Losing a job in your 50's...

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willthrill81
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:49 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:46 pm
A) How do you tell anyone that has no laid off experience that they may not be continuously fully-employed until retirement age?

B) And, they should not be "House Poor" and buy that big expensive house assuming full-employment until retirement age?

Unfortunately, it is too late for many people when they faced this reality in their 50s. They had overspent on their houses and they do not have the time and the future earning to recover from the house mistake.
A. The best you can probably do is point to the statistics that say otherwise along with telling stories about those who experienced layoffs.

B. Similar to A. But it's not necessarily too late to retire if you realize the gravity of the situation by around age 50 and are willing to make some potentially drastic changes to correct the problem. Pete the Planner had a good show last year about this exact issue. Basically, it comes down to
1. dramatically increasing your savings rate,
2. potentially downsizing your home, which might not be too difficult if the kids are grown,
3. ensuring that your mortgage, if applicable, is paid off by the time you retire in order to reduce your spending needs and sequence of returns risk,
4. deferring SS benefits until age 70, which only a small proportion of retirees do.

Of course, if you're laid off in your 50s and have to take on different job that pays significantly less, the difficulty of the above steps is more difficult. But the alternative is to keep working until you're dead or 'mostly dead', which is what many will have to do.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:51 pm

Another article regarding those over the age of 50 and historical implications of what happens in and around recessions...

Bye, boomer: the coming cull of workers over 50

Employers seize on slumps to purge more expensive, more experienced workers, study warns...


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bye-b ... _headlines

I was hoping to find the link to the research study cited for the article, but couldn't come up with it at this moment in a brief search. Regardless, most of this is not news to those of us who have been impacted or have posted throughout this thread.

CyclingDuo
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

anoop
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by anoop » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:11 pm

CyclingDuo wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:51 pm
Another article regarding those over the age of 50 and historical implications of what happens in and around recessions...

Bye, boomer: the coming cull of workers over 50

Employers seize on slumps to purge more expensive, more experienced workers, study warns...


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bye-b ... _headlines

I was hoping to find the link to the research study cited for the article, but couldn't come up with it at this moment in a brief search. Regardless, most of this is not news to those of us who have been impacted or have posted throughout this thread.

CyclingDuo
https://www.nber.org/papers/w27581

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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:29 pm

anoop wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:11 pm
https://www.nber.org/papers/w27581
Ah....thanks for that. Much obliged!

CyclingDuo
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Wrench » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:37 pm

I too was laid off in my late '50s, or as I like to say, "retired-off", i.e., take this package and retire or leave. I took the package. But, I had planned on it happening for over 10 years because I saw it happen a little in ~2000, then a lot in 2008-2009. In both those periods lots of people seemed to announce they were leaving, but it always seemed to be long-term employees who where 55 yo or older. Hmm... I even heard there was some talk of filing an age discrimination suit, but it never happened because in order to take "the package" you had to agree not to sue. So, my observation then was only a lucky few or extremely astute (political?) or C-suite managers survive in a big company into their 60s. There was no reason to believe I would not be gone too when I reached that age, so I decided to plan on it happening. I started a sidelight business in 2002 in an area completely different than my main job so there were no conflicts of interest. Over the next 10 years, I slowly grew the business so that when the inevitable (and expected) shoe dropped in 2013, I transitioned my sidelight business into full time. I also picked up a part-time gig at my local University based on some contacts I had nurtured there over my entire career. Bottom line - I am doing better financially than when I was working for the big company, and I am enjoying it much more too. I'll probably keep working well into my 70s because I enjoy what I do, and my customers appreciate my efforts and routinely give me the positive feedback that I rarely got when I worked for megacorp.

So if there is anyone reading this thread that is less than 50, my advice is get ready! You may very well be one of the ones that is "outta-here" by your late 50s. Whether that plan is to save enough to allow you to retire at that point, or like me it involves a sideline business, or rental real estate, or even living off your spouse, or whatever, get ready now so you're prepared if (when!) it happens.

wrench

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Ependytis » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:37 pm

I recently got a package at 56. I am now in a position to choose to work or not. Surprisingly, I’ve gotten a number of different offers. Now it’s my choice to continue to work or not. I count my blessings every day that I lived way below my means and I’ve had a paid off house for the last five years in a VHCOL state. I took a lot of teasing from my siblings, now looking back it was worth it (they were probably right about the Chevrolet Cavalier that I bought in 1986- it was not reliable to say the least). I would encourage everybody to live below their means. If and when your ticket is up professionally, you won’t regret it. I’m so glad I didn’t get sucked into buying all the worthless crap. I say this with some authority based on all my neighbor’s garages being so full they can’t park their cars in the garage. All the best.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by LilyFleur » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:44 pm

GatorFL wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:46 am
I recently spent a week vacation with my wife's best friend and her 2nd husband. He is 60, she is 53. I was shocked to learn that he signed for a boatload of Parent Plus loans for his oldest step daughter as well as the 2nd daughter. He didn't give an exact number, but said it was close to 6 figures! He works like a dog, is in poor health, and lives in a house that is falling apart.

He told me that they were selling their house and buying a newer and larger house as he didn't believe that Parent Plus loans would impact his ability to get a mortgage. I told him that I don't see how that is possible, debt is debt to me.

