TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

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deanmoriarty
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TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Hello

For 2018, I owe some tax penalty due to some large capital gains I received towards the end of Q3.

As soon as I received the gain (which was unexpected), I immediately maximized my W2 withholding to get as close as possible to the safe harbor limit before the end of the year (based on 110% my 2017 income). Unfortunately, that wasn't enough, and so I also did a $10,000 estimated tax payment in Q3 to try to minimize the penalty. I have no other estimated payments throughout the year.

I was trying to insert all this information in TurboTax, and it tells me I owe ~$300 in penalties, and asks me if I want to include them as part of the payment I'll send along with the tax return, or if I want to let the IRS bill me later. It also asks me if I want to go through the schedule 2210 AI, which indeed might make my tax penalty disappear, but I don't want to do that, because I have a tax situation complicated enough (dividends, AMT, ...) and I don't want to do four different returns for all the quarters, I'd rather just pay the penalty.

However, if I select "let the IRS bill me later", TurboTax generates a dummy form 2210 (marked as DO NOT FILE, since I don't have to file it) which shows me how TurboTax arrived to the ~$300 calculation: the problem is, the software is populating the section III (Short Method) rather than the section IV (Regular Method), which is left completely empty: it seems wrong, since the $10,000 was paid only in Q3, and so it definitely didn't satisfy the requirements of the short method, which need the payments to be done in equal installments over the year. So, under line 12 ("Enter the total amount of estimated tax payments"), the software puts a single $10,000.

TurboTax clearly knows that the payment was done in Q3, because under the "Tax Payments Worksheet", it lists the $10,000 payment under the Q3 section, which reinforces my belief that it should have used the regular method, leading to a penalty calculation higher than $300.

I know I can let the IRS bill me later, but still, from a software I paid I would expect to be able to tell me exactly what my penalty would be, and not just guess $300 using the wrong section of the form (especially because if I select "pay now" I would expect to not have a second bill come later), and makes me wonder if there are other errors!

Am I missing something?

Thanks
Last edited by deanmoriarty on Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm

I can confirm that the behavior happens even if I just start a completely new tax return with the simplest situation I can imagine, thus removing as much noise as possible:

1) Choose to not import anything from 2017
2) Insert one single interest income of $250,000
3) Insert one single Q3 payment of $30,000

When going over the "underpayment penalty" section and refusing to use the annualized income method, it still uses the "short method" in the form 2210 that is used to calculate what penalty should be expected.

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deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:45 am

I also posted on the TurboTax online forum, pretty much the same exact message above with minor edits (but no links, no personal references, no email addresses, ...), and about five minutes later the message was automatically deleted (without even sending me a notification, so I actually lost that copy) and my forum account is now locked for "investigation of potentially violating the terms of service". This is crazy :oops:

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Goldrush
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by Goldrush » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:25 am

Maybe this will get fixed when TurboTax updates form 2210 on 02/14/2019?

https://care-cdn.prodsupportsite.a.intu ... idual.html

Topic Author
deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:34 am

Goldrush wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:25 am
Maybe this will get fixed when TurboTax updates form 2210 on 02/14/2019?

https://care-cdn.prodsupportsite.a.intu ... idual.html
Oh wow, that might well be it, I wasn't even aware of that page, I usually rely on the starting TT window which tells me which forms are available and which don't, and form 2210 isn't there.

I'll make sure to post an update after next week.

Thanks

kaneohe
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by kaneohe » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:03 pm

Maybe you can try doing the regular method manually. It assumes equal "quarterly" income so it's only like doing a single tax return instead for 4 w/Sch AI :happy Here's a crude analysis. The regular method assumes equal quarterly income so IRS wants equal payments to match. Assuming your numbers are correct for meeting safe harbor, you should have paid your estimated tax at 2500 each quarter but instead paid 10K in Q3. You were delinquent in Q1 for 2.5K and also the same for Q2. In Q3 you removed the delinquency .Your penalty is 5% on Q1payment for 2 quarters and on Q2 payment for 1 quarter so interest on 2.5K at 5% for3 quarters of a yr or about
$90.

