Losing a job in your 50's...

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kleiner
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by kleiner »

Normchad wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:46 pm I feel you. If you want to learn to hate the thing you love, do it for a living. I think that has happened to me. I think a lot about that when I see professional poker players or airline pilots. Like do they feel the same way? How fun is it to pilot a Southwest 737 from Tampa to Baltimore and Providence and back 4 days a week?
Thats exactly right, if you're in your thirties and forties and really enjoy your work, don't assume that you will feel the same way in your fifties. I'm sure this applies to all fields but its especially true in software. I was your classic computer nerd as a teenager - I read manuals for fun after school. Now, not so much :-)
3of10
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by 3of10 »

CyclingDuo wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:00 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm I agree that at least planning on becoming FI in your 50s is a wise move for those who can realistically achieve it.
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm Planning on just barely making your retirement financially work at age 66, including receiving 100% of your projected SS benefits and pension income, is very dicey, IMHO.
I don't see the former as realistic for the typical household plus a standard deviation or more.

The latter is reasonable enough for most. Hell, it'd be an improvement over the current approach of the supermajority, major majority?
It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it. They have two advantages in their favor though. First, SS benefits will replace a greater proportion of their career income. Second, they are possibly less likely to be subject to age discrimination.

As I noted, there are too many potential problems with planning on being fully and continuously employed and able to make planned retirement contributions to age 66 for the plan to be robust. Yes, it would certainly lead to a far better than average outcome, but that doesn't make it a solid plan.
Nail hit squarely on the head!

That's the main take away anyone reading this thread years from now via a search should heed. I haven't really looked back to the 1980's and early 1990's to see if it was different or the same for workers in the age 50-62 range, but the message certainly was not being telegraphed to me when I started my career in the 1980's to make plans to be FI by age 50 and get ready for what could happen in your 50's. Maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Regardless, we've plowed ahead since 2018 and kept on track now that I have entered my third year of OMY.

CyclingDuo
It was easier for many workers in the 1980's and 1990's because jobs were more stable and there was the important pension for many companies. When I joined the megacorp in the 80's, I kept being told by the older workers about the value of the company's pension. And, many of them retired in their 50's because of the pension and then solid retiree healthcare. Factor that in with LBYM and later Social Security, it was quite doable for some of them.
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gr7070
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm

It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area).
I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.
Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.
I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
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willthrill81
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm

I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.
Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.
I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
I specified "Most of those making above the median U.S. household income," which does not include an individual making $25k.
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7eight9
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by 7eight9 »

Interesting article in today's New York Times. A lot of the 55-70 cohort are dropping out of the workforce altogether.

When Retirement Comes Too Early
The New School’s Retirement Equity Lab reported in early August that 2.9 million workers ages 55 to 70 had left the labor market since March — meaning that they were neither working nor actively job-hunting — and projected that another 1.1 million might do so by November. “They’re exiting the labor force at twice the rate they were during the Great Recession” of 2007 to 2009, Dr. Ghilarducci said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/heal ... e=Homepage
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visualguy
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by visualguy »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it.
If you really want to exclude VHCOL, you need to look at the median income in LCOL/MCOL areas when you do the savings feasibility math, not the national median income which is higher than for LCOL/MCOL areas.
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willthrill81
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

visualguy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it.
If you really want to exclude VHCOL, you need to look at the median income in LCOL/MCOL areas when you do the savings feasibility math, not the national median income which is higher than for LCOL/MCOL areas.
The median is not impact by outliers such as the relatively few VHCOL areas in the U.S. The mean would be though.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
visualguy
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by visualguy »

willthrill81 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:15 pm
visualguy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it.
If you really want to exclude VHCOL, you need to look at the median income in LCOL/MCOL areas when you do the savings feasibility math, not the national median income which is higher than for LCOL/MCOL areas.
The median is not impact by outliers such as the relatively few VHCOL areas in the U.S. The mean would be though.
Not sure you're right - the number of VHCOL areas is not large, but there are a lot of people in those areas...
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willthrill81
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

visualguy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:31 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:15 pm
visualguy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:49 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:11 pm It's a matter of priorities. Most of those making above the median U.S. household income, which is the decided majority of those on this forum, could certainly achieve FI by 55 if they wanted to and planned accordingly (unless they live in a VHCOL area). But I agree that those making under the median income would have a hard go of achieving it.
If you really want to exclude VHCOL, you need to look at the median income in LCOL/MCOL areas when you do the savings feasibility math, not the national median income which is higher than for LCOL/MCOL areas.
The median is not impact by outliers such as the relatively few VHCOL areas in the U.S. The mean would be though.
Not sure you're right - the number of VHCOL areas is not large, but there are a lot of people in those areas...
If the majority of the nation's citizens lived in VHCOL and HCOL areas, they wouldn't be VHCOL and HCOL. They would be HCOL and MCOL instead.

Remember that the median means 50% are above that value and 50% are below.

Just look at the median household income by state to see why the nationwide median household income is not far off the mark in terms of being representative of the nation as a whole. In 2018, the state with the highest median household income, Maryland, doesn't even have double ($83,242) what the state with the lowest median household income has, West Virginia ($44,097).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
Wrench
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Wrench »

Normchad wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.

And they were looking mainly at people who had been with their current employers for at least 5 years. So a stable cohort of individuals.