While I felt bad in the beginning for him, I started to uncover some things:

1. Step daughter #1 simply had to go to a small private college. State school was simply not good enough even though there was one literally in the same town. 4 years of private liberal arts to get an English degree with no job other than minimum wage.
2. Truck: In the midst of the vacation, I found out they were buying a 50K truck, but got "a deal" on it with their trade in and it was only 30K. Thee truck was needed to clean out the bad house. My response to that was that Home Depot rents a truck for about $30 for a day. I've used it before to get rid of stuff.
3. They tried to get deadbeat Dad to contribute to the 2nd daughters college and were not successful, so more loans.
4. They "apply and hope" for their credit, the whole vacation was stressed because of them waiting for the approval email for the truck.

It was downright depressing to have to listen to all the stories and misery. My feeling bad turned to me being irritated with them for making bad decisions, and biting my tongue for an entire week has left me nearly tongueless!

While I haven't made all the best moves, I am modestly FI at 54 and while I am still working, I agree with many of the other posts that it is good to have options.

My main point of this post is to take the time to breathe a sigh of relief and thank God for LBYM (or at least living AT your means) decisions.
GatorFL
This is a cautionary tale of the dangers of remarriage.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by klondike » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:05 pm

Klang, I have that stupid thing too. I have not been actively looking to be a star performer but I just can't let things ruin my reputation. I thought I would not have given a damn once I become FI but that's simply not true.
KlangFool wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:27 pm
Sorry. That does not work for me. I have a stupid sense of family honor and reputation to upheld. It goes back thousands of years.
KlangFool

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:48 pm

Wrench wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:37 pm
In both those periods lots of people seemed to announce they were leaving, but it always seemed to be long-term employees who where 55 yo or older. Hmm... I even heard there was some talk of filing an age discrimination suit, but it never happened because in order to take "the package" you had to agree not to sue.
Just for clarification for those reading, it's only illegal according to federal law (specifically, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967) to discriminate on the basis of age for those 40 and older. Some states prohibit age discrimination for younger workers. Of course, age discrimination happens all the time, especially in certain industries, but it's often difficult to prove. I suspect that one of the more common reasons for it today is the cost of providing healthcare insurance to the employee.

Still, limiting buyout or retirement packages to only those age 55 and older alone would not qualify as age discrimination, at least accordingly to federal law. At least in higher ed, that's seemingly the standard threshold for such packages.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:06 am

Wrench wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:37 pm
I too was laid off in my late '50s, or as I like to say, "retired-off", i.e., take this package and retire or leave. I took the package. But, I had planned on it happening for over 10 years because I saw it happen a little in ~2000, then a lot in 2008-2009. In both those periods lots of people seemed to announce they were leaving, but it always seemed to be long-term employees who where 55 yo or older. Hmm... I even heard there was some talk of filing an age discrimination suit, but it never happened because in order to take "the package" you had to agree not to sue. So, my observation then was only a lucky few or extremely astute (political?) or C-suite managers survive in a big company into their 60s. There was no reason to believe I would not be gone too when I reached that age, so I decided to plan on it happening. I started a sidelight business in 2002 in an area completely different than my main job so there were no conflicts of interest. Over the next 10 years, I slowly grew the business so that when the inevitable (and expected) shoe dropped in 2013, I transitioned my sidelight business into full time. I also picked up a part-time gig at my local University based on some contacts I had nurtured there over my entire career. Bottom line - I am doing better financially than when I was working for the big company, and I am enjoying it much more too. I'll probably keep working well into my 70s because I enjoy what I do, and my customers appreciate my efforts and routinely give me the positive feedback that I rarely got when I worked for megacorp.

So if there is anyone reading this thread that is less than 50, my advice is get ready! You may very well be one of the ones that is "outta-here" by your late 50s. Whether that plan is to save enough to allow you to retire at that point, or like me it involves a sideline business, or rental real estate, or even living off your spouse, or whatever, get ready now so you're prepared if (when!) it happens.

wrench
Great story to your transition, wrench. Love that you planned ahead, slowly created your own business, and fought your own fight to create an income flow and now are enjoying what you do more than your prior "big company" years. Talk about a smooth transition! :beer

The additional wise advice about utilizing the years of preparation leading up to hitting your 50's for what may be the inevitable for many as they reach the age of downsizing and layoffs helps contributes to the thread. Kudos!

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Wrench » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:31 am

Thanks, CyclingDuo. Lest I leave the wrong impression, I have no animosity towards my former employer, probably because I had prepared so well. There were tough decisions to be made, and frankly, if I were responsible for making them at the time, I'm not sure I would not have made the same choices. "Retire-off" someone whose kids are grown and has a substantial balance in the ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Program - the company had a VERY generous program) or lay off one (or two) people who has (have) half the salary AND young kids to support? I'm not sure what the right choice was from a business perspective comparing losing experience/knowledge versus reducing expenses, but from a personal perspective, I probably would have chosen to "retire-off" the old guy too! I am not arguing that it is "right", just that I understand the difficult choice that had to be made.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:21 am

