because they know that very few will actually need to do so.
"There are also a lot of very nice facilities that require private pay for the first two or three years but will let patients transition to Medicaid beyond that, partly because they know that very few will actually need to do so."

FWIW - it used to be that way where we are in NY about 12 years back. Of course they changed that quite abruptly and that alone should be food for thought for the future of anyone's plans.
I haven't researched all the options in the area, but I do know that my Mom's nursing home (which is part of a CCRC) does not take Medicaid.

I don't think that relying on Medicaid is a desirable plan - it's a last resort in my view.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:16 pm
by JGoneRiding
markcoop wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:38 pm Is this the rate you would pay if you started the insurance at that age?
No. That is the premium in each year. It goes up because of the inflation rider.

Edit: I believe that is the big difference with what is being compared here to other people's policies and why mine sounds so high.
I think you misunderstood your sales man. The inflation rider is on the coverage not the premium. You get 5% increase yearly from 10k per month. Doesn't mean the premium goes up that much.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:46 am
by smitcat
JGoneRiding wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:16 pm
markcoop wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:38 pm Is this the rate you would pay if you started the insurance at that age?
No. That is the premium in each year. It goes up because of the inflation rider.

Edit: I believe that is the big difference with what is being compared here to other people's policies and why mine sounds so high.
I think you misunderstood your sales man. The inflation rider is on the coverage not the premium. You get 5% increase yearly from 10k per month. Doesn't mean the premium goes up that much.
Yes - that is how ours works and likely his as well. Good catch.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:47 pm
by WoW2012
mtmingus wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 am My fear of getting it:

they raise your premiums just before you may need it to force you out of the plans.
Fortunately, the regulators do not allow the insurance companies to do that.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:48 pm
by WoW2012
Nate79 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:17 am No way would I touch a Whole Life policy with a 10ft pole. It's amazing the life insurance industry has added another complication to these horrible products to dupe another generation of suckers into buying these horrible products.
Agreed.
The hybrids are the insurance industry's attempt to make cash value life insurance sexy again.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:53 pm
by WoW2012
FBN2014 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:27 pm unlike traditional LTC policies where they can increase the premium to a point where its unaffordable and then people drop the coverage or get a reduced benefit if they elect to keep paying the original premium amount.

Very few people drop their LTC insurance even after a rate increase. About 50% of policyholders keep the benefits the same and simply pay the extra premium. About 45% of policyholders reduce their benefits somewhat in order to avoid the rate increase. About 5% either cancel their policy or accept the reduced paid up benefit.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:08 pm
by WoW2012
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
Those rates sound quite high for such paltry benefits. You need to shop around and compare some more.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
by WoW2012
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:16 pm
by WoW2012
rgs wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:21 pm I have been doing some additional research and see 2 options (one is specific to me)

1. LTCI from couple of companies with Mutual of Omaha as perhaps the best option
2. I currently have a "complife" (part whole, part term) that has a nice cash value, and I can use this as a "single" premium for a hybrid plan with Lincoln. This plan will not need additional premiums and is guaranteed (no increase) and will maintain a modest death benefit. The LTC benefit is about $48k per year for 4 years

Does anyone in this forum have any views on the hybrid plan and/or either of these companies (Mutual of Omaha or Lincoln)? Thanks
How much of the cash value is taxable?
Probably very little. Here's how to calculate it:

Cash value minus sum of all premiums paid = taxable portion of cash value

If very little is taxable, then withdraw the cash value, invest it, and use a portion of the return to pay the Mutual of Omaha premium every year.

The biggest cost of the single-premium hybrids is the opportunity cost.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 pm
by WoW2012
visualguy wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:50 pm
I don't think that relying on Medicaid is a desirable plan - it's a last resort in my view.

Agreed.
That's what's great about the Long-Term Care Partnership Programs. You can keep much, if not all, of your assets even if your LTCi policy runs out of benefits. Medicaid becomes the "fail safe" or "back stop".






Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:23 pm
by WoW2012
JGoneRiding wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:16 pm
markcoop wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:38 pm Is this the rate you would pay if you started the insurance at that age?
No. That is the premium in each year. It goes up because of the inflation rider.

Edit: I believe that is the big difference with what is being compared here to other people's policies and why mine sounds so high.
I think you misunderstood your sales man. The inflation rider is on the coverage not the premium. You get 5% increase yearly from 10k per month. Doesn't mean the premium goes up that much.

JGone,
About half of the companies selling long-term care insurance (including two of the biggest names in the insurance industry) sell policies where the premium goes up every year as the benefits go up.

RARELY are those policies a good value. I would encourage the member to seek quotes from an independent agent and not someone who has the name of an insurance company on their business card.

If your "LTCi specialist" has the name of an insurance company on his/her business card, they are inclined (almost obligated) to only sell that company's policy. Seek out comparisons from an independent agent.








Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:51 pm
by sergeant
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:47 pm
mtmingus wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 am My fear of getting it:

they raise your premiums just before you may need it to force you out of the plans.
Fortunately, the regulators do not allow the insurance companies to do that.
Not only do they not do it, how could they possibly know that period of time just before you need the benefits? Do people think they have spies monitoring policy holders?

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:03 pm
by ncbill
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Do these partnership plans pay for at-home care & assisted living?

Most people won't ever NEED skilled nursing care...they'll die at one or the other of the above, which IMHO is better than being forced to go to the custodial side of a skilled nursing facility.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:17 pm
by WoW2012
ncbill wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:03 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Do these partnership plans pay for at-home care & assisted living?

Most people won't ever NEED skilled nursing care...they'll die at one or the other of the above, which IMHO is better than being forced to go to the custodial side of a skilled nursing facility.

Yes. These partnership plans pay for at-home care and assisted living.
99% of long-term care policies purchased today include benefits for home care and care in assisted-living facilities. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 80% of the people who need long-term care receive that care at home. Only 13% of people who need long-term care are in nursing homes. Currently about 2 out of every 3 long-term care insurance claims start at home.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:22 pm
by willthrill81
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:17 pm
ncbill wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:03 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Do these partnership plans pay for at-home care & assisted living?

Most people won't ever NEED skilled nursing care...they'll die at one or the other of the above, which IMHO is better than being forced to go to the custodial side of a skilled nursing facility.

Yes. These partnership plans pay for at-home care and assisted living.
99% of long-term care policies purchased today include benefits for home care and care in assisted-living facilities. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 80% of the people who need long-term care receive that care at home. Only 13% of people who need long-term care are in nursing homes. Currently about 2 out of every 3 long-term care insurance claims start at home.
Would you mind posting a link to data pertaining to how long people receive LTC at home vs. a facility? Most of the data I've seen pertains only to facilities, and I'm wondering if there are significant differences in how long people use LTC at home.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:27 pm
by WoW2012
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:22 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:17 pm
Yes. These partnership plans pay for at-home care and assisted living.
99% of long-term care policies purchased today include benefits for home care and care in assisted-living facilities. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 80% of the people who need long-term care receive that care at home. Only 13% of people who need long-term care are in nursing homes. Currently about 2 out of every 3 long-term care insurance claims start at home.
Would you mind posting a link to data pertaining to how long people receive LTC at home vs. a facility? Most of the data I've seen pertains only to facilities, and I'm wondering if there are significant differences in how long people use LTC at home.

There is no data about how long people use LTC at home. Most home care is provided by family members. Therefore, there is no way to gather the data.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 pm
by willthrill81
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:27 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:22 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:17 pm
Yes. These partnership plans pay for at-home care and assisted living.
99% of long-term care policies purchased today include benefits for home care and care in assisted-living facilities. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 80% of the people who need long-term care receive that care at home. Only 13% of people who need long-term care are in nursing homes. Currently about 2 out of every 3 long-term care insurance claims start at home.
Would you mind posting a link to data pertaining to how long people receive LTC at home vs. a facility? Most of the data I've seen pertains only to facilities, and I'm wondering if there are significant differences in how long people use LTC at home.

