Losing a job in your 50's...

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
Barkingsparrow
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:09 pm

jmw wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:28 pm
When I was in my 20s in IT, I thought nearly all of the folks in their 50s were dinosaurs that needed to be eliminated. They could not or would not learn anything new. They wanted to do things the old way. Now that I'm nearing the 50s, I can freely admit I'm a dinosaur too that is not motivated to learn new things anymore. I don't have any mental decline. I even have a degree in CS and math. I just don't care anymore. I can fake it to make it for now. The kids in their 20s and 30s that graduated with CS are a lot smarter than the 20-somethings I worked with decades ago. My best skills are in areas that the market doesn't find that valuable anymore.

The dinosaurs in the 90s did not realize they were worthless. At least I can admit I'm an old T-rex and see what's coming. That being said, I won't resign or quit unless offered a package.
In my mid 50's I made a career change into Cloud technology which has served me well. My previous background, and still a desirable skill, made the transition relatively smooth. The "dinosaurs" that were laid off recently were all mainframe/legacy software types who were slow or unable to adapt to newer technology. That said, I'm tired and hoping I get pushed out with a package sooner than later.

User avatar
Will do good
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:23 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Will do good » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:14 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
Not just IT, imagine how fast they remove older people in the creative field, music, arts, fashion, advertising, film etc.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:29 pm

Will do good wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:14 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
Not just IT, imagine how fast they remove older people in the creative field, music, arts, fashion, advertising, film etc.
I never said age discrimination was limited to IT.

However, there are many industries where a large percentage of workers are over age 50. According to this Forbes article, these include airlines, utilities, insurance, retail, chemical, aerospace and defense, and others. I also know from experience that higher ed and medicine include many over 50.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

jmw
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:01 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jmw » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:14 pm

Barkingsparrow wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:09 pm
jmw wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:28 pm
When I was in my 20s in IT, I thought nearly all of the folks in their 50s were dinosaurs that needed to be eliminated. They could not or would not learn anything new. They wanted to do things the old way. Now that I'm nearing the 50s, I can freely admit I'm a dinosaur too that is not motivated to learn new things anymore. I don't have any mental decline. I even have a degree in CS and math. I just don't care anymore. I can fake it to make it for now. The kids in their 20s and 30s that graduated with CS are a lot smarter than the 20-somethings I worked with decades ago. My best skills are in areas that the market doesn't find that valuable anymore.

The dinosaurs in the 90s did not realize they were worthless. At least I can admit I'm an old T-rex and see what's coming. That being said, I won't resign or quit unless offered a package.
In my mid 50's I made a career change into Cloud technology which has served me well. My previous background, and still a desirable skill, made the transition relatively smooth. The "dinosaurs" that were laid off recently were all mainframe/legacy software types who were slow or unable to adapt to newer technology. That said, I'm tired and hoping I get pushed out with a package sooner than later.
I know two co-workers in their mid 50s in new solution architect positions who burned out and decided to retire in their first year as SA. Almost feel like it's better to try to lay low in easy legacy work and try to push the retirement date rather than burn out and retire early. Most of the solution architects are very stressed. In other words, there is a lot of value to coasting especially as I get close to retirement date.

palanzo
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:28 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by palanzo » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:57 pm

Will do good wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:14 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
Not just IT, imagine how fast they remove older people in the creative field, music, arts, fashion, advertising, film etc.
Yes, look at James Cameron who is 65. Lots of other examples.

X528
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:51 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by X528 » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:08 pm

jmw wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:14 pm
Barkingsparrow wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:09 pm
jmw wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:28 pm
When I was in my 20s in IT, I thought nearly all of the folks in their 50s were dinosaurs that needed to be eliminated. They could not or would not learn anything new. They wanted to do things the old way. Now that I'm nearing the 50s, I can freely admit I'm a dinosaur too that is not motivated to learn new things anymore. I don't have any mental decline. I even have a degree in CS and math. I just don't care anymore. I can fake it to make it for now. The kids in their 20s and 30s that graduated with CS are a lot smarter than the 20-somethings I worked with decades ago. My best skills are in areas that the market doesn't find that valuable anymore.

The dinosaurs in the 90s did not realize they were worthless. At least I can admit I'm an old T-rex and see what's coming. That being said, I won't resign or quit unless offered a package.
In my mid 50's I made a career change into Cloud technology which has served me well. My previous background, and still a desirable skill, made the transition relatively smooth. The "dinosaurs" that were laid off recently were all mainframe/legacy software types who were slow or unable to adapt to newer technology. That said, I'm tired and hoping I get pushed out with a package sooner than later.
I know two co-workers in their mid 50s in new solution architect positions who burned out and decided to retire in their first year as SA. Almost feel like it's better to try to lay low in easy legacy work and try to push the retirement date rather than burn out and retire early. Most of the solution architects are very stressed. In other words, there is a lot of value to coasting especially as I get close to retirement date.
What about transitioning from an IT technical/engineering position to a sales position, such as a Cisco cybersecurity sales specialist, which I've been told is lucrative? Work this position for a few years while maximizing savings and investment before retirement or before being forced out.

tnr
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:36 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by tnr » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:21 pm

There is little data on how prevalent age discrimination isn the private workplace actually is. It is is a function of the type of work you do. We BH might overestimate the likelihood of age discrimination hit us, but as another poster has mentioned, there is little harm in planning for the possibility. Financial responsibility early in your career is obvious. I tell my younger colleagues that besides staying current in your field, I think diversification of career experiences is extremely helpful. Work in different areas, different companies. Try different roles: management, technical, salesmanship. If the plug gets pulled on you in your early 50's and you want to keep working, the diversification will greatly help in finding something else quickly.

