Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by RickBoglehead »

Interesting. So you paid the $165 and took it on a whim?
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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When I first entered the investment advisory world, I had to take three tests. (To note—until this point, I was a grenade-catcher in the Marine Corps. I knew absolutely nothing about personal finance. Didn’t know the difference between a stock and a bond and a mutual fund.)

Series 7 - hardest Of the lot. Studied for about three weeks.

Series 66 (which is a combination of the 63 and 65) took about a week.

Life & health - studied for two days.

Yep, that’s it. Studying three hours a day for one month, and now I’m qualified to not only give advice, but to sell all the associated products to go with it!!!
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by CyclingDuo »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:16 am Last Wednesday, on a whim, I decided to go take the Series 65 exam. Took it Saturday morning, and passed.

No studying. No industry experience. No practice tests.

If you're not familiar, the Series 65 is the securities exam that serves as the most basic qualification to offer paid financial planning in every state. Now that I've passed this one test, I can register with the state or SEC and become a Registered Investment Adviser. :oops:

My only real qualification to be a financial planner is that I've been reading Bogleheads almost every day for a year.

I now understand why folks like Michael Kitces rant and rave a little bit about the lack of qualification criteria to enter the financial planning profession. I've always considered the most basic criteria for entering my own profession to be fairly simple, but at least "adequate" in terms of assessing competency.

After taking the Series 65, I feel very confident in asserting that anybody that only passes this one test is NOT competent to offer financial advice.

Some points of conversation:

1). There are other threads on BH about how to become an RIA, but I have not found any threads showcasing personal experience from BH members that became inspired to do so. Are there any such stories? If so, I'd love to hear them. Were you so inspired by the Bogle way that you felt compelled to either start a side hustle, make a career switch, or embark on a post-retirement second career in financial planning?

2). Is there anything that the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy is doing/can do to influence the financial planning profession, in terms of competency?
You could have some fun by opening up shop next door to a Edward Jones storefront and have at it! :beer
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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Deleting my messages on this forum
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by Seasonal »

A large number of certifications require little useful knowledge or experience to pass. Once certified, it's very hard to lose the certifications. Typically, at most, there are continuing education requirements, which don't actually require anything beyond attendance (perhaps online).

Reading a year of this forum is likely better preparation for financial planning than a whole lot of alternatives.

Figuring out who is good at their chosen occupation is difficult. Clients often rate people based on personality more than competence, as it's hard to judge competence. It's easier to notice if, for example, a lawyer returns calls quickly than if she has given good advice on some technical aspect of the law. Compare the number of doctors who lose major malpractice cases to those who lose their licenses, with many of those able to get licensed in another state.
Or see https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ry/586039/ (well worth reading).
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:16 am
2). Is there anything that the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy is doing/can do to influence the financial planning profession, in terms of competency?
If the Center wishes to maintain 501(c)(3) status, it would have to take care in its approach to this issue, particularly engaging in any lobbying activities.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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Greenman72 wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:24 am When I first entered the investment advisory world, I had to take three tests. (To note—until this point, I was a grenade-catcher in the Marine Corps. I knew absolutely nothing about personal finance. Didn’t know the difference between a stock and a bond and a mutual fund.)

Series 7 - hardest Of the lot. Studied for about three weeks.

Series 66 (which is a combination of the 63 and 65) took about a week.

Life & health - studied for two days.

Yep, that’s it. Studying three hours a day for one month, and now I’m qualified to not only give advice, but to sell all the associated products to go with it!!!
I expect that your education from reading the Bogleheads site is deeper and more relevant than the study materials for these exams.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by J295 »

So you pass a test and that lowers your opinion of an entire group that takes the same test?
I typically let these biased judgmental posts pass, but not today.
Certainly yours is one of many posts that pop up with unchallenged judgments of service providers as a group.

Don't want to use a planner -- fine.
Don't think they bring value to you -- fine.
Want to share a personal experience with a poor planner -- ok
Want to bash an entire group of people -- not acceptable.

I began investing in the late 1970s and don't use a planner. On a cost/benefit basis they don't provide value to me at this point in my life. Perhaps there will be a time when I engage one, maybe not. There are many doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial planners, engineers, etc. that I would not employ due to their "average" skill sets or being able to DIY, and some I would employ due to their "superior" skill sets.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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J295 wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:19 am So you pass a test and that lowers your opinion of an entire group that takes the same test?
I typically let these biased judgmental posts pass, but not today.
Certainly yours is one of many posts that pop up with unchallenged judgments of service providers as a group.

