Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

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Mlm
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Mlm »

If you want to go 50/50 on the deed with your son...have at it. However your son should consult his own attorney and obtain the mortgage in his name only if unmarried.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son

Post by reggiesimpson »

ThatGuy wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:45 am
reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:40 amAs i stated repeatedly. I am looking for BH advice. I didnt come here completely ignorant with a Tabula Raza mentality. Just because i have countered almost every argument that finds fault with this concept doesnt mean i dont want to listen or that i havent sought other advice and thought through this entire process. I have taken many notes on the advice given hear and will act on it. Thank you.
reggie
Can you give an example of a piece of advice within this thread that has changed your thinking? Because from what I've read, you're ignoring the excellent points brought up by several posters.

I get it, no one likes their brilliant idea shot down by others. Lord knows I've gotten overly defensive in discussions. But this conversation would be much more informative if it felt more like a two-way sharing of thoughts.
I was up till 2am last night sharing thoughts and i have responded to every post. I came here with an open mind. But because i havent read a cogent argument for changing my thinking on this doesnt mean i havent learned anything helpful. I have and have notes to prove it. I need more legal advice, i need to work out the details of ongoing home maintenance both financial and physical with my son and gf. Multiple other scenarios like buying then renting it back to them etc. will be explored. All of which has been discussed already but needs deeper talks. I am not so egotistical that i think this concept is flawless. It isnt. But why do posters on here think that their concept is so superior in quality and quantity that i am supposed to role over with the majority view? I and my wife dont want live in an over 55 in Florida. Been there done that. We dont want to downsize to a smaller house in this community or go to a college town for free classes. We dont want to rent a place near our son when we wont be living there full time. This is the best we could come up with for the remainder of our lives. We see it as fulfilling, helpful and a great use of Grandparents. Both hers and us. Thank you.
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

jaydub71 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:46 am
Jags4186 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:36 am There are just two much better options.

1) gift them the money
2) buy the house, let them “rent to own”

You don’t want to do 1) because you want control. You don’t want to do 2) because they aren’t beholden to you (no “skin in the game”)

So you’ve developed an incredibly subprime way of accomplishing your goal.

That’s the pushback you’re getting.

Here’s a suggestion. Show your son and the girlfriend this thread and see what they think. Maybe they haven’t thought about all this.
Rent to own is an interesting idea that I think you should investigate further.
Yes we will. Thank you.
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

robphoto wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:53 am For me, the big problem is, they're not married!

They haven't permanently committed to each other; why would you fund a situation that only works if they eventually get engaged, marry, and don't divorce?

Working within the resources that you have is important for building the marriage partnership; I've seen situations where the financial support by parents seemed to both get the couple into higher mortgage, etc. than they should have, and make separating easier!

Even though your name isn't on the mortgage, if they don't keep up with it you're going to be looking at losing your investment; you may end up paying just to not lose the house. In that way it's very similar to the question, "Should I co-sign for my kid's car loan?" (answer: never)
Yes i hear you. My son, however, is only taking on a mortgage they can both afford. He understands the math involved and is put down significant cash himself. They plan on getting married but he will get a prenup before. They are both clearheaded and are aware of the possibility of divorce. I will get back what we invested if sold. But i need clarification in more eventualities. Thank you
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm Reggie,
I wish you and your family all the best in this decision. On paper it all looks like a pretty good idea, but statistically the odds of this plan going well is very poor. It is just a fact as there are so many things that can go wrong with a high chance of failure when adding them all up. I hope you reconsider this decision for everyone’s sake, but if you are still going ahead, once again I wish you the best and that everything works out as planned.
Thank you. I have no illusions and that why i am still asking questions. Thank you
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

nasrullah wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:28 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:56 pm My wife and i plan on buying a home with our son and his girlfriend in the near future. We will contribute 50% of the sale price to the purchase and my son and GF will come up with the other half via their assets and mortgage combo. We plan on contributing the 50% and not making it a gift or a loan. The stipulation is that our name goes on the title as 50% owner and there be an in law apartment so when we visit ( he is out of state) we have a place to stay instead of airbnb and hotels. I would appreciate BH learned comments on the matter. Thank you.
reggie
Did something similar with my father. Do not do this. Period.