CycloRista
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:53 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CycloRista » Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:39 pm

beyou wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:47 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Keep in mind, the SCOTUS has ruled on this before. The laws against age discrimination cut a very narrow swath.

I’ve never personally seen any cases of age discrimination in my career in IT. I.e. never anybody fired or pushed out for being old.

I have seen lots of cases though of older workers getting pushed out because they couldn’t pull their weight anymore. That’s a combination of decades long wage growth combined with stale/diminishing skill sets, desire to coast, etc. age discrimation laws don’t protect you from this.

I’ve seen this so much, for so long, that I personally planned everything out so that I wouldn’t need to be employed past the age of fifty. The salary is great, but don’t count on it lasting until you are 70.
Well I have been in IT for 3 decades and managed many people. People of all ages can coast. You see people with 10 years working but 2 years experience equivalent, repeating same tasks with same skills over and over. You can find people in 50s learning latest tech. The real issue here is salary and health. Few people in 50s have the same health they once had, and few are paid like someone in their 20s. That said, frankly in my 50s with all my experience, I can accomplish things more quickly and get to better end result. Yes a younger person may work more hours but not get more done, not comparing people who apply themselves throughout their career.

You need to be ruthless about making money and saving it when you if you live in the US or anyplace with similar economic models. You need to be ready for
the fact that our govt provides retirement safety nets at 65 but allows your employer to get rid of you at 55. Expect to spend alot from 55 to 65.
I'm also in IT for 3+ decades (and in the best physical shape of my entire life).

I'll add that you need to be militant about managing your monthly burn rate. It doesn't take much to deviate and once you do, it is hard to reel it back in.

I started a family earlier than many of my friends and colleagues. Both of my kids are done with college (debt free, even!) and while my burn rate has gone down, it is still elevated, having "coasted" for up to 6 months on multiple occasions in between jobs. It will continue to be higher until I'm around 65 and that's ok by me (my wife and I both intend to work into our mid-60's).

In my experience employers start sharpening the boning knife as workers approach 50- not unilaterally but the higher-up's want to identify who might be average or below...

I haven't had too many "surprises" in my career and count myself among the very fortunate to have never been laid off. Knowing when it is time to go is about as easy as picking individual stocks (haha).... we often never know. I've always maintained a strong offense in those situations and made a move before being culled.

The more planning and preparing you do, the easier it is roll with a job transition like a small speed bump in the road. I'm in my mid-50's and recently landed a new job by remotely interviewing and starting during Covid-19. First time I've ever worked remotely from day one (which will definitely change at some point when things settle down) and I don't mind at all.

User avatar
beyou
Posts: 3151
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:57 pm
Location: Northeastern US

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by beyou » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:05 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:29 pm
Will do good wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:14 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
Not just IT, imagine how fast they remove older people in the creative field, music, arts, fashion, advertising, film etc.
I never said age discrimination was limited to IT.

However, there are many industries where a large percentage of workers are over age 50. According to this Forbes article, these include airlines, utilities, insurance, retail, chemical, aerospace and defense, and others. I also know from experience that higher ed and medicine include many over 50.
Yes but each industry and career does have inherent differences from others.
In a field like tech, knowledge of older tech can be viewed as a negative by some.
In tech we have no unions, no barriers to entry (officially, unofficially one would hope less skilled persons do not work in a field
but lived through booms where anyone breathing could take a Microsoft certification course and get a job).
Docs and Attorneys have graduate school, exams etc. What stops anyone from putting the latest tech on their resume ?
My own son is a very recent CS grad. I can't believe after how difficult it can be for kids to get that first job/internship, how heavily they are
recruited once they have literally a few weeks/months of experience. My son is 5 months into his first full time job and constantly contacted
by recruiters during the pandemic downturn. Real experience is highly undervalued in IT. My son is smart but he still calls and asks my 50+ year old opinion on many technical issues. Perception <> Reality in IT.

User avatar
TexasPE
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:41 pm
Location: Southeast Texas

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TexasPE » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:06 pm

Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 pm
...do not let yourself become like those people, where complacency leads you a place of extreme vulnerability.

... it just always comes down to "are you contributing as much as we are paying you?"
+1000

A mass layoff in my early 30's opened my eyes.

LBYM is important, but so is keeping oneself up-to-date/ marketable. Frequently take a realistic look at your value to the company. If someone your junior is capable of assuming your role, at a reduced salary, you are in jeopardy. I've seen several people in senior technical positions laid off when their performance was that of a less experienced person. They always seemed surprised, even though their co-workers were not. Often a reorganization or merger triggers these layoffs.