Don't want to use a planner -- fine.
Don't think they bring value to you -- fine.
Want to share a personal experience with a poor planner -- ok
Want to bash an entire group of people -- not acceptable.

I began investing in the late 1970s and don't use a planner. On a cost/benefit basis they don't provide value to me at this point in my life. Perhaps there will be a time when I engage one, maybe not. There are many doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial planners, engineers, etc. that I would not employ due to their "average" skill sets or being able to DIY, and some I would employ due to their "superior" skill sets.
I see a different message from the OP. My impression of what the OP saying is this: Don't be impressed with the credentials. I don't see his intention to bash an entire group of people, just in generality. For example, when we say index funds are better than active funds, we do not mean every index fund is better than every active fund at any given time.
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Deleting my messages on this forum
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Ok. Appreciate the clarification. I was impacted by “suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers.”
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:44 am
tampaite wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:30 am so what's the problem? Sorry, am not seeing the scary part. I still don't see anything that says passing the exam will make one lose money in the market or inhibit anyone the ability to not manage someone's money?
...
Being certified is different than being competent.
I guess I'm just shocked at how easy it is to enter this particular field; how easy it is for somebody to be allowed to advise people on what to do with large sums of money. No required education, and a test that doesn't even pretend to try measuring competency in any way. In my field (tax/accounting), even the most basic licensing exam is directly intended to measure competency. Even if that exam isn't perfect (it's not), it at least tries. The Series 65 exam doesn't even try to assess competency -- that's not what the test is about.

I totally agree with your second point. Certification doesn't equate to competence. As I wrote above, I'm simply surprised at the utter lack of the attempt to measure competency, as compared to every other profession I'm aware of.
You’re a CPA?

Then perhaps you should not use your experience to pass judgment on the difficulty of the test?
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I would never join a group whose standards are so low, they'd have me as a member.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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I definitely understand the point and see the problem, and it is a huge problem.

I have a friend who recently went pretty quickly from an unimpressive average income to a pretty impressive higher income.

He is not confident about how to invest, and I've been talking about everything from his 401(k) to TIRAs & Roths & TLH strategies & taxable accounts, starting with the basic definitions of these things & how they work in the short term and the long terms. I've recommended this site and its wiki to him.

The reason we've been talking about all this stuff is that he thinks the whole concept of financial planning and investing is a specialized field, & he is not qualified to make these decisions, so he has been talking to a financial planner, who has been talking about all of this stuff, and making recommendations, and offering to take care of his money, for an (im)modest fee.

And my friend is reluctant to leave this guy, because he is "certified".

My friend has no idea how to even go about finding out if this guy is competent or capable of adding any value. He is pretty convinced that this specialized field needs a specialized administrator, otherwise disaster awaits.

So, yeah, the ease with which this test can be passed, and the credentials it bestows, are alarming, because almost everyone out there is in the category my friend is in, and not in the category the typical boglehead is in.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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It's not the difficulty of the test which is the problem. It's the material the test covers. My memory is that is 90% regulatory, 10% "finance". There is a lot about the definition of a "security", rules imposed by the 1940 Investment Company Act, etc. But as you have learned, it is NOT an exam which cover personal finance, portfolio theory, retirement planning, etc, in any meaningful way. There are token questions about this, such as describing what technical analysis is vs MPT. There is some very little coverage of bonds (duration, yield, etc).

The OPs point is valid, if one HAS ASSUMED that the Series 65 was a test of personal finance competence. It's not. It's basically a minimum competency test related to regulatory and securities law.

I have an RIA and do a trivial amount of paid work (2% of household income). But almost all of my finance-related work is on behalf of a not-for-profit group which advocates for an embedded financial curriculum within medical education. I've given about 25 lectures in the past year or so to about 1000 young physicians, in groups as small as three and as big as 350. I start all of my lectures by pointing out that I have NO TRAINING whatsoever in anything I'm about to lecture about (despite the fact that I own/operate a financial planning firm) and most likely neither does any other financial professional they will encounter, and that the reason they need to do their own homework and educate themselves is so that they don't get financially abused by people like me. There is laugher, because they assume that as a physician I am "one of them" and wouldn't do that to them. And you should see the looks on their faces when I say that their laugher has just proven to me that they are easy marks for me, because it's a form of "affinity bias".

