Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

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HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am

international001 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:28 pm
It looks to me most of the people here is very boglehead and the work is very money oriented
You have to balance it against family, but work *may* also be a source of satisfaction by itself

If you are doing it just for money, it's logical and empirically asserted that after some point you'll prefer to work less
You have to find your optimal spot. It's kind of the efficient frontier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_ ... _of_labour
+1.

Do people really only work for the money? Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.

This week I built a sales pipeline model for one of our business units that had no visibility into its performance beyond how they were trending compared to past periods. Using live Salesforce data, my model was able to diagnose exactly how they were doing at each stage of the sales cycle (e.g. generating marketing leads, qualifying leads into sales opportunities, closing those opportunities, realizing revenue from those booked deals, realizing revenue from existing deals), and produced a forecast of what the BU could expect for the rest of the year if they kept up the pace. After the numbers were crunched, it turned out that the conventional wisdom on why the BU was underperforming was wrong, that the issue was actually at a different stage in the sales pipeline.

The results went in front of our Chief Product Officer today, and the insights were warmly received. Decisions were made, resources realigned, and now everyone is confident we’ve identified the root cause and are properly addressing it.

Just another week’s work.

investingdad
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by investingdad » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:45 am

financeidiot wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:38 pm
Sharks gotta swim.

In terms of "time" or "busyness" a lot of what we hear is made up. It's more important to appear busy than to actually be busy. There was an HBR study awhile back on how employees at a consulting firm represent their hours to make themselves appear more busy vs. hours actually worked (https://hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pr ... hour-weeks). Was illuminating and as soon as I changed some of my language and self-marketing (not my hours) I immediately got more compliments, more selection over my work, and more pay, even though my actual workload is the same.
Interesting article.

My manager is both younger than me and a woman. In fact, my small team is mostly women. All of us have kids of varying ages.

You know what one of the benefits of that is? I never have to explain why I'm leaving early or working from home for dad related responsibilities.

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Horton
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Horton » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:58 am

daheld wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:03 am
livesoft wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:49 am
Because you will be fired to make room for the people that you are blocking behind you.
Where I work, the inverse is actually true. The higher you climb, the easier it is for you to be fired.
Same here. I refer to this as the Sword of Damocles effect:
According to the story, Damocles was pandering to Dionysius, his king, and exclaimed to him that Dionysius was truly fortunate as a great man of power and authority, surrounded by magnificence. In response, Dionysius offered to switch places with Damocles for one day so that Damocles could taste that very fortune firsthand. Damocles quickly and eagerly accepted the king's proposal. Damocles sat down in the king's throne surrounded by every luxury, but Dionysius, who had made many enemies during his reign, arranged that a huge sword should hang above the throne, held at the pommel only by a single hair of a horse's tail to evoke the sense of what it is like to be king: though having much fortune, always having to watch in fear and anxiety against dangers that might try to overtake him. Damocles finally begged the king that he be allowed to depart because he no longer wanted to be so fortunate, realizing that with great fortune and power comes also great danger.

King Dionysius effectively conveyed the sense of constant fear in which a person with great power may live. Cicero used this story as the last in a series of contrasting examples for reaching the conclusion towards which he had been moving in this fifth Disputation, in which the theme is that having virtue is sufficient for living a happy life. Cicero asks, "Does not Dionysius seem to have made it sufficiently clear that there can be nothing happy for the person over whom some fear always looms?"

stoptothink
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by stoptothink » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:21 am

investingdad wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:45 am
financeidiot wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:38 pm
Sharks gotta swim.

In terms of "time" or "busyness" a lot of what we hear is made up. It's more important to appear busy than to actually be busy. There was an HBR study awhile back on how employees at a consulting firm represent their hours to make themselves appear more busy vs. hours actually worked (https://hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pr ... hour-weeks). Was illuminating and as soon as I changed some of my language and self-marketing (not my hours) I immediately got more compliments, more selection over my work, and more pay, even though my actual workload is the same.
Interesting article.

My manager is both younger than me and a woman. In fact, my small team is mostly women. All of us have kids of varying ages.

You know what one of the benefits of that is? I never have to explain why I'm leaving early or working from home for dad related responsibilities.
I'm in a similar environment, although my boss (CMO) is a man. He's on the road (or in the air) ~280 days a year, which has it pros and cons. I don't know exact numbers, but my guess is our employee demographics are probably 60% female and more than half of the upper management positions are held by woman, all but one, as far as I know, that is also a mother. I'm in upper management so I don't really have to explain to anyone that I won't be in the office (and I work every Wednesday and every other Friday from home as it is), but this sentiment is pretty clear across the entire company: your family comes first. It isn't too big of a deal for my staff because they are generally younger and only a few have kids, but nobody is getting a gold star for working more hours. Nobody is punching a clock, production is the only determinant of their value.

The "acting like you are busy" is very real. I was formerly in public health, there was nobody I worked with (including myself) in nearly a decade, for 3 different public entities, who legitimately was working more than 25hrs/week. The biggest stress of the job was trying to look busy. So glad to be out of that apathy and mediocrity fostering environment.

bck63
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by bck63 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:27 am

bigtex wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 am
Whats the point of climbing the corporate ladder if I'm fine with my current salary and position and can hit all my financial goals without future promotions raises etc? I am at a point where boss says I can be promoted but must be willing to work more hours be available at all times of day etc. Basically my work life balance spending time with family and kids goes away but now I make more money. Why not just stay where I am if I can still hit my financial goals for retirement etc?
I'm a male registered nurse. It's often said in nursing that males stay in the clinical side of the field for only short period of time before they go into management.

Not me. I love my work, and have no desire to be in management. I am an hourly employee and it feels good that my skills have a specific value in the marketplace on an hourly basis. Overtime greatly increases my portfolio.

As I tell my wife, who is a manager in state government, "I strive for the bottom of the totem pole." :happy

investingdad
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by investingdad » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:32 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:21 am
investingdad wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:45 am
financeidiot wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:38 pm
Sharks gotta swim.