In my career I was fortunate to see some future opportunities in the technical area in our company and made sure to get the training/ certification to make me competitive for these opportunities as they appeared.
At 20: I cared what everyone thought about me | At 40: I didn't give a damn what anyone thought of me | Now that I'm 60: I realize that no one was really thinking about me at all | Winston Churchill (?)

TechFI
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:07 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TechFI » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:10 am

beyou wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:05 pm
Yes but each industry and career does have inherent differences from others.
In a field like tech, knowledge of older tech can be viewed as a negative by some.
In tech we have no unions, no barriers to entry (officially, unofficially one would hope less skilled persons do not work in a field
but lived through booms where anyone breathing could take a Microsoft certification course and get a job).
Docs and Attorneys have graduate school, exams etc. What stops anyone from putting the latest tech on their resume ?
My own son is a very recent CS grad. I can't believe after how difficult it can be for kids to get that first job/internship, how heavily they are
recruited once they have literally a few weeks/months of experience. My son is 5 months into his first full time job and constantly contacted
by recruiters during the pandemic downturn. Real experience is highly undervalued in IT. My son is smart but he still calls and asks my 50+ year old opinion on many technical issues. Perception <> Reality in IT.
Not sure what 'tech' industry you are part of, but the barrier of entry is not a joke like you claimed.

Unless you come from the 'golden path' (i.e. come from the right CS program, have the right internships), it is extremely difficult to break into tech. I speak from experience.

Also, hiring for entry-levels have slowed, and the real demand is in senior-level FTEs that have at least 5 yoe.

There's a reason why boot camp grads takes months to find a job after 'graduation'. The market is simply flooded with too many 0 yoe people. As a person who make hiring decisions, I will not consider a candidate if they are not from the 'golden path' or have substantial experience or good prior employer pedigree.

CycloRista
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:53 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CycloRista » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:56 am

TechFI wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:10 am
beyou wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:05 pm
Yes but each industry and career does have inherent differences from others.
In a field like tech, knowledge of older tech can be viewed as a negative by some.
In tech we have no unions, no barriers to entry (officially, unofficially one would hope less skilled persons do not work in a field
but lived through booms where anyone breathing could take a Microsoft certification course and get a job).
Docs and Attorneys have graduate school, exams etc. What stops anyone from putting the latest tech on their resume ?
My own son is a very recent CS grad. I can't believe after how difficult it can be for kids to get that first job/internship, how heavily they are
recruited once they have literally a few weeks/months of experience. My son is 5 months into his first full time job and constantly contacted
by recruiters during the pandemic downturn. Real experience is highly undervalued in IT. My son is smart but he still calls and asks my 50+ year old opinion on many technical issues. Perception <> Reality in IT.
Not sure what 'tech' industry you are part of, but the barrier of entry is not a joke like you claimed.

Unless you come from the 'golden path' (i.e. come from the right CS program, have the right internships), it is extremely difficult to break into tech. I speak from experience.

Also, hiring for entry-levels have slowed, and the real demand is in senior-level FTEs that have at least 5 yoe.

There's a reason why boot camp grads takes months to find a job after 'graduation'. The market is simply flooded with too many 0 yoe people. As a person who make hiring decisions, I will not consider a candidate if they are not from the 'golden path' or have substantial experience or good prior employer pedigree.
Disagree with you re: coming from the golden path. Some depends on the area where you seek new IT opportunities.

In a major metropolitan city, I've hired TV station technicians, millennials with little or no hands on enterprise IT experience, etc. that are still with the same organization more than a decade later (I moved on and still keep in touch with them and others I've worked with in the past).

Many employers make it difficult to get past HR cookie cutter nonsense but it is still quite possible without coming from the right CS program (or having a college degree for that matter), wearing the right certification credential on you sleeve, etc.

User avatar
Harry Livermore
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Harry Livermore » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:28 am

bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am

I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours...

Accumulating money starting early in one s career is the best way to provide one and his family with the security we need. I m recommending to my kids that they strive to save 25-40% of their income. Tax deferred plans should be maximized, but after tax savings is equally important to provide ones life with some financial strength prior to retirement.
Absolutely agree.
I was lucky because I generally made way more money and worked fewer hours/ days than my friends and peers who were employed full-time. I was also lucky that I met really good people who mentored and hired me early on. The only real credit I give myself is that I had the discipline to save and invest the money that I earned.
Cheers

User avatar
HomerJ
Posts: 14879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:50 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HomerJ » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am

bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”

User avatar
Topic Author
CyclingDuo
Posts: 3391
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:26 am

HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
Even without the Covid pandemic and in more normal times for the food industry, that's a risk one takes when they attempt to "buy an income".
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

Wrench
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:21 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Wrench » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm

Published a couple days ago, Opinion: Bye, boomer: the coming cull of workers over 50:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bye-b ... _headlines

bltn
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:32 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by bltn » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:13 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
Owning your own company has the benefits of being largely in control of your job. But you cannot control the outside business climate, and your success is dependent on your decisions. Being ones own boss takes a certain amount of courage. Maybe that can be characterized as lying awake at night worrying.