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SpringMan
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by SpringMan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:57 pm

I purchased TurboTax Deluxe on an optical disk and ran into a different problem. I could e-file the federal tax but not the state. There were two options, pay an extra 39.95 for processing fee, or use a credit card and pay 19.95 fee. I tried the credit card option but the final Continue button was grayed out. I was on the phone with TT support and they had no fix. I printed out the forms and used snail mail as a work around.
Best Wishes, SpringMan

lstone19
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by lstone19 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:01 pm

deanmoriarty wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:45 am
I also posted on the TurboTax online forum, pretty much the same exact message above with minor edits (but no links, no personal references, no email addresses, ...), and about five minutes later the message was automatically deleted (without even sending me a notification, so I actually lost that copy) and my forum account is now locked for "investigation of potentially violating the terms of service". This is crazy :oops:
I agree, that is crazy. But I've found the TT forums worthless since the format changes they made a couple of years ago. I used to regularly participate - now rarely.

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deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:46 am

Sadly, TurboTax updated (and the availability of form 2210 is now shown on the website), but the software is still using the wrong section of the form.

I've grown incredibly frustrated of TurboTax over the past few days, to the point where I just purchased H&R Block Deluxe and will try to use it this weekend, hoping to get a smoother experience. The other incredibly annoying issues I found were:

- I have to make an adjustment to some capital gains via form 8949, and the only way to enter such adjustment is to edit the 8949 forms manually: fine, I can deal with that. The problem is that those manual adjustments are not carried over to the AMT portion of the capital gain calculations, and there doesn't seem a way to manually add those since the relevant portions of the AMT forms are non-editable (double clicking on it doesn't do anything). So, my calculated AMT portion is much larger than what it should be, which prevents me from recouping some prior AMT credit I have!

- Because of employer stock, I have some very large amount of shares that I traded for pennies (think in the order of 500,000). I already knew that TurboTax doesn't let you enter amount of shares higher than 99,999, so I split my transaction into 6 pieces, but what I found is that even doing so, you get a cryptic "the computed value is too large" at the very end of the review phase just before filing, with no clear message pointing to the specific form where the issue happens. By spending a bunch of time doing trial and error, I found out that the real TurboTax limit seems to be 49,999 shares, so I will have to split my transaction into 11 pieces. This is most definitely a software bug since all the numbers that are calculated on the 99,999 transaction don't contain any truncation, they exactly match my manual calculation (I keep everything tracked in my own spreadsheets).

seymore92
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by seymore92 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:54 am

deanmoriarty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:46 am
Sadly, TurboTax updated (and the availability of form 2210 is now shown on the website), but the software is still using the wrong section of the form.
Can you clarify? On the Mac download I didn’t notice an issue with 2210 and claiming the special “85% Waiver” in box A, using yesterday’s TT update

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deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:57 am

seymore92 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:54 am
deanmoriarty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:46 am
Sadly, TurboTax updated (and the availability of form 2210 is now shown on the website), but the software is still using the wrong section of the form.
Can you clarify? On the Mac download I didn’t notice an issue with 2210 and claiming the special “85% Waiver” in box A, using yesterday’s TT update
As I said in the original post, even after yesterday's update TurboTax is always using the "short method" on the generated form 2210 (part III), calculating an incorrect penalty amount.

This is because in my situation I have W2 income and one single estimated tax payment in Q3, so the requirements for using the "short method" are not satisfied, since the short method assumes equally made estimated payments over the quarters, which is not my case, and it seems to me TurboTax should use the "regular method" (part IV), which is made exactly for that (and that's what I do in my home made spreadsheet to calculate the penalty).