Wrench wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:37 pm
I too was laid off in my late '50s, or as I like to say, "retired-off", i.e., take this package and retire or leave. I took the package. But, I had planned on it happening for over 10 years because I saw it happen a little in ~2000, then a lot in 2008-2009. In both those periods lots of people seemed to announce they were leaving, but it always seemed to be long-term employees who where 55 yo or older. Hmm... I even heard there was some talk of filing an age discrimination suit, but it never happened because in order to take "the package" you had to agree not to sue. So, my observation then was only a lucky few or extremely astute (political?) or C-suite managers survive in a big company into their 60s. There was no reason to believe I would not be gone too when I reached that age, so I decided to plan on it happening. I started a sidelight business in 2002 in an area completely different than my main job so there were no conflicts of interest. Over the next 10 years, I slowly grew the business so that when the inevitable (and expected) shoe dropped in 2013, I transitioned my sidelight business into full time. I also picked up a part-time gig at my local University based on some contacts I had nurtured there over my entire career. Bottom line - I am doing better financially than when I was working for the big company, and I am enjoying it much more too. I'll probably keep working well into my 70s because I enjoy what I do, and my customers appreciate my efforts and routinely give me the positive feedback that I rarely got when I worked for megacorp.

So if there is anyone reading this thread that is less than 50, my advice is get ready! You may very well be one of the ones that is "outta-here" by your late 50s. Whether that plan is to save enough to allow you to retire at that point, or like me it involves a sideline business, or rental real estate, or even living off your spouse, or whatever, get ready now so you're prepared if (when!) it happens.

wrench
Our story is so very similar - but the ability to explain to others that now is the time to make changes and that it will even be more enjoyable has been very difficult. The barriers to change when one does not immediately have to are very large.
Oh and - congratulations as well!

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am

I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:11 pm

Keep in mind, the SCOTUS has ruled on this before. The laws against age discrimination cut a very narrow swath.

I’ve never personally seen any cases of age discrimination in my career in IT. I.e. never anybody fired or pushed out for being old.

I have seen lots of cases though of older workers getting pushed out because they couldn’t pull their weight anymore. That’s a combination of decades long wage growth combined with stale/diminishing skill sets, desire to coast, etc. age discrimation laws don’t protect you from this.

I’ve seen this so much, for so long, that I personally planned everything out so that I wouldn’t need to be employed past the age of fifty. The salary is great, but don’t count on it lasting until you are 70.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by flaccidsteele » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:19 pm

To contrast, employment law is extremely favourable to employees in Canada. Unlike being employed “at will” in America.

Personally I’ve always gotten paid at least 1 month of salary per year of tenure. This includes a 6-figure severance in lieu of notice via wrongful dismissal another severance in lieu of notice in the mid 5-digits.

I wasn’t a manager or an executive, and have never managed people.

Here are some relevant articles about the system up here

Busting the myths about severance pay: There is no set formula but some key factors

Long Service Worker Awarded 27 Months' Severance Pay

A decade ago when I was employed, I helped a coworker who had 32 years of tenure. He was facing pressure from management and was going to quit.

He had written out a resignation letter and I told him to rip it up and go for severance in lieu of notice instead. The fact that he was in his late 50s, specialized field, low re-employment opportunities at the same pay, etc. qualified him for a tidy sum.

Back then case law topped out at 24 months and that’s what he got (a little over a quarter million dollars) when he was expecting to get $0. It was better than a gold watch and pin

For a brief period
the 24 month “cap” was broken
, but has since been re-established
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by tnr » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:25 pm

I definitely saw this in my old company - large pharma. Yes, some of the over 50 folks who were ‘verped’ (voluntary early retirement program) out were happy to get the package or were not very productive but a large percentage of those individuals were very productive but felt they had no choice but retire. Note that these companies are very profitable and in no danger of going out of business. It is just a fact of life right now in the US.

The bottom line is everyone needs a strategy for unplanned exit, no matter what business you are in.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by beyou » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:47 pm

Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Keep in mind, the SCOTUS has ruled on this before. The laws against age discrimination cut a very narrow swath.

I’ve never personally seen any cases of age discrimination in my career in IT. I.e. never anybody fired or pushed out for being old.

I have seen lots of cases though of older workers getting pushed out because they couldn’t pull their weight anymore. That’s a combination of decades long wage growth combined with stale/diminishing skill sets, desire to coast, etc. age discrimation laws don’t protect you from this.

I’ve seen this so much, for so long, that I personally planned everything out so that I wouldn’t need to be employed past the age of fifty. The salary is great, but don’t count on it lasting until you are 70.
Well I have been in IT for 3 decades and managed many people. People of all ages can coast. You see people with 10 years working but 2 years experience equivalent, repeating same tasks with same skills over and over. You can find people in 50s learning latest tech. The real issue here is salary and health. Few people in 50s have the same health they once had, and few are paid like someone in their 20s. That said, frankly in my 50s with all my experience, I can accomplish things more quickly and get to better end result. Yes a younger person may work more hours but not get more done, not comparing people who apply themselves throughout their career.

You need to be ruthless about making money and saving it when you if you live in the US or anyplace with similar economic models. You need to be ready for
the fact that our govt provides retirement safety nets at 65 but allows your employer to get rid of you at 55. Expect to spend alot from 55 to 65.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by flyingaway » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:02 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:48 pm

Just for clarification for those reading, it's only illegal according to federal law (specifically, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967) to discriminate on the basis of age for those 40 and older. Some states prohibit age discrimination for younger workers. Of course, age discrimination happens all the time, especially in certain industries, but it's often difficult to prove. I suspect that one of the more common reasons for it today is the cost of providing healthcare insurance to the employee.