In terms of "time" or "busyness" a lot of what we hear is made up. It's more important to appear busy than to actually be busy. There was an HBR study awhile back on how employees at a consulting firm represent their hours to make themselves appear more busy vs. hours actually worked (https://hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pr ... hour-weeks). Was illuminating and as soon as I changed some of my language and self-marketing (not my hours) I immediately got more compliments, more selection over my work, and more pay, even though my actual workload is the same.
Interesting article.

My manager is both younger than me and a woman. In fact, my small team is mostly women. All of us have kids of varying ages.

You know what one of the benefits of that is? I never have to explain why I'm leaving early or working from home for dad related responsibilities.
I'm in upper management so I don't really have to explain to anyone that I won't be in the office (and I work every Wednesday and every other Friday from home as it is), but this sentiment is pretty clear across the entire company: your family comes first.
I'm not in upper management, but our small group is entirely senior people. Our manager knows she can hand any of us a complex project with only a completon date for guidance and, months later, we'll sit for a first and final review before submission to the top folks and everything is done.

That grants all of us very high degrees of flexibility and autonomy.

investingdad
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by investingdad » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:34 am

bck63 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:27 am
bigtex wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 am
Whats the point of climbing the corporate ladder if I'm fine with my current salary and position and can hit all my financial goals without future promotions raises etc? I am at a point where boss says I can be promoted but must be willing to work more hours be available at all times of day etc. Basically my work life balance spending time with family and kids goes away but now I make more money. Why not just stay where I am if I can still hit my financial goals for retirement etc?
I'm a male registered nurse. It's often said in nursing that males stay in the clinical side of the field for only short period of time before they go into management.

Not me. I love my work, and have no desire to be in management. I am an hourly employee and it feels good that my skills have a specific value in the marketplace on an hourly basis. Overtime greatly increases my portfolio.

As I tell my wife, who is a manager in state government, "I strive for the bottom of the totem pole." :happy
RN isn't exactly bottom of the totem pole type work.

bck63
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by bck63 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:42 am

investingdad wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:34 am
bck63 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:27 am
bigtex wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 am
Whats the point of climbing the corporate ladder if I'm fine with my current salary and position and can hit all my financial goals without future promotions raises etc? I am at a point where boss says I can be promoted but must be willing to work more hours be available at all times of day etc. Basically my work life balance spending time with family and kids goes away but now I make more money. Why not just stay where I am if I can still hit my financial goals for retirement etc?
I'm a male registered nurse. It's often said in nursing that males stay in the clinical side of the field for only short period of time before they go into management.

Not me. I love my work, and have no desire to be in management. I am an hourly employee and it feels good that my skills have a specific value in the marketplace on an hourly basis. Overtime greatly increases my portfolio.

As I tell my wife, who is a manager in state government, "I strive for the bottom of the totem pole." :happy
RN isn't exactly bottom of the totem pole type work.
Hey! Thank you my friend! What a kind thing to say. I LOVE my work. I just meant from a managerial perspective. I don't want to manage anyone. I got a good gig. OTOH, what I always tell my wife is that thank goodness there are people who want to manage and are able to do it well. She, for example, is an excellent leader and her staff relies on her tremendously. I'd work for her any day. Actually, I already do. :happy

Cycle
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Cycle » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:46 am

From an interview with Dominique Foxworth on Freakonomics. Foxworth was an NFL player for a few years, who then got an MBA and was COO of the NBA players union and president of the NFL players union.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/domonique-foxworth/
Yeah. I was the chief operating officer there, and there was a lot of things going on at the time, a lot of transition there. But being a chief operating officer was something that sounded good and paid well and I was very proud of. But it’s a lot of operating, frankly, which is — I remember living in New York, and my wife was pregnant with our third child, and she was not feeling good, and I was getting up at 6:30 a.m. to ride the subway to work with a bunch of other people who weren’t happy about where they were going to work. And I’d be there until 7:00 p.m. at night working, working, working, working. And I remember being on the subway thinking, “Am I happy? I have enough money that I don’t have to be unhappy. All these people who are on here with me, they have to go to work. And I don’t have to go to work.” So then I quit.

And I started writing for fun, and that’s what landed me at E.S.P.N. But to be completely frank with you, there’s some focus and clarity that scarcity brings to your life, and I don’t say this because I want to go back to a state when I was not sure, financially. I like being in a comfortable financial state. But there’s something to be said for the focus and clarity of, “Oh no, I’ve got to do this, because I got to feed my family.” And when you don’t have that focus and clarity, there’s something a bit frightening, honestly, about always feeling like, “What should I be doing with this gift, frankly, that I have? This gift of of flexibility and independence?” And sometimes in the job that I have now, I went to business school in part because I fancy myself as a smart person who is more than an athlete. And I wanted to get away from this, so there’s parts of me that’s embarrassed that I write about sports. Talk about sports.

But then there’s parts of me that’s like, “This awesome. It’s kind of flexible. I get to do fun things. I get to be — pick up my kids from school and take them to school.” And so it just depends on the day, where sometimes I’m like, “I should be chasing some big professional glory, and I’m wasting time. Or some days I’m doing just exactly what I should be doing, or well, I should be spending more time with my kids and my wife because I have this flexibility.” So when you have that scarcity to focus your thought, it’s very clear what you should be doing. And it’s an interesting thing to happen to somebody at this age. It feels more of a midlife thing. And for athletes it’s a unique thing. Successful athletes, it’s a unique thing, that in your 20s or 30s. You’re like, “Now what?”
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way

dcw213
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by dcw213 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:59 am

Great question and a lot of good responses thus far. I feel like I am a good case study as I never had ambition to climb the ladder but fell into the opportunity due to consistent good work and, frankly, a "lucky" and odd sequence of events. I did not, nor would I have, put in the political effort often required, it just happened out of nowhere.

I found myself at the crossroads you describe - presented with an opportunity that it was obvious I should take and that I should want based on conventional wisdom. Problem was, I was happy doing what I was doing and didnt want the added hours, stress, and managerial responsibilities that were certain to come with the opportunity. I was also unusually young to be given the opportunity which added to my stress, as a lot of my colleagues and allys would now be resentful and talk behind my back. I didn't want any of that! Plus I wasn't sure I would even be good at senior management (I wasn't at first).