I was shocked by their findings. Everybody should read it and really think about what it means for them.
As one of the 58%, I was not shocked at all. I will say it varies a lot by field and industry. At the company where I spent nearly two decades, the average employee age was in the mid-thirties. They had a very active college recruiting program and brought in large numbers of new grads every year. Some of those were absorbed by growth, but not all. So older folks were gently "retired-off". On the other hand, in Universities there are large numbers of faculty and staff over 50. As far as I can tell, very rarely is anyone forced to retire (though maybe that will change now because of the pandemic related budget crisis in Universities). My current boss is in his late 80s and refuses to call it quits. So if you want to work into your 60s or 70s, find a University position or other job where age and knowledge is highly valued. Otherwise, be prepared to be FI in your 50s.
CycloRista
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CycloRista »

7eight9 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:14 pm Interesting article in today's New York Times. A lot of the 55-70 cohort are dropping out of the workforce altogether.

When Retirement Comes Too Early
The New School’s Retirement Equity Lab reported in early August that 2.9 million workers ages 55 to 70 had left the labor market since March — meaning that they were neither working nor actively job-hunting — and projected that another 1.1 million might do so by November. “They’re exiting the labor force at twice the rate they were during the Great Recession” of 2007 to 2009, Dr. Ghilarducci said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/heal ... e=Homepage
Yes- and I think that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Commercial real estate will become a full-on dumpster fire in the next few years when there is a huge increase in available space due to lack of lease renewal activity. I've read some estimates as low as 10% reduction in corp floor plans due to Covid-19/work from home shifts. I'm inclined to think 3x that would be more realistic/accurate.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by flyingaway »

Wrench wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:42 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.

And they were looking mainly at people who had been with their current employers for at least 5 years. So a stable cohort of individuals.

I was shocked by their findings. Everybody should read it and really think about what it means for them.
As one of the 58%, I was not shocked at all. I will say it varies a lot by field and industry. At the company where I spent nearly two decades, the average employee age was in the mid-thirties. They had a very active college recruiting program and brought in large numbers of new grads every year. Some of those were absorbed by growth, but not all. So older folks were gently "retired-off". On the other hand, in Universities there are large numbers of faculty and staff over 50. As far as I can tell, very rarely is anyone forced to retire (though maybe that will change now because of the pandemic related budget crisis in Universities). My current boss is in his late 80s and refuses to call it quits. So if you want to work into your 60s or 70s, find a University position or other job where age and knowledge is highly valued. Otherwise, be prepared to be FI in your 50s.
We have a professor in his late 70s. He retired and does not get paid, but maintains a professor emeritus status and an office. He attends most department meetings and serves on some committees.

I just wish he could find other ways to enjoy his life.
tnr
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by tnr »

flyingaway wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:03 am
Wrench wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:42 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.

And they were looking mainly at people who had been with their current employers for at least 5 years. So a stable cohort of individuals.

I was shocked by their findings. Everybody should read it and really think about what it means for them.
As one of the 58%, I was not shocked at all. I will say it varies a lot by field and industry. At the company where I spent nearly two decades, the average employee age was in the mid-thirties. They had a very active college recruiting program and brought in large numbers of new grads every year. Some of those were absorbed by growth, but not all. So older folks were gently "retired-off". On the other hand, in Universities there are large numbers of faculty and staff over 50. As far as I can tell, very rarely is anyone forced to retire (though maybe that will change now because of the pandemic related budget crisis in Universities). My current boss is in his late 80s and refuses to call it quits. So if you want to work into your 60s or 70s, find a University position or other job where age and knowledge is highly valued. Otherwise, be prepared to be FI in your 50s.
We have a professor in his late 70s. He retired and does not get paid, but maintains a professor emeritus status and an office. He attends most department meetings and serves on some committees.

I just wish he could find other ways to enjoy his life.
My guess is being associated with the department brings him the most satisfaction over anything else. If he is making life unpleasant for others in the department, then the head needs to step up and have a talk with him.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by SC Anteater »

Wrench wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:42 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:12 pm Keep in mind, the Propublica data in the original posting indicates 58% of people have unplanned employment disruptions after 50. I think they said it is true for both genders, across all industries. And fully 90% never earned their pre-disruption salary again.

And they were looking mainly at people who had been with their current employers for at least 5 years. So a stable cohort of individuals.

I was shocked by their findings. Everybody should read it and really think about what it means for them.
As one of the 58%, I was not shocked at all. I will say it varies a lot by field and industry. At the company where I spent nearly two decades, the average employee age was in the mid-thirties. They had a very active college recruiting program and brought in large numbers of new grads every year. Some of those were absorbed by growth, but not all. So older folks were gently "retired-off". On the other hand, in Universities there are large numbers of faculty and staff over 50. As far as I can tell, very rarely is anyone forced to retire (though maybe that will change now because of the pandemic related budget crisis in Universities). My current boss is in his late 80s and refuses to call it quits. So if you want to work into your 60s or 70s, find a University position or other job where age and knowledge is highly valued. Otherwise, be prepared to be FI in your 50s.
My spouse's employer (insurance co.) is full of people in their 50s and 60s. The last two hires in his office were people in their 50s, and I don't think anyone there is under 40. They don't want to be bothered with training the young'uns, they let one of the bigger players take that one, and they just hire experienced people. I do believe this is very unusual though.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

7eight9 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:14 pm Interesting article in today's New York Times. A lot of the 55-70 cohort are dropping out of the workforce altogether.