We haven’t spoken in over a decade.
Im sorry to hear that. I think our situation is mitigated by the fact we are not living there. Only visiting from time to time. thank you.
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

HueyLD wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:39 pm What would you do if the girlfriend sold her 1/4 ownership to an old boyfriend or her mother? That's what tenants in common means.
Well they do plan on getting married but i will ask that question with our atty. Thank you.
reggie.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Luckywon wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:42 pm I have not read this thread in detail so I apologize if anything that I say his redundant.

I was once conservator and then executor for a relative who had property in another state. Even though the property was not worth much, it created a nightmare administration wise. As conservator, I had to deal with probate court issues in two states instead of one.

After the relative died, I discovered the state in which the property was in had different estate and inheritance laws, which necessitated spending a small fortune in time and money hiring a lawyer to address these, including completing a federal estate return, which would not have been necessary under the laws of the state that he actually lived in. Trust me, a federal estate tax return is something you never went to put someone through. I'd die before i did that. 🤡

So as part of your diligence look into the details of how this would affect distribution of your estate. Perhaps there will be no big issue. It depends on the states involved.

I can think of probably 25 other reasons why this would be a bad or very bad idea ( I literally smacked my forehead after I read the first few lines of your post) but will not list these because they are mostly obvious and probably addressed above.
We went with tenants in Common as the best legal advice to protect our contribution. Further, our estate atty said to keep it as individuals and not create a Trust. At some point will will transfer our ownership to our son maybe with the right to lifetime residence if it comes to that. Thank you for the legal concerns. This is one of the primary reasons i came to BH for advice.
Thank you
reggie.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

straws46 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:44 pm Make sure you understand the legalities. I never heard of "joint tenants in common." There is joint tenancy with right of survivorship, and there is tenancy in common in which each fractional share is separately owned. I doubt a typical mortgage loan would be supported by tenancy in common. The only way it would work would be for you to subordinate the fee interest in your half, but that isn't a standard mortgage product. With a joint tenancy you would be required to sign the mortgage document but would be exculpated from the loan, but you would not be exculpated from all the other covenants and agreements such as to maintain the property and pay the taxes and keep it insured. Get good legal advise before you do this.
Thank you. This is one aspect of BH i was hoping to tap in to. If i said the "joint" i apologize. It should have been omitted. Yes our real estate atty said Tenants in Common affords the best protection for our contribution. There are banks that offer mortgages in which we are not on it at all. My son already has such a commitment with one such bank. Thank you.
reggie
Rus In Urbe
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Rus In Urbe »

@Rickboglehead
I'd second the perspective of having your son and his girlfriend read this thread. See how that impacts their decision on accepting this windfall.
+1 THIRD vote for this.

My fellow BHs have, as always, thought hard about the OPs question and generously offered their best advice on this thread----and gotten a lot of pushback from OP.

If OP feels hesitation about having the family members (Wife, Son, GF & possible future in-laws) read this thread and discuss it, it's a sign that something really is amiss and would seem to show a lack of trust in their judgment to make up their own minds about this deal, which will profoundly impact their lives and future.

OP can rest assured that, if the plan will work for everyone involved, then nothing written on this board would persuade family members otherwise!

And if, after reading and discussing this thread, they all want to move forward, then it should work out just fine.

Eyes wide open. Cards on the table. Treat family members that way, as well as business partners. They deserve nothing less.
I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money. ~Pablo Picasso
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wander
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by wander »

I would not do it My reason is very simple: when things go smooth, it is fine, when thing goes sour you will potentially lose your son. I would do it if I think it is a gift that I can lose it without blinking my eyes. And even if I can lose the money, I rather give it to my son than to end of with battle in court there I may lose the money and also lose a son. It happened in my friends’ family, people are now not looking at each other.
junior
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by junior »

The obvious problem with the arrangement is it might be emotionally uncomfortable for the son and girlfriend to have their home situation under the control of whatever legal arrangement OP and OP's attorney come up with.