My first few years were filled with stress and misery. I thought about quitting constantly. I got no pleasure from the "status" and missed my old life with more balance and generally free nights and weekends. I stuck with it out of necessity (still a modest net worth) and lack of alternatives. It was truly a difficult 5 years and strained my sanity and marriage.

However, as others have said, I was amazed at the raises and bonuses after proving ability to perform. After 2 years or so my compensation increased dramatically. At the same time I was getting better at the new job and things were seeming easier. Time blurred for a bit as more years went by and all of a sudden I was knocking at the door of being financially independent in my mid 30s (we kept our low key lifestyle despite the income increase). This has been a tremendous luxury and takes lots of stress off of the job knowing I will be ok if anything were to happen.

My wife and I had a baby and I pulled back on the hours big time (just started leaving at 6 every day) and was surprised how it was tolerated. I have had people making comments and I just say that I have to be home for family reasons and 90% of the time it is accepted.

In summary, I climbed the corporate ladder unwillingly and hated it. I probably diminished about 5 years of my youth and enjoyment of life and my pre kids married days which I can't get back. However, a few short years later I have financial freedom I didn't think I would have for another few decades. It's a tough trade off and I go back and forth on whether it has been worth it. I still daydream about scaling back to something less stressful, which I might try to do eventually but I think it will be a challenge to walk away. At least I have succeeded in setting boundaries for time with my family and am much happier now vs the first 5 years.

Cycle
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Cycle » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am

investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way

blackholescion
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by blackholescion » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:05 am

Cycle wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am
investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
It’s a good question. People with higher stress and time involved jobs tend to outsource a lot of their daily tasks which means spending more money. I would argue they should do that anyway to give themselves more time. We do it for things like housecleaning but we also hate cleaning so it works out.

On the flip side, a lot of the higher ups I know also tend to do things like hire a “fee only” financial advisor that charges 1% or more because they don't have time to learn or got bad advice or can’t be bothered.

Their peers are also different and used to different standards. Keeping up with the joneses is a lot more expensive that high up. Our EVP though is notoriously frugal. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s sitting on 50m and working for the enjoyment of it.

staythecourse
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by staythecourse » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:28 am

Great thread. I would think the key is making sure your skill set is always current and working hard to improve your knowledge base to your bosses every day/ year. I am sure there is a difference to the boss of the employee who is coasting for a paycheck vs. the one that is cutting edge and works hard, but just doesn't want extra responsibilities for x, y, or z reason.

In the end the way not to get canned is the same in ANY job in the world. You have to justify your salary and future pension (if any) obligations to the level of service you are providing to the company. If they can get the same production and level of expertise in someone 10 years younger and thus lower paid why wouldn't they? We do the same everyday on this site looking for the lowest index funds.

Good luck
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

dknightd
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by dknightd » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:53 am

I think the point is to make more money, or feel more important, or both.
Neither were priorities to me. Sometimes I think that was a mistake

Tigermoose
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Tigermoose » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:27 pm

bigtex wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 am
Whats the point of climbing the corporate ladder if I'm fine with my current salary and position and can hit all my financial goals without future promotions raises etc? I am at a point where boss says I can be promoted but must be willing to work more hours be available at all times of day etc. Basically my work life balance spending time with family and kids goes away but now I make more money. Why not just stay where I am if I can still hit my financial goals for retirement etc?
I'm kind of at that point too. I want to go to the next level so that I can more effectively and positively contribute to my company. I believe in our mission and ultimately that helps save lives. Maybe you need to change to a company whose mission you believe in?
Institutions matter

HornedToad
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by HornedToad » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:07 pm

I think about this as well. More in the context of whether to stay at my same company or look at switching for career advancement. Currently I have minimal commute, believe in our mission, make decent money, like the people I work with and I am respected at work. All of that keeps me here.

I am trying to climb the ladder in place within the bounds of staying technical, but I recognize that being unwilling to jump companies does limit the salary and career growth opportunities. It just hasn't been worth it for me to go from no commute to a 60-90 min+ roundtrip commute in order to advance faster and family/kids consideration also comes into play in that evaluation.

international001
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by international001 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:34 pm

You can turn arguments around.

Why bring kids into this world if you don't want to commit time with them? Or have a relationship for the same reasons?
It's fine to dedicate your life for a job you enjoy or think it has meaning in whatever way (once money is not the issue). But it's being hypocritical with yourself that there are no compromises.

harrychan
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by harrychan » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:59 pm

For me, climbing the corporate ladder allowed me to maximize my skill set which increased my pay and flexibility. I graduated as an engineer and entered corporate America as a techie. Very soon I realized that I couldn't keep up with the technology to be a great engineer and intentionally found ways to get into management. In most occupations, you can get paid a decent salary in two ways. One is by being great at what you do or to be able to bring two or more skills to the table. For me, it was being a great people manager while being technical. Among my peers, I was the only one who knew how to code which made me extremely valuable as I was able to go in and review technical details or evaluate root causes. This also helped me go from a telecom into healthcare because my translatable skills applied across verticals.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.

Prahasaurus
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Prahasaurus » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:18 am

bigtex wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 am
I am at a point where boss says I can be promoted but must be willing to work more hours be available at all times of day etc.
I would probably want to know two things:

1 - Is the work you are doing in high demand, e.g. are you a software engineer, can you easily find a job doing what you do with multiple companies, even work remotely, etc.? Or, are you doing something that is not really in high demand, where you need to be in the office all day, and losing your job could mean 1-2 years of searching? If it's the latter, you may have an issue.

2 - How did this conversation happen? Was it a friendly hypothetical that you brought up over lunch? Did your boss instigate it in a more formal way? If so, that could be a red flag. The boss could be trying to tell you that you are not working the hours he/she expects. Linking it to a promotion could be the way to try to motive you into working harder. With the subtle threat that you need to do more now...

