Losing a job in your 50's...

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Wannaretireearly
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Wannaretireearly »

My dream is to say FU when/if I get laid off in my 50s, & book a flight to Hawaii to 'decompress' :D

Step 1 is paying off my mortgage by 2023
Step 2 is not paying for private school anymore, hopefully by 2025! :annoyed
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
nigel_ht
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:40 am
familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:05 am OP,

I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.

KlangFool
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
nigel_ht,

Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.

I am laid off and my kids are going to college. I have 200K to 300K in 529 and 200K to 300K in my retirement account. I cannot afford to pay fo the college but my money is stuck in the 529. What am I supposed to do now?


KlangFool
Community college 2 years, 2 years state university. LBYM applies to changed economic circumstances all around...

$200-300K should let them finish at a state school even if not all credits transfer if they have already started. Dorms may be out and they may need to commute from home if that’s close enough to school.

If you remain out of work then your income changes and reapply for financial aid.

I don’t understand the assertion that you can’t afford to pay for college with $200-300K saved.
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm
KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:40 am
familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:05 am OP,

I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.

KlangFool
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
nigel_ht,

Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.

I am laid off and my kids are going to college. I have 200K to 300K in 529 and 200K to 300K in my retirement account. I cannot afford to pay fo the college but my money is stuck in the 529. What am I supposed to do now?


KlangFool
Community college 2 years, 2 years state university. LBYM applies to changed economic circumstances all around...

$200-300K should let them finish at a state school even if not all credits transfer if they have already started. Dorms may be out and they may need to commute from home if that’s close enough to school.

If you remain out of work then your income changes and reapply for financial aid.

I don’t understand the assertion that you can’t afford to pay for college with $200-300K saved.
nigel_ht,

Can a person retire in the 40s and 50s with 200K to 300K? Or, 400K to 600K? The person is permanently unemployed or under-employed.

KlangFool
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:34 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:20 amHaving now experienced three years of what the adjunct teaching world and pay is like without any benefits - there appears to be some room for a bit of reform within that segment of the academic community. :shock:
For the benefit of others who may be reading this, adjuncts are usually in the most tenuous teaching position possible in higher ed. Typically, they only work from one semester/quarter to the next with no contract at all and very often with no benefits whatsoever unless they are teaching enough courses to qualify for benefits. And at many institutions, they are employed solely at the discretion of the chair of the department in which they teach. The amount that they are paid is often a pittance, especially in comparison to full-time faculty. Consequently, many administrators love adjuncts because they are relatively cheap and can be 'kicked to the curb' easily and quickly, unlike full-time faculty, and in many disciplines, the number of tenured faculty have been waning for years, while the number of adjunct faculty have been increasing. Accrediting bodies are generally not favorable to 'excessive' use of adjuncts, and that has been one of the few reasons why many institutions have not moved almost entirely toward using primarily adjuncts, though some have done just that.
Bingo!

Actually, if I had been older and officially retired from my former full time position, still living in the community and taking on an occasional class here or there on an as needed basis, I think it would have been an ideal situation. There is something to be said for the ability to create a little sense of purpose, a little bit of extra income, and for the social and mental engagement in one's 60's. Plenty of older colleagues who had retired from their long and distinguished teaching careers who remained in our town/area had been doing just that in quite a few departments on campus - in their 60's as well as some in their 70's. Maybe a logic class here, a philosophy class there, a beginning German class here, a music history class there, etc.. depending on one's specific discipline and the department's needs.

However, that's a different take compared to those who are younger and still trying to piece together an annual living during the accumulation years taking on adjunct positions. What you describe is indeed the model that is being used by schools and departments to keep costs low, yet remain accredited. I've been pleased to piece together what I could up to this point over the past three years. It's been enough to at least release some of the pressure I was feeling and get us through three more years of saving. At least all of the faculty committee work, governance, reviews, and participation that did take up a lot of time and energy have not been a part of the past three years with the pay level of an adjunct. I'm not sure we call that a benefit when speaking of adjunct positions, but it is worth mentioning and why there is quite a different level of remuneration.

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel | "Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
alexL
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by alexL »

Thanks for sharing. Must always be prepared.
nigel_ht
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:31 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm
KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:40 am
familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm

I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
nigel_ht,

Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.

I am laid off and my kids are going to college. I have 200K to 300K in 529 and 200K to 300K in my retirement account. I cannot afford to pay fo the college but my money is stuck in the 529. What am I supposed to do now?


KlangFool
Community college 2 years, 2 years state university. LBYM applies to changed economic circumstances all around...

$200-300K should let them finish at a state school even if not all credits transfer if they have already started. Dorms may be out and they may need to commute from home if that’s close enough to school.

If you remain out of work then your income changes and reapply for financial aid.

I don’t understand the assertion that you can’t afford to pay for college with $200-300K saved.
nigel_ht,

Can a person retire in the 40s and 50s with 200K to 300K? Or, 400K to 600K? The person is permanently unemployed or under-employed.

KlangFool
If you only have $600K saved and have to prematurely FIRE then $18K a year is pretty tight to live on. You'll have to downsize quickly and hopefully find some kind of side hustle. 529's and retirement funds are both excluded from asset calculations for SNAP...if you are permanently unemployed it would be a wash. Pay off your house and try to get to zero.

What will you do with your kids in your alternative? Kick them out? Or is the better course of action to get them an education (or finish one) so they have the means to help you out? If nothing else they could repay you the amount that was spent.
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:37 am
KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:31 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm
KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:40 am

Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
nigel_ht,

Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.

I am laid off and my kids are going to college. I have 200K to 300K in 529 and 200K to 300K in my retirement account. I cannot afford to pay fo the college but my money is stuck in the 529. What am I supposed to do now?


KlangFool
Community college 2 years, 2 years state university. LBYM applies to changed economic circumstances all around...

$200-300K should let them finish at a state school even if not all credits transfer if they have already started. Dorms may be out and they may need to commute from home if that’s close enough to school.

If you remain out of work then your income changes and reapply for financial aid.

I don’t understand the assertion that you can’t afford to pay for college with $200-300K saved.
nigel_ht,

Can a person retire in the 40s and 50s with 200K to 300K? Or, 400K to 600K? The person is permanently unemployed or under-employed.

KlangFool
If you only have $600K saved and have to prematurely FIRE then $18K a year is pretty tight to live on. You'll have to downsize quickly and hopefully find some kind of side hustle. 529's and retirement funds are both excluded from asset calculations for SNAP...if you are permanently unemployed it would be a wash. Pay off your house and try to get to zero.

What will you do with your kids in your alternative? Kick them out? Or is the better course of action to get them an education (or finish one) so they have the means to help you out? If nothing else they could repay you the amount that was spent.
The point is you cannot pay for college. Or, are you recommending that the parents still spend 300K on college education?
The kids should take a student loan.

KlangFool
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nigel_ht
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:41 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:37 am
KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:31 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm
KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 am

nigel_ht,

Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.

I am laid off and my kids are going to college. I have 200K to 300K in 529 and 200K to 300K in my retirement account. I cannot afford to pay fo the college but my money is stuck in the 529. What am I supposed to do now?


KlangFool
Community college 2 years, 2 years state university. LBYM applies to changed economic circumstances all around...

$200-300K should let them finish at a state school even if not all credits transfer if they have already started. Dorms may be out and they may need to commute from home if that’s close enough to school.

If you remain out of work then your income changes and reapply for financial aid.

I don’t understand the assertion that you can’t afford to pay for college with $200-300K saved.
nigel_ht,

Can a person retire in the 40s and 50s with 200K to 300K? Or, 400K to 600K? The person is permanently unemployed or under-employed.

KlangFool
If you only have $600K saved and have to prematurely FIRE then $18K a year is pretty tight to live on. You'll have to downsize quickly and hopefully find some kind of side hustle. 529's and retirement funds are both excluded from asset calculations for SNAP...if you are permanently unemployed it would be a wash. Pay off your house and try to get to zero.