When Retirement Comes Too Early
The New School’s Retirement Equity Lab reported in early August that 2.9 million workers ages 55 to 70 had left the labor market since March — meaning that they were neither working nor actively job-hunting — and projected that another 1.1 million might do so by November. “They’re exiting the labor force at twice the rate they were during the Great Recession” of 2007 to 2009, Dr. Ghilarducci said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/28/heal ... e=Homepage
That's a good addition to this thread and yet another reason to champion using the decades of one's working career leading up to their 50's and 60's for being prepared. Obviously, Covid 19 was not around when I started the thread, but the recession narrative and job loss for older employees certainly rings true.

Industries where older workers have been hardest hit include construction, manufacturing, transportation and warehousing, education and other nonprofessional services, the Urban Institute found. In leisure and hospitality, more than a third of workers over 55 lost their jobs.

Ouch, that's rough.

I will admit it reading it was a tad depressing, but again - if one is prepared and FI, then accepting or landing replacement employment at a lower pay is not the end of the world to fill out additional years (for those that can get some replacement income).

I feel for the 64 year old lady in the story in Omaha who had worked full time for the hotel the past 39 years, and now her unemployment check is making it tough to cover her expenses (including her mortgage) even with her part-time job at Michaels. Of course, we have no information about what she has saved for retirement, what her SS monthly income would be if she ends up taking it now, if the hotel opens again and gets enough capacity could she potentially be rehired, etc... to get the full picture for that particular example.

CyclingDuo
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smitcat
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat »

gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm

I disagree. Expecting a household making, say 80k, to save 30% of their income from age 25 to 55 is asking too much.
Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.
I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
international001
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by international001 »

In case you didn't see it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ne/590650/

The moral is that you should find ways on capitalizing on your life skills.
I don't see as bad to take a pay cut along.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 pm Considering that millions of American households manage just fine on $56k annually ($80k minus 30%), it's not asking too much at all. Again, it's a matter of priorities.
Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.
I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 pm

Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic.
I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
The point of moving the goal posts was that in order to retire by 55 one has to save 30% of their salary for 30 years. That means they have to save 30% at age 25. The typical 25 yo needs to do so then. Or at least start saving a nice chunk and ramp up.

The typical household income earners are starting off at typical incomes (read modest) as young people, too.

These typical households aren't married at 25 either. They're typically single till 29.

That was my point.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:03 pm

I agree that that would be unrealistic, but that's not the scenario that you or I were referring to.
Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
The point of moving the goal posts was that in order to retire by 55 one has to save 30% of their salary for 30 years. That means they have to save 30% at age 25. The typical 25 yo needs to do so then. Or at least start saving a nice chunk and ramp up.

The typical household income earners are starting off at typical incomes (read modest) as young people, too.

These typical households aren't married at 25 either. They're typically single till 29.

That was my point.
I never referenced "typical" households or "typical" 25 year olds. I specifically said "those earning above the median household income who don't live in VHCOL areas."

And for the record, I was earning $100k when I was 28 and had already been married quite a while. Atypical? Yep, but it doesn't change what I said at all.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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gr7070
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by gr7070 »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:10 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm
gr7070 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:05 pm

Surely it's not that far off.

Doesn't one need to save about 30% of their income for 30 years to FI? 25-55. Median income of a 25 year old? 28? Etc. One standard deviation from that income at 25, 28 is not that much more, barely more; and very little percentage added to their discretionary income.

FI by 55 is an incredibly tall order for 2/3+ of the populus. I'm not even offering up excuses, it's just unreasonable.

Posting Bogleheads? Agreed, reasonable.
"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
The point of moving the goal posts was that in order to retire by 55 one has to save 30% of their salary for 30 years. That means they have to save 30% at age 25. The typical 25 yo needs to do so then. Or at least start saving a nice chunk and ramp up.

The typical household income earners are starting off at typical incomes (read modest) as young people, too.

These typical households aren't married at 25 either. They're typically single till 29.

That was my point.
I never referenced "typical" households or "typical" 25 year olds. I specifically said "those earning above the median household income who don't live in VHCOL areas."
The above median amount we've been talking about is 80k ish. That's not drastically above median hhi. That's not too high to be beyond a band of "typical America".

Typical America are typical at age 55 and at 25.

Again the whole point was what's reasonable, realistic. We disagree on reasonable, realistic expectations of middle America. That's ok.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat »

gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:33 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:10 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm

"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
The point of moving the goal posts was that in order to retire by 55 one has to save 30% of their salary for 30 years. That means they have to save 30% at age 25. The typical 25 yo needs to do so then. Or at least start saving a nice chunk and ramp up.

The typical household income earners are starting off at typical incomes (read modest) as young people, too.

These typical households aren't married at 25 either. They're typically single till 29.

That was my point.
I never referenced "typical" households or "typical" 25 year olds. I specifically said "those earning above the median household income who don't live in VHCOL areas."
The above median amount we've been talking about is 80k ish. That's not drastically above median hhi. That's not too high to be beyond a band of "typical America".

Typical America are typical at age 55 and at 25.