The US (assuming you are American) has few protections for workers. You could be doing a great job for 10 years, refuse a promotion, and get fired the next day for not being a "go getter," and receive little or no compensation. So you need to be very careful. If my boss was dropping subtle hints that I'm not working hard or long enough, I think I would either adapt or begin to aggressively look for a new job.

SQRT
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by SQRT » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:23 am

dknightd wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:53 am
I think the point is to make more money, or feel more important, or both.
Neither were priorities to me. Sometimes I think that was a mistake
That’s mostly it although I doubt a desire to “feel important” is a major contributor. Many people might also have an internal desire to “succeed” ie self actualization. I must admit,for me it was mostly about the money and a desire to “succeed”. Often (in my case) the rewards were so overwhelmingly worth it, it’s hard not to at least try for it. Foregoing a little time and feeling some more stress may result in an order of magnitude or more assets in retirement. For some people it’s worth it (was for me) but I can see how for others it wouldn’t be. As long as you keep improving your worth to your employer, enjoy your job and respect your co- workers it will all work out.
Last edited by SQRT on Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

Bacchus01
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:37 am

dknightd wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:53 am
I think the point is to make more money, or feel more important, or both.
Neither were priorities to me. Sometimes I think that was a mistake
Never ever felt the need to “feel more important.” That is not leadership at all.

I have had a strong desire to succeed and also to use my skills and influence to help others succeed.

mak1277
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by mak1277 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am

Cycle wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am
investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.

Bacchus01
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:52 am

mak1277 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am
Cycle wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am
investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.

I started working at 14. I graduated college in 1997 and have worked up the ladder since day 1. I pulled my cumulative SS earnings at the end of last year and was about $4.5M. I’d say all in gross closer to $5M. I’m at a point now that I’ll make that same amount in the next three years. 31 years of working will likely be done in just the next 3.

Salary compounding >>>> investment compounding

AZAttorney11
Posts: 618
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by AZAttorney11 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.

AZAttorney11
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:12 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by AZAttorney11 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:05 am

mak1277 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.
This. This forum does a great job of discussing low-cost investing, living below your means, etc., but I don't think enough time is dedicated to the top line of the personal P&L. Given the right capabilities and set of circumstances, plus good health and a dash of good luck, it's substantially easier to reach financial independence by making a ton of money and saving a lot of it.

Bacchus01
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am

AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 3973
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:28 am

mak1277 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am
Cycle wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am
investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.
Totally agree. There should be a subforum on how to increase income.

AZAttorney11
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:12 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by AZAttorney11 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 200,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.

stoptothink
Posts: 6791
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by stoptothink » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:48 am

AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 2000,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.
My boss, chief medical officer for a company with $4B+ in annual revenue, traveled 288 days last year. It's been like that for 10yrs. He has perpetual jet lag. He has a 22yr old son he doesn't know at all. When he first interviewed me he jokingly asked how I'd feel about teaching his son about girls and sports. There was a lot of truth behind that joke. He has this unhealthy belief that everybody is always gunning for his job. There are 4 of us who probably could and would be in line when he retires, myself included, but none of us want it; at least with the current responsibilities. An extreme example, but getting to know him has had a profound influence on my overall goals. I'd love to make a lot more money, but there are boundaries. All of my colleagues that are higher on the pay scale travel A LOT. I am able to keep it to about 30 days a year. Last year I turned down an offer with a 40% raise from our primary competitor, primarily because they were upfront that I'd be traveling a lot. If my wife was willing to stay home with the kids - maybe - but she's maybe more career-driven then me and travels at least as much as I do (she's been gone for 4 days and doesn't return until Thursday night). High compensation comes from the ability to do things others can't or are unwilling to do. There are always compromises.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 3973
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 am

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:48 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 2000,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.
My boss, chief medical officer for a company with $4B+ in annual revenue, traveled 288 days last year. It's been like that for 10yrs. He has perpetual jet lag. He has a 22yr old son he doesn't know at all. When he first interviewed me he jokingly asked how I'd feel about teaching his son about girls and sports. There was a lot of truth behind that joke. He has this unhealthy belief that everybody is always gunning for his job. There are 4 of us who probably could and would be in line when he retires, myself included, but none of us want it; at least with the current responsibilities. An extreme example, but getting to know him has had a profound influence on my overall goals. I'd love to make a lot more money, but there are boundaries. All of my colleagues that are higher on the pay scale travel A LOT. I am able to keep it to about 30 days a year. Last year I turned down an offer with a 40% raise from our primary competitor, primarily because they were upfront that I'd be traveling a lot. If my wife was willing to stay home with the kids - maybe - but she's maybe more career-driven then me and travels at least as much as I do (she's been gone for 4 days and doesn't return until Thursday night). High compensation comes from the ability to do things others can't or are unwilling to do. There are always compromises.
These are written like sob stories, but let’s be honest. If your boss gained as much utility out of spending time with the kids as he does from the money, power, and respect of a senior executive, then he would have gotten off the road long ago.

The market is efficient. Those who care about family will prioritize family. Those who don’t, won’t.

stoptothink
Posts: 6791
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by stoptothink » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:10 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:55 am
stoptothink wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:48 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am


Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 2000,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.
My boss, chief medical officer for a company with $4B+ in annual revenue, traveled 288 days last year. It's been like that for 10yrs. He has perpetual jet lag. He has a 22yr old son he doesn't know at all. When he first interviewed me he jokingly asked how I'd feel about teaching his son about girls and sports. There was a lot of truth behind that joke. He has this unhealthy belief that everybody is always gunning for his job. There are 4 of us who probably could and would be in line when he retires, myself included, but none of us want it; at least with the current responsibilities. An extreme example, but getting to know him has had a profound influence on my overall goals. I'd love to make a lot more money, but there are boundaries. All of my colleagues that are higher on the pay scale travel A LOT. I am able to keep it to about 30 days a year. Last year I turned down an offer with a 40% raise from our primary competitor, primarily because they were upfront that I'd be traveling a lot. If my wife was willing to stay home with the kids - maybe - but she's maybe more career-driven then me and travels at least as much as I do (she's been gone for 4 days and doesn't return until Thursday night). High compensation comes from the ability to do things others can't or are unwilling to do. There are always compromises.
These are written like sob stories, but let’s be honest. If your boss gained as much utility out of spending time with the kids as he does from the money, power, and respect of a senior executive, then he would have gotten off the road long ago.