What will you do with your kids in your alternative? Kick them out? Or is the better course of action to get them an education (or finish one) so they have the means to help you out? If nothing else they could repay you the amount that was spent.
The point is you cannot pay for college. Or, are you recommending that the parents still spend 300K on college education?

KlangFool
Yes. You still use what's in 529s for college. That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track. It is also the highest probability of a positive outcome for yourself unless you think the kids will abandon you.

You can't really afford not to send your kids to college in this scenario....it doesn't really matter whether the money sits in a 529 or a 401K. Spend less than $300K if you can using some of the strategies I listed above but the only way out of this scenario is to maximize the potential human capital in your kids.

This is why many immigrant parents work so hard get their kids into college. Unless you are disabled you aren't "permanently unemployed" and under-employed still makes money. There are many very educated immigrant parents that were doctors or other highly skilled workers and are working menial jobs in the US.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/07/04/health/l ... index.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business ... story.html

What? You think they aren't prioritizing sending their kids to college? Do you think they want their kids to be stuck with the same work options they now have?
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:12 am

Yes. You still use what's in 529s for college. That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track. It is also the highest probability of a positive outcome for yourself unless you think the kids will abandon you.

You can't really afford not to send your kids to college in this scenario....it doesn't really matter whether the money sits in a 529 or a 401K. Spend less than $300K if you can using some of the strategies I listed above but the only way out of this scenario is to maximize the potential human capital in your kids.
nigel_ht,

In summary, you believe that even if the parents have to lose their house and live on the street and starve, they should still pay for a college education. I disagreed.


A reasonable person will let the kid take the student loan.

<<That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track.>>

If the ROI is there, the kids can take a student loan. The parents need the money to feed the family.


The kids can borrow for college education. The parent cannot borrow for retirement.

KlangFool
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getthatmarshmallow
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:28 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:34 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:20 amHaving now experienced three years of what the adjunct teaching world and pay is like without any benefits - there appears to be some room for a bit of reform within that segment of the academic community. :shock:
For the benefit of others who may be reading this, adjuncts are usually in the most tenuous teaching position possible in higher ed. Typically, they only work from one semester/quarter to the next with no contract at all and very often with no benefits whatsoever unless they are teaching enough courses to qualify for benefits. And at many institutions, they are employed solely at the discretion of the chair of the department in which they teach. The amount that they are paid is often a pittance, especially in comparison to full-time faculty. Consequently, many administrators love adjuncts because they are relatively cheap and can be 'kicked to the curb' easily and quickly, unlike full-time faculty, and in many disciplines, the number of tenured faculty have been waning for years, while the number of adjunct faculty have been increasing. Accrediting bodies are generally not favorable to 'excessive' use of adjuncts, and that has been one of the few reasons why many institutions have not moved almost entirely toward using primarily adjuncts, though some have done just that.
Bingo!

Actually, if I had been older and officially retired from my former full time position, still living in the community and taking on an occasional class here or there on an as needed basis, I think it would have been an ideal situation. There is something to be said for the ability to create a little sense of purpose, a little bit of extra income, and for the social and mental engagement in one's 60's. Plenty of older colleagues who had retired from their long and distinguished teaching careers who remained in our town/area had been doing just that in quite a few departments on campus - in their 60's as well as some in their 70's. Maybe a logic class here, a philosophy class there, a beginning German class here, a music history class there, etc.. depending on one's specific discipline and the department's needs.

However, that's a different take compared to those who are younger and still trying to piece together an annual living during the accumulation years taking on adjunct positions. What you describe is indeed the model that is being used by schools and departments to keep costs low, yet remain accredited. I've been pleased to piece together what I could up to this point over the past three years. It's been enough to at least release some of the pressure I was feeling and get us through three more years of saving. At least all of the faculty committee work, governance, reviews, and participation that did take up a lot of time and energy have not been a part of the past three years with the pay level of an adjunct. I'm not sure we call that a benefit when speaking of adjunct positions, but it is worth mentioning and why there is quite a different level of remuneration.

CyclingDuo
I have many older colleagues - one in his 90s - who teach as adjuncts for just those reasons you mention in the first paragraph. It gets them out of the house, keeps them intellectually engaged, and allows them a little 'fun' money. One of them is using his adjunct income to help endow a scholarship fund.

But 100% agreement with your second paragraph. My personal 'walk away from the academy line' was if I had to adjunct (and I graduated into the hiring freeze of 2009-2011, so it wasn't an idle thought.)
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HomerJ »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:12 am

Yes. You still use what's in 529s for college. That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track. It is also the highest probability of a positive outcome for yourself unless you think the kids will abandon you.

You can't really afford not to send your kids to college in this scenario....it doesn't really matter whether the money sits in a 529 or a 401K. Spend less than $300K if you can using some of the strategies I listed above but the only way out of this scenario is to maximize the potential human capital in your kids.
nigel_ht,

In summary, you believe that even if the parents have to lose their house and live on the street and starve, they should still pay for a college education. I disagreed.
That's not what he said.

I agree that people should prioritize retirement savings over college savings. I agree that the kids can get loans if hard times hit the family.

No one is going to starve on the streets.

Plenty of jobs out there if one stops being so prideful, and does what has to be done.
"The best tools available to us are shovels, not scalpels. Don't get carried away." - vanBogle59
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

HomerJ wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:37 am
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:12 am

Yes. You still use what's in 529s for college. That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track. It is also the highest probability of a positive outcome for yourself unless you think the kids will abandon you.

You can't really afford not to send your kids to college in this scenario....it doesn't really matter whether the money sits in a 529 or a 401K. Spend less than $300K if you can using some of the strategies I listed above but the only way out of this scenario is to maximize the potential human capital in your kids.
nigel_ht,

In summary, you believe that even if the parents have to lose their house and live on the street and starve, they should still pay for a college education. I disagreed.
That's not what he said.

I agree that people should prioritize retirement savings over college savings. I agree that the kids can get loans if hard times hit the family.

No one is going to starve on the streets.

Plenty of jobs out there if one stops being so prideful, and does what has to be done.
HomerJ,


Do you agree with that poster, "nigel_ht" that if someone is unemployed in 40s/50s and only have 600K (300K in Retirement + 300K in 529), the person should still pay for college education instead of taking a student loan?


KlangFool
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MindBogler
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by MindBogler »

Paying for your children's college education is what I would consider a luxury item. Kids have many options: community college, loans, work summers/nights, GI Bill, etc. They have the luxury of time and human capital. If your retirement savings is behind then you do not have the same. Only fund college education if your own goals are on track.
mnnice
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by mnnice »

CyclingDuo wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
Nail hit squarely on the head!

That's the main take away anyone reading this thread years from now via a search should heed. I haven't really looked back to the 1980's and early 1990's to see if it was different or the same for workers in the age 50-62 range, but the message certainly was not being telegraphed to me when I started my career in the 1980's to make plans to be FI by age 50 and get ready for what could happen in your 50's. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Regardless, we've plowed ahead since 2018 and kept on track now that I have entered my third year of OMY.

CyclingDuo
Your Money or Your Life was published in 1993. I think I read it in 1994 about the same time I finished college. DH and I semi-retired in 2014 in our mid 40’s. Anyway I think there was some cultural awareness of FI concepts but much less than now.

I reject the idea that people with middle class incomes and children can’t achieve early retirement. You do probably need high average income, healthy non-disabled offspring (probably just one or two), and frugal natures. You don’t need inheritances, stock options, or other major windfalls. You do need to tune out many of the cultural expectations.
Ramjet
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Ramjet »

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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:45 am I have many older colleagues - one in his 90s - who teach as adjuncts for just those reasons you mention in the first paragraph. It gets them out of the house, keeps them intellectually engaged, and allows them a little 'fun' money. One of them is using his adjunct income to help endow a scholarship fund.
To me - that all seems ideal!