Again the whole point was what's reasonable, realistic. We disagree on reasonable, realistic expectations of middle America. That's ok.
"We disagree on reasonable, realistic expectations of middle America."
Realistically most people do not save anything. I have seen this during many attempts at setting up 401K plans at various companies.
Realistically most folks do not take advantage of OT, PT work or growth potentail - I have seen this at various companies that offered this.
There are many examples where a 'typical' person can earn extra for savings and spending.
I cannot find a year when I did not nake in excess of $25K per year - but my records only go back to 1980.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

Unemployment's Toll on Older Workers Is Worst in Half a Century

This is the first time in 50 years that older adults are experiencing higher unemployment than mid-career workers. And researchers don't think the higher rate is just the result of older people choosing not to work because they are worried about possible exposure to the coronavirus.

https://www.aarp.org/work/working-at-50 ... 3976898216
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
toocold
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by toocold »

CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:17 am Unemployment's Toll on Older Workers Is Worst in Half a Century

This is the first time in 50 years that older adults are experiencing higher unemployment than mid-career workers. And researchers don't think the higher rate is just the result of older people choosing not to work because they are worried about possible exposure to the coronavirus.

https://www.aarp.org/work/working-at-50 ... 3976898216
Being part of Gen X, I always thought that working until 65 is unrealistic, so I've always targeted 50 as a good age to leave the workplace if I choose to. I'm glad I did.
rich126
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by rich126 »

CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:17 am Unemployment's Toll on Older Workers Is Worst in Half a Century

This is the first time in 50 years that older adults are experiencing higher unemployment than mid-career workers. And researchers don't think the higher rate is just the result of older people choosing not to work because they are worried about possible exposure to the coronavirus.

https://www.aarp.org/work/working-at-50 ... 3976898216
And yet, at least prior to the mess in 2020, people kept telling folks they may need to work longer and there were plenty of jobs for senior people. My view is that saying it is a lot easier than doing it. I've been fortunate in still having desirable skills despite getting in my late 50s but I know that is largely dependent on my field and I don't plan that continuing into my late 60s.

In some cases I feel bad for the people but in other cases it is obvious the person did nothing to improve their skills and naively believed the company would take care of them.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by honduranhurricane »

Nervous times for us in out early 50's. Don't anticipate be offered a package in the near term, but have planned for the potential. Don't plan on sticking around past 60 anyway, but would like to get there, then take a bow.

Really highlights the need to have a plan in place, and execute against it early.

Thanks for the article.

The thread overall has been great to read.
invest4
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by invest4 »

I am nearing the threshold...soon to celebrate 48. In the midst of college "wave 1" with first two children..."wave 2" to start in a couple of years. I hope to weather the financing with employment intact and aspiration to be in position for retirement readiness at 60. Of course, very many unknowns along the way including future health, etc. Safe "travels" to all on their journey.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by wander »

If I lose a job in my 50s, I would retire.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by familythriftmd »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:05 am OP,

I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.

KlangFool
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:05 am OP,

I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.

KlangFool
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.

Thanks. But, as I said, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. It is not possible to tell the 30+ that it could happen to them.


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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by anoop »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:53 pm But, as I said, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. It is not possible to tell the 30+ that it could happen to them.
Certainly true for me. In my 20's and 30's, I never thought I'd be concerned about employability close to retirement, let alone in my late 40's. I used to see older folks getting laid off or being worried about getting laid off but now I get their dilemma. Even if they could have found other jobs, they were holding on because they were close to qualifying for retiree benefits.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

wander wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:48 am If I lose a job in my 50s, I would retire.
My plan is 52, so I'm hoping that I beat them to the punch. 8-)
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by Normchad »

anoop wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:01 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:53 pm But, as I said, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. It is not possible to tell the 30+ that it could happen to them.
Certainly true for me. In my 20's and 30's, I never thought I'd be concerned about employability close to retirement, let alone in my late 40's. I used to see older folks getting laid off or being worried about getting laid off but now I get their dilemma. Even if they could have found other jobs, they were holding on because they were close to qualifying for retiree benefits.
Its like having kids. You can read all you want about it, but you can't understand it until you are living it.

A lot of wisdom in these posts.

Somebody pointed out that typical people don't save, don't plan, don't pursue growth, etc. I have absolutiely seen that as well. I supervise people that make well into the 6 figures, and still live paycheck to paycheck somehow. I think a lot of people just YOLO their entire life....
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by WoodSpinner »

jmw wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:14 pm
Barkingsparrow wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:09 pm
jmw wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:28 pm When I was in my 20s in IT, I thought nearly all of the folks in their 50s were dinosaurs that needed to be eliminated. They could not or would not learn anything new. They wanted to do things the old way. Now that I'm nearing the 50s, I can freely admit I'm a dinosaur too that is not motivated to learn new things anymore. I don't have any mental decline. I even have a degree in CS and math. I just don't care anymore. I can fake it to make it for now. The kids in their 20s and 30s that graduated with CS are a lot smarter than the 20-somethings I worked with decades ago. My best skills are in areas that the market doesn't find that valuable anymore.

The dinosaurs in the 90s did not realize they were worthless. At least I can admit I'm an old T-rex and see what's coming. That being said, I won't resign or quit unless offered a package.
In my mid 50's I made a career change into Cloud technology which has served me well. My previous background, and still a desirable skill, made the transition relatively smooth. The "dinosaurs" that were laid off recently were all mainframe/legacy software types who were slow or unable to adapt to newer technology. That said, I'm tired and hoping I get pushed out with a package sooner than later.
I know two co-workers in their mid 50s in new solution architect positions who burned out and decided to retire in their first year as SA. Almost feel like it's better to try to lay low in easy legacy work and try to push the retirement date rather than burn out and retire early. Most of the solution architects are very stressed. In other words, there is a lot of value to coasting especially as I get close to retirement date.
My experience has been to never coast, ever.

I retired (by choice) at 58 after 30 years at a Mega Corp as a Solution Architect. What a great job! Lots of opportunity to analyze, influence, mentor and direct. Loved it. Big complex problems, big dollars, organizational complexity and a global workforce made it the best job I ever had.