The market is efficient. Those who care about family will prioritize family. Those who don’t, won’t.
Don't disagree at all. His identity is as this powerful important person; his ego is insane. It makes him feel more fulfilled than have a healthy family life. He made that choice. He's a good dude, but I'd be curious what his wife and kids actually think. It's an extreme example, but it is the one that is right in front of my face. I'm all about climbing the ladder, but that's my boundary; I'm not traveling that much. I grew up without a father, I'm not doing that to my kids in exchange for higher income. I also have that freedom because at my current income we do pretty well.

surfstar
Posts: 1888
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by surfstar » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am
international001 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:28 pm
It looks to me most of the people here is very boglehead and the work is very money oriented
You have to balance it against family, but work *may* also be a source of satisfaction by itself

If you are doing it just for money, it's logical and empirically asserted that after some point you'll prefer to work less
You have to find your optimal spot. It's kind of the efficient frontier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_ ... _of_labour
+1.

Do people really only work for the money?
Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.

This week I built a sales pipeline model for one of our business units that had no visibility into its performance beyond how they were trending compared to past periods. Using live Salesforce data, my model was able to diagnose exactly how they were doing at each stage of the sales cycle (e.g. generating marketing leads, qualifying leads into sales opportunities, closing those opportunities, realizing revenue from those booked deals, realizing revenue from existing deals), and produced a forecast of what the BU could expect for the rest of the year if they kept up the pace. After the numbers were crunched, it turned out that the conventional wisdom on why the BU was underperforming was wrong, that the issue was actually at a different stage in the sales pipeline.

The results went in front of our Chief Product Officer today, and the insights were warmly received. Decisions were made, resources realigned, and now everyone is confident we’ve identified the root cause and are properly addressing it.

Just another week’s work.
Yes, people do.
As soon as I no longer need the money from working, I will no longer be working. I don't "owe" anything to society and don't receive any satisfaction from working. I have much better things to do with my life than work. Unfortunately those things require time and money, which requires work.
There's a whole world out there to explore - I know what my work desk looks like, why spend a second more of time here than is necessary?

SQRT
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:44 am

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by SQRT » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:54 am

AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:05 am
mak1277 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.
This. This forum does a great job of discussing low-cost investing, living below your means, etc., but I don't think enough time is dedicated to the top line of the personal P&L. Given the right capabilities and set of circumstances, plus good health and a dash of good luck, it's substantially easier to reach financial independence by making a ton of money and saving a lot of it.
Couldn’t agree more. Sometimes it sounds around here that making a lot (say into 7 figures per annum) of money is selling your soul to the devil. Doesn’t always mean this. Didn’t for me. Having an order of magnitude more money sure increases your choices and timing for retirement though. Although, luck will usually play a big role in these very high paying jobs for sure.

User avatar
sunny_socal
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by sunny_socal » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:23 pm

We all seem to assume that we're going to live happily until a certain age and thus we compute how much we'll need between retirement and that age (75, 80, 85, whatever.) Life can be a lot shorter than that, I'm supposed to go to a funeral this weekend for someone who died at 45 from cancer. My wife is visiting a friend who has cancer, she's 48. A high school classmate died around age 30 from cancer.

Since life is uncertain I'll take any opportunities provided to me but I certainly won't seek to climb that ladder. I might be wasting my time. Better to make the most of each day and make sure you leave enough time to spend with others along the way. I quit a very high-paying stressful job for this reason.

BigMoneyNoWhammies
Posts: 220
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by BigMoneyNoWhammies » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:23 pm

bigtex wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:46 am
Whats the point of climbing the corporate ladder if I'm fine with my current salary and position and can hit all my financial goals without future promotions raises etc? I am at a point where boss says I can be promoted but must be willing to work more hours be available at all times of day etc. Basically my work life balance spending time with family and kids goes away but now I make more money. Why not just stay where I am if I can still hit my financial goals for retirement etc?
Depending on the level of increase in pay/benefits, how close you are to retirement, and whether moving back down to your current level eventually is a possibility; throwing the work/home life balance off for a few years may be worth it if a significant increase in pay for say 3-5 years allows you to meet your financial/retirement goals 10-12 years early.

BigMoneyNoWhammies
Posts: 220
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by BigMoneyNoWhammies » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:27 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am
international001 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:28 pm
It looks to me most of the people here is very boglehead and the work is very money oriented
You have to balance it against family, but work *may* also be a source of satisfaction by itself

If you are doing it just for money, it's logical and empirically asserted that after some point you'll prefer to work less
You have to find your optimal spot. It's kind of the efficient frontier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_ ... _of_labour
+1.

Do people really only work for the money? Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.

This week I built a sales pipeline model for one of our business units that had no visibility into its performance beyond how they were trending compared to past periods. Using live Salesforce data, my model was able to diagnose exactly how they were doing at each stage of the sales cycle (e.g. generating marketing leads, qualifying leads into sales opportunities, closing those opportunities, realizing revenue from those booked deals, realizing revenue from existing deals), and produced a forecast of what the BU could expect for the rest of the year if they kept up the pace. After the numbers were crunched, it turned out that the conventional wisdom on why the BU was underperforming was wrong, that the issue was actually at a different stage in the sales pipeline.

The results went in front of our Chief Product Officer today, and the insights were warmly received. Decisions were made, resources realigned, and now everyone is confident we’ve identified the root cause and are properly addressing it.