Getting back to my thoughts on at least what my parents and my in-laws did during their ages between 60-80+, they all did some type of a little something-something - more for the intellectual stimulation, social interaction, etc... than the financial benefits. My father did set up a scholarship fund (that is still going gang busters thanks to the inclusion of a family producing oil well that he gifted the university) for aspiring ministers/youth pastors at a major university with a chunk of his retirement money. He also continued to preside over weddings and funerals as well as fill in at the pulpit for local ministers who were on vacation. He actually did that up until a few months before he passed as it kept him occupied and engaged - especially the decade after my mother had passed. In terms of continuing to do a little something-something for the stimulation/challenge/purpose, ditto with the in-laws. It was not about the money for them, but more about the other benefits of keeping engaged on a more limited level.

I would expect my wife and I may migrate to something similar in our final two decades.
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:45 amBut 100% agreement with your second paragraph. My personal 'walk away from the academy line' was if I had to adjunct (and I graduated into the hiring freeze of 2009-2011, so it wasn't an idle thought.)
Understood. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I came to academia later in my career (in my 40's) after two decades of professional performing - and entered it as it was already ramping up before the peak with the Millennials. So I was already onboarded years before you graduated (started in the 2003-04 academic year). The growth in the student body as well as the faculty/staff was what it was at the time - rather stunning. Until it wasn't. I had not really done my due diligence regarding demographics at the time I made the move into academia in terms of the full ramifications and what the implications could mean for longevity. I do remember that at the time I only applied at three places and they all gave me a job offer as the demand was high at the time.

I certainly became well acquainted with demographics as the years progressed and it was a common topic from time to time in general faculty meetings during the ramp up as the adjustments were made on the way up as well as the way down. I also was the third person to hold the position I filled as the first was forced to leave after three years due to improprieties, the second was asked to leave after two years, and I was the third to hold the position until it - along with others - was terminated 15 years later. I knew at the time that I was entering already 5 years into the growth ramp up of the Millennial surge, but as I said - wasn't aware of the demographics regarding longevity as I was more focused on taking a job at a well established, well known program with a 50+ year solid tradition. And of course, we all know the last batch of Millennials graduated in 2018 (no surprise - in retrospect - that was the same year my position and as well as many others were cut).

The demographic trend certainly has impacted most institutions in academia. Enter the use of adjuncts to fill a lot of the gaps at lower cost until the tide of demographics turns again when the children of Millennials enter college known as Generation Alpha (started in 2010) and will probably stretch to those born up until 2025 or so. Could be that academia will start to see a surge once again starting in 2028 that lasts in some shape or form until around 2043.

There will be a need for adjuncts that the retired professor crowd can fill, and will continue to provide the benefit of some stimulation for them as well as a little extra income. As one of the younger Baby Boomers, my age simply didn't line up well with the demographic trend for me to make it all the way through the Millennial trend as well as beyond at the particular institution where I was employed - at least in terms of what I had originally thought of as a retirement age in my 60's for that job. I simply didn't make it through the "beyond". However, as the thread purpose highlights - in addition to preparing for such matters, one adapts and adjusts as best they can.

Side Note Addition: I did spend time studying demographics and trends as well as the particular corporate behavior towards employees of various ages before taking the current job in technology as I wanted to make sure it was not going to end up being a short-lived position - probably more for my sanity and peace of mind. So far so good whether I also continue on with any adjunct work or not. Being able to string together the past three years of replacement income to match what I was making in the former full time teaching position - even though it has involved 7 days per week of working during the academic calendar months - has been a large glob of the salve that was needed to round out our saving goals during our empty nest years.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:12 am

Yes. You still use what's in 529s for college. That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track. It is also the highest probability of a positive outcome for yourself unless you think the kids will abandon you.

You can't really afford not to send your kids to college in this scenario....it doesn't really matter whether the money sits in a 529 or a 401K. Spend less than $300K if you can using some of the strategies I listed above but the only way out of this scenario is to maximize the potential human capital in your kids.
nigel_ht,

In summary, you believe that even if the parents have to lose their house and live on the street and starve, they should still pay for a college education. I disagreed.

A reasonable person will let the kid take the student loan.
Getting a loan is a good option. You added that after which is fine. Joining the military is also fine. But however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.

If you have $600K in investments, even if $300K is locked in 529's, you aren't likely to lose the house and live on the street before you can sell the house and downsize.

The difference in the two scenarios is you lose $30K in penalty for the 529's. In the event that you can use some of the 529 money for textbooks and housing that isn't covered by other means it would be less.
<<That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track.>>

If the ROI is there, the kids can take a student loan. The parents need the money to feed the family.

The kids can borrow for college education. The parent cannot borrow for retirement.
KlangFool
The parents are more likely to be able to borrow for retirement from their kids if their kids have higher income. While the primary responsibility and obligation is from parent to child there is a corresponding filial obligation from kids to parents. Either or both can, and sometimes are, ignored but they do exist in most cultures.

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
nigel_ht,

1) Not all kids graduated from college. There is a fair amount of drop out.


2) Not all fresh graduates have a job. Many of my daughter's college mates are unemployed now.


3) Not all fresh graduates have a good job.

4) Many of the college graduates cannot support themselves and have to live at home.

5) If the college graduate cannot support themselves, they are in no position to help anyone.


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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by MindBogler »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 amDespite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).
Several friends I know chose the trades and they are all doing quite well, so I agree completely. We have advised our child that college is a starting point not a destination. Without a clear goal or plan to recoup the investment then college may be unnecessarily "going through the motions."
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:13 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
nigel_ht,

1) Not all kids graduated from college. There is a fair amount of drop out.
In recent years, only 58% of college freshmen graduated in six years. A few of the remaining 42% will eventually graduate, but many will not.

Of my four nephews and nieces, all of whom went to college, only one graduated and only after seven years, and he now works for the USPS, so his time and money spent on pursuing his degree was a complete financial waste.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Striker »

I’d have to let the kids borrow for college before potentially becoming a burden to them later. If
gainful employment was found then you could help
repay the loans, but given ageism, borrowing for
college provides more security for the family as a
whole.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

Striker wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:21 am I’d have to let the kids borrow for college before potentially becoming a burden to them later. If
gainful employment was found then you could help
repay the loans, but given ageism, borrowing for
college provides more security for the family as a
whole.
It seems to me that a relatively safe approach would be for the parent whose retirement is already well funded to cash flow college expenses from current employment. If the parent becomes unemployed or underemployed, then student loans (not parent plus loans) are a fallback option that the parent might be able to assist in repaying at a later time.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by stoptothink »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
The idea that everybody should go to college is a significant component of the education debt problem. Millions of people who college was not the best option for, told their entire life that college is the only option, are now saddled with debt and no degree. I have a 17yr old sister, all of us (mom and stepdad, all her 6 siblings) are recommending that she not go to college, at least straight out of high school. I wish some of her teachers/academic advisors would even suggest that someone who has already been held back, has worked really hard in attempt to stay eligible for sports (2.0 GPA), and has scored well below median on standardized tests should consider other options, but of course all they do is talk to her about college.

Interestingly, she's worked at Del Taco for over a year, is already a shift manager, and has saved quite a bit of money to pay for college (parents are in no position to help).
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by stoptothink »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:19 am
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:13 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
nigel_ht,

1) Not all kids graduated from college. There is a fair amount of drop out.
In recent years, only 58% of college freshmen graduated in six years. A few of the remaining 42% will eventually graduate, but many will not.

Of my four nephews and nieces, all of whom went to college, only one graduated and only after seven years, and he now works for the USPS, so his time and money spent on pursuing his degree was a complete financial waste.
I have 3 cousins (in the same family), aged 24-30 who have all been in college since high school. None have graduated and my uncle has paid every penny of their college tuition. Not to mention, two of them are married (one still living in my uncle's home with her husband).
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
Yes, medicine, law, STEM and business and not a useless (from the perspective of earning money) degree. Education is the silver bullet to poverty...and the expectation of immigrant families that work very hard to get their kids there don't have the expectation that they will get a degree in Italian poetry. Because that would be epically stupid.