It's not even clear to me why the son and girlfriend are considering this arrangement to begin with from an emotional perspective rather than a financial one. For a lot of people a home is as much or more a emotional issue rather than something approached from the perspective of personal finance.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Mlm wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:48 pm If you want to go 50/50 on the deed with your son...have at it. However your son should consult his own attorney and obtain the mortgage in his name only if unmarried.
I will tell him. Actually i will ask both of them to read this thread so they can make up their own mind. I have already asked my wife to read this thread but i have been answering everyone for the last 3.5 hours....lol. Thank you.
reggie
Luckywon
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Luckywon »

reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:08 pm
Luckywon wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:42 pm I have not read this thread in detail so I apologize if anything that I say his redundant.

I was once conservator and then executor for a relative who had property in another state. Even though the property was not worth much, it created a nightmare administration wise. As conservator, I had to deal with probate court issues in two states instead of one.

After the relative died, I discovered the state in which the property was in had different estate and inheritance laws, which necessitated spending a small fortune in time and money hiring a lawyer to address these, including completing a federal estate return, which would not have been necessary under the laws of the state that he actually lived in. Trust me, a federal estate tax return is something you never went to put someone through. I'd die before i did that. 🤡

So as part of your diligence look into the details of how this would affect distribution of your estate. Perhaps there will be no big issue. It depends on the states involved.

I can think of probably 25 other reasons why this would be a bad or very bad idea ( I literally smacked my forehead after I read the first few lines of your post) but will not list these because they are mostly obvious and probably addressed above.
We went with tenants in Common as the best legal advice to protect our contribution. Further, our estate atty said to keep it as individuals and not create a Trust. At some point will will transfer our ownership to our son maybe with the right to lifetime residence if it comes to that. Thank you for the legal concerns. This is one of the primary reasons i came to BH for advice.
Thank you
reggie.
Holding the property in that way will address the ownership transfer upon death but it will not necessarily address all potential estate/inheritance tax issues. For example, if you hold any property in Oregon and your estate is over $1 million (including all assets not just those in Oregon), your executor will be likely be filing an Oregon estate tax return which will include filling out (though not necessarily filing with the federal government) a federal estate tax return. The estate will pay in the range of $10,000 to the attorney to complete the form and your executor will spend many many hours and curse you.

My advice (beyond of course abandoning the whole idea): check with a probate attorney who practices in the state where your son lives to see if there are any potential estate tax issues.

My advice to all others: do not own property in Oregon if you do not live there.
The Outsider
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by The Outsider »

HueyLD wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:39 pm What would you do if the girlfriend sold her 1/4 ownership to an old boyfriend or her mother? That's what tenants in common means.
What would happen if there are grandkids and S & GF split or grandkids and S & W divorce? Would grandkids get evicted? Son definitely could. What happens when wife remarries and new husband moves in?

Would you still use in law suite:)? Remember possession is 9/10th blah, blah ,blah

I'm playing devils advocate. Personally I think its admirable you're trying to help loved ones and are doing your independent due diligence. BH is a good part of your DD.

Best of luck to you all!
Rus In Urbe
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Rus In Urbe »

Came upon OP's comment that he plans to do the same with the other child, a daughter.

Reading suggestion:

KING LEAR by William Shakespeare

.
I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money. ~Pablo Picasso
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celia
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Re: Buying house with son

Post by celia »

reggiesimpson wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:14 pm 3 My wife and i have made it very clear that it is their home not ours. Its their "time" now. We are on the "way out". We are visiting. Yes the time may extend as we get much older but as we pointed out to my son, and as his gf already knows, you two are fortunate to have 4 intact grandparents ( hers live very close) who are not dead, divorced or disabled and thus are a wonderful resource for you when the children come along.
So this poor couple might some day be responsible for 4 grandparents and 4 parents? Good thing one of them is a nurse!
4 As far as home ownership trials and tribulations i could only warn them that they are going from a 2 bed condo HOA to a 4/5 bed 3200+ sqr ft home on an acre + with all the costs that entails.
A much simpler solution that would meet your goals is for them to stay in the condo and you and your spouse to by a small place nearby, maybe even a unit in the same condo association. The advantages of that are:

* no ownership/ title/ legal complications should EITHER couple divorce or die.
* your and their finances aren’t interwoven
* your unit would get a step-up in value at death
* you can set up your living situation exactly how you like it and you might be able to rent it out when not there
* you would be close enough to babysit/ have kids come over after school
* you would be close enough for elder care assistance without the couple being expected to care for other relatives on their property

If/when they decide to have kids, they could still buy someplace larger without impacting you.