Just another week’s work.
I think there's a not insignificant difference between totally loathing your work and the day to day low-mid lvl irritations most of us face at our jobs. I work to live, not the other way around. YMMV, but for me I'd happily tolerate a job I loathe for a dramatic increase (say 3-4x current) in pay for a few years that allows me to reach my financial goals far ahead of when I otherwise could, before going back to more enjoyable employment. Just like anything else, it's a trade off calculation that works out differently for everyone. I'd also imagine this calculation is very different once you have spouse/children/care of elderly parents entering the picture and relying on that income. Your personal enjoyment at the job matters less if you can better provide for them via that job you loathe.

mak1277
Posts: 1209
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Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by mak1277 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:52 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am
Do people really only work for the money? Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.
I would say that my most satisfying day of work ever is still not as enjoyable as my most mundane weekend day where I accomplish nothing.

HEDGEFUNDIE
Posts: 3973
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:06 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:54 pm

surfstar wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am
international001 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:28 pm
It looks to me most of the people here is very boglehead and the work is very money oriented
You have to balance it against family, but work *may* also be a source of satisfaction by itself

If you are doing it just for money, it's logical and empirically asserted that after some point you'll prefer to work less
You have to find your optimal spot. It's kind of the efficient frontier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_ ... _of_labour
+1.

Do people really only work for the money?
Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.

This week I built a sales pipeline model for one of our business units that had no visibility into its performance beyond how they were trending compared to past periods. Using live Salesforce data, my model was able to diagnose exactly how they were doing at each stage of the sales cycle (e.g. generating marketing leads, qualifying leads into sales opportunities, closing those opportunities, realizing revenue from those booked deals, realizing revenue from existing deals), and produced a forecast of what the BU could expect for the rest of the year if they kept up the pace. After the numbers were crunched, it turned out that the conventional wisdom on why the BU was underperforming was wrong, that the issue was actually at a different stage in the sales pipeline.

The results went in front of our Chief Product Officer today, and the insights were warmly received. Decisions were made, resources realigned, and now everyone is confident we’ve identified the root cause and are properly addressing it.

Just another week’s work.
Yes, people do.
As soon as I no longer need the money from working, I will no longer be working. I don't "owe" anything to society and don't receive any satisfaction from working. I have much better things to do with my life than work. Unfortunately those things require time and money, which requires work.
There's a whole world out there to explore - I know what my work desk looks like, why spend a second more of time here than is necessary?
There are types of satisfaction that you cannot achieve on your own by pursuing individual ends. I would argue that the kind of "happiness" you get from individual pursuits tends to be ephemeral, and needs to be constantly refreshed.

On the other hand, achieving a difficult, common objective with a group of like-minded people can provide you with a level of satisfaction that is more durable. String enough of these in a row, and you end up building true self-confidence and deeper human relationships as well.

No, you don't owe anything to society. But you probably do owe it to yourself to pursue some higher ends.

EddyB
Posts: 1137
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by EddyB » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:40 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:54 pm
surfstar wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am
international001 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:28 pm
It looks to me most of the people here is very boglehead and the work is very money oriented
You have to balance it against family, but work *may* also be a source of satisfaction by itself

If you are doing it just for money, it's logical and empirically asserted that after some point you'll prefer to work less
You have to find your optimal spot. It's kind of the efficient frontier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_ ... _of_labour
+1.

Do people really only work for the money?
Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.

This week I built a sales pipeline model for one of our business units that had no visibility into its performance beyond how they were trending compared to past periods. Using live Salesforce data, my model was able to diagnose exactly how they were doing at each stage of the sales cycle (e.g. generating marketing leads, qualifying leads into sales opportunities, closing those opportunities, realizing revenue from those booked deals, realizing revenue from existing deals), and produced a forecast of what the BU could expect for the rest of the year if they kept up the pace. After the numbers were crunched, it turned out that the conventional wisdom on why the BU was underperforming was wrong, that the issue was actually at a different stage in the sales pipeline.

The results went in front of our Chief Product Officer today, and the insights were warmly received. Decisions were made, resources realigned, and now everyone is confident we’ve identified the root cause and are properly addressing it.

Just another week’s work.
Yes, people do.
As soon as I no longer need the money from working, I will no longer be working. I don't "owe" anything to society and don't receive any satisfaction from working. I have much better things to do with my life than work. Unfortunately those things require time and money, which requires work.
There's a whole world out there to explore - I know what my work desk looks like, why spend a second more of time here than is necessary?
There are types of satisfaction that you cannot achieve on your own by pursuing individual ends. I would argue that the kind of "happiness" you get from individual pursuits tends to be ephemeral, and needs to be constantly refreshed.

On the other hand, achieving a difficult, common objective with a group of like-minded people can provide you with a level of satisfaction that is more durable. String enough of these in a row, and you end up building true self-confidence and deeper human relationships as well.

No, you don't owe anything to society. But you probably do owe it to yourself to pursue some higher ends.
If the objective is something that I see as truly good, I would agree. If the objective is to make more money for company X, then while there may be a "different type" of satisfaction in it, the magnitude makes it an insignificant satisfaction (to me).

surfstar
Posts: 1888
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:17 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by surfstar » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:05 pm

EddyB wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:40 pm
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:54 pm
surfstar wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:11 am
international001 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:28 pm
It looks to me most of the people here is very boglehead and the work is very money oriented
You have to balance it against family, but work *may* also be a source of satisfaction by itself

If you are doing it just for money, it's logical and empirically asserted that after some point you'll prefer to work less
You have to find your optimal spot. It's kind of the efficient frontier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_ ... _of_labour
+1.

Do people really only work for the money?
Even in corporate jobs there is still the satisfaction of a job well done.

This week I built a sales pipeline model for one of our business units that had no visibility into its performance beyond how they were trending compared to past periods. Using live Salesforce data, my model was able to diagnose exactly how they were doing at each stage of the sales cycle (e.g. generating marketing leads, qualifying leads into sales opportunities, closing those opportunities, realizing revenue from those booked deals, realizing revenue from existing deals), and produced a forecast of what the BU could expect for the rest of the year if they kept up the pace. After the numbers were crunched, it turned out that the conventional wisdom on why the BU was underperforming was wrong, that the issue was actually at a different stage in the sales pipeline.

The results went in front of our Chief Product Officer today, and the insights were warmly received. Decisions were made, resources realigned, and now everyone is confident we’ve identified the root cause and are properly addressing it.