The unemployable 50 year olds in the scenario need to have that same immigrant mindset.

And yes, if your kid wants to be a electrician or other good paying trade that works too if you can find them a path. High schools don't really teach those anymore which means you need to be able to get hired somewhere to learn the trade. There's no shop class anymore...but there are coding and engineering classes.

Military works too...but eventually you likely need to go to college to have a decent civ career.

But the easiest path is a 4 year comp sci, IT or a good engineering degree. Nursing is a harder career but is a 2-4 year path and you need to pass the NCLEX and likely eventually get a BSN and MSN if you just went the AA route.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:10 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
Yes, medicine, law, STEM and business and not a useless (from the perspective of earning money) degree. Education is the silver bullet to poverty...and the expectation of immigrant families that work very hard to get their kids there don't have the expectation that they will get a degree in Italian poetry. Because that would be epically stupid.

The unemployable 50 year olds in the scenario need to have that same immigrant mindset.

And yes, if your kid wants to be a electrician or other good paying trade that works too if you can find them a path. High schools don't really teach those anymore which means you need to be able to get hired somewhere to learn the trade. There's no shop class anymore...but there are coding and engineering classes.

Military works too...but eventually you likely need to go to college to have a decent civ career.

But the easiest path is a 4 year comp sci, IT or a good engineering degree. Nursing is a harder career but is a 2-4 year path and you need to pass the NCLEX and likely eventually get a BSN and MSN if you just went the AA route.
That was my point: 'going to college' alone is not sufficient, and there are other paths, such as trade schools, that can be more effective for many individuals.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:29 am
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
The idea that everybody should go to college is a significant component of the education debt problem. Millions of people who college was not the best option for, told their entire life that college is the only option, are now saddled with debt and no degree. I have a 17yr old sister, all of us (mom and stepdad, all her 6 siblings) are recommending that she not go to college, at least straight out of high school. I wish some of her teachers/academic advisors would even suggest that someone who has already been held back, has worked really hard in attempt to stay eligible for sports (2.0 GPA), and has scored well below median on standardized tests should consider other options, but of course all they do is talk to her about college.

Interestingly, she's worked at Del Taco for over a year, is already a shift manager, and has saved quite a bit of money to pay for college (parents are in no position to help).
"We've determined that 34.4% of restaurant general managers have a bachelor's degree. In terms of higher education levels, we found that 5.6% of restaurant general managers have master's degrees. Even though some restaurant general managers have a college degree, it's possible to become one with only a high school degree or GED."

https://www.zippia.com/restaurant-general-manager-jobs/

The college degree trend will likely increase given the general push for college degrees, some of which are dead ends career wise.

SHOULD she go to college? Probably not. But my wife's family is a restaurant family and that's a hard life...and as we've seen it's vulnerable to both economic downturns (less people eating out) and things like pandemics. My brother owns a restaurant that is closing. All his employees (and himself) will be unemployed.

But yes, if her academics are too weak to make it even in a community college to get an AA degree then it's not worth the time or money to do so. Far better than to go to college and THEN end up working at Del Tacos...although she may someday get edged out of a manager slot because another candidate had a degree.

However, in KlangFool's scenario...should at least one of you 7 kids go to college? Hell yes. Would you or your siblings abandon your parents afterward?

My wife primarily, due to distance from her parents, provides monetary support. Only she and one of her brothers who went to college can afford to do so. The rest work the same kind of jobs as your sister. Your sister will likely be able to take care of herself and her own family without college...just like my wife's siblings...but it IS a harder path.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:15 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:10 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
Yes, medicine, law, STEM and business and not a useless (from the perspective of earning money) degree. Education is the silver bullet to poverty...and the expectation of immigrant families that work very hard to get their kids there don't have the expectation that they will get a degree in Italian poetry. Because that would be epically stupid.

The unemployable 50 year olds in the scenario need to have that same immigrant mindset.

And yes, if your kid wants to be a electrician or other good paying trade that works too if you can find them a path. High schools don't really teach those anymore which means you need to be able to get hired somewhere to learn the trade. There's no shop class anymore...but there are coding and engineering classes.

Military works too...but eventually you likely need to go to college to have a decent civ career.

But the easiest path is a 4 year comp sci, IT or a good engineering degree. Nursing is a harder career but is a 2-4 year path and you need to pass the NCLEX and likely eventually get a BSN and MSN if you just went the AA route.
That was my point: 'going to college' alone is not sufficient, and there are other paths, such as trade schools, that can be more effective for many individuals.
Sure, but the easy path is still college for those kids who can manage to get a 4 year degree in a major that has a decent number of good paying jobs out of the gate. K-12 teacher is one of those...in the right state anyway. Alaska rather than Alabama for example...
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:13 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
nigel_ht,

1) Not all kids graduated from college. There is a fair amount of drop out.

2) Not all fresh graduates have a job. Many of my daughter's college mates are unemployed now.

3) Not all fresh graduates have a good job.

4) Many of the college graduates cannot support themselves and have to live at home.

5) If the college graduate cannot support themselves, they are in no position to help anyone.


KlangFool
Enjoy your $18K a year retirement then.

Basically you're saying a whole bunch of immigrant families are stupid for emphasizing education.

Yes, there are bad outcomes for some kids who go to college and are unable to finish or choose bad majors. Yes, you do have to assess if your child can manage to graduate.

The bad outcomes you list are no different between self funding college or using a loan except that you are paying down college debt that is difficult for even bankruptcy to clear.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:46 pm

Basically, you're saying a whole bunch of immigrant families are stupid for emphasizing education.
nigel_ht,

1) I help pay for my younger sister's college education. We, uncles and aunties, pooled our money and sponsored many of our nephews and nieces (not our own kids) through a college education. In summary, I have been paying for many college educations over 20+ years. 50% of my nephews and nieces dropped out.

2) We are realistic in our view as per college education. It is not the only path to be successful. And, it may not be sufficient to be successful either. We are not dogmatic as per college education. Aka, it is not the only way.


3) Many of my family members are millionaires. Some never enter high school. Some have a graduate degree.


4) Who said that a person could only be educated in a college?


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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:19 am
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:13 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
nigel_ht,

1) Not all kids graduated from college. There is a fair amount of drop out.
In recent years, only 58% of college freshmen graduated in six years. A few of the remaining 42% will eventually graduate, but many will not.

Of my four nephews and nieces, all of whom went to college, only one graduated and only after seven years, and he now works for the USPS, so his time and money spent on pursuing his degree was a complete financial waste.
From your link:

"Graduation statistics for students who began school part-time or who transferred have never been collected. In other words, the data collection system ignored the completion rates of nontraditional students who actually represent the majority of the nation’s students.
...
Colleges and universities now report the six and eight-year graduation rates of students who were part-time or who transferred in. You also can see how many students still are enrolled at the institution or have enrolled elsewhere. You can find these figures by pulling up a profile on College Navigator.
...
Looking at national figures, you can see six-year graduation rates:

Full-time, first-time students: 59.2%
Transfer, full-time students: 58.9%
Transfer, part-time students: 37.7%
First-time, part-time students: 17.7%
The statistics look like transfer students graduate at the same rate as students who stay at their original school. The graduation rates for sophomores who persisted at their original schools are higher than the graduation rates for transfer students"

The majority (58.9% of full time students) of that 42% will graduate in 6 years...so about a 75% six year graduation rate.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

mnnice wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:12 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
Nail hit squarely on the head!