There is no data about how long people use LTC at home. Most home care is provided by family members. Therefore, there is no way to gather the data.
I see. I'm sure that the LTC insurance providers have such data since they're paying out claims for LTC needed at home, but very rarely do insurance companies share actuarial data with the public.

As such, we seem to be left with the assumption that people need LTC at home for the same length of time as they do at a LTC facility.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm
by WoW2012
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 pm
I see. I'm sure that the LTC insurance providers have such data since they're paying out claims for LTC needed at home, but very rarely do insurance companies share actuarial data with the public.

As such, we seem to be left with the assumption that people need LTC at home for the same length of time as they do at a LTC facility.

Why are we left with that assumption?
My conclusion would be just the opposite.
Most people prefer care at home and would therefore stay at home as long as possible.
Many people who need home care NEVER go to a facility.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:43 pm
by willthrill81
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 pm
I see. I'm sure that the LTC insurance providers have such data since they're paying out claims for LTC needed at home, but very rarely do insurance companies share actuarial data with the public.

As such, we seem to be left with the assumption that people need LTC at home for the same length of time as they do at a LTC facility.
Why are we left with that assumption?
My conclusion would be just the opposite.
Most people prefer care at home and would therefore stay at home as long as possible.
Many people who need home care NEVER go to a facility.
In the absence of data, conjecture is unfortunately the best we can do.

Do you know of any data showing the cost of LTC received at home? I doubt that there is since the level of care can vary so much. Some might only need a nurse or other professional to come by their home once or twice a day, while others might need 24/7 care.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:47 pm
by WoW2012
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:43 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 pm
I see. I'm sure that the LTC insurance providers have such data since they're paying out claims for LTC needed at home, but very rarely do insurance companies share actuarial data with the public.

As such, we seem to be left with the assumption that people need LTC at home for the same length of time as they do at a LTC facility.
Why are we left with that assumption?
My conclusion would be just the opposite.
Most people prefer care at home and would therefore stay at home as long as possible.
Many people who need home care NEVER go to a facility.
In the absence of data, conjecture is unfortunately the best we can do.

Do you know of any data showing the cost of LTC received at home? I doubt that there is since the level of care can vary so much. Some might only need a nurse or other professional to come by their home once or twice a day, while others might need 24/7 care.

In the absence of data, I think common sense is the best we can do.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:52 pm
by willthrill81
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:47 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:43 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:36 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:30 pm
I see. I'm sure that the LTC insurance providers have such data since they're paying out claims for LTC needed at home, but very rarely do insurance companies share actuarial data with the public.

As such, we seem to be left with the assumption that people need LTC at home for the same length of time as they do at a LTC facility.
Why are we left with that assumption?
My conclusion would be just the opposite.
Most people prefer care at home and would therefore stay at home as long as possible.
Many people who need home care NEVER go to a facility.
In the absence of data, conjecture is unfortunately the best we can do.

Do you know of any data showing the cost of LTC received at home? I doubt that there is since the level of care can vary so much. Some might only need a nurse or other professional to come by their home once or twice a day, while others might need 24/7 care.
In the absence of data, I think common sense is the best we can do.
The problem with common sense is that it's very uncommon.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:26 am
by FBN2014
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Do the partnership LTC policies include the hybrid plans offered by One America, Nationwide, Lincoln? How about whole life insurance with a living benefits rider?

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:06 pm
by WoW2012
FBN2014 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:26 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Do the partnership LTC policies include the hybrid plans offered by One America, Nationwide, Lincoln? How about whole life insurance with a living benefits rider?
No. Hybrid policies do NOT qualify as long-term care partnership policies.