Just another week’s work.
Yes, people do.
As soon as I no longer need the money from working, I will no longer be working. I don't "owe" anything to society and don't receive any satisfaction from working. I have much better things to do with my life than work. Unfortunately those things require time and money, which requires work.
There's a whole world out there to explore - I know what my work desk looks like, why spend a second more of time here than is necessary?
There are types of satisfaction that you cannot achieve on your own by pursuing individual ends. I would argue that the kind of "happiness" you get from individual pursuits tends to be ephemeral, and needs to be constantly refreshed.

On the other hand, achieving a difficult, common objective with a group of like-minded people can provide you with a level of satisfaction that is more durable. String enough of these in a row, and you end up building true self-confidence and deeper human relationships as well.

No, you don't owe anything to society. But you probably do owe it to yourself to pursue some higher ends.
If the objective is something that I see as truly good, I would agree. If the objective is to make more money for company X, then while there may be a "different type" of satisfaction in it, the magnitude makes it an insignificant satisfaction (to me).
Yep.

"deeper human relationships" and "higher ends" came about from presenting sales data/trends in a new way? To make a company/stockholders more money - not satisfying to a deep level for me. If you work towards curing cancer... yes, that is better -- but again, is it for the cure, or to make Big Phara more money, though?

...but, I guess there was a reason that my first car had the license plate frame "Only a surfer knows the feeling"

I sure didn't prefer work then, and sure don't now.
I've expanded from surfing though - rock climbing, backpacking, camping, diving, hiking, travel in general..., and on - all much better things to do with my time than work. Builds deep human relationships as well and true "happiness". The only thing ephemeral about those pursuits - they currently only last as long as a weekend or vacation. FIRE will solve that, though :) unfortunately that brings us back to money; therefore working. :oops:

TallBoy29er
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:06 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by TallBoy29er » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:40 pm

surfstar wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am

There's a whole world out there to explore - I know what my work desk looks like, why spend a second more of time here than is necessary?
I enjoyed the way you framed this.

I'll be on a surf trip to Fiji soon. Let's not joke, I'm no surfstar. But I love the water and waves. Here's to exploring the world. :sharebeer

Bacchus01
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:04 pm

AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 200,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.
You absolutely did project. You stated something about me as fact based on your experience. My experience is not the same.

Practice? We talking about practice? You shouldn't even BE at practice unless you are the coach (and I've coached many youth teams).

My kids play up to 200+ games of soccer a year. In a given year I've missed maybe 5. That includes games in many, many states as well as international matches in Europe. If you want to be internet strict, fine, I've missed a few.

Cycle
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 7:57 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Cycle » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:51 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:52 am
mak1277 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am
Cycle wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am
investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.

I started working at 14. I graduated college in 1997 and have worked up the ladder since day 1. I pulled my cumulative SS earnings at the end of last year and was about $4.5M. I’d say all in gross closer to $5M. I’m at a point now that I’ll make that same amount in the next three years. 31 years of working will likely be done in just the next 3.

Salary compounding >>>> investment compounding
obviously, a frugal person with a massive salary will beat a frugal person with a pauper salary.

I was just thinking of the VPs at my megacorp. None of the R&D engineering VPs got there before 50. At that point I'll have been retired for 5 years, so i don't know what the point is of continuing to climb the ladder when financial needs have long since been met AND little kids are at home

If I were a director, sure I'd probably hit my Number by 40 instead of 45, but i only work 40hrs a week and rarely have to travel. When i do have to travel i can often just take an extra week off and fly my family out to make a holiday of the trip. Also, i'm really not management material, though my wife will likely be director in a few years.

I have worked with plenty of engineers from startups who hit my number in their early 20s. Now that beats climbing the corporate ladder. Problem is not every startup has a big payday, in fact most don't.
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way

surfstar
Posts: 1888
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:17 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by surfstar » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:57 pm

TallBoy29er wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:40 pm
surfstar wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:22 am

There's a whole world out there to explore - I know what my work desk looks like, why spend a second more of time here than is necessary?
I enjoyed the way you framed this.

I'll be on a surf trip to Fiji soon. Let's not joke, I'm no surfstar. But I love the water and waves. Here's to exploring the world. :sharebeer
:sharebeer

Our current license plate frame "Let's go exploring"

Image

AZAttorney11
Posts: 618
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:12 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by AZAttorney11 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:15 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:04 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:17 pm
I run a $1B+ business. I work and travel some insane hours. I commute 1 hour each way to work. I have been out of the country 4 of the last 6 weeks. I have calls with China at 6AM the morning.

I never miss my kids events. I take all of my vacation or close to it. I make it a point to let everyone known leaving the office to get to my kids’ play, soccer game, band concert, whatever.

Balance is about culture and it’s set by the leaders. I lead by example. I leave early on Fridays. I come in late because it was donuts with dad at school. I make sure people know that. And when it comes time to put in the extra, travel like crazy, or whatever, I do that too. You can do both. It’s hard. If you are not in environment where you can...find one.
Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 200,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.
You absolutely did project. You stated something about me as fact based on your experience. My experience is not the same.

Practice? We talking about practice? You shouldn't even BE at practice unless you are the coach (and I've coached many youth teams).

My kids play up to 200+ games of soccer a year. In a given year I've missed maybe 5. That includes games in many, many states as well as international matches in Europe. If you want to be internet strict, fine, I've missed a few.
I applaud the Allen Iverson reference.

Again, I didn't project anything. You stated you were out of the country four of the last six weeks. I didn't assume it, or imply it -- you said it. It's impossible to make all of your kids's events when you're gone like that. It's a fact.

Sorry you got triggered over this.

Bacchus01
Posts: 3182
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Bacchus01 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:03 am

AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:15 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:04 pm
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:24 am
AZAttorney11 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:02 am


Like you, I travel a lot for work. But, the bolded section is not true for either of us. We miss practices, concerts during the week when we are gone, etc. You may not miss events when you are home and you, correctly, prioritize family when you're in town, but it's not true that you never miss an event.
You don’t know that. Don’t project your experience on me. I don’t consider a practice an event. Why would I go to practice? I’ve never missed a kids concert. I’ve never missed a school event. I have missed a few games, but very few because the vast vast majority are played on weekends. I’ve moved international trips to make a kids event.
I'm not projecting anything. If you don't consider practice an event, sure, you're not missing anything. Or missing a few games... is that an event or not?