I tell them to read Bernstein's "If You Can" and then try to figure out why I'm not one of the "hardened criminals" he warns against. They can't of course. I could be a criminal (that has not yet been caught). How would they know? The post-lecture questions I get from those who work with their own advisors are quite informative. No idea of fees, no idea their advisor is competent other than he was recommended by someone, or is a "good guy" or works for a "prestigious firm" etc. I simply plug bogleheads as the best resource for financial advice and tell them to "read, learn, repeat". :D
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:45 am

Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. I'm able to do things like this because I've made business and financial decisions that put me in a position to be able to do such things.
Not sarcastic at all.

So you also make business decisions along with financial decision on a whim. Why should I entrust you with my millions?
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long_gamma wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:53 am
AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:45 am
Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. I'm able to do things like this because I've made business and financial decisions that put me in a position to be able to do such things.
Not sarcastic at all.

So you also make business decisions along with financial decision on a whim. Why should I entrust you with my millions?
I think maybe the term "whim" is being defined differently by each of you. A few years ago I signed up for a 10K run on a "whim". I'm horribly out of shape, hadn't run more than a mile in several years. I paid an entry fee, got a bib. Did not train. Nearly needed resuscitation and took an hour to finish. But I did it out of curiosity and just the desire for a new experience. I suspect it was curiosity about the Series 65 which prompted the OPs decision. Some people pay $100 for the latest video game because it's fun for them. I think I can understand why someone who otherwise has an interest in personal finance might want to take the test as a learning experience or for curiosity. The cost may not be an issue at all for some people. That is, whether free or $500 is immaterial to some folks and would not count as a "financial decision". I think that's what the OP is trying to say about "business and financial decisions", that s/he has enough personal resources that the test fee is not really a "cost" worth thinking about. But I could be wrong. Tone/intent is difficult on the internet, so I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. :beer
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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Stinky wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:31 am
Greenman72 wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:24 am When I first entered the investment advisory world, I had to take three tests. (To note—until this point, I was a grenade-catcher in the Marine Corps. I knew absolutely nothing about personal finance. Didn’t know the difference between a stock and a bond and a mutual fund.)

Series 7 - hardest Of the lot. Studied for about three weeks.

Series 66 (which is a combination of the 63 and 65) took about a week.

Life & health - studied for two days.

Yep, that’s it. Studying three hours a day for one month, and now I’m qualified to not only give advice, but to sell all the associated products to go with it!!!

I expect that your education from reading the Bogleheads site is deeper and more relevant than the study materials for these exams.
And that would include The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing book, the chapter on "Do You Really Need An Advisor?" and the section on "The Alphabet Soup of Financial Designations," which includes a warning from pro Boglehead Rick Ferri that "at brokerage firms, everyone is a Vice President. If they are not a VP, they are either very new or on their way out the door."

OP, pass a couple more exams and you're on your way to veep!
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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neurosphere wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:10 am
long_gamma wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:53 am
AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:45 am
Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. I'm able to do things like this because I've made business and financial decisions that put me in a position to be able to do such things.
Not sarcastic at all.

So you also make business decisions along with financial decision on a whim. Why should I entrust you with my millions?
I think maybe the term "whim" is being defined differently by each of you. A few years ago I signed up for a 10K run on a "whim". I'm horribly out of shape, hadn't run more than a mile in several years. I paid an entry fee, got a bib. Did not train. Nearly needed resuscitation and took an hour to finish. But I did it out of curiosity and just the desire for a new experience. I suspect it was curiosity about the Series 65 which prompted the OPs decision. Some people pay $100 for the latest video game because it's fun for them. I think I can understand why someone who otherwise has an interest in personal finance might want to take the test as a learning experience or for curiosity. The cost may not be an issue at all for some people. That is, whether free or $500 is immaterial to some folks and would not count as a "financial decision". I think that's what the OP is trying to say about "business and financial decisions", that s/he has enough personal resources that the test fee is not really a "cost" worth thinking about. But I could be wrong. Tone/intent is difficult on the internet, so I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. :beer
He also said, he made "business" decisions along with "financial decisions" on whim. I won't trust/employ people who are not making thoughtful decisions.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:42 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:56 am You’re a CPA?