Still, limiting buyout or retirement packages to only those age 55 and older alone would not qualify as age discrimination, at least accordingly to federal law. At least in higher ed, that's seemingly the standard threshold for such packages.
I'd love to have a package to walk away in higher education. If one does not have ambition (promotion and prestige), the job is too easy to walk away.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:38 pm

beyou wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:47 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Keep in mind, the SCOTUS has ruled on this before. The laws against age discrimination cut a very narrow swath.

I’ve never personally seen any cases of age discrimination in my career in IT. I.e. never anybody fired or pushed out for being old.

I have seen lots of cases though of older workers getting pushed out because they couldn’t pull their weight anymore. That’s a combination of decades long wage growth combined with stale/diminishing skill sets, desire to coast, etc. age discrimation laws don’t protect you from this.

I’ve seen this so much, for so long, that I personally planned everything out so that I wouldn’t need to be employed past the age of fifty. The salary is great, but don’t count on it lasting until you are 70.
Well I have been in IT for 3 decades and managed many people. People of all ages can coast. You see people with 10 years working but 2 years experience equivalent, repeating same tasks with same skills over and over. You can find people in 50s learning latest tech. The real issue here is salary and health. Few people in 50s have the same health they once had, and few are paid like someone in their 20s. That said, frankly in my 50s with all my experience, I can accomplish things more quickly and get to better end result. Yes a younger person may work more hours but not get more done, not comparing people who apply themselves throughout their career.

You need to be ruthless about making money and saving it when you if you live in the US or anyplace with similar economic models. You need to be ready for
the fact that our govt provides retirement safety nets at 65 but allows your employer to get rid of you at 55. Expect to spend alot from 55 to 65.
Definitely true that there are younger folks coasting. They get fired too, but this topic is specifically about people over. 50.

And you’re right, there are people in their 50s and over that are absolutely worth every penny they earn. I manage a few of those as well.

But there are far more of the other kind. They’re not getting pushed out cause they’re old, they’re getting pushed out because they’re not good enough anymore. And a lot of people really misjudge the value they bring to the enterprise. A lot of people think they are better then they are, and this is true for people in their 20s and for people in their 50s. Mental decline after 50 is real for a lot of people.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by SB1234 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
anecdotes are not data

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by btq96r » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:24 pm

I've been saving/investing well above the norm of my peers in my 30s and plan to continue in my 40s so that if I do lose a job in my 50s, it's not a panic event. If I don't lose a job in my 50s, then I'll be well on my way to an early retirement.

Threads like this are a good reminder that I think my plan is a decent one.
Moderation is for Canadians.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Barkingsparrow » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:38 pm

tnr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:25 pm
I definitely saw this in my old company - large pharma. Yes, some of the over 50 folks who were ‘verped’ (voluntary early retirement program) out were happy to get the package or were not very productive but a large percentage of those individuals were very productive but felt they had no choice but retire. Note that these companies are very profitable and in no danger of going out of business. It is just a fact of life right now in the US.

The bottom line is everyone needs a strategy for unplanned exit, no matter what business you are in.
As a result of the virus, my megacorp had a sizable furlough of IT workers. After about a month, the furlough was made permanent. I noted that nearly all those IT folks laid off were those dealing with legacy software. They were mostly in their 40's through late 50's - a number of veterans with up to 30 years+ of service. Not one that I saw, regardless of age; that were involved with the company's future direction, e.g. Cloud SaaS / Devops/Automation, were furloughed. And so far, we have not hired anyone to replace the departed workers, all of their functions have been outsourced.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by 7eight9 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:45 pm

The answer is to save and live below your means. Do that and you won't be scrambling to find multiple part-time jobs to survive in your 50s.

I was laid off at 53. After seven months took the only offer I received at a 50% paycut with miserable benefits.

I quit after three weeks.

Being retired was better. I recommend it.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by slyfox1357 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:07 pm

7eight9 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:45 pm
The answer is to save and live below your means. Do that and you won't be scrambling to find multiple part-time jobs to survive in your 50s.

I was laid off at 53. After seven months took the only offer I received at a 50% paycut with miserable benefits.

I quit after three weeks.

Being retired was better. I recommend it.
This!

Prepare for events like this. Age discrimination can almost never be proven.

I was 52 and was out of work for 8 months, got a comparable pay/benefits job, worked out OK. I was mostly prepared, but too early for retirement. The 8 months were hell from a mental/ psychological perspective.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by bluesky50 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:31 pm

I always wonder when there is age discrimination against 50's and over with the common belief that they are not up to their job challenge due to their health or not keeping up with changing technology/new ideas (or whatever you name it) why we do not see this age discrimination in our politicians world.

TechFI
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by TechFI » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:44 pm

I wonder if there are certainly commonalities or trends for those who lost their job in the 50s? Did you stagnate and 'get comfortable' after a while? How far did you climb the corporate ladder.

TBH, it's all quite depressing. I lost my 20s because I has a young passionate fool, only really started earning good money in my 30s, I will be saving like a mad dog in my 40s, only to get laid off in my 50s, if I'm lucky. In the best case scenario, I'm still 10 years away from FI, so hopefully that will pull through.