Interesting about your neighbor. In the first 10 years of my career, while working 70 hours a week, I thought I would like to run a second business. I looked into several national restaurant franchise chains , and actually applied for a franchise with one that sells a lot of hamburgers. Hoping that I might acquire several restaurants and maybe even change jobs. I was lucky that my application was turned down. Soon after, I started indexing and accepted that my job was enough work and income to take care of my family.

KlangFool
Posts: 16992
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:46 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
I found it interesting in Thomas Stanley's book The Millionaire Mind that while a large proportion of the millionaires he surveyed (which was not a very representative sample of American millionaires, though the book tried to portray that they were) were business owners, the majority of those who were did not recommend that their children take the path that they did. Anecdotal evidence Stanley obtained from interviews suggested that many of these business owners felt that they, to an extent, got lucky. Many of them knew others who worked just as hard as they did at their own business still fail or not achieve much success. Consequently, the successful business owners frequently suggested that their children go into professional services (e.g. medicine, law, wealth management), where the upside potential would often be lower but the path to a still relatively high income more sure. I took that to heart myself, and it paid off very well.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

KlangFool
Posts: 16992
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:10 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:46 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
I found it interesting in Thomas Stanley's book The Millionaire Mind that while a large proportion of the millionaires he surveyed (which was not a very representative sample of American millionaires, though the book tried to portray that they were) were business owners, the majority of those who were did not recommend that their children take the path that they did. Anecdotal evidence Stanley obtained from interviews suggested that many of these business owners felt that they, to an extent, got lucky. Many of them knew others who worked just as hard as they did at their own business still fail or not achieve much success. Consequently, the successful business owners frequently suggested that their children go into professional services (e.g. medicine, law, wealth management), where the upside potential would often be lower but the path to a still relatively high income more sure. I took that to heart myself, and it paid off very well.
willthrill81,

Some of the millionaires in my family never enter high school. Meanwhile, some have graduate degrees. We are multi-generation business family. We have our own informal mean of training future business owners. And, we have the social network to nurture and support business owners. We are not solely dependent on the formal channel.

KlangFool

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:30 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:10 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:46 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
I found it interesting in Thomas Stanley's book The Millionaire Mind that while a large proportion of the millionaires he surveyed (which was not a very representative sample of American millionaires, though the book tried to portray that they were) were business owners, the majority of those who were did not recommend that their children take the path that they did. Anecdotal evidence Stanley obtained from interviews suggested that many of these business owners felt that they, to an extent, got lucky. Many of them knew others who worked just as hard as they did at their own business still fail or not achieve much success. Consequently, the successful business owners frequently suggested that their children go into professional services (e.g. medicine, law, wealth management), where the upside potential would often be lower but the path to a still relatively high income more sure. I took that to heart myself, and it paid off very well.
willthrill81,

Some of the millionaires in my family never enter high school. Meanwhile, some have graduate degrees. We are multi-generation business family. We have our own informal mean of training future business owners. And, we have the social network to nurture and support business owners. We are not solely dependent on the formal channel.

KlangFool
It reminds me of a poke restaurant that my wife and I went to last week. There was a kid who couldn't have been older than 13 working hard in what was clearly a family enterprise, and he was doing a great job. He'll know more about running a business when he's 18 than most who major in business in college will when they graduate.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

smitcat
Posts: 6110
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:58 am

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
"I know I am not one of them."
In my humble opinion once you state that you cannot do something you will never do it.
Related to this ...we have spent much time with our daughter and many other kids teaching them that they can do whatever they want to in life.
It appears to have worked out very well so far, time will tell.

KlangFool
Posts: 16992
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:35 am

smitcat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:58 am
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
"I know I am not one of them."
In my humble opinion once you state that you cannot do something you will never do it.
Related to this ...we have spent much time with our daughter and many other kids teaching them that they can do whatever they want to in life.
It appears to have worked out very well so far, time will tell.
I was in my family business since childhood. So, I have first hand experience. The only kind of business that suits me is a consulting services business. I did that on and off a rew times.

KlangFool

smitcat
Posts: 6110
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:49 am

KlangFool wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:35 am
smitcat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:58 am
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am
bltn wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
"I know I am not one of them."
In my humble opinion once you state that you cannot do something you will never do it.
Related to this ...we have spent much time with our daughter and many other kids teaching them that they can do whatever they want to in life.
It appears to have worked out very well so far, time will tell.
I was in my family business since childhood. So, I have first hand experience. The only kind of business that suits me is a consulting services business. I did that on and off a rew times.

KlangFool
My thoughts would be different in many ways, here are a few
- you have said your job of many years took 40 hours a week plus 20 to stay current, there would be no way to have enough time to be exposed to optional business thoughts or opportunities
- we have seen kids that were told 'firsthand' that they could not learn something, or could not do something overcome their obstacles many times
- we were told that we would not be able to own our own business as well , thankfully we did not listen to others
- it would be very good if you do not teach your kids that they can not be successful at something for any reason

KlangFool
Posts: 16992
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:30 am

smitcat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:49 am
KlangFool wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:35 am
smitcat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:58 am
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm
HomerJ wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:11 am


There's a huge difference between being fired from a salary job, and being "fired" from your own company because it went out of business.

Not only do you lose income, but you lose a large investment at the same time.