Kept my technical chops current, Cloud, SaaS, Project Management, etc. Worked with folks all over the world and realized that they were smart, eager, and capable. I always had a mindset to be more productive and drive better decisions to earn my keep. It’s a big, global world out there and there are lots of talented people who would love a shot.

Left on my terms — I wanted to make sure I had time to enjoy Retirement while The body was willing.

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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by BrownEyedGirl_27 »

The thing I like most about your post was that you seem to have no ego or shame in holding down two part time jobs along with a regular job. That right there shows that you’re willing to take charge of your financial health no matter what unfortunate circumstances you face. It shows resilience, and you should certainly tell your story of overcoming adversity to future employers and your circle of friends.

I wish you the best in 2021 and hope that you’ll find a job where you won’t have to work two other jobs in your 50s. Congrats on your progress so far OP!
"Your mind has a mind of its own. At the very moment when you are most convinced of your own rationality, you may be feeling rather than thinking your way toward a decision.” | Jason Zweig
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by 816_Feet »

gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:33 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:10 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm

"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
The point of moving the goal posts was that in order to retire by 55 one has to save 30% of their salary for 30 years. That means they have to save 30% at age 25. The typical 25 yo needs to do so then. Or at least start saving a nice chunk and ramp up.

The typical household income earners are starting off at typical incomes (read modest) as young people, too.

These typical households aren't married at 25 either. They're typically single till 29.

That was my point.
I never referenced "typical" households or "typical" 25 year olds. I specifically said "those earning above the median household income who don't live in VHCOL areas."
The above median amount we've been talking about is 80k ish. That's not drastically above median hhi. That's not too high to be beyond a band of "typical America".

Typical America are typical at age 55 and at 25.

Again the whole point was what's reasonable, realistic. We disagree on reasonable, realistic expectations of middle America. That's ok.
I feel as though I've lived both of the realities described. I'm in my mid-late 30s. I spent my late 20s and early 30s paying off graduate school debt. I made $12-$16 an hour as an architect, and didn't make an adult salary until about year five. My experience roughly aligns with that of my peers. I've had a difficult time explaining this to my parents and in-laws. Starting salaries are low and persist. That's just the way it is. Retirement savings was meager during these years; didn't have money and 401k matches went away because of the 2008 recession.

We're saving 30% of our gross income/40% net now in a HCOL area. The biggest factors that allow this are 1) making more money 2) being a two income household.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by 816_Feet »

gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:33 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:10 pm
gr7070 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:05 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:19 pm
smitcat wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:33 pm

"Typical 25 year old, single, making $25k supposed to save 30%? 28 year old? Again unreasonable, unrealistic."
About half of the population is now getting a college degree by 25.
Our daughter is 25 and we know of no-one in her group that knows anyone who makes near $12/hr ($25K /yr) - actually min. wage is much higher than that in our area.
When gr7070 started moving the 'goal post' (i.e. moving from a household income of $80k to $25k) and not attending to what I originally said (i.e. those making above the median household income), I stopped responding to him/her. I still believe that it's totally doable for those not living in VHCOL areas making $80k to save 30% of their gross income if that's a real priority for them.
The point of moving the goal posts was that in order to retire by 55 one has to save 30% of their salary for 30 years. That means they have to save 30% at age 25. The typical 25 yo needs to do so then. Or at least start saving a nice chunk and ramp up.

The typical household income earners are starting off at typical incomes (read modest) as young people, too.

These typical households aren't married at 25 either. They're typically single till 29.

That was my point.
I never referenced "typical" households or "typical" 25 year olds. I specifically said "those earning above the median household income who don't live in VHCOL areas."
The above median amount we've been talking about is 80k ish. That's not drastically above median hhi. That's not too high to be beyond a band of "typical America".

Typical America are typical at age 55 and at 25.

Again the whole point was what's reasonable, realistic. We disagree on reasonable, realistic expectations of middle America. That's ok.
I feel as though I've lived both of the realities described. I'm in my mid-late 30s. I spent my late 20s and early 30s paying off graduate school debt. I made $12-$16 an hour as an architect, and didn't make an adult salary until about year five. My experience roughly aligns with that of my peers. I've had a difficult time explaining this to my parents and in-laws. Starting salaries are low and persist. That's just the way it is. Retirement savings was meager during these years; didn't have money and 401k matches went away because of the 2008 recession.

We're saving 30% of our gross income/40% net now in a HCOL area. The biggest factors that allow this are 1) making more money 2) being a two income household.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by familythriftmd »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:53 pm
Thanks. But, as I said, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. It is not possible to tell the 30+ that it could happen to them.

KlangFool
Well, count me as a 30+ who believes you. I'm only one person, though, so I get what you are saying.
If anything, I think the 30-somethings can see better now (even doctors, who used to suffer a job invincibility complex) how careers might not last as long as they used to think.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

BrownEyedGirl_27 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:51 am The thing I like most about your post was that you seem to have no ego or shame in holding down two part time jobs along with a regular job. That right there shows that you’re willing to take charge of your financial health no matter what unfortunate circumstances you face. It shows resilience, and you should certainly tell your story of overcoming adversity to future employers and your circle of friends.

I wish you the best in 2021 and hope that you’ll find a job where you won’t have to work two other jobs in your 50s. Congrats on your progress so far OP!
Thank you for your kind words, BrownEyedGirl_27. :beer

A bit of an update...