Or maybe they could get a bigger condo unit while you buy the current unit from them.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

wander wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:27 pm I would not do it My reason is very simple: when things go smooth, it is fine, when thing goes sour you will potentially lose your son. I would do it if I think it is a gift that I can lose it without blinking my eyes. And even if I can lose the money, I rather give it to my son than to end of with battle in court there I may lose the money and also lose a son. It happened in my friends’ family, people are now not looking at each other.
Yes we are aware of this potential problem. It will be largely mitigated by only visiting and not living there. Neither my wife and i want a Hotel staying relationship. This was discussed with my son a long time ago. He agrees. Thank you.
reggie
stan1
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by stan1 »

There's only so much coverage the law can give you when someone is dishonest, greedy, or out to get someone. Sure you can hire lawyers and that will cost everyone a lot of money. That's true in any type of relationship whether business, marriage, or family. My point is that you are taking a lot of steps to try to prevent your son from losing part of his inheritance through divorce despite not being married right now but the complexities you are creating to manage that could create legal jeopardies that are both more likely and higher consequence than the original problem.

My suggestion is gifting your son money for the down payment (and if there is another child doing the same). If your family culture includes a high degree of respect for elders and it is normal and expected for children to care for their aging parents I'd still do this.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Luckywon wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:39 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:08 pm
Luckywon wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:42 pm I have not read this thread in detail so I apologize if anything that I say his redundant.

I was once conservator and then executor for a relative who had property in another state. Even though the property was not worth much, it created a nightmare administration wise. As conservator, I had to deal with probate court issues in two states instead of one.

After the relative died, I discovered the state in which the property was in had different estate and inheritance laws, which necessitated spending a small fortune in time and money hiring a lawyer to address these, including completing a federal estate return, which would not have been necessary under the laws of the state that he actually lived in. Trust me, a federal estate tax return is something you never went to put someone through. I'd die before i did that. 🤡

So as part of your diligence look into the details of how this would affect distribution of your estate. Perhaps there will be no big issue. It depends on the states involved.

I can think of probably 25 other reasons why this would be a bad or very bad idea ( I literally smacked my forehead after I read the first few lines of your post) but will not list these because they are mostly obvious and probably addressed above.
We went with tenants in Common as the best legal advice to protect our contribution. Further, our estate atty said to keep it as individuals and not create a Trust. At some point will will transfer our ownership to our son maybe with the right to lifetime residence if it comes to that. Thank you for the legal concerns. This is one of the primary reasons i came to BH for advice.
Thank you
reggie.
Holding the property in that way will address the ownership transfer upon death but it will not necessarily address all potential estate/inheritance tax issues. For example, if you hold any property in Oregon and your estate is over $1 million (including all assets not just those in Oregon), your executor will be likely be filing an Oregon estate tax return which will include filling out (though not necessarily filing with the federal government) a federal estate tax return. The estate will pay in the range of $10,000 to the attorney to complete the form and your executor will spend many many hours and curse you.

My advice (beyond of course abandoning the whole idea): check with a probate attorney who practices in the state where your son lives to see if there are any potential estate tax issues.

My advice to all others: do not own property in Oregon if you do not live there.
Thank you. We will.
reggis
e
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

The Outsider wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:45 pm
HueyLD wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:39 pm What would you do if the girlfriend sold her 1/4 ownership to an old boyfriend or her mother? That's what tenants in common means.
What would happen if there are grandkids and S & GF split or grandkids and S & W divorce? Would grandkids get evicted? Son definitely could. What happens when wife remarries and new husband moves in?

Would you still use in law suite:)? Remember possession is 9/10th blah, blah ,blah

I'm playing devils advocate. Personally I think its admirable you're trying to help loved ones and are doing your independent due diligence. BH is a good part of your DD.

Best of luck to you all!
Still seeking legal advice on that front. Thank you.
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Rus In Urbe wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:46 pm Came upon OP's comment that he plans to do the same with the other child, a daughter.