My neighbor quit his job and bought a couple of chain restaurants. I think he has a lot more worries lying in bed at night than I do.
A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
"I know I am not one of them."
In my humble opinion once you state that you cannot do something you will never do it.
Related to this ...we have spent much time with our daughter and many other kids teaching them that they can do whatever they want to in life.
It appears to have worked out very well so far, time will tell.
I was in my family business since childhood. So, I have first hand experience. The only kind of business that suits me is a consulting services business. I did that on and off a rew times.

KlangFool
My thoughts would be different in many ways, here are a few
- you have said your job of many years took 40 hours a week plus 20 to stay current, there would be no way to have enough time to be exposed to optional business thoughts or opportunities
- we have seen kids that were told 'firsthand' that they could not learn something, or could not do something overcome their obstacles many times
- we were told that we would not be able to own our own business as well , thankfully we did not listen to others
- it would be very good if you do not teach your kids that they can not be successful at something for any reason
smitcat,

<<- you have said your job of many years took 40 hours a week plus 20 to stay current, there would be no way to have enough time to be exposed to optional business thoughts or opportunities>>

I was in my family business since childhood. 50% of my extended family is in one form of business or another. Our family gathering and dining table are rooms for discussion of who did what business and what they did in their businesses. So, I have extensive exposure to many businesses even before entering college.

I was running a software business plus consulting while I was in college. I was making a well-informed decision.

KlangFool

smitcat
Posts: 6110
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:56 am

KlangFool wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:30 am
smitcat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:49 am
KlangFool wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:35 am
smitcat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:58 am
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm


A) I come from a multi-generation business family. 50% or more of my extended family is in one form of business or another. From my own first-hand observation, it takes a certain kind of person to be successful in business. I know I am not one of them.

B) There are many millionaires in my family. Some of them run their own business and some of them are salary workers. The only commonality among the millionaires is they are frugal. They saved 30+% or more of their gross income.

KlangFool
"I know I am not one of them."
In my humble opinion once you state that you cannot do something you will never do it.
Related to this ...we have spent much time with our daughter and many other kids teaching them that they can do whatever they want to in life.
It appears to have worked out very well so far, time will tell.
I was in my family business since childhood. So, I have first hand experience. The only kind of business that suits me is a consulting services business. I did that on and off a rew times.

KlangFool
My thoughts would be different in many ways, here are a few
- you have said your job of many years took 40 hours a week plus 20 to stay current, there would be no way to have enough time to be exposed to optional business thoughts or opportunities
- we have seen kids that were told 'firsthand' that they could not learn something, or could not do something overcome their obstacles many times
- we were told that we would not be able to own our own business as well , thankfully we did not listen to others
- it would be very good if you do not teach your kids that they can not be successful at something for any reason
smitcat,

<<- you have said your job of many years took 40 hours a week plus 20 to stay current, there would be no way to have enough time to be exposed to optional business thoughts or opportunities>>

I was in my family business since childhood. 50% of my extended family is in one form of business or another. Our family gathering and dining table are rooms for discussion of who did what business and what they did in their businesses. So, I have extensive exposure to many businesses even before entering college.

I was running a software business plus consulting while I was in college. I was making a well-informed decision.

KlangFool
"I was in my family business since childhood. 50% of my extended family is in one form of business or another. Our family gathering and dining table are rooms for discussion of who did what business and what they did in their businesses. So, I have extensive exposure to many businesses even before entering college."

That is great how much time have you spent on these tasks:
- courses on business
- with the SBA
- with SCORE
- developing business plans
- with local business leaders
- with local business groups
Things like that?

User avatar
greg24
Posts: 3905
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:34 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by greg24 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:15 pm

https://gizmodo.com/baby-boomers-are-ex ... 1844606699

Baby Boomers Are Experiencing Greater Cognitive Decline Than Previous Generations, Study Fi
Baby boomers are experiencing a sharper drop in cognitive function as they age, relative to previous generations. The findings not only suggest that boomers will be more likely to develop conditions like dementia than past cohorts, but future aging generations may be at a similar heightened risk.

The study, published in The Journals of Gerontology: Series B late last month, looked at the cognitive test scores of over 30,000 Americans over the age of 50 who were enrolled in an existing, long-running research project by the University of Michigan, called the Health and Retirement Survey. As part of the project, volunteers were asked interview questions meant to evaluate their cognitive function every two years. Questions included counting backwards from 100 in increments of 7 and having to recall the name of recent objects they were shown. All told, the study analyzed nearly 20 years worth of test scores, collected from 1996 to 2014.

Though people do generally lose a step or two in their brain power as part of the normal aging process, the study found there was an improving trend in cognitive function across generations born before and during World War II. The study had data for the following cohorts: Greatest Generation (born 1890-1923); Early Children of Depression (born 1924-1930); Late Children of Depression (born 1931-1941); War Babies (born 1942-1947); early baby boomers (born 1948–1953); and mid baby boomers (born 1954–1959).

----

Zheng also tried to account for age-related declines in cognition by looking only at the scores of people in their early 50s. But again, early baby boomers in their 50s on average had lower test scores than did people from earlier generations in that same age group. That likely means that whatever is causing this drop in cognition, the decline started becoming apparent by the time baby boomers were still middle-aged.