My plan is to keep changing jobs until I get to the most prestigious / top tier company in my field, and get promoted to at least the Director level, or the IC-equivalent of Director, but given my current situation, management is probably more feasible. I'm also not setting any upper limit of compensation I am seeking for, unlike the past, because I know the house of cards can come collapsing down and I may be without a job for the rest of my life.

Is this just naivety on my end? My current thought process is if I get laid off from the top tier company because of age I can go to other company/industries where age discrimination is not so rampant (non-tech, teaching maybe?). Also having the brand name would make me immensely hire-able. For example, it's common knowledge that Google employees are wanted everywhere. If you were working for Yahoo that would be a different story as you will be perceived as being outdated, regardless of what your actual performance or abilities are. Remember that perception and bias is key. TBH, I'm not sure if at some point age will wash out even the best brand name employer, but I suspect it will.

My other strategy to is climb the management ladder and get to at least director. The logic there is that management comes with experience, and by director-level one should be less replaceable than the average IC or even middle-managers. I've been also considering IC vs management track, and to be it seems that management would be easier to pivot to affiliated industries. For older ICs the issue is you have to compete with the youngsters, and to truly go up you have to specialize. If you specialize in the right thing, you hit the jackpot, but the moment your specialization trends downwards, you're a sitting duck.

I would be interested to know what others in these age discrimination rampant industries are doing to manage their career. Besides the financial aspects of keep saving and live below your means part that is.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by visualguy » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:55 pm

Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:38 pm
Mental decline after 50 is real for a lot of people.
Is there some study showing that? I haven't noticed that in myself or people I know. I doubt this is common other than maybe for geniuses who do their best work when relatively young. For anything that isn't genius-level, I doubt that there's such an issue. I think energy levels and the interest in pushing themselves hard for work do go down for many people (not all) with age, and are lower in their 50s than, say, in their 30s, but I don't think the issue is mental decline.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:22 pm

willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
Did you read the research paper from NBER? :mrgreen:
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by SB1234 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:23 pm

bluesky50 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:31 pm
I always wonder when there is age discrimination against 50's and over with the common belief that they are not up to their job challenge due to their health or not keeping up with changing technology/new ideas (or whatever you name it) why we do not see this age discrimination in our politicians world.
Well its obvious. The grey hair helps in preventing us from driving down a cliff. Oh Wait. :confused
anecdotes are not data

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by rob » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:41 pm

Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:11 pm
I’ve never personally seen any cases of age discrimination in my career in IT. I.e. never anybody fired or pushed out for being old.
Funny how different IT experiences are different.... Worked at one mega-mega corp who went on a tear... The many rounds of layoffs were VERY deliberate in going after older workers - they would never call it that obviously but it was very very clear. Reorgs to move younger people to different groups or different reporting managers that made no sense until the entire group could be made redundant a few months later, specific locations removed etc. Added a lot of college grads at the same time.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 pm

Do you think they were targeting old people for being old? Or do you think they were targeting "expensive people"? Or were they perhaps targeting people who just weren't cutting it anymore, but were not "fireably " bad at their jobs?

If it was just about age, then these people would be able to go out into the market and find good jobs at similar salaries.

I hired into IBM in the early 90s. At that point, IBM had never had a single layoff, ever. And things started going bad for them, and they started doing layoffs. And it was very educational and very sad for me to watch it happen. A lot of the senior engineers had only worked for IBM. All their investments were in IBM stock. And they were banking on a fat retirement, comprised of their IBM pension, the portfolio of IBM stock, and the great dividends the stock was paying.

All at once, the company hit hard times. The stock plummeted in value. They slashed the dividends. And they started laying people off. And the people that got laid off were all in their 50s, and didn't have any skills that anybody else in the market wanted. (World class APL developer, anyone?). And so I learned early in my career, do not assume you can work forever. And do not let yourself become like those people, where complacency leads you a place of extreme vulnerability.

In my company and environment, there is no particular incentive to get rid of people due to age. We don't offer a pension; so no savings there. I suppose they contribute a bit to the overall health care cost plan depending on what pool we are in; but nothing super huge. So for us, it just always comes down to "are you contributing as much as we are paying you?" Sometimes people become "the guy" on an important program and they stay there for 2 decades, and make huge money. But if something happens to that program, if the industry doesn't want it or need it anymore, they're very vulnerable.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by stoptothink » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:25 pm

Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 pm
Do you think they were targeting old people for being old? Or do you think they were targeting "expensive people"? Or were they perhaps targeting people who just weren't cutting it anymore, but were not "fireably " bad at their jobs?

If it was just about age, then these people would be able to go out into the market and find good jobs at similar salaries.
No point in adding my anecdotes, but these questions easily explain every "ageism" claim I've ever heard.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by jmw » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:28 pm

When I was in my 20s in IT, I thought nearly all of the folks in their 50s were dinosaurs that needed to be eliminated. They could not or would not learn anything new. They wanted to do things the old way. Now that I'm nearing the 50s, I can freely admit I'm a dinosaur too that is not motivated to learn new things anymore. I don't have any mental decline. I even have a degree in CS and math. I just don't care anymore. I can fake it to make it for now. The kids in their 20s and 30s that graduated with CS are a lot smarter than the 20-somethings I worked with decades ago. My best skills are in areas that the market doesn't find that valuable anymore.