That's the main take away anyone reading this thread years from now via a search should heed. I haven't really looked back to the 1980's and early 1990's to see if it was different or the same for workers in the age 50-62 range, but the message certainly was not being telegraphed to me when I started my career in the 1980's to make plans to be FI by age 50 and get ready for what could happen in your 50's. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Regardless, we've plowed ahead since 2018 and kept on track now that I have entered my third year of OMY.

CyclingDuo
Your Money or Your Life was published in 1993. I think I read it in 1994 about the same time I finished college. DH and I semi-retired in 2014 in our mid 40’s. Anyway I think there was some cultural awareness of FI concepts but much less than now.

I reject the idea that people with middle class incomes and children can’t achieve early retirement. You do probably need high average income, healthy non-disabled offspring (probably just one or two), and frugal natures. You don’t need inheritances, stock options, or other major windfalls. You do need to tune out many of the cultural expectations.
For some reason, that is one of the books I missed reading over all these years since it was first published. I was already about a decade into working when that book came out (already living and working overseas at the time), so it certainly wasn't on the shelf where I was living. It was also pre-personal computer days and pre-Amazon book days for us, and the one or two English book stores that were in the city where we lived had slim pickings as most everything on the shelves was from Great Britain or foreign language books that had been translated into English. I have since read many books like it, or at least that tackle the same subject matter and do find them very interesting.

Then again, I don't think I was looking for such a book at the time. I was paying into that country's pension system as well as saving in taxable account beyond what we had already contributed here in the states at the time into our US pre-tax retirement IRA accounts before moving to Europe. Talk amongst my colleagues in Europe at that time was centered around paying into the pension system and being vested (initially was 10 years for a foreigner to become vested, then they changed the rules to 18 years for foreigners while I was there), was that the pension would pay 85% of one's highest career annual earnings and could be taken starting at age 57 for my particular job. We were under the socialized medical system which also would continue into retirement for pensioners. At least those were the rules then, so all of my colleagues were on that path - and so too was I - which at least afforded me the opportunity to not worry too much about retirement. Not saying that was any reason I didn't think beyond that scope at the time, but it certainly was a nice gig if I had remained for at least another 10-18 years when you factor in the pension and medical coverage that job provided for retirees. I certainly wasn't really entertaining any thoughts of what happens if you lose your job in your 50's for me at that time and the particular career path I was on at that time.

I did meet some people when I was in Middle School that in today's vernacular would be called FI or semi-retired (two accountants that were in a group that I spent three weeks kayaking with in Glacier Bay, Alaska). They only worked enough for a few months during tax season to bring in enough income, and the rest of the year did what we would call FI or semi-retired these days. That's the first recollection I have of meeting people who were living that way. But as you said, not as much cultural awareness of FI concepts back then during the 1970's and 1980's - especially with most of our parents working a job with a pension and a life long career at one organization being somewhat of the norm.

Agree on your latter point as there have been plenty of books, blogs, documentaries, online articles, print articles, etc... about how to achieve the various versions of FIRE - including for those who are in the "middle class". I imagine that the main obstacle for many is the avoidance of debt - at least outside of a reasonable mortgage. It is a lot easier to have a reasonable mortgage where we both live compared to having one in a HCOL/VHCOL area such as San Francisco, New York, etc... . Those with large student loan debt, as well as those that take on consumer debt via auto loans, credit card, etc... have a hurdle or two that must be jumped over if any attempt at FIRE is going to be successful.

Because of our age, the upbringing and cultural norms we experienced during those times while watching our grandparents and parents, and what I have mentioned throughout this thread about the intellectual stimulation/challenge, the sense of identity/purpose, the social aspect of working in your golden years - we probably relate and identify more with the book Aging, Work, and Retirement by Elizabeth Fideler.

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel | "Pick a bushel, save a peck!" - Grandpa
SantaClaraSurfer
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by SantaClaraSurfer »

I'm just the other side of 50 and, due to my own career choices, including starting my career with a series of self-employed businesses, I am now on my 4th career "reinvent," but this time during Covid-19.

There are so many details, some of them painful, of my own experience that leap to mind reading this thread. My self-employment experiences, my temp job experiences, my time attending "community career classes," my time working at a grocery store famous for hiring mid-career laid-off people, my time contracting, my second and third time contracting, mandatory UI group trainings and, above all, my multiple, more than I think I could remember, but I do, job interviews over the last thirty years.

My bottom line would be to share two things.

1. Pragmatically, there's nothing that beats an employer making a FT commitment to you both for security and reliable wealth building during your time of employment. Having experienced the other side, all these details come to mind: life insurance, disability, life and disability buy ups, 401(k) plans and matches, bonuses, trainings, home office reimbursements, being supplied office equipment for use while you are employed, what amounts to essentially "paid networking" from travel and events, not to mention miles and points. There is very little in contracting, temping, part time work or even self-employment that works out to your advantage in quite the same way. All the above are especially beneficial to 50+ workers, and both parties know this!

2. I've learned - the hard way - that there are two equally valid mindsets when it comes to work uncertainty: the scarcity mindset and the abundance mindset. Both are extremely valid. If I didn't embrace the scarcity mindset at some points along the way, I would never have taken the grocery job or the temp job...and I especially might not have learned the discipline of frugality and saving...and I might have had to endure even worse financial outcomes than I did. If I didn't embrace the abundance mindset I might never have leapfrogged from the grocery job and the temp jobs to FT positions with benefits, first as a contractor, and then as a FT employee.

Takeaway: I think there is definitely some headwind to job hunting 50+...I experienced it 35+ and 40+ in previous fields!...but what has helped me more than anything with sticking to the abundance mindset is to realize that modern employers are looking for a win-win, 2-3 year commitment for most positions and, while I may be competing against younger competition for a given role, my duty as a job applicant is to create my side of the "win" in that equation leveraging the best of what I bring to the table in a forward-looking way, and to take nothing for granted in terms of understanding the real value that competitors may also bring to the role.

Key digital workplace insight: A mindset mistake that is easy to make is to ignore the reality that there are baseline digital competencies that all of us are continually training and retraining on, and adapting to new norms, as well. From the basics like email etiquette to honing SaaS platform skillsets (ie. Slack, Salesforce, Outreach), presentation skillsets (on Zoom, via WebEx, in a Powerpoint), and then the ability to switch from one ecosystem to another ecosystem (say from Microsoft to G-Suite), even if you've used one platform exclusively for a decade.

Do you Excel? Can you switch on the fly to Sheets? Can you figure out how share that data via Airtable or make it shine in Tableau? Are you willing to keep learning and switching and retraining on new platforms just like your competitors for that FT job...or once you land it, in your new department... all have to do, too? All of these things really matter.

However, in this new digital, SaaS-platform driven workplace we ALL, at every age, are continually learning new platforms and terminology and a shared culture for using them. No one is perfect, and we all will make mistakes and have to learn new workspaces. But willingness to dive in is important, too! It's not fair that a 25 year old may get the benefit of the doubt where an older employee won't when it comes to the digital workplace, but calling that unfair won't change that reality one whit. My strategy is simply to embrace it and never allow myself to get flustered when learning something new. (Actually, finding ways to train teammates on a new platform and making the process easy for them is a great way to stand out in the 50+ space.)

Fundamental 50+ insight: Putting the above aside, the bigger mistake that I've made, and seen others make, as well, is to rearview mirror my skills, experience and accomplishments. What an employer cares about, in my experience, is your key functional skillsets for the given role and your appropriateness to be "the hire" and to "join the team" going forward. No amount of "glory days" "seen it all" experience can make up for core competencies in key skillsets, enthusiasm, and a good cultural fit for the role and team.