But the insurance industry doesn't want you to know that. The industry, as a whole, would prefer everyone bought hybrids. There's a lot more profit in the hybrids than there is in traditional LTC insurance.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:43 pm
by FBN2014
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:06 pm
FBN2014 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:26 am
WoW2012 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:38 am
Mr.BB wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:30 am We just started looking at LTC insurance. The hard part is trying to figure out how much you need without becoming "insurance poor".
The rates (2 different companies) have range from about $300 a month for both of us with a 3% inflation ryder, comes out to be about $100 a day coverage for 3 years.
It's common, but I really don't see the point in most situations for folks to have LTC insurance that only covers the first three years. If you have enough assets to really justify buying LTC insurance, which is often largely a means of protecting your assets and not actually getting LTC since you'll qualify for Medicaid when your assets are gone, then you should be able to cover the first three years of LTC out of pocket. The LTC scenarios that could really put you in financial straits are those lasting longer than three years, much longer.

Someone with modest assets can protect all of their assets from Medicaid by buying an affordable Long-Term Care Partnership Program (if they live in one of the 44 states that offer these programs.) This is a special type of long-term care insurance which has changed the rules regarding Medicaid spend-down and Medicaid estate recovery.

The beauty of the Partnership Program is that you only have to buy an amount of long-term care insurance that is equal to the amount of assets you want to protect from Medicaid. This makes the policies very affordable for those with more modest assets.


Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Do the partnership LTC policies include the hybrid plans offered by One America, Nationwide, Lincoln? How about whole life insurance with a living benefits rider?
No. Hybrid policies do NOT qualify as long-term care partnership policies.

But the insurance industry doesn't want you to know that. The industry, as a whole, would prefer everyone bought hybrids. There's a lot more profit in the hybrids than there is in traditional LTC insurance.
Is there anyway to contact you off this board? I tried to send a private message but you have disabled it. Thanks

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:02 pm
by WoW2012
FBN2014 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:43 pm

Is there anyway to contact you off this board? I tried to send a private message but you have disabled it. Thanks

I've disabled private messages because I do not want to be accused of soliciting.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:41 am
by FBN2014
WoW2012 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:02 pm
FBN2014 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:43 pm

Is there anyway to contact you off this board? I tried to send a private message but you have disabled it. Thanks

I've disabled private messages because I do not want to be accused of soliciting.
Understood, can you point me to a third party website where I can get quotes for the partnership type plans that you spoke about?

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
by ScubaHogg
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 pm
by willthrill81
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.
I haven't been able to find good data on how many people under 50 need LTC, but the data suggests that it's rare, far lower than 20%. Over 95% of LTC insurance claims are filed by those older than age 70. The percentage of LTC residents under age 50 is probably something more like .2% or 1 in 500 residents.
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm In several of the threads about long-term care, some have noted that one of the big risks is needing significant long-term care at a relatively young age, such as in your 50s. But when I'm looking at the data on the subject, it seems that the likelihood of needing LTC at a residential care facility or nursing home before age 65 is tiny. Keep in mind that these numbers are only for those receiving care at an "institution" (i.e. a RCF or NH).

This table comes from the Congressional Budget Office's 2014 report on LTC. They reported that only 1.3% of those 65-74 are receiving LTC at an institution, and only 3.5% of those 75-84 are receiving the same. Compare that to the 13% of those 85 and older who need it.
Image
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... 63-ltc.pdf

Even data from the potentially biased American Association for Long-term Care Insurance reports that only 4.5% of initial LTC claims were made by those under age 70.
Image
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-in ... s-2019.php

While this doesn't provide data on how many of those younger than age 65 are receiving LTC at an institution, simple extrapolation indicates that the number is very low, close to zero. This is not to belittle or ignore those who do, but they most definitely appear to be in a tiny minority.

If anyone can find data that indicates how many of those under age 65 need LTC, I encourage them to share it.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pm
by WoW2012
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.
I haven't been able to find good data on how many people under 50 need LTC, but the data suggests that it's rare, far lower than 20%. Over 95% of LTC insurance claims are filed by those older than age 70. The percentage of LTC residents under age 50 is probably something more like .2% or 1 in 500 residents.
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm In several of the threads about long-term care, some have noted that one of the big risks is needing significant long-term care at a relatively young age, such as in your 50s. But when I'm looking at the data on the subject, it seems that the likelihood of needing LTC at a residential care facility or nursing home before age 65 is tiny. Keep in mind that these numbers are only for those receiving care at an "institution" (i.e. a RCF or NH).