User avatar
Topic Author
CyclingDuo
Posts: 3391
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:21 am

greg24 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:15 pm
https://gizmodo.com/baby-boomers-are-ex ... 1844606699

Baby Boomers Are Experiencing Greater Cognitive Decline Than Previous Generations, Study Fi
“The underlying causes include lower wealth, lower likelihood of being married, higher levels of loneliness and depression, and higher level of cardiovascular risk factors (e.g., obesity, physical inactivity, hypertension, diabetes, strokes, heart disease),” Zheng said in an email to Gizmodo. He also noted that the U.S. has its own added roadblocks, such as the lack of universal, affordable health care.

:shock:
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

User avatar
gr7070
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:26 am

CyclingDuo wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:21 am
greg24 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:15 pm
https://gizmodo.com/baby-boomers-are-ex ... 1844606699

Baby Boomers Are Experiencing Greater Cognitive Decline Than Previous Generations, Study Fi
“The underlying causes include lower wealth, lower likelihood of being married, higher levels of loneliness and depression, and higher level of cardiovascular risk factors (e.g., obesity, physical inactivity, hypertension, diabetes, strokes, heart disease),” Zheng said in an email to Gizmodo. He also noted that the U.S. has its own added roadblocks, such as the lack of universal, affordable health care.

:shock:
Yep.

I posted this link in Boglehead's recently. The best way to keep your mind sharp and functioning is not by keeping your mind active; it's not reading, not mental puzzles, etc. It's by keeping your body active - exercise!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.iflsci ... cientists/

User avatar
Topic Author
CyclingDuo
Posts: 3391
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:45 am

gr7070 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:26 am
CyclingDuo wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:21 am
greg24 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:15 pm
https://gizmodo.com/baby-boomers-are-ex ... 1844606699

Baby Boomers Are Experiencing Greater Cognitive Decline Than Previous Generations, Study Fi
“The underlying causes include lower wealth, lower likelihood of being married, higher levels of loneliness and depression, and higher level of cardiovascular risk factors (e.g., obesity, physical inactivity, hypertension, diabetes, strokes, heart disease),” Zheng said in an email to Gizmodo. He also noted that the U.S. has its own added roadblocks, such as the lack of universal, affordable health care.

:shock:
Yep.

I posted this link in Boglehead's recently. The best way to keep your mind sharp and functioning is not by keeping your mind active; it's not reading, not mental puzzles, etc. It's by keeping your body active - exercise!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.iflsci ... cientists/
I'm good. I get about 6 to 7K miles on the bike each year, lift weights, keep slim and trim, brush my teeth - and even floss. Now - what time is today's nap scheduled for.....?

CyclingDuo
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

User avatar
gr7070
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:02 am

CyclingDuo wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:45 am
I'm good. I get about 6 to 7K miles on the bike each year...

CyclingDuo
That's awesome!

I commuted for the past 10+ years on my bike and still probably only got half those miles annually - not a real long commute. I changed jobs and had to give up commuting, was a worthwhile, yet disappointing change.

I typically mountain bike for fun, so the mileage isn't there in the woods, either. Though with Covid now I'm doing a decent amount of miles on the road during the weekdays from home.

BH_RedRan
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:27 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by BH_RedRan » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:20 pm

I lost my tech job with a mini-corp in my 50s, just a few years ago along with about a dozen other engineers. There were complex reasons for it, not just age or pay although cutting expenses was a big part of it. In years prior the mini-corp had dabbled in all the "cool" CEO projects like outsourcing production to China (big flop), outsourcing some firmware to India (also a big flop), trying offshore FW outsourcing again on another project (bigger flop). By flop I mean that the money was mis-spent with no return, schedules stretching, no or poorly working product and angry customers. A couple of years after my layoff, the division shut down completely. It was once a dream company to work for but suffered from CEO turn-over with each trying risky ventures/ideas outside of their capability with poor results. (BTW, I'm not saying trying new approaches to problems is bad but there are pit-falls to avoid and this company often didn't avoid them.)

About 5 years prior to my lay off I started to feel unsettled and each year I started to think was my last with the company after 20+ years there. But I was mostly financially secure and I started a side gig, just small jobs here and there. The company was aware of this and supported it as long as my projects were done well / on time and didn't compete with their core business, which, based on their feedback, I accomplished. Anyway, the layoff happened and it still stung a bit but by that time my business was doing fine and I was in shape to earn about the same or more as I was for mini-corp. After the initial hit to the ego I actually felt relieved as I no longer had to worry about "that day" coming. Afterwards, mini-corp contracted with me for a few projects even (because their good engineers had either been laid off or left because of the writing on the wall).

I've had some time to reflect on my own situation and my advice is:

Enjoy your job while you have it / work at something you enjoy.

Know your shortcomings. Work on them if it increases your value to yourself and others.

Keep your eyes open. The business landscape isn't like it was and the new boss or boss's boss might not understand your value (or even know what
you do) like the old boss did. It wasn't difficult to see offshoring of jobs moving up the chain over time for example.