The dinosaurs in the 90s did not realize they were worthless. At least I can admit I'm an old T-rex and see what's coming. That being said, I won't resign or quit unless offered a package.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:13 pm

CyclingDuo wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:22 pm
willthrill81 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:00 pm
I agree that BHs seem to overestimate the prevalence of age discrimination. And yes, it definitely seems to be more common in tech than many other industries.
Did you read the research paper from NBER? :mrgreen:
From that paper, the number of ADEA cases reported to the EEOC, roughly 23k in 2006, was much lower than even I thought there would be.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:27 pm

visualguy wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:55 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:38 pm
Mental decline after 50 is real for a lot of people.
Is there some study showing that? I haven't noticed that in myself or people I know. I doubt this is common other than maybe for geniuses who do their best work when relatively young. For anything that isn't genius-level, I doubt that there's such an issue. I think energy levels and the interest in pushing themselves hard for work do go down for many people (not all) with age, and are lower in their 50s than, say, in their 30s, but I don't think the issue is mental decline.
There is empirical evidence suggesting that cognitive declines do tend to occur before age 60. The NIH article below is worth perusing.
Figure 2 reveals that there were significant negative relations between age and several different types of cognitive measures for healthy educated adults ranging from 18 to 60 years of age. Furthermore, additional analyses revealed that the age relations were not attributable to a variety of plausible confounding variables. These results, together with similar findings in many other studies, clearly establish the existence of cross-sectional age-related declines for many cognitive variables prior to age 60.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... %2C%201988).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by flaccidsteele » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:32 pm

SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
If a worker is over 50, odds are that the decision to leave a job won’t be the employee’s idea

If You’re Over 50, Chances Are the Decision to Leave a Job Won’t be Yours
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:45 pm

bogledogle wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:17 pm
CyclingDuo wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:34 am

Example: the manager - with one side of her head shaved, and the half with hair in multiple colors as well as various pierced holes and things on her face and up and down her ears - used the word "vibe" and "awesome" a total of 10 times within the 10 minute interview.

....... and her main concern she kept raising was if I would be able to lift up to 50 pounds. Without using any words like "vibe", "totally", or "awesome", I informed her it wouldn't be a problem. I mentioned my warm up lifts for dead lifts and squats every week start with reps of 165 pounds, and then I move up into the 200's.
Yikes!

For someone who claims discrimination based on age, this is a pretty discriminatory way to describe a person. As someone who uses words like "totally" and "awesome" and "vibe", along with other words that appear in a dictionary, it would be very unpleasant to have to work with someone like you as a colleague in this day and age.
If you read what I wrote immediately following the portion of my post that you copied, you would see that I was using it as an example to point out how sheltered I had been in a culture of professors in academia in a small town, and living in the world as a professional classic musician in Europe (speaking and working in German for many, many years) and the States prior to that over the decades.

...it was a wake up call to reality of what I was about to face outside of the academic environment and being age 56 at the time.

I started reading, practicing, taking notes, and hunkered down to improve my resume, my interviewing skills, my connections, and became a little more selective in exactly what I was applying for while on unemployment. There were quite a few other similar interviews with their own unique oddities compared to what I have been used to in years past within the performing arts and academia disciplines, but the point being it was a reality check for me to learn - even in the midst of all the woes that come with a layoff - a new direction.


I've since learned to fist bump, elbow bump, and be absolutely accepting of personal grooming choices and lingo that I seemingly had not spent time around the prior three decades, or was not tuned into it. Chalk it up to living in a small town, teaching at a small religious private college, spending way too many hours reading books, writing, and hanging out with other professors the prior 15 years where the culture was a tad different. That being said, I did grow up in the 60's and 70's, lived in NYC, major cities in Europe, Houston, and San Francisco - so have seen plenty over the years. Just illustrating what it felt like when being yanked out of the 15 year cocoon I was obviously living in at the time.

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"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by palanzo » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:52 pm

beyou wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:47 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:11 pm
Keep in mind, the SCOTUS has ruled on this before. The laws against age discrimination cut a very narrow swath.

I’ve never personally seen any cases of age discrimination in my career in IT. I.e. never anybody fired or pushed out for being old.

I have seen lots of cases though of older workers getting pushed out because they couldn’t pull their weight anymore. That’s a combination of decades long wage growth combined with stale/diminishing skill sets, desire to coast, etc. age discrimation laws don’t protect you from this.

I’ve seen this so much, for so long, that I personally planned everything out so that I wouldn’t need to be employed past the age of fifty. The salary is great, but don’t count on it lasting until you are 70.
Well I have been in IT for 3 decades and managed many people. People of all ages can coast. You see people with 10 years working but 2 years experience equivalent, repeating same tasks with same skills over and over. You can find people in 50s learning latest tech. The real issue here is salary and health. Few people in 50s have the same health they once had, and few are paid like someone in their 20s. That said, frankly in my 50s with all my experience, I can accomplish things more quickly and get to better end result. Yes a younger person may work more hours but not get more done, not comparing people who apply themselves throughout their career.