This table comes from the Congressional Budget Office's 2014 report on LTC. They reported that only 1.3% of those 65-74 are receiving LTC at an institution, and only 3.5% of those 75-84 are receiving the same. Compare that to the 13% of those 85 and older who need it.
Image
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... 63-ltc.pdf

Even data from the potentially biased American Association for Long-term Care Insurance reports that only 4.5% of initial LTC claims were made by those under age 70.
Image
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-in ... s-2019.php

While this doesn't provide data on how many of those younger than age 65 are receiving LTC at an institution, simple extrapolation indicates that the number is very low, close to zero. This is not to belittle or ignore those who do, but they most definitely appear to be in a tiny minority.

If anyone can find data that indicates how many of those under age 65 need LTC, I encourage them to share it.


Since 80% of the people who need long-term care receive their care at home, facility statistics are not much help.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:52 pm
by willthrill81
WoW2012 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.
I haven't been able to find good data on how many people under 50 need LTC, but the data suggests that it's rare, far lower than 20%. Over 95% of LTC insurance claims are filed by those older than age 70. The percentage of LTC residents under age 50 is probably something more like .2% or 1 in 500 residents.
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm In several of the threads about long-term care, some have noted that one of the big risks is needing significant long-term care at a relatively young age, such as in your 50s. But when I'm looking at the data on the subject, it seems that the likelihood of needing LTC at a residential care facility or nursing home before age 65 is tiny. Keep in mind that these numbers are only for those receiving care at an "institution" (i.e. a RCF or NH).

This table comes from the Congressional Budget Office's 2014 report on LTC. They reported that only 1.3% of those 65-74 are receiving LTC at an institution, and only 3.5% of those 75-84 are receiving the same. Compare that to the 13% of those 85 and older who need it.
Image
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... 63-ltc.pdf

Even data from the potentially biased American Association for Long-term Care Insurance reports that only 4.5% of initial LTC claims were made by those under age 70.
Image
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-in ... s-2019.php

While this doesn't provide data on how many of those younger than age 65 are receiving LTC at an institution, simple extrapolation indicates that the number is very low, close to zero. This is not to belittle or ignore those who do, but they most definitely appear to be in a tiny minority.

If anyone can find data that indicates how many of those under age 65 need LTC, I encourage them to share it.
Since 80% of the people who need long-term care receive their care at home, facility statistics are not much help.
Perhaps, but it seems that such data are the only data we currently have.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:55 am
by smitcat
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:52 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.
I haven't been able to find good data on how many people under 50 need LTC, but the data suggests that it's rare, far lower than 20%. Over 95% of LTC insurance claims are filed by those older than age 70. The percentage of LTC residents under age 50 is probably something more like .2% or 1 in 500 residents.
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm In several of the threads about long-term care, some have noted that one of the big risks is needing significant long-term care at a relatively young age, such as in your 50s. But when I'm looking at the data on the subject, it seems that the likelihood of needing LTC at a residential care facility or nursing home before age 65 is tiny. Keep in mind that these numbers are only for those receiving care at an "institution" (i.e. a RCF or NH).

This table comes from the Congressional Budget Office's 2014 report on LTC. They reported that only 1.3% of those 65-74 are receiving LTC at an institution, and only 3.5% of those 75-84 are receiving the same. Compare that to the 13% of those 85 and older who need it.
Image
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... 63-ltc.pdf

Even data from the potentially biased American Association for Long-term Care Insurance reports that only 4.5% of initial LTC claims were made by those under age 70.
Image
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-in ... s-2019.php

While this doesn't provide data on how many of those younger than age 65 are receiving LTC at an institution, simple extrapolation indicates that the number is very low, close to zero. This is not to belittle or ignore those who do, but they most definitely appear to be in a tiny minority.