Talk to your peers and trusted supervisors to help stay in tune with what is going on with your business. If the corp. shares business data, read it.

Be prepared for and plan for change. Save as much as possible and have a PLAN B in your pocket.
Keep your significant other looped in to your thinking so they are not surprised either.

Don't expect a CEO or Corp to be your friend as that is not its purpose. A bear acts like a bear, a wolf acts like a wolf and a snake acts like a
snake etc.. Try to know which one(s) you have nearby.

If it makes sense in your case and the situation is looking shaky, jump before you are pushed.

Go forth gracefully and keep your head high. It isn't personal (usually). If you planned well and you have some useful skills, a couple of contacts
in your field and just a little good luck it can go well for you.

3of10
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by 3of10 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:10 pm

This has been a great thread. One thing that can't be emphasized enough is to take care of your health when going through this personal crisis. It's important to finds ways to remove the stress on the body. I've read here about people losing their jobs in their 20s and 30s. Even though it's stressful, a young body can deal with it and stay strong.

Not so when you get older (50s+). And, it goes beyond exercise. There's a difference between needing a job, and wanting a job. At my megacorp, there were co-workers and friends being let go for over the past 10-15 years on a regular basis. It just made me strive harder to become FI. That was the saving grace for me.

Wannaretireearly
Posts: 1036
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Wannaretireearly » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:45 pm

tnr wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:21 pm
There is little data on how prevalent age discrimination isn the private workplace actually is. It is is a function of the type of work you do. We BH might overestimate the likelihood of age discrimination hit us, but as another poster has mentioned, there is little harm in planning for the possibility. Financial responsibility early in your career is obvious. I tell my younger colleagues that besides staying current in your field, I think diversification of career experiences is extremely helpful. Work in different areas, different companies. Try different roles: management, technical, salesmanship. If the plug gets pulled on you in your early 50's and you want to keep working, the diversification will greatly help in finding something else quickly.
Very good advice. I made a lateral move from an IT BRM (biz relationship mgr) to an IT EA leadership/managerial position. Keeping it interesting for me. Discussions with Gartner, leading Data Science COE, EA guild, etc etc.
Keep a look out for change opportunities internally. I think it gives u a good reputation as someone with flexibility, change agent etc
Buy Low, Sell High

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm

tnr wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:21 pm
There is little data on how prevalent age discrimination isn the private workplace actually is. It is is a function of the type of work you do. We BH might overestimate the likelihood of age discrimination hit us, but as another poster has mentioned, there is little harm in planning for the possibility. Financial responsibility early in your career is obvious. I tell my younger colleagues that besides staying current in your field, I think diversification of career experiences is extremely helpful. Work in different areas, different companies. Try different roles: management, technical, salesmanship. If the plug gets pulled on you in your early 50's and you want to keep working, the diversification will greatly help in finding something else quickly.
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it. And that's not just due to age discrimination. Health issues can warrant you leaving at any point along the way (one of my brothers-in-law is probably disabled for life in his mid 50s), and long-term disability insurance may or may not be there for you when you need it. A close family member may have health issues that force you to retire early or at least to change careers. Your career may even cease to exist; I remember stories of those who went to college to learn how to program computers with punch cards. And this is all aside from the fact that the last decade of your accumulation phase is the most important of all in terms of returns, and those returns may not materialize.

Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO. There are far too many potential wrenches just waiting to wreck that plan.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
gr7070
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Normchad
Posts: 860
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm

Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.

And they were looking mainly at people who had been with their current employers for at least 5 years. So a stable cohort of individuals.

I was shocked by their findings. Everybody should read it and really think about what it means for them.

jarjarM
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jarjarM » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:16 pm

Normchad wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm
Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.

And they were looking mainly at people who had been with their current employers for at least 5 years. So a stable cohort of individuals.

I was shocked by their findings. Everybody should read it and really think about what it means for them.
It was a shock to me too. Even though in tech we see it often where older workers were phased out and skim over during hiring, I assume it's better in other industries. I think the only takeaway for me is what has been mentioned many times on this thread, be FI by 50.

User avatar
Topic Author
CyclingDuo
Posts: 3391
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:17 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:02 am
I commuted for the past 10+ years on my bike and still probably only got half those miles annually - not a real long commute. I changed jobs and had to give up commuting, was a worthwhile, yet disappointing change.

I typically mountain bike for fun, so the mileage isn't there in the woods, either. Though with Covid now I'm doing a decent amount of miles on the road during the weekdays from home.
Sorry you lost your bike commute, but here's a big :beer on the mountain biking in the woods and your recent road miles. I raced mountain bikes for way too many years according to my wife. Was thinking about doing some races again this year after two years of pretty much working 6-7 days a week and staying off the mountain bike, then Covid hit and all mountain bike races were canceled for the season in these parts. I might see if I can talk my wife into letting me give it a go next year. She'll remind me that I did that for so many years I have nothing more to prove, but turning laps in the woods against the clock (in more ways than one 8-) ) and fighting other average Joe's for bragging rights is always a fun time on the mountain bike.

CyclingDuo
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Normchad wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm
Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.
And that's part of the reason why I say that planning on being continuously employed with stable retirement plan contributions until something like age 66 is not a robust plan. That's probably the best that many can do though, and they may have to deal with a less than desired financial situation in retirement.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
gr7070
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area).
I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.