You need to be ruthless about making money and saving it when you if you live in the US or anyplace with similar economic models. You need to be ready for
the fact that our govt provides retirement safety nets at 65 but allows your employer to get rid of you at 55. Expect to spend alot from 55 to 65.
Best reason I ever heard to live in Europe.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm

SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
No one's suggesting to not plan for a reasonable retirement age. One doesn't need to be lucky to hit 62, 65, FRA, 70.

I am suggesting no one must plan to retire by 50, 55 or even 60.
Even the typical tech sector employee should be able to reasonably plan for a "SS retirement age", 62-70.

*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by flaccidsteele » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:18 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated.
Health and Retirement Study Data since 1992 disagrees

Link to study here
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by rob » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:23 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:25 pm
Normchad wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:17 pm
Do you think they were targeting old people for being old? Or do you think they were targeting "expensive people"? Or were they perhaps targeting people who just weren't cutting it anymore, but were not "fireably " bad at their jobs?

If it was just about age, then these people would be able to go out into the market and find good jobs at similar salaries.
No point in adding my anecdotes, but these questions easily explain every "ageism" claim I've ever heard.
Some combination of above I assume - no doubt they were more expensive resources than grads and a widget is always equal to another widget I suppose.... I cannot speak to all but of the ones I knew; Most did go out and find a job - although it took time... Some retired.... Some moved to other things...

Maybe you're right... maybe it does not exist and what I saw was for other reasons.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by SB1234 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
No one's suggesting to not plan for a reasonable retirement age. One doesn't need to be lucky to hit 62, 65, FRA, 70.

I am suggesting no one must plan to retire by 50, 55 or even 60.
Even the typical tech sector employee should be able to reasonably plan for a "SS retirement age", 62-70.

*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.
No one is suggesting you should plan to retire by 50. But by 50 you should be on the trajectory to meet your retirement goals even on a reduced income. That reduced income may be because of anything e.g ageism, health issues, industry disruptions etc. Assuming you will be employed at your desired earning potential is not a good plan. I hope the subtlety is clear.

Oh and if after 50 your not affected, you can easily ramp up your spending because you will a have a lot saved already. 50 is the new whatever.
Last edited by SB1234 on Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
anecdotes are not data

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:27 pm

SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
No one's suggesting to not plan for a reasonable retirement age. One doesn't need to be lucky to hit 62, 65, FRA, 70.

I am suggesting no one must plan to retire by 50, 55 or even 60.
Even the typical tech sector employee should be able to reasonably plan for a "SS retirement age", 62-70.

*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.
No one is suggesting you should plan to retire by 50. But by 50 you should be on the trajectory to meet your retirement goals even on a reduced income. That reduced income may be because of anything e.g ageism, health issues, industry disruptions etc. Assuming you will be employed at your desired earning potential is not a good plan. I hope the subtlety is clear.
That subtlety was vacant in your previous post.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:43 pm

flaccidsteele wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:18 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated.
Health and Retirement Study Data since 1992 disagrees

Link to study here
It's an interesting article.

I'm curious how much of the retirement aspect is based upon workers unwilling to accept lower pay and/or able to retire.

As one declines mentally and physically and are unable to produce at previous compensated levels should they expect to retain employment/compensation at similar levels? The article itself notes some of their statistics exist here.

I don't doubt age discrimination is legitimate.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by SnowBog » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 pm

gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:27 pm
SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:59 am
I know plenty of engineers in their 50s and well into 60s, making appropriate pay for that age (read high), who work for 1,000; 5,000; 10;000-person and bigger firms. I don't know of anyone who's been laid off strategically with age in mind.

I'm not, at all, suggesting it doesn't happen. I'm certain it would be incredibly difficult to negotiate that kind of environment.

Boglehead's forum culture seems to suggest it's an inevitability. I'm sure it's somewhere in between.

It's certainly possible it's industry related and may be far more common in tech than physical engineering???
It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
No one's suggesting to not plan for a reasonable retirement age. One doesn't need to be lucky to hit 62, 65, FRA, 70.

I am suggesting no one must plan to retire by 50, 55 or even 60.
Even the typical tech sector employee should be able to reasonably plan for a "SS retirement age", 62-70.

*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.
No one is suggesting you should plan to retire by 50. But by 50 you should be on the trajectory to meet your retirement goals even on a reduced income. That reduced income may be because of anything e.g ageism, health issues, industry disruptions etc. Assuming you will be employed at your desired earning potential is not a good plan. I hope the subtlety is clear.
That subtlety was vacant in your previous post.
I'm 44, I work in a tech field, I fully expect that I will not be continously employed until FRA. I've seen far too many people 50+ "leave" my organization - and not by their choice - to expect anything else.

And while I'm sure I could find another job, I'm not convinced it would be at the same earning range, benefits, etc.
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.
So I must disagree. My plan is heavily focused on this assumption. If I'm wrong, the worst is I end up saving too much money and can decide to retire early. I'll take that option vs. the alternative...

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:57 pm

SnowBog wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:27 pm
SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 pm
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
SB1234 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:18 pm

It's not a inevitability. But paraphrasing someone who posts very passionately "planning on being lucky is not a good plan"
No one's suggesting to not plan for a reasonable retirement age. One doesn't need to be lucky to hit 62, 65, FRA, 70.