If anyone can find data that indicates how many of those under age 65 need LTC, I encourage them to share it.
Since 80% of the people who need long-term care receive their care at home, facility statistics are not much help.
Perhaps, but it seems that such data are the only data we currently have.
We have our experience and the patterns of in home services supplied by many folks that we know.
There are many industries built upon in home services - perhaps start there if that has some value to you.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:08 am
by willthrill81
smitcat wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:55 am
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:52 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pmSince 80% of the people who need long-term care receive their care at home, facility statistics are not much help.
Perhaps, but it seems that such data are the only data we currently have.
We have our experience and the patterns of in home services supplied by many folks that we know.
There are many industries built upon in home services - perhaps start there if that has some value to you.
If you have access to such data, please share it. Many here would be interested in seeing them.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:22 am
by smitcat
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:08 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:55 am
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:52 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pmSince 80% of the people who need long-term care receive their care at home, facility statistics are not much help.
Perhaps, but it seems that such data are the only data we currently have.
We have our experience and the patterns of in home services supplied by many folks that we know.
There are many industries built upon in home services - perhaps start there if that has some value to you.
If you have access to such data, please share it. Many here would be interested in seeing them.
You can research all of the in home nursing, rehab specialists, SLP's, DPC's and OT's business's that operate in your area.
Also for those that have not spent much time in Medicare supported facilities it is often an eye opener to spend more than just a few minutes visiting those facilities.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:18 pm
by ScubaHogg
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.
I haven't been able to find good data on how many people under 50 need LTC, but the data suggests that it's rare, far lower than 20%. Over 95% of LTC insurance claims are filed by those older than age 70. The percentage of LTC residents under age 50 is probably something more like .2% or 1 in 500 residents.
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm In several of the threads about long-term care, some have noted that one of the big risks is needing significant long-term care at a relatively young age, such as in your 50s. But when I'm looking at the data on the subject, it seems that the likelihood of needing LTC at a residential care facility or nursing home before age 65 is tiny. Keep in mind that these numbers are only for those receiving care at an "institution" (i.e. a RCF or NH).

This table comes from the Congressional Budget Office's 2014 report on LTC. They reported that only 1.3% of those 65-74 are receiving LTC at an institution, and only 3.5% of those 75-84 are receiving the same. Compare that to the 13% of those 85 and older who need it.
Image
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... 63-ltc.pdf

Even data from the potentially biased American Association for Long-term Care Insurance reports that only 4.5% of initial LTC claims were made by those under age 70.
Image
http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-in ... s-2019.php

While this doesn't provide data on how many of those younger than age 65 are receiving LTC at an institution, simple extrapolation indicates that the number is very low, close to zero. This is not to belittle or ignore those who do, but they most definitely appear to be in a tiny minority.

If anyone can find data that indicates how many of those under age 65 need LTC, I encourage them to share it.
That is much more in line with my wife's anecdotal experience. There are the rare folks under 50, but typically they are someone who either, a) was in an accident and needs a very, very short term full time care and can't have it provided at home, b) an occasional person with such a serious TBI/injury they never fully recover, or c) someone who has baked their brain with drugs/alcohol. But they are the rare exception.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:12 am
by JPM
At this point LTCi is a luxury good and few people can comfortably afford it. Insurers don't like it because experience has shown that actuarial methods have turned out not to be very applicable to this type of insurance. Past experience in this area of business has not projected accurately into the future.

The longevity revolution has made life insurance unexpectedly profitable for the insurers and made LTCi unexpectedly unprofitable. As people survive cardiac events and cancers much more often now than they did 20, 30, and 40 years ago they live on to get either additional cardiac events, additional cancers, or neurodegenerative diseases. It is the neurodegenerative diseases that can result in long stretches in long term care facilities. We didn't have Alzheimer's units or memory care institutions until the last 20 years or maybe less. It is only recently that a market has developed for this type of facility.