I'm not trying to be rude, but high earning executives make tons of sacrifices. Missing time with family is one of them. There's no way around it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, or good or bad, it just is. At our firm, the partners travel between 200,000 to 400,000 miles a year. We all miss things.
You absolutely did project. You stated something about me as fact based on your experience. My experience is not the same.

Practice? We talking about practice? You shouldn't even BE at practice unless you are the coach (and I've coached many youth teams).

My kids play up to 200+ games of soccer a year. In a given year I've missed maybe 5. That includes games in many, many states as well as international matches in Europe. If you want to be internet strict, fine, I've missed a few.
I applaud the Allen Iverson reference.

Again, I didn't project anything. You stated you were out of the country four of the last six weeks. I didn't assume it, or imply it -- you said it. It's impossible to make all of your kids's events when you're gone like that. It's a fact.

Sorry you got triggered over this.
It’s not impossible and it’s not a fact. I scheduled all of those around the events. They didn’t have any events during that time. You keep saying things about my life like you know what you are talking about. Stop it. It’s not fact. I’m only triggered because you keep doing it.

mak1277
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by mak1277 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:17 am

Cycle wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:51 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:52 am
mak1277 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 am
Cycle wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:51 am
investingdad wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:31 am
I did smile inwardly and wonder if the VP dude would have been surprised to know the lower level individual contributor engineer on the jet with him had a... comfy... portfolio.
It would be curious how many VPs making 1MM per year have a net worth higher than the frugal IC engineer (adjusted for age). My wife and I each make 140k per year as ICs at megacorps. At 35 we're already at 1.5MM.

I think there's a misconception that one needs to be part of a start-up acquisition or a c-suite exec to become a deca-millionaire.

We don't need any more raises to become deca-millionaires, we just need to not pull the plug... though we plan to. It's all about compounding interest (or gains), which is why I always advise our undergrad interns to just start working and have an employer pay for their grad school part-time.
I think you're underestimating how much better "making a huge salary" is compared to just compounding. Yes, compounding is wonderful, but it's not as wonderful as making massive annual salaries. Sure, if your calculation is based on savings percentage, or NW as a multiple of salary, you're probably going to be winning, but not if you're just comparing raw NW. (obviously my comments exclude any VPs who have massive leaks like drug habits, gambling, etc.). Anyone with a modicum of self-control who makes a million a year is going to be way ahead.

I started working at 14. I graduated college in 1997 and have worked up the ladder since day 1. I pulled my cumulative SS earnings at the end of last year and was about $4.5M. I’d say all in gross closer to $5M. I’m at a point now that I’ll make that same amount in the next three years. 31 years of working will likely be done in just the next 3.

Salary compounding >>>> investment compounding
obviously, a frugal person with a massive salary will beat a frugal person with a pauper salary.
My point actually was that if you have a massive salary you don't need to be frugal. Someone who makes a million and spends $300k a year is still blowing the doors off someone who makes $150 and spends $30k.

SQRT
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:44 am

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by SQRT » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:29 am

@Mak1277. Obviously true and reflects my experience. Was never very frugal but was still able to save a lot of my very high comp. Ended up retiring at 56 with multiple deca’s.

Sometimes (not always) a little extra effort pays off. Assessing the likely/possible payoff versus the costs of extra effort seems like the first step. This analysis will be influenced by your personality. Some people just need to “go for it”. Others not. No right answers on this one.

One thing I have noticed here though is describing “extra effort” as 60-80 (or more) hours a week, being away from home often, missing all sorts of family commitments, extra BS,etc. In short a “working hell”. Heck, if you really think that’s what you have to do to “climb the ladder” I wouldn’t blame anyone for not doing it. However, my experience was very different. I wonder if once you have decided to not “climb the ladder” you rationalize the decision a bit?
Last edited by SQRT on Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

JTColton
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by JTColton » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:36 am

BigMoneyNoWhammies wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:27 pm

I think there's a not insignificant difference between totally loathing your work and the day to day low-mid lvl irritations most of us face at our jobs. I work to live, not the other way around. YMMV, but for me I'd happily tolerate a job I loathe for a dramatic increase (say 3-4x current) in pay for a few years that allows me to reach my financial goals far ahead of when I otherwise could, before going back to more enjoyable employment. Just like anything else, it's a trade off calculation that works out differently for everyone. I'd also imagine this calculation is very different once you have spouse/children/care of elderly parents entering the picture and relying on that income. Your personal enjoyment at the job matters less if you can better provide for them via that job you loathe.
Money isn't the only thing you provide to your family, once basic needs are met time is much more valuable. If you work a job you loathe you aren't going to come home after a 12 hour day plus 2 hours in traffic on cloud 9 and happy as a clam. Youre going to be miserable and youre going to make them miserable too, if you even get to spend much time with them.

Cycle
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 7:57 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Whats the Point of Climbing the Corporate Ladder?

Post by Cycle » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:36 am

mak1277 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:17 am
My point actually was that if you have a massive salary you don't need to be frugal. Someone who makes a million and spends $300k a year is still blowing the doors off someone who makes $150 and spends $30k.
Hand in hand with frugality and minimalism are simplicity and freedom. This is why so many uber wealthy people are frugal. I'm thinking of Buffet. A local fortune 500 ceo who drives a camry and lives in a 300k house. My co-workers nudist landlord in Sante Fe who owned hundreds of houses but had only a handful of possessions.

No one on their deathbed says, I wish I would have spent more money. No one says, I wish I would have made Sr. VP. David Rubenstein, age 69, said on Freakonomics podcast, "I would give away all the money I have today, every penny, if I could be five years younger."

Defining enough is tough. One needs to work for fulfillment, but the 60-80hrs a week some of these VPs and execs work would exceed my definition of enough by about 40hrs, though YMMV.
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way

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