I correctly reported the estimated tax payment amount in the other section, and I see it being correctly included on form 1040, but for some reason form 2210 still uses the wrong section.

lstone19
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by lstone19 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:05 pm

deanmoriarty wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm
I can confirm that the behavior happens even if I just start a completely new tax return with the simplest situation I can imagine, thus removing as much noise as possible:

1) Choose to not import anything from 2017
2) Insert one single interest income of $250,000
3) Insert one single Q3 payment of $30,000

When going over the "underpayment penalty" section and refusing to use the annualized income method, it still uses the "short method" in the form 2210 that is used to calculate what penalty should be expected.
I am unable to replicate your result on TT H&B Desktop. I tried the same thing you claim to have done. If I say "Pay It Now" (as opposed to "Let the IRS Bill Me Later"), it includes a penalty but does not generate a 2210. If I force it to generate a 2210 using "Open Form", it populates Part IV (Regular Method), not Part III (Short Method).

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deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:12 pm

lstone19 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:05 pm
deanmoriarty wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:18 pm
I can confirm that the behavior happens even if I just start a completely new tax return with the simplest situation I can imagine, thus removing as much noise as possible:

1) Choose to not import anything from 2017
2) Insert one single interest income of $250,000
3) Insert one single Q3 payment of $30,000

When going over the "underpayment penalty" section and refusing to use the annualized income method, it still uses the "short method" in the form 2210 that is used to calculate what penalty should be expected.
I am unable to replicate your result on TT H&B Desktop. I tried the same thing you claim to have done. If I say "Pay It Now" (as opposed to "Let the IRS Bill Me Later"), it includes a penalty but does not generate a 2210. If I force it to generate a 2210 using "Open Form", it populates Part IV (Regular Method), not Part III (Short Method).
Well, first of all, thank you very much for engaging in this, you're way more helpful than any Intuit support!

What I did was not clicking on "Pay it now" (because, as you noticed, it doesn't generate a form 2210, and I didn't even know you could force one). What I did was clicking on "Let the IRS bill me later". If you choose that scenario, you should see the form 2210 generated under your forms section (marked as "do not file"), and the resulting penalty uses the short method.

I will indeed try forcing generating a 2210 form with "pay now" as soon as I get to my home computer, and see if the bug is limited to the "let the IRS bill me later" section.

lstone19
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by lstone19 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:34 pm

deanmoriarty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:12 pm
Well, first of all, thank you very much for engaging in this, you're way more helpful than any Intuit support!

What I did was not clicking on "Pay it now" (because, as you noticed, it doesn't generate a form 2210, and I didn't even know you could force one). What I did was clicking on "Let the IRS bill me later". If you choose that scenario, you should see the form 2210 generated under your forms section (marked as "do not file"), and the resulting penalty uses the short method.
Yes, I see that now. Oddly, mine does not say Do Not File. But, if I try to print the return for filing, it does not include 2210 nor does it include a penalty amount on Form 1040. So it appears to be creating a meaningless 2210 that it ignores. I'd dare say the bug is that it's creating this 2210 and then, since it's doing so under the wrong conditions, using the wrong data and section of the form since the code was not written for this scenario.

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deanmoriarty
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by deanmoriarty » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:45 pm

lstone19 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:34 pm
deanmoriarty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:12 pm
Well, first of all, thank you very much for engaging in this, you're way more helpful than any Intuit support!

What I did was not clicking on "Pay it now" (because, as you noticed, it doesn't generate a form 2210, and I didn't even know you could force one). What I did was clicking on "Let the IRS bill me later". If you choose that scenario, you should see the form 2210 generated under your forms section (marked as "do not file"), and the resulting penalty uses the short method.
Yes, I see that now. Oddly, mine does not say Do Not File. But, if I try to print the return for filing, it does not include 2210 nor does it include a penalty amount on Form 1040. So it appears to be creating a meaningless 2210 that it ignores. I'd dare say the bug is that it's creating this 2210 and then, since it's doing so under the wrong conditions, using the wrong data and section of the form since the code was not written for this scenario.
Thanks again. I confirm that if I select "pay now", the hidden 2210 uses the right calculation. It's still a mystery why the other selection causes that wrong form to show up, but now that I know, I'll just safely delete it.