All that being said, I'm in the midst of a job hunt and reinvent currently. I'm fascinated about what the next two decades of work life will look like. We'll see if I land something great right away or if I have to adjust my sights post-Covid, but I am certain that there are some exciting roles out there for me. And if they are not exactly what I hoped for, I know how to be frugal, I'm married to an amazing spouse with a strong career of her own...and, as always, I'll be saving and investing as a Boglehead with one eye on the future and a close attention to low-cost, diversified investments!
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:59 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:46 pm
Basically, you're saying a whole bunch of immigrant families are stupid for emphasizing education.
nigel_ht,

1) I help pay for my younger sister's college education. We, uncles and aunties, pooled our money and sponsored many of our nephews and nieces (not our own kids) through a college education. In summary, I have been paying for many college educations over 20+ years. 50% of my nephews and nieces dropped out.

2) We are realistic in our view as per college education. It is not the only path to be successful. And, it may not be sufficient to be successful either. We are not dogmatic as per college education. Aka, it is not the only way.

3) Many of my family members are millionaires. Some never enter high school. Some have a graduate degree.

4) Who said that a person could only be educated in a college?

KlangFool
Perhaps a family with a poor college success rate isn't the best family to judge the efficacy of breaking the poverty cycle through education? It is not the only path but it is the most likely path to financial success for the average family.

Many of my family are millionaires as well. These all went to college...grandpa came to the US got an engineering degree and worked as an engineer his whole life.

Of family members that didn't go to college, or failed to complete college, the outcomes were generally not as good. That holds true for my wife's family as well.

How many of those nephews and nieces that dropped out ended up successful? How many of these dropped out to become entrepreneurs with someone they met in college?
KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:59 pm
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:46 pm
Basically, you're saying a whole bunch of immigrant families are stupid for emphasizing education.
nigel_ht,

1) I help pay for my younger sister's college education. We, uncles and aunties, pooled our money and sponsored many of our nephews and nieces (not our own kids) through a college education. In summary, I have been paying for many college educations over 20+ years. 50% of my nephews and nieces dropped out.

2) We are realistic in our view as per college education. It is not the only path to be successful. And, it may not be sufficient to be successful either. We are not dogmatic as per college education. Aka, it is not the only way.

3) Many of my family members are millionaires. Some never enter high school. Some have a graduate degree.

4) Who said that a person could only be educated in a college?

KlangFool
Perhaps a family with a poor college success rate isn't the best family to judge the efficacy of breaking the poverty cycle through education? It is not the only path but it is the most likely path to financial success for the average family.

Many of my family are millionaires as well. These all went to college...grandpa came to the US got an engineering degree and worked as an engineer his whole life.

Of family members that didn't go to college, or failed to complete college, the outcomes were generally not as good. That holds true for my wife's family as well.

How many of those nephews and nieces that dropped out ended up successful? How many of these dropped out to become entrepreneurs with someone they met in college?
nigel_ht,

<<Perhaps a family with a poor college success rate isn't the best family to judge the efficacy of breaking the poverty cycle through education? >>


We came from an abject poverty background. My parents never enter high school. Many of us become a millionaire with or without a formal college education. Some without high school education. We do not need a formal education to break the poverty cycle.

<<How many of these dropped out to become entrepreneurs with someone they met in college?>>

We do not need that. I come from a multigeneration business family. 50% of my family are in some sort of business. We do not need college to teach our kids how to be successful in business. We have family members that could teach the younger generation.


<<Of family members that didn't go to college, or failed to complete college, the outcomes were generally not as good. That holds true for my wife's family as well.>>

In summary, it is the only way to be successful for your family. Please note that it may not be true for others.

<<Many of my family are millionaires as well. These all went to college...grandpa came to the US got an engineering degree and worked as an engineer his whole life. >>


Please note that my family is spread across 30+ countries in the world. Our system work across the world.

KlangFool
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by invest4 »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:33 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:15 pm
That was my point: 'going to college' alone is not sufficient, and there are other paths, such as trade schools, that can be more effective for many individuals.
Sure, but the easy path is still college for those kids who can manage to get a 4 year degree in a major that has a decent number of good paying jobs out of the gate. K-12 teacher is one of those...in the right state anyway. Alaska rather than Alabama for example...
Looks like both are more in agreement vs not.

All of my own children are very capable of a degree and none has indicated interest in a trade (I would support either, but not "none".). Alas, one was not initially keen on pursuing a degree and would be content with a "simple life".

To this, I simply asked them to trust their Dad (aged as he may be, but perhaps with a bit more life experience that may be of some small value from time to time) and pursue the degree as it opens doors that may otherwise be closed if they should need or want to pursue certain careers. And...in the end, if they come to me to say they didn't really need it after all, I would be more than content to have been wrong on my end vs the other way around.

Having successfully finished their first semester and also observing the economic impact and fragility in various work segments during the past year, I believe their perspective has also changed a bit...at least I thought so when they presented me with the bill for the next semester with nary any encouragement from my side.

YMMV

:happy
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

SantaClaraSurfer wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:25 pm I'm just the other side of 50 and, due to my own career choices, including starting my career with a series of self-employed businesses, I am now on my 4th career "reinvent," but this time during Covid-19.

There are so many details, some of them painful, of my own experience that leap to mind reading this thread. My self-employment experiences, my temp job experiences, my time attending "community career classes," my time working at a grocery store famous for hiring mid-career laid-off people, my time contracting, my second and third time contracting, mandatory UI group trainings and, above all, my multiple, more than I think I could remember, but I do, job interviews over the last thirty years.

My bottom line would be to share two things.

1. Pragmatically, there's nothing that beats an employer making a FT commitment to you both for security and reliable wealth building during your time of employment. Having experienced the other side, all these details come to mind: life insurance, disability, life and disability buy ups, 401(k) plans and matches, bonuses, trainings, home office reimbursements, being supplied office equipment for use while you are employed, what amounts to essentially "paid networking" from travel and events, not to mention miles and points. There is very little in contracting, temping, part time work or even self-employment that works out to your advantage in quite the same way. All the above are especially beneficial to 50+ workers, and both parties know this!

2. I've learned - the hard way - that there are two equally valid mindsets when it comes to work uncertainty: the scarcity mindset and the abundance mindset. Both are extremely valid. If I didn't embrace the scarcity mindset at some points along the way, I would never have taken the grocery job or the temp job...and I especially might not have learned the discipline of frugality and saving...and I might have had to endure even worse financial outcomes than I did. If I didn't embrace the abundance mindset I might never have leapfrogged from the grocery job and the temp jobs to FT positions with benefits, first as a contractor, and then as a FT employee.

Takeaway: I think there is definitely some headwind to job hunting 50+...I experienced it 35+ and 40+ in previous fields!...but what has helped me more than anything with sticking to the abundance mindset is to realize that modern employers are looking for a win-win, 2-3 year commitment for most positions and, while I may be competing against younger competition for a given role, my duty as a job applicant is to create my side of the "win" in that equation leveraging the best of what I bring to the table in a forward-looking way, and to take nothing for granted in terms of understanding the real value that competitors may also bring to the role.

Key digital workplace insight: A mindset mistake that is easy to make is to ignore the reality that there are baseline digital competencies that all of us are continually training and retraining on, and adapting to new norms, as well. From the basics like email etiquette to honing SaaS platform skillsets (ie. Slack, Salesforce, Outreach), presentation skillsets (on Zoom, via WebEx, in a Powerpoint), and then the ability to switch from one ecosystem to another ecosystem (say from Microsoft to G-Suite), even if you've used one platform exclusively for a decade.

Do you Excel? Can you switch on the fly to Sheets? Can you figure out how share that data via Airtable or make it shine in Tableau? Are you willing to keep learning and switching and retraining on new platforms just like your competitors for that FT job...or once you land it, in your new department... all have to do, too? All of these things really matter.

However, in this new digital, SaaS-platform driven workplace we ALL, at every age, are continually learning new platforms and terminology and a shared culture for using them. No one is perfect, and we all will make mistakes and have to learn new workspaces. But willingness to dive in is important, too! It's not fair that a 25 year old may get the benefit of the doubt where an older employee won't when it comes to the digital workplace, but calling that unfair won't change that reality one whit. My strategy is simply to embrace it and never allow myself to get flustered when learning something new. (Actually, finding ways to train teammates on a new platform and making the process easy for them is a great way to stand out in the 50+ space.)