I am suggesting no one must plan to retire by 50, 55 or even 60.
Even the typical tech sector employee should be able to reasonably plan for a "SS retirement age", 62-70.

*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.
No one is suggesting you should plan to retire by 50. But by 50 you should be on the trajectory to meet your retirement goals even on a reduced income. That reduced income may be because of anything e.g ageism, health issues, industry disruptions etc. Assuming you will be employed at your desired earning potential is not a good plan. I hope the subtlety is clear.
That subtlety was vacant in your previous post.
I'm 44, I work in a tech field, I fully expect that I will not be continously employed until FRA. I've seen far too many people 50+ "leave" my organization - and not by their choice - to expect anything else.

And while I'm sure I could find another job, I'm not convinced it would be at the same earning range, benefits, etc.
gr7070 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:13 pm
*Expecting* to be unemployed and forced "retirement" by sub-60 is likely silly, and almost certainly overstated. Can it happen? Sure. Is it as common as suggested here; I'm certain it is not.

There's essentially zero need to plan for that.
So I must disagree. My plan is heavily focused on this assumption. If I'm wrong, the worst is I end up saving too much money and can decide to retire early. I'll take that option vs. the alternative...
Yep. The data from the original post, is very compelling.

58% of people will experience a major job disruption after the age of 50. Virtually all of them will suffer a serious financial setback. Only 10% will find work that pays equal to what they were making before.

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beyou
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by beyou » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:25 pm

Your lifetime earnings are what matters. Wouldn’t we all like to make a pro sports salary and retire at 30 ?
I’ll take my above avg wages and happily be forced out in my 50s. As long as you plan for it.

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Hub
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Hub » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:23 am

I work in commercial banking. Loan officers that can produce are good to go from age 50-60 at their current bank or a new bank. Admittedly I’ve know few much older than 60. The ones that struggle to find a new gig are the ones that achieve a branch or market president level and then lose their job. With bank mergers this is obviously common. The others that would probably claim age discrimination are the ones that were never very good producers and hopped banks too many times through their 40s. A 50+ yr old applicant for lender that doesn’t look like a low risk hire is likely going to struggle finding a spot.

My plan: FI by 45-50. Switch to a simple producer role at much lower pay where I can easily produce enough to pay my way while not being bothered with details like attendance so long as I hit my numbers. I think this gig is out there in a more rural area where they’ll be glad to have my big city commercial banking experience.

bltn
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by bltn » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:39 am

Harry Livermore wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:22 pm
visualguy wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:40 pm
anoop wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:06 pm
Resurrecting an old thread since I came across a relevant article with some interesting stats.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/holdi ... 2020-02-07
Believe it or not, as you can see from the accompanying chart, they found that more than half of workers “experience an employer-related involuntary job separation after age 50 that substantially reduces earnings for years or leads to long-term unemployment.”
If I'm interpreting the chart correctly, it looks like < 20% make it to where they are still working at age 65.

This is something that has been on my mind a lot recently (I will be 50 this year) because I'm seeing a lot of people losing their jobs and remaining unemployed for extended periods -- individual contributor to SVP level.
Being an employee in your 50s in a career that doesn't have strong job security has always been a frightening situation if you didn't already have enough for a reasonable retirement. The economy is relatively good now, so as problematic as it is now for such people, it's a lot worse during recessions. You either need to plan to build a large-enough retirement portfolio before you reach that age, or work in one of the (relatively few) jobs with excellent job security, or be your own boss.
Ditto. This happened to my dad in the late 1980's, just as I was finishing college and the other 3 siblings were in the thick of it. It put quite a strain on my parents financially, and ultimately my dad never quite recovered, professionally or emotionally. It was a sobering lesson for me. While I am self-employed, so technically not subject to a "layoff", I have watched trends in my industry very carefully and noted threats to my livelihood. In short, it's the same thing as others here have expressed. Younger folks are doing the same work much cheaper. And while I have serious doubts that these younger folks will ever own a home, send kids to college without debt, or even retire, they sure seem excited to be in my industry, charging half what I charge.
Luckily for me, I had 8 extremely good years from 2008-2015, fully funded the Keough, put cash in the taxable, and was able to buy a larger home while keeping our old residence as a rental. If my wife and I are careful, we can easily get all three kids through college debt-free and downsize into a secure retirement. If I can look back and be proud of any money moves in my life, it's that I had the discipline to put the money away and not buy a bunch of fun toys. I'm also lucky to have a spouse on the same page.
Kids, start saving from Day One. Many of you will be chucked to the curb as soon as you are "too old" and "too expensive" (though no employer will ever be honest enough to say this) And you may be surprised how young "too old" is, and how NOT expensive "too expensive" is...
Cheers
There are advantages and disadvantages of being self employed. As a former small business owner, I know that I much preferred being in control of my job and work life, even if people with similar jobs employed by big companies might have made more money and worked fewer hours. I never had to worry about being officially fired, though I could have been informally “fired” if I made poor decisions and my company went out of business.
Accumulating money starting early in one s career is the best way to provide one and his family with the security we need. I m recommending to my kids that they strive to save 25-40% of their income. Tax deferred plans should be maximized, but after tax savings is equally important to provide ones life with some financial strength prior to retirement.

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