Some people get Alzheimer's or Parkinsonism young but the vast majority of people with these problems are elderly and in general, the older you are the more likely to develop them.

The better educated and wealthier you are, the less likely you are to have bad habits that lead to premature death and the more likely you are to get good medical and so more likely to live past the median life expectancy. The more likely you are to live past the median life expectancy the more likely you are to develop a neurodegenerative disease like dementia, Parkinsonism, or both.

If you are smoking two packs per day and washing the tobacco stains down with a couple of manhattans there is no point in getting LTCi or even in maxing your 401K as Humble Dollar remarked. If you are poor, reckless, or foolish LTCi is a waste of money. But if you are healthy, wealthy, and wise you are more likely to live long and so have a greater likelihood of need of LTCi and it may be a better deal for you if you can afford it.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:56 pm
by willthrill81
WoW2012 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:19 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:49 pm
Rwsawbones wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:26 pm It is not only the elderly who require long term care. Illness and injury result in about 20 % of LTC Residents being younger than 50. Ailments that one can collect in one’s 50s can make one uninsurable
Um, do you have a source? My wife works in a variety of LTC, Skilled Nursing Facilities, and Assisted Living Communities and has all around the country. 20% of residents being under 50 seems way too high.
I haven't been able to find good data on how many people under 50 need LTC, but the data suggests that it's rare, far lower than 20%. Over 95% of LTC insurance claims are filed by those older than age 70. The percentage of LTC residents under age 50 is probably something more like .2% or 1 in 500 residents.
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 pm In several of the threads about long-term care, some have noted that one of the big risks is needing significant long-term care at a relatively young age, such as in your 50s. But when I'm looking at the data on the subject, it seems that the likelihood of needing LTC at a residential care facility or nursing home before age 65 is tiny. Keep in mind that these numbers are only for those receiving care at an "institution" (i.e. a RCF or NH).

This table comes from the Congressional Budget Office's 2014 report on LTC. They reported that only 1.3% of those 65-74 are receiving LTC at an institution, and only 3.5% of those 75-84 are receiving the same. Compare that to the 13% of those 85 and older who need it.
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https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... 63-ltc.pdf

Even data from the potentially biased American Association for Long-term Care Insurance reports that only 4.5% of initial LTC claims were made by those under age 70.
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http://www.aaltci.org/long-term-care-in ... s-2019.php

While this doesn't provide data on how many of those younger than age 65 are receiving LTC at an institution, simple extrapolation indicates that the number is very low, close to zero. This is not to belittle or ignore those who do, but they most definitely appear to be in a tiny minority.

If anyone can find data that indicates how many of those under age 65 need LTC, I encourage them to share it.
Since 80% of the people who need long-term care receive their care at home, facility statistics are not much help.
The second source I quoted, the American Association for Long-term Care Insurance, notes that only 4.5% of LTCi claims were for those under age 70. This includes home care.

Re: Why I don't think I should get long term care insurance right now

Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:21 am
by Gardner's Son
While I have forgotten all of the particulars, I (male) bought a LTC policy when I turned 55 (2005) for about $2,000/year. I am now 69. I believe it covered $300/day with a max of $1,000,000 total coverage? As owners of a small business, we deducted this expense. After 20 years, the policy is completely paid off and coverage continues until needed or not. Each year there was an option to pay a bit more for inflation - it was not much more per month and typically we purchased this option. There was a 30 or 60-day waiting period. In other words, I couldn't receive benefits right a way if I qualified based on the 3 daily chores (i.e., change clothes by myself, bath, feed, etc.) I could not do. It included home care which I was very interested in. It was a NY Life product - well-written and sound. Each year we get a letter from NY Life regarding the inflation option. I doubt that this policy is still being sold as the price was very reasonable and health care costs have gotten crazy over the past 10 years.

At the time (2005), I was in the process of transitioning from a teaching job to free lance consulting/grant writing and wanted to have something to fall back on if we didn't make the jump successfully. At this time, we could weather the LTC storm with the available resources accumulated over the past 15 or so years. Hope we never have to use it!