Now back to the other issues! Quickly inspecting H&R Block it seems like it's much less developed than TurboTax, for few things that I need (e.g. form 8801) it just brings up the respective forms and says to fill them out manually, whereas TurboTax attempts to fill them via the interview process. It's going to be fun :oops:

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RickBoglehead
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by RickBoglehead » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:32 am

In my initial run of a relative's taxes, TurboTax Deluxe (download) created a 2210. I have updated the software and ran through the entire return again, and there is a $5 refund coming (whereas in my initial run there was tax owed). 2210 gets listed in the forms it would print if I mailed it in. If I delete the 2210, it recreates it.

Tax owed is $5,695.
Tax paid in 4 equal installments is $5,700 (note - this was incorrect the first time through due to Quicken download, and has now been corrected).
Tax refund is $5

I finally went in and manually overrode the box to be "No", but then you can't e-file.

It's clearly driven by the new 85% rule. I plan on e-filing and letting the IRS yell at TurboTax for creating an unnecessary form.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:24 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:32 am
In my initial run of a relative's taxes, TurboTax Deluxe (download) created a 2210. I have updated the software and ran through the entire return again, and there is a $5 refund coming (whereas in my initial run there was tax owed). 2210 gets listed in the forms it would print if I mailed it in. If I delete the 2210, it recreates it.

Tax owed is $5,695.
Tax paid in 4 equal installments is $5,700 (note - this was incorrect the first time through due to Quicken download, and has now been corrected).
Tax refund is $5

I finally went in and manually overrode the box to be "No", but then you can't e-file.

It's clearly driven by the new 85% rule. I plan on e-filing and letting the IRS yell at TurboTax for creating an unnecessary form.
I'm seeing the same thing on a relatives return. Four equal quarterly payment, no withholding, small refund. A 2210 is generated.

Oddly, with my return, combination of withholding plus estimated payments, no 2210 is generated.

I'll monitor this thread and see if someone posts that TT has updates. But the IRS will just have to deal with the extraneous form.

Snapper
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by Snapper » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:10 pm

The issue is not just that it generates a 2210, but the form is incorrect and cannot be corrected or deleted. Because of the issues IRS keeps rejecting the return. I cannot correct it or delete it for electronic filing. Last time I tried to file the program said I had no further issues and could file. It almost instantly kicked back as rejected. Customer service is useless. I can always file by mail but that is really crappy.

sil2017
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by sil2017 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Snapper-

Spent my whole evening and this morning reading about the error.

Supposedly, it was fixed in late February, then moved to March 1st and now to March 8th. I am waiting till March 8th to see if I can delete form 2210.

I rather delete it properly then going through the route of adding 'zero" to my 2017 tax liability to get rid of form 2210.

Found this:

Form 2210 Required but no Penalty is Applied


Some customers are seeing the waiver box marked on Form 2210 (Underpayment of Estimated Tax by Individuals, Estates, and Trusts), despite the fact that they don't actually need to include Form 2210 with their return.

Exemption Statement Rejection
Those whose e-file was rejected because there was no exemption statement attached may now e-file.

Unable to Delete Form 2210
If you need to delete Form 2210, we are still working on resolving that. That issue is scheduled to be fixed in an update that is currently planned to be released on 3/8/2019.

Grasshopper
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by Grasshopper » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:41 pm

I filed 0n 2/16 TT premiere, I had a 2210 popup with a $466 refund with a $5 penalty, the 85% checked and no 2210 generated even in the worksheets. Who knows. :beer Oh Fed accepted in 1 hour.

Snapper
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by Snapper » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:24 pm

I gave up and filed paper. I was overpaid but program wanted me to write a statement as to why I should not be penalized. Ridiculous. Did I mention the customer service was awful. On line for an hour with a person who obviously had no idea what I was talking about or what a tax form was but repeatedly assured me she would assist me with my problem. I was actually surprised I could get someone on the phone, but there was no need to bother.

coldnose
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by coldnose » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:04 am

sil2017 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:08 pm
Snapper-

Spent my whole evening and this morning reading about the error.