Americans don't marry till age 29, thus have even less disposable income to save for those first many years.

Yes it is about priorities; but it is more than reasonable to have priorities set at, say, a 10% saving rate from age 25 to 30 and bump it up to 15 and 20+ as they age through their 30s.

As I said it's an unrealistic and unreasonable expectation for anything close to the median households to be FI55. It just is.

Typical Boglehead's, or at least typical, vocal Boglehead's I'm not arguing against.
Last edited by gr7070 on Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Normchad
Posts: 860
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:31 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:23 pm
Normchad wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm
Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.
And that's part of the reason why I say that planning on being continuously employed with stable retirement plan contributions until something like age 66 is not a robust plan. That's probably the best that many can do though, and they may have to deal with a less than desired financial situation in retirement.
I absolutely agree Will. I was trying to support your point. It’s not a remote possibility or an abstract notion that this could happen; the data shows it happens to over half of people. Until I read that paper, I had no idea how common place that disruption was.

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area).
I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.
Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:35 pm

Normchad wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:23 pm
Normchad wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm
Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.
And that's part of the reason why I say that planning on being continuously employed with stable retirement plan contributions until something like age 66 is not a robust plan. That's probably the best that many can do though, and they may have to deal with a less than desired financial situation in retirement.
I absolutely agree Will. I was trying to support your point. It’s not a remote possibility or an abstract notion that this could happen; the data shows it happens to over half of people. Until I read that paper, I had no idea how common place that disruption was.
Sorry if it seemed like I was countering your idea because I wasn't. I was citing your post as a prime example of why planning on experiencing 'no meaningful bumps' until one is 66 is a flawed plan. Plans without slack are not robust.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

kleiner
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:45 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by kleiner » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:37 pm

I've worked for almost thirty years in software, mostly in research but also some product development. I have a PhD in CS machine learning, probably one of the earliest ever. My joke has always been that I have been paid very handsomely, basically for knowing some linear algebra and basic calculus, not much beyond what's taught in first year of college :happy

The choice of machine learning was accidental - I originally, started out in a different subfield of CS but had to switch fields as I was not able to get along with my first advisor. ML appeared to be a quick way to get out with a degree. Back in the 1990s, I used to get blank looks when I told people my field of work. I had to be tactical in looking jobs when I graduated as there was zero demand for ML in the 1990s! So I worked in related subjects. However, since about 2010, I have not had any problems getting jobs as the field has exploded.

I used to spend an entire day on weekends reading the latest papers to keep up with research. But now in my late 50s, I simply don't have the enthusiasm I used to have. I know that I'm getting progressively more obsolete every day. It's definitely getting time for me to quit but I'm glad I had a good run while it lasted. Like George Costanza I hope I am "quitting on a high note" :happy

Normchad
Posts: 860
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:46 pm

kleiner wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:37 pm
I've worked for almost thirty years in software, mostly in research but also some product development. I have a PhD in CS machine learning, probably one of the earliest ever. My joke has always been that I have been paid very handsomely, basically for knowing some linear algebra and basic calculus, not much beyond what's taught in first year of college :happy

The choice of machine learning was accidental - I originally, started out in a different subfield of CS but had to switch fields as I was not able to get along with my first advisor. ML appeared to be a quick way to get out with a degree. Back in the 1990s, I used to get blank looks when I told people my field of work. I had to be tactical in looking jobs when I graduated as there was zero demand for ML in the 1990s! So I worked in related subjects. However, since about 2010, I have not had any problems getting jobs as the field has exploded.

I used to spend an entire day on weekends reading the latest papers to keep up with research. But now in my late 50s, I simply don't have the enthusiasm I used to have. I know that I'm getting progressively more obsolete every day. It's definitely getting time for me to quit but I'm glad I had a good run while it lasted. Like George Costanza I hope I am "quitting on a high note" :happy
I feel you. If you want to learn to hate the thing you love, do it for a living. I think that has happened to me. I think a lot about that when I see professional poker players or airline pilots. Like do they feel the same way? How fun is it to pilot a Southwest 737 from Tampa to Baltimore and Providence and back 4 days a week?

User avatar
gr7070
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:39 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area).
I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.
Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.

It's also ok to expect have an employment hiccup in ones 50s, take a pay cut and work for a decade+ more, maybe even a couple paycuts.

You even recognized interruptions are less likely for the median. So the need isn't there either.

55FI is silly for the vast majority, and it's also unnecessary.

User avatar
Topic Author
CyclingDuo
Posts: 3391
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:07 am

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm
Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
Nail hit squarely on the head!

That's the main take away anyone reading this thread years from now via a search should heed. I haven't really looked back to the 1980's and early 1990's to see if it was different or the same for workers in the age 50-62 range, but the message certainly was not being telegraphed to me when I started my career in the 1980's to make plans to be FI by age 50 and get ready for what could happen in your 50's. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Regardless, we've plowed ahead since 2018 and kept on track now that I have entered my third year of OMY.

CyclingDuo
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 19697
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm




I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area).
I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.
Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.
I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

Post Reply