Coming up this May, I will once again make a transition. Or at least a bit of one from the routine I have been doing for the past three years following the full time job loss in May of 2018. The routine since that job loss has been for me to work 7 days a week between piecing together the part-time jobs during the academic year, and working about 4-5 days a week during the summer. Not horrible and certainly not something I am complaining about since I chose to do it in an effort to not lose any of the income so we could keep the momentum of our final years of saving at a higher level during the empty nest years.

The hours averaged only about 48 hours per week the first two years and the commute time for two of the jobs during the months of September to May added at least an hour a day in the car on top of the 48 at work. Summers have been much more relaxing and low key with only one part-time job during the summer months. Those months allowed me to actually experience or feel the semi-retired life. Hey, it wasn't bad! :mrgreen:

The Rise of the Semi-Retired Life

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/r ... m=referral

In 2020, due to Covid, most of the work I did was from home - so there was no commute time - and the part-time job in technology sales asked if I would work full-time from home during the fall/winter, so I took advantage of doing that for the extra salary and benefits (as well as all of the new training it has involved). The adjunct academic part-time jobs are still being done from home virtually (teaching) due to Covid, so no commutes last year and this saved on gas/lunch/snack costs and travel time for me. It certainly allowed us - as a dual income household - to sock away additional money this past year due to not spending much at all and making more money than originally anticipated. As a result, it was our highest savings year to date and ended up being more than double what our planned saving goals were going into 2020.

Regardless, a new development is that one of the adjunct part-time positions I have held the past three years will terminate at the end of this academic year in May due to declining student enrollment and no longer a need for the three adjunct positions in that department that they hired. This is a trend for my particular academic discipline and one that I have accepted is not in my favor to pursue. Now that I am age 59, I feel that the hanging on I have done the past three years by piecing together replacement income to stay focused and on track with our saving leaves us in a much better position financially. It also has kept me going mentally to learn new skills and challenges. I may have overlooked the importance of this three years ago, but now I get it.

Having experienced what the transition into the semi-retired life model looks like during the summers working fewer hours, I may consider entertaining it after this academic year is completed. Who knows? At this point, even cutting back to 5 days a week is going to feel like a relief once the month of May arrives! Regardless, it looks like your wish for me in 2021 is going to be coming true once the month of May rolls around and I get to transition back to 5 days a week from the current 7 days a week. DW has two more years to go before she qualifies for the full pension, so I do plan on staying in the game for at least that long in some shape or form of employment. Beyond that, I always like to leave the door open to a myriad of possibilities.

It has been a very difficult - if not devastating - time for many in their 50's and 60's who were severely impacted by Covid19 and lost their jobs (not to mention other ages as well). I think most of us wish for them a return to some form of employment as the economy opens back up and possibilities present themselves.

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by an_asker »

GCD wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:16 am
Regattamom wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:59 am I’ve been thinking about this exact issue lately. I am a stay at home parent and have been for a number of years. I feel some guilt over the fact that I have not been helping pad our savings account. And I worry about what would happen if my husband lost his job.

But on the other hand, I know that my husband would not have been able to take the incredible job he currently has without me agreeing to stay home. He travels all the time and there is no way it would have worked for our family if I had continued to work outside the home. And he makes a lot more now than we both made together while I was still working. We live well below our means and if he did lose his job, I could find some type of work to help fill the gap.
Once you get married you're a team. Your team is maximizing its income and providing a full-time parent at home for the kids. That's a win.
And maximizing social security as well, no? It is like a major win to have one person work alone and make as much (or more than) what both could have done combined!

Of course, this is true as long as the one earner can stay employed at that salary of course!
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by an_asker »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:10 pm [...]
I never referenced "typical" households or "typical" 25 year olds. I specifically said "those earning above the median household income who don't live in VHCOL areas."

And for the record, I was earning $100k when I was 28 and had already been married quite a while. Atypical? Yep, but it doesn't change what I said at all.
Haven't been following this discussion but this dialog hit a nerve.

Yes, I'm atypical. Not in the earning category but in the savings category.

That said, even out of my first job in the mid-1990s that paid me less than $35k (don't know how much that was relative to median earnings etc), I saved enough to deposit the max into 401k. It is a different story that I was a novice in the stock market and I did many questionable (and/or outright stupid) moves so not where I could have been.

And where could I have been? Well, I did a back of the envelope calculation - assuming all money was lump summed into an S&P500 fund starting at the end of 1995, a 401k that maxed out every year would now be at over $1 million on its own. Quite something, eh?
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by geerhardusvos »

[quote=CyclingDuo post_id=5710026 time=1609770785 user_id=115951]

A bit of an update...

Coming up this May, I will once again make a transition. Or at least a bit of one from the routine I have been doing for the past three years following the full time job loss in May of 2018. The routine since that job loss has been for me to work 7 days a week between piecing together the part-time jobs during the academic year, and working about 4-5 days a week during the summer. Not horrible and certainly not something I am complaining about since I chose to do it in an effort to not lose any of the income so we could keep the momentum of our final years of saving at a higher level during the empty nest years.
[/quote]

CyclingDuo, thanks for the update and nice to see your approach and weathering the storm.

This thread has been an encouragement to me to continue exercising and building new skill sets, staying resilient/flexible, keeping up with my connections, and (here’s the big one) being financially independent before my 50s (or 40s?) so that I am not impacted by ageism, etc.
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:33 am A bit of an update...