Then perhaps you should not use your experience to pass judgment on the difficulty of the test?
No, I am neither CPA or attorney, and do not possess an accounting, finance, or law degree.

For what it's worth, my fall/winter "on a whim" project will be to qualify for and sit for the CPA exam, just to see if I can pass it. Two weeks ago, it was the real estate broker exam.
CPA exam? Good luck, I heard these are actually very hard, used to be simpler 20 years ago but hardened quite a bit since then.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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long_gamma wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:17 am He also said, he made "business" decisions along with "financial decisions" on whim. I won't trust/employ people who are not making thoughtful decisions.
Ok, sorry. I could not find that in his comments. Maybe I missed it. Or that I misunderstood. I assume he meant that because of overall prudent business and financial decisions, he has the luxury to make other decisions (which involved time and money) that are whimsical in nature with direct financial benefit to him for doing so. But maybe I "resemble that remark". I attended medical school, never intending to practice medicine. I thought it would be fun and I'd learn a lot. So I'm not one to speak on thoughtful decisions! :D
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

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AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:42 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:56 am You’re a CPA?

Then perhaps you should not use your experience to pass judgment on the difficulty of the test?
No, I am neither CPA or attorney, and do not possess an accounting, finance, or law degree.

For what it's worth, my fall/winter "on a whim" project will be to qualify for and sit for the CPA exam, just to see if I can pass it. Two weeks ago, it was the real estate broker exam.
You are quickly becoming my hero.

When I was 10 years old, my neighbor and I had a "discussion" she said, "I want to be a flight attendant when I grow up", I said "I am going to know EVERYTHING". So far she has gotten a lot closer, she became a Travel Agent.

Well, if I follow your inspiration, I might find find myself a bit closer to knowing if it is possible to reach my life goal :sharebeer
smitcat
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by smitcat »

long_gamma wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:17 am
neurosphere wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:10 am
long_gamma wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:53 am
AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:45 am
Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. I'm able to do things like this because I've made business and financial decisions that put me in a position to be able to do such things.
Not sarcastic at all.

So you also make business decisions along with financial decision on a whim. Why should I entrust you with my millions?
I think maybe the term "whim" is being defined differently by each of you. A few years ago I signed up for a 10K run on a "whim". I'm horribly out of shape, hadn't run more than a mile in several years. I paid an entry fee, got a bib. Did not train. Nearly needed resuscitation and took an hour to finish. But I did it out of curiosity and just the desire for a new experience. I suspect it was curiosity about the Series 65 which prompted the OPs decision. Some people pay $100 for the latest video game because it's fun for them. I think I can understand why someone who otherwise has an interest in personal finance might want to take the test as a learning experience or for curiosity. The cost may not be an issue at all for some people. That is, whether free or $500 is immaterial to some folks and would not count as a "financial decision". I think that's what the OP is trying to say about "business and financial decisions", that s/he has enough personal resources that the test fee is not really a "cost" worth thinking about. But I could be wrong. Tone/intent is difficult on the internet, so I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. :beer
He also said, he made "business" decisions along with "financial decisions" on whim. I won't trust/employ people who are not making thoughtful decisions.
"He also said, he made "business" decisions along with "financial decisions" on whim. I won't trust/employ people who are not making thoughtful decisions."
Your misquoting - perhaps read these more thoughtfully.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by TropikThunder »

OP seems to have hit a nerve with some of the commenters, not sure why unless they themselves are RIA’s and feel attacked? All he’s saying (if I may be so bold) is that the RIA certification process does nothing to assess an advisor’s competence to give investment advice (which is what one would go to an RIA for in the first place). Of course some are good and some are bad. But how are we non-experts supposed to be able to tell the difference until after 20 years of mis-management and fleecing when it’s too late to fix?
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neurosphere
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by neurosphere »

And now, let's all go back to discussing the Series 65 and the skills/credentials of financial advisors. The OPs motivation for taking the test is becoming a little off-topic and is bordering on a personal attack based on what seems to be a misunderstanding. Criticism/comment about whether he is painting advisors with too broad a brush is probably ok though?