Fundamental 50+ insight: Putting the above aside, the bigger mistake that I've made, and seen others make, as well, is to rearview mirror my skills, experience and accomplishments. What an employer cares about, in my experience, is your key functional skillsets for the given role and your appropriateness to be "the hire" and to "join the team" going forward. No amount of "glory days" "seen it all" experience can make up for core competencies in key skillsets, enthusiasm, and a good cultural fit for the role and team.

All that being said, I'm in the midst of a job hunt and reinvent currently. I'm fascinated about what the next two decades of work life will look like. We'll see if I land something great right away or if I have to adjust my sights post-Covid, but I am certain that there are some exciting roles out there for me. And if they are not exactly what I hoped for, I know how to be frugal, I'm married to an amazing spouse with a strong career of her own...and, as always, I'll be saving and investing as a Boglehead with one eye on the future and a close attention to low-cost, diversified investments!
Great post!! This is a fantastic addition to the thread, SantaClaraSurfer! :beer

You did bring up an excellent suggestion...

Actually, finding ways to train teammates on a new platform and making the process easy for them is a great way to stand out in the 50+ space.

CyclingDuo
Last edited by CyclingDuo on Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by HomerJ »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:49 am
HomerJ wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:37 am
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:30 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:12 am

Yes. You still use what's in 529s for college. That has the highest probability of a positive ROI that gets your family back on track. It is also the highest probability of a positive outcome for yourself unless you think the kids will abandon you.

You can't really afford not to send your kids to college in this scenario....it doesn't really matter whether the money sits in a 529 or a 401K. Spend less than $300K if you can using some of the strategies I listed above but the only way out of this scenario is to maximize the potential human capital in your kids.
nigel_ht,

In summary, you believe that even if the parents have to lose their house and live on the street and starve, they should still pay for a college education. I disagreed.
That's not what he said.

I agree that people should prioritize retirement savings over college savings. I agree that the kids can get loans if hard times hit the family.

No one is going to starve on the streets.

Plenty of jobs out there if one stops being so prideful, and does what has to be done.
HomerJ,


Do you agree with that poster, "nigel_ht" that if someone is unemployed in 40s/50s and only have 600K (300K in Retirement + 300K in 529), the person should still pay for college education instead of taking a student loan?


KlangFool
No, I would make my kids get student loans and use the money for myself, But you stated that his position was that the parents should starve in the street, and that was not his position at all.

Don't make up stuff.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 am
nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:40 am
familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:05 am I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.
I might have been the poster KlangFool was referring to, and I agree that maxing out every available dollar of tax-advantaged space before investing elsewhere (taxable or 529) is the optimal approach to college financial planning on so many levels that departing from it should require an act of Congress.

I further recommend paying off the house before investing in taxable or 529 if need-based financial aid is a possibility.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:02 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:19 am
KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:13 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 am

What? Do you really think most kids would let their parents and siblings starve after helping them go to college and get a good job?
nigel_ht,

1) Not all kids graduated from college. There is a fair amount of drop out.
In recent years, only 58% of college freshmen graduated in six years. A few of the remaining 42% will eventually graduate, but many will not.

Of my four nephews and nieces, all of whom went to college, only one graduated and only after seven years, and he now works for the USPS, so his time and money spent on pursuing his degree was a complete financial waste.
From your link:

"Graduation statistics for students who began school part-time or who transferred have never been collected. In other words, the data collection system ignored the completion rates of nontraditional students who actually represent the majority of the nation’s students.
...
Colleges and universities now report the six and eight-year graduation rates of students who were part-time or who transferred in. You also can see how many students still are enrolled at the institution or have enrolled elsewhere. You can find these figures by pulling up a profile on College Navigator.
...
Looking at national figures, you can see six-year graduation rates:

Full-time, first-time students: 59.2%
Transfer, full-time students: 58.9%
Transfer, part-time students: 37.7%
First-time, part-time students: 17.7%
The statistics look like transfer students graduate at the same rate as students who stay at their original school. The graduation rates for sophomores who persisted at their original schools are higher than the graduation rates for transfer students"

The majority (58.9% of full time students) of that 42% will graduate in 6 years...so about a 75% six year graduation rate.
That sounds about right.

If that holds true, that means that a quarter of incoming college freshmen will incur some amount of college expense and never graduate. And many will take longer than six years to graduate, incurring both college expenses and often significant opportunity costs by being out of the 'meaningful' workforce. And many more will earn degrees with little or no value in the marketplace.

Many, including myself, have reaped significant financial benefits from higher education. But many others have benefited much less, and many others have experienced net costs.

Again, I'm not opposed to higher ed; I'm a professor after all. But I've personally witnessed the reality that it's not the optimal path for everyone. That's all.

Back to the context of the thread, many very well-intentioned parents have likely sacrificed too much retirement security to fund their kids' college expenses. But becoming boomerang parents or worse later on is probably not what they or their kids want.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

KlangFool wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:47 pm We came from an abject poverty background.
...
I come from a multigeneration business family. 50% of my family are in some sort of business. We do not need college to teach our kids how to be successful in business. We have family members that could teach the younger generation.
Yes, you can be successful entrepreneurs without college. Of course many small businesses do fail.

And coming from an abject poverty background doesn't really support your position unless it was because the government took it all away. That happened to both my parents and my wife's so its not uncommon but if your clan is close enough to "teach kids to be successful" then they are close enough that maybe your family didn't start from zero either.
<<Of family members that didn't go to college, or failed to complete college, the outcomes were generally not as good. That holds true for my wife's family as well.>>

In summary, it is the only way to be successful for your family. Please note that it may not be true for others.
It's more reliable a path than starting a business. And while it's not the only way as I have many cousins in business but most of the successful ones have a degree because it's not THAT hard. The ones that didn't never had the opportunity because they had to drop out to support the family after it had been stripped.

Kids who would drop out of school that uncles and aunts are spending money on strike me as not likely going to be motivated enough to be THAT successful at business either.

It's one thing to say "I'm going to pursue a trade and someday build my own business" out of high school and something different to bail out on something that family members who are making a sacrifice (however small) to pay for.
<<Many of my family are millionaires as well. These all went to college...grandpa came to the US got an engineering degree and worked as an engineer his whole life. >>

Please note that my family is spread across 30+ countries in the world. Our system work across the world.

KlangFool
The discussion is US centric and I contend that the easiest path to millionaire status in the US is going to college, getting some kind of degree that provides an above average income and saving prodigiously into a BH style portfolio. It takes a while but you can reach FI in your 40's if you pick the right major.

As far as 30+ countries, I have to ask, so what? How did that help your parents in "abject poverty"? Other than names on some family temple somewhere so what? Don't try that 2500 year history nonsense on me...I'm not buying it. My family tree traces back to a disciple of Confucius. Big deal...it's completely meaningless. Likewise, distant cousins you never interact with are also meaningless.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by ncbill »

nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:10 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am
nigel_ht wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:02 amBut however you manage it the kids should go to college whether its through a loan, 529 or drawing down 401K.
Despite me being a college professor, I have to say that this is just plain wrong. Not everyone is 'college material', and many current college graduates will do worse financially than at least some of those who never attended college at all. For instance, a cousin of mine wasn't a good fit for college, and he's now making six-figures with hefty per diems as a 20-something working as a welder (and saving the bulk of his income).

The lion's share of the lifetime earnings advantage that a college education can provide is among those majoring in medicine, law, STEM, and business. Those majoring in 16th century Italian poetry and the like can easily get negative financial value from going to college.
Yes, medicine, law, STEM and business and not a useless (from the perspective of earning money) degree. Education is the silver bullet to poverty...and the expectation of immigrant families that work very hard to get their kids there don't have the expectation that they will get a degree in Italian poetry. Because that would be epically stupid.