Coming up this May, I will once again make a transition. Or at least a bit of one from the routine I have been doing for the past three years following the full time job loss in May of 2018. The routine since that job loss has been for me to work 7 days a week between piecing together the part-time jobs during the academic year, and working about 4-5 days a week during the summer. Not horrible and certainly not something I am complaining about since I chose to do it in an effort to not lose any of the income so we could keep the momentum of our final years of saving at a higher level during the empty nest years.

The hours averaged only about 48 hours per week the first two years and the commute time for two of the jobs during the months of September to May added at least an hour a day in the car on top of the 48 at work. Summers have been much more relaxing and low key with only one part-time job during the summer months. Those months allowed me to actually experience or feel the semi-retired life. Hey, it wasn't bad! :mrgreen:

The Rise of the Semi-Retired Life

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/r ... m=referral

In 2020, due to Covid, most of the work I did was from home - so there was no commute time - and the part-time job in technology sales asked if I would work full-time from home during the fall/winter, so I took advantage of doing that for the extra salary and benefits (as well as all of the new training it has involved). The adjunct academic part-time jobs are still being done from home virtually (teaching) due to Covid, so no commutes last year and this saved on gas/lunch/snack costs and travel time for me. It certainly allowed us - as a dual income household - to sock away additional money this past year due to not spending much at all and making more money than originally anticipated. As a result, it was our highest savings year to date and ended up being more than double what our planned saving goals were going into 2020.

Regardless, a new development is that one of the adjunct part-time positions I have held the past three years will terminate at the end of this academic year in May due to declining student enrollment and no longer a need for the three adjunct positions in that department that they hired. This is a trend for my particular academic discipline and one that I have accepted is not in my favor to pursue. Now that I am age 59, I feel that the hanging on I have done the past three years by piecing together replacement income to stay focused and on track with our saving leaves us in a much better position financially. It also has kept me going mentally to learn new skills and challenges. I may have overlooked the importance of this three years ago, but now I get it.

Having experienced what the transition into the semi-retired life model looks like during the summers working fewer hours, I may consider entertaining it after this academic year is completed. Who knows? At this point, even cutting back to 5 days a week is going to feel like a relief once the month of May arrives! Regardless, it looks like your wish for me in 2021 is going to be coming true once the month of May rolls around and I get to transition back to 5 days a week from the current 7 days a week. DW has two more years to go before she qualifies for the full pension, so I do plan on staying in the game for at least that long in some shape or form of employment. Beyond that, I always like to leave the door open to a myriad of possibilities.

It has been a very difficult - if not devastating - time for many in their 50's and 60's who were severely impacted by Covid19 and lost their jobs (not to mention other ages as well). I think most of us wish for them a return to some form of employment as the economy opens back up and possibilities present themselves.

CyclingDuo
Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that things have continued to go well for you (as much as it seems possible given the trend in your discipline). Moving to working 'only' 5 days a week will be a nice change.

The markets finished 2020 really strong, so I'm sure that that helped you get closer to your goal.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

geerhardusvos wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:32 amCyclingDuo, thanks for the update and nice to see your approach and weathering the storm.

This thread has been an encouragement to me to continue exercising and building new skill sets, staying resilient/flexible, keeping up with my connections, and (here’s the big one) being financially independent before my 50s (or 40s?) so that I am not impacted by ageism, etc.
Yes, this is absolutely one of the main points of the thread! Getting yourself into a financial and mental position so that you have options in your 50's (or early 60's) if the career path takes a turn that you formally were not expecting. It's better to expect the possibility of it and be prepared. That way, if nothing happens - you're golden. If something happens, you're also golden.

:sharebeer

I do feel humbled that I have been able to eek out up to this point a string of three more "OMY's" as we have reached a point that feels much more comfortable mentally and financially for our future goals than I felt back in 2018. I really always did have a goal of working up until at least 2023 when my wife retires and qualifies for her full pension. I simply had not planned on it being in the fashion that it has turned out to be. Even some nice new options have unfolded that I had no idea were in the realm of possibility in 2018. It's nice when the fog lifts...

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by CyclingDuo »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:05 am
Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that things have continued to go well for you (as much as it seems possible given the trend in your discipline). Moving to working 'only' 5 days a week will be a nice change.

The markets finished 2020 really strong, so I'm sure that that helped you get closer to your goal.
Thanks, willthrill81!

Well, in terms of continuing to be able to invest additional money month in and month out since 2018, pay off the mortgage and avoid having to dip into any of our savings as replacement income to cover household expenses thanks to finding replacement income on my part and being wise with our budgeting - it has helped keep us on track with our saving goals for sure. The needle moved all around, but mostly in the right direction during 2020 for us as we held on with what seemed like a vice grip. Of course, that only represents one moment in time for a long term investor. We shall see how the investments do over the next couple of years after the usual corrections along the way as we approach the days leading up to when the pension starts in 2023 and beyond. In the meantime, we just keep shoveling in what we can from our current income while we have the chance.

Professionally, considering the entire world of performing arts shut down during Covid and resulted in a lot of unemployed performers throughout the globe that most likely lost their apartments, benefits, income, lifestyle, etc... - there will certainly not be a dearth of younger candidates vying for any teaching positions in my discipline that do happen to open up as they will be willing to teach for entry level, junior faculty level salaries. Having now experienced three years of what the adjunct teaching world and pay is like without any benefits - there appears to be some room for a bit of reform within that segment of the academic community. :shock:

CyclingDuo
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

816_Feet wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:26 am
I feel as though I've lived both of the realities described. I'm in my mid-late 30s. I spent my late 20s and early 30s paying off graduate school debt. I made $12-$16 an hour as an architect, and didn't make an adult salary until about year five. My experience roughly aligns with that of my peers. I've had a difficult time explaining this to my parents and in-laws. Starting salaries are low and persist. That's just the way it is. Retirement savings was meager during these years; didn't have money and 401k matches went away because of the 2008 recession.