[edit to add I posted this prior to seeing Tropikthunder's post]
If you have to ask "Is a Target Date fund right for me?", the answer is "Yes" (even in taxable accounts).
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Abe
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by Abe »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:42 am For what it's worth, my fall/winter "on a whim" project will be to qualify for and sit for the CPA exam, just to see if I can pass it. Two weeks ago, it was the real estate broker exam.
Someone may have already asked this, but I'm curious to know how you did on the real estate broker exam.
Slow and steady wins the race.
long_gamma
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by long_gamma »

TropikThunder wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:20 pm OP seems to have hit a nerve with some of the commenters, not sure why unless they themselves are RIA’s and feel attacked?
If you are referencing that to me, No I am not an RIA. I have taken those exams along with Series 7 and CFA, after my MBA. CFA is much more respectable certificate, even that does not deal much more with personal investment side. Probably CFP is much more tuned with personal investment side.
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." --Mike Tyson
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AerialWombat
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by AerialWombat »

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Last edited by AerialWombat on Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
Greenman72
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by Greenman72 »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:42 am
HEDGEFUNDIE wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:56 am You’re a CPA?

Then perhaps you should not use your experience to pass judgment on the difficulty of the test?
No, I am neither CPA or attorney, and do not possess an accounting, finance, or law degree.

For what it's worth, my fall/winter "on a whim" project will be to qualify for and sit for the CPA exam, just to see if I can pass it. Two weeks ago, it was the real estate broker exam.
I am a CPA, CFA, PFS, MBA, BS. BBA, and hold two insurance licenses (life & health and property & casualty). Formerly, I was a CRPC and a CGMA. I also have taken (and passed) the Series 7 twice, the 65 once, and the 63 twice. (I took the 7, 63, and 65 many years ago and let them lapse. Then I took the 7 and 63 again a few years ago.) Therefore, I WILL use my experience to pass judgment on the difficulty of the test.

It's not a difficult test. Like I said, I didn't know nothing 'bout nothing, and I was able to take and pass the 65 with just a few days of study.

And I disagree with whoever said it was 90% regulation and 10% financial principles. It's more like 99% regulation. There is not one single practical issue in the Series 65. The only people who should find it useful are those who need to know the regulations in opening up an RIA.
Last edited by Greenman72 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AerialWombat
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by AerialWombat »

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This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
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Dialectical Investor
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by Dialectical Investor »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:52 pm
If I wanted to open an RIA, now that I've passed the Series 65, I could do so and offer services literally for $0, and not care about the overhead.

Is this, perhaps, my next phase in life? Spreading the indexing gospel, with the means/ability of an aggressive marketing campaign behind it???

I'm no Rick Ferri, obviously. But I could join that good fight, if I chose. Is this my not-for-profit mission going forward?
If you do this, you should charge a reasonable fee, perhaps even higher than what you think is reasonable, otherwise very few people will take you seriously. They will assume the advice is worth what they pay. You might have seen Rick's thread recently where he shared his hourly fee. It might be possible to setup a private foundation that was very visible, so you could point to it as the funding source. Even then, I have my doubts.
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by inbox788 »

AerialWombat wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:06 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:20 am Interesting. So you paid the $165 and took it on a whim?
$175, but yes. I have that kind of time on my hands. :)
That's a drop in the bucket compared to 1%+ AUM fees that BH save!

Plus you're not wasting all that time talking with the Sales Advisors.
Last edited by inbox788 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Greenman72
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Re: Suddenly, even lower opinion of financial planners/money managers

Post by Greenman72 »

^ A few thoughts:

1. If you want to give financial advice for free, then there's no reason to register. You only need to register if you want to get paid.

2. You are correct in your assessment that there are very few barriers to entry to be a "financial advisor". Like I tell all my customers, "Doctor, lawyer, accountant, financial advisor. Which one doesn't belong?" It's sad that there is no education or experience requirement, because consumers have no idea whether their advisor is remotely comptetent. (FYI - I'm an advisor and I am hyper-critical of the industry.)

3. Telling people what to do and getting them to agree with your assessment means nothing. I have literally looked right at people and told them what to do, and even showed them how much they had to gain by doing it. It wasn't until I literally did it for them that they ever got around to it.
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