The unemployable 50 year olds in the scenario need to have that same immigrant mindset.

And yes, if your kid wants to be a electrician or other good paying trade that works too if you can find them a path. High schools don't really teach those anymore which means you need to be able to get hired somewhere to learn the trade. There's no shop class anymore...but there are coding and engineering classes.

Military works too...but eventually you likely need to go to college to have a decent civ career.

But the easiest path is a 4 year comp sci, IT or a good engineering degree. Nursing is a harder career but is a 2-4 year path and you need to pass the NCLEX and likely eventually get a BSN and MSN if you just went the AA route.
Simply joining the state National Guard covers public school tuition in many states, so one can do both at the same time.

It was the backup plan for one of my kids which would have allowed them to attend an out-of-state public school with me just paying room & board.

The catch in that particular state was the kid would have had to have gone through both basic & advanced camps before qualifying for education benefits, so they likely wouldn't have been able to start until spring semester.

"letting the kid borrow" means parents co-signing a lot o' loans...can unemployed parents actually qualify as co-signers for sufficient loans to cover tuition/fees/room & board?
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

ncbill wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:51 pm "letting the kid borrow" means parents co-signing a lot o' loans...can unemployed parents actually qualify as co-signers for sufficient loans to cover tuition/fees/room & board?
Between my wife and myself, we took out about $30k of student loans and never had a parent cosign for any of them. Perhaps the dollar amount involved was too low to necessitate cosigning.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by ScoobyDoo »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:34 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:20 amHaving now experienced three years of what the adjunct teaching world and pay is like without any benefits - there appears to be some room for a bit of reform within that segment of the academic community. :shock:
For the benefit of others who may be reading this, adjuncts are usually in the most tenuous teaching position possible in higher ed. Typically, they only work from one semester/quarter to the next with no contract at all and very often with no benefits whatsoever unless they are teaching enough courses to qualify for benefits. And at many institutions, they are employed solely at the discretion of the chair of the department in which they teach. The amount that they are paid is often a pittance, especially in comparison to full-time faculty. Consequently, many administrators love adjuncts because they are relatively cheap and can be 'kicked to the curb' easily and quickly, unlike full-time faculty, and in many disciplines, the number of tenured faculty have been waning for years, while the number of adjunct faculty have been increasing. Accrediting bodies are generally not favorable to 'excessive' use of adjuncts, and that has been one of the few reasons why many institutions have not moved almost entirely toward using primarily adjuncts, though some have done just that.
Sounds exactly like MegaCorp world....layoff majority of employees and hire MiniCorp to fully staff dept worker-bees with cheaper no-benefits contractors (keeping management/executives FTE ofcourse). Capitalism!
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by ondarvr »

Even with good planning things can go sideways.

My wife and I had good paying jobs and we saved enough to be FI before I turned 65. Started late, I had to change to a different carrier at 40 to make it happen. My wife went back to school at 40 to become an RN.

Just before I turned 59 my wife got sepsis and was in critical care for a month, many operations later she was sent to a care center for continuing treatment.

During that time we had a record flood that destroyed our property, it went from $500,000 + to almost zero in value. (Owed $125,000)

The week I brought her home I got a call from HR. Due to the recent sale of the company 70% of the employees were being laid off, and I was one of them.

We went from a well paid working couple with a good net worth and a plan, to unemployed, no equity in our home and with steep medical debt that was increasing every day. (Wife still had nurses visiting several times per week, and I supplied the required 24/7 care.)

We liquidated much of our savings to get through the next year. I took a job making a little less money, but I didn't need to move, there were higher paying options if I relocated, but my wife's health didn't allow it.

Now 5 years later, sold my property to the county, relocated and paid cash for a house where the prices are much lower, have a great job with an even better boss, maxing out the 401K, plus additional investments.

Wife never went back to work, she's on disability now, took a few years to get that in place.

I'm behind where I could have been, but could retire in good shape if needed next year.

I plan to work longer because I enjoy it, but I don't count on it as being in my control.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by novolog »

mnnice wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:12 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
Nail hit squarely on the head!

That's the main take away anyone reading this thread years from now via a search should heed. I haven't really looked back to the 1980's and early 1990's to see if it was different or the same for workers in the age 50-62 range, but the message certainly was not being telegraphed to me when I started my career in the 1980's to make plans to be FI by age 50 and get ready for what could happen in your 50's. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Regardless, we've plowed ahead since 2018 and kept on track now that I have entered my third year of OMY.

CyclingDuo
Your Money or Your Life was published in 1993. I think I read it in 1994 about the same time I finished college. DH and I semi-retired in 2014 in our mid 40’s. Anyway I think there was some cultural awareness of FI concepts but much less than now.

I reject the idea that people with middle class incomes and children can’t achieve early retirement. You do probably need high average income, healthy non-disabled offspring (probably just one or two), and frugal natures. You don’t need inheritances, stock options, or other major windfalls. You do need to tune out many of the cultural expectations.
Retirement in 40's is achievable even with average income, as long as you save a significant amount of your income (~40%) every year starting in your 20's. Most people obviously do not do this. I wonder if more would if they simply realized it is a possibility?
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

novolog wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:27 pm
mnnice wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:12 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm



I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
Nail hit squarely on the head!

That's the main take away anyone reading this thread years from now via a search should heed. I haven't really looked back to the 1980's and early 1990's to see if it was different or the same for workers in the age 50-62 range, but the message certainly was not being telegraphed to me when I started my career in the 1980's to make plans to be FI by age 50 and get ready for what could happen in your 50's. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Regardless, we've plowed ahead since 2018 and kept on track now that I have entered my third year of OMY.

CyclingDuo
Your Money or Your Life was published in 1993. I think I read it in 1994 about the same time I finished college. DH and I semi-retired in 2014 in our mid 40’s. Anyway I think there was some cultural awareness of FI concepts but much less than now.

I reject the idea that people with middle class incomes and children can’t achieve early retirement. You do probably need high average income, healthy non-disabled offspring (probably just one or two), and frugal natures. You don’t need inheritances, stock options, or other major windfalls. You do need to tune out many of the cultural expectations.
Retirement in 40's is achievable even with average income, as long as you save a significant amount of your income (~40%) every year starting in your 20's. Most people obviously do not do this. I wonder if more would if they simply realized it is a possibility?
When I've discussed how long it takes to reach FI at various saving rates with my students, most of them quickly realize that a saving rate in the 5-10% range is simply too low for most workers. It seems that most of them at least initially believe that a 20-25% saving rate would be a good balance for them in their careers (though I've been surprised how many aren't shocked when I mention the fact that a number of people have 50% saving rates or higher). Whether they follow through on that is an entirely different matter though.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by abuss368 »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:45 pm
When I've discussed how long it takes to reach FI at various saving rates with my students, most of them quickly realize that a saving rate in the 5-10% range is simply too low for most workers. It seems that most of them at least initially believe that a 20-25% saving rate would be a good balance for them in their careers (though I've been surprised how many aren't shocked when I mention the fact that a number of people have 50% saving rates or higher). Whether they follow through on that is an entirely different matter though.
Are you teaching at a college or grade school level? What type of course are you teaching?

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

abuss368 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:51 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:45 pm
When I've discussed how long it takes to reach FI at various saving rates with my students, most of them quickly realize that a saving rate in the 5-10% range is simply too low for most workers. It seems that most of them at least initially believe that a 20-25% saving rate would be a good balance for them in their careers (though I've been surprised how many aren't shocked when I mention the fact that a number of people have 50% saving rates or higher). Whether they follow through on that is an entirely different matter though.
Are you teaching at a college or grade school level? What type of course are you teaching?

Tony
I teach at the university level as a business professor, though I do not reveal which discipline for anonymity's sake.
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