We're saving 30% of our gross income/40% net now in a HCOL area. The biggest factors that allow this are 1) making more money 2) being a two income household.
I was comp-sci and pre-Arch in college and a friend was 3 years ahead of me and was really good winning design awards and stuff. He had a crapastic first job and I quickly bailed on architecture.

We were both up at 2 AM finishing projects but I was already making more as an intern than he was going to make as a grad...

So for my kids, whatever their employment outlook at 50, I tell them their major has to have a positive ROI in terms of both time and money...
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by willthrill81 »

CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:20 pmHaving now experienced three years of what the adjunct teaching world and pay is like without any benefits - there appears to be some room for a bit of reform within that segment of the academic community. :shock:
For the benefit of others who may be reading this, adjuncts are usually in the most tenuous teaching position possible in higher ed. Typically, they only work from one semester/quarter to the next with no contract at all and very often with no benefits whatsoever unless they are teaching enough courses to qualify for benefits. And at many institutions, they are employed solely at the discretion of the chair of the department in which they teach. The amount that they are paid is often a pittance, especially in comparison to full-time faculty. Consequently, many administrators love adjuncts because they are relatively cheap and can be 'kicked to the curb' easily and quickly, unlike full-time faculty, and in many disciplines, the number of tenured faculty have been waning for years, while the number of adjunct faculty have been increasing. Accrediting bodies are generally not favorable to 'excessive' use of adjuncts, and that has been one of the few reasons why many institutions have not moved almost entirely toward using primarily adjuncts, though some have done just that.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by nigel_ht »

familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:05 am OP,

I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.

KlangFool
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by KlangFool »

nigel_ht wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:40 pm
familythriftmd wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:36 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:05 am OP,

I shake my head when the 30 something assumes that they will be fully-employed when their kids go to college. With that assumption, they cut down their retirement saving and put a substantial amount of their money into the 529s.
Then, they are in their 40s and 50s. And, they were laid off while their kids go to college. They can no longer afford to spend that amount of money in college education. But, they are stuck.

On top of all this, many of those folks did not max up their tax-deferred accounts. Hence, they were paying the full marginal tax rate in order to put their money into the 529 for the "tax-free" growth.

But, I am fighting a losing battle anyhow. Why and how would a 30 something believe that they would not be employed continuously until retirement age? Those unemployed and under-employed 50s folks must be lazy and not up to date and so on. This does not apply to me. Age discrimination only applies to others.

KlangFool
I love this post! How canny. You really opened up the logic in such a concise manner as to the downsides of 529s at the cost of other savings vehicles. I do like the "oxygen mask on yourself first" imagery I hear from time to time, but this really helps with the employment example. And a poster below mentions that the 529s do show up on financial aid, which makes sense, but I did not know that.
Meh, helping my kids have a shot at a reasonable life is my responsibility as a parent. Whether in a 529 or some other means finding a way to help with college comes with the territory.

With money already earmarked in a 529 that may mean community college and local state school with just the funds saved and no way to stretch.

Also if you become unemployed I guess the silver lining is the odds of needs based help goes up...
nigel_ht,

Except for those that super funded their 529 and do not have enough money elsewhere. The odds of need based help is handicapped by the 529. We had someone posted in the forum.

I am laid off and my kids are going to college. I have 200K to 300K in 529 and 200K to 300K in my retirement account. I cannot afford to pay fo the college but my money is stuck in the 529. What am I supposed to do now?


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Re: Losing a job in your 50's...

Post by smitcat »

willthrill81 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:34 pm
CyclingDuo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:20 pmHaving now experienced three years of what the adjunct teaching world and pay is like without any benefits - there appears to be some room for a bit of reform within that segment of the academic community. :shock:
For the benefit of others who may be reading this, adjuncts are usually in the most tenuous teaching position possible in higher ed. Typically, they only work from one semester/quarter to the next with no contract at all and very often with no benefits whatsoever unless they are teaching enough courses to qualify for benefits. And at many institutions, they are employed solely at the discretion of the chair of the department in which they teach. The amount that they are paid is often a pittance, especially in comparison to full-time faculty. Consequently, many administrators love adjuncts because they are relatively cheap and can be 'kicked to the curb' easily and quickly, unlike full-time faculty, and in many disciplines, the number of tenured faculty have been waning for years, while the number of adjunct faculty have been increasing. Accrediting bodies are generally not favorable to 'excessive' use of adjuncts, and that has been one of the few reasons why many institutions have not moved almost entirely toward using primarily adjuncts, though some have done just that.
When I taught as an adjunct in a very limited capacity for about one year many years back I did not know most of this. When the state college that I was at began to limit and reverse pay levels with full time faculty it became an issues with some folks. After a short stint there I was already set to leave to help care for one of our parents but I have heard that the push to limit full time faculty total compensation and extend the use of adjuncts and experts continues to expand to this day.
FWIW - when I coached one HS varsity sport I received $9.5K , the adjunct spot paid about 2/3rds of that a few years later.
Neither of these activities were done for the money and I contributed most of it back to the folks I was working with at the time
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