Supposedly, it was fixed in late February, then moved to March 1st and now to March 8th. I am waiting till March 8th to see if I can delete form 2210.

I rather delete it properly then going through the route of adding 'zero" to my 2017 tax liability to get rid of form 2210.

Found this:

Form 2210 Required but no Penalty is Applied


Some customers are seeing the waiver box marked on Form 2210 (Underpayment of Estimated Tax by Individuals, Estates, and Trusts), despite the fact that they don't actually need to include Form 2210 with their return.

Exemption Statement Rejection
Those whose e-file was rejected because there was no exemption statement attached may now e-file.

Unable to Delete Form 2210
If you need to delete Form 2210, we are still working on resolving that. That issue is scheduled to be fixed in an update that is currently planned to be released on 3/8/2019.
This is my situation also. I had a small withholding and 4 equal estimated payments resulting in a total refund of about $6K. However TT generates the 2210 with the Box A waiver request (85% Waiver). I don't understand why I need a waiver request when I didn't underpay my taxes and don't need the form.

I will wait until mid-March to file and see if TT fixes this by then.

Can you tell me where you found the above reference? Thanks.

Bacchus01
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:03 am

Why not just have a CPA do it? Seems like less headache with a semi-complicated return.

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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by aristotelian » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:54 am

Snapper wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:24 pm
I gave up and filed paper. I was overpaid but program wanted me to write a statement as to why I should not be penalized. Ridiculous. Did I mention the customer service was awful. On line for an hour with a person who obviously had no idea what I was talking about or what a tax form was but repeatedly assured me she would assist me with my problem. I was actually surprised I could get someone on the phone, but there was no need to bother.
Lol, I did the statement but still couldn't get it to file. I just hit print and filed by mail.

retiredjg
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by retiredjg » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:22 am

I filed last week (Feb27). At first it was refused. A software update fixed it and it filed as it should. I use downloaded TT, not online.

I saw another thread that said this problem was fixed last week on the evening of Feb 26. Guess not. :?

anoop
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by anoop » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:48 am

I had a similar problem with my 2210. I posted on misc.taxes.moderated
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... gVa2P72qW8

Short story -- after TT updated the 2210 on Feb 14, it stopped requiring me to check the box that would have the IRS compute the penalty. Instead it wanted me to enter a comment which I didn't quite understand but I just did something, based on what the TT accountant told me, and sent it off. I figure if the IRS wants something more they will let me know.
Last edited by anoop on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ret2018
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by Ret2018 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:27 am

I have spent hours on the phone with TT support trying to get resolution on multiple bugs in the program (using home and business desktop). I'm particularly concerned that support keeps asking to remote into my computer, asking me to provide copy of my return, and to allow them to "push" a copy of TT to my computer. I said no to all of the above.

Posted elsewhere about a specific problem I was having with the social security tax calculation worksheet. Regarding tax due and penalties, I
1) am unable to identify a worksheet that calculates the penalities;
2) am not given a choice to compute penalty myself or allow IRS to do this; and
3) have discovered that TT calculates the penalty assuming that you pay up on 4/15.
The only way to correct for #3 is to enter an "other estimated payment" in the worksheet. However, that screws up the bottom part of the 1040.

I think I'm probably going back to a spreadsheet next year. I've spent more time trying to get TT to work properly than it actually takes to complete my tax return.

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RickBoglehead
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by RickBoglehead » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:15 am

Supposedly the 2210 bug was fixed in a March 6th program update.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, PHEV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.

CFM300
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by CFM300 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:32 am

The March 6th update (Windows desktop version) fixed the problem for me. Form 2210 was automatically removed after I ran the updates. Which in my case is correct.

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: TurboTax and form 2210: software bug?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:42 am

Fixed it for me, too. It was my mom's return and she already mailed it in, but the extra form shouldn't hurt anything.

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