Reading suggestion:

KING LEAR by William Shakespeare

.
I would make her the same offer. The decisions , as was my sons, is up to her. Thank you.
reggie
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son

Post by reggiesimpson »

celia wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:49 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:14 pm 3 My wife and i have made it very clear that it is their home not ours. Its their "time" now. We are on the "way out". We are visiting. Yes the time may extend as we get much older but as we pointed out to my son, and as his gf already knows, you two are fortunate to have 4 intact grandparents ( hers live very close) who are not dead, divorced or disabled and thus are a wonderful resource for you when the children come along.
So this poor couple might some day be responsible for 4 grandparents and 4 parents? Good thing one of them is a nurse!
4 As far as home ownership trials and tribulations i could only warn them that they are going from a 2 bed condo HOA to a 4/5 bed 3200+ sqr ft home on an acre + with all the costs that entails.
A much simpler solution that would meet your goals is for them to stay in the condo and you and your spouse to by a small place nearby, maybe even a unit in the same condo association. The advantages of that are:

* no ownership/ title/ legal complications should EITHER couple divorce or die.
* your and their finances aren’t interwoven
* your unit would get a step-up in value at death
* you can set up your living situation exactly how you like it and you might be able to rent it out when not there
* you would be close enough to babysit/ have kids come over after school
* you would be close enough for elder care assistance without the couple being expected to care for other relatives on their property

If/when they decide to have kids, they could still buy someplace larger without impacting you.

Or maybe they could get a bigger condo unit while you buy the current unit from them.
I was responsible for my parents care as they got older. And i supported my stay at home my wife and two children at the same time.
His gf took care of her grandfather towards end of his life. Its what we do. The condo is in an awful school district. And the condos in the better school districts are more expensive than homes. Thank you.
reggie
Flyer24
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Flyer24 »

reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:18 pm
bayview wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:44 am
bayview wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:33 am 50% want to live NEAR their adult children.

That is not even remotely the same as under the same roof.

I agree with the idea of gifting him the money, he has 75% and she has 25%, and you stay with them when you visit.

If the time comes that you want to move there, I would think that a great guest cottage (in law dwelling) could be built on that 1+ acre, if as you say towns are changing zoning ordinances.
—one more thought: bringing significant amounts of money into a familial relationship makes things weird.

Money and power tend to be linked, and unless someone is a complete saint, the presence of this financial entanglement is going to affect what should be a relaxed and affectionate relationship between the generations.

If you have a good relationship now, this setup could injure it. And if the relationship is currently not so good, to where you think you must have partial ownership to be allowed to visit or eventually live with them, this deal sure won’t help.

Edit to add: what does your wife think? Is she reading this thread? She seems singularly absent from the discussion.
I answered the first part of this post a little while ago. To continue.We are bringing 50% into the purchase of a house with some monthly "rent" to defray some costs. Not exactly big dollars. He is putting significant dollars in himself. The relationship is fine but of course issue can and will come up. We will have to be open to resolving them just like responsible adults......then we will take another cruise.... lol. I discussed this thread with my wife this morning and suggested she read it BUT be ready for some vitriol (not you). Thank you.
reggie
Vitriol?

I am not sure that comment was appropriate.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

stan1 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:51 pm There's only so much coverage the law can give you when someone is dishonest, greedy, or out to get someone. Sure you can hire lawyers and that will cost everyone a lot of money. That's true in any type of relationship whether business, marriage, or family. My point is that you are taking a lot of steps to try to prevent your son from losing part of his inheritance through divorce despite not being married right now but the complexities you are creating to manage that could create legal jeopardies that are both more likely and higher consequence than the original problem.

My suggestion is gifting your son money for the down payment (and if there is another child doing the same). If your family culture includes a high degree of respect for elders and it is normal and expected for children to care for their aging parents I'd still do this.
My son is getting a pre nup. Which is news to me. We are taking steps to protect our contribution. I am sure her parents would do the same if they were making such an offer and i understand that. Yes, i am aware we can gift something and maybe they will move on to their own home. I will bring it up again and see what he thinks but he was comfortable with the contribution concept to start with. Thank you.
reggis.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Flyer24 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:06 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:18 pm
bayview wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:44 am
bayview wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:33 am 50% want to live NEAR their adult children.

That is not even remotely the same as under the same roof.

I agree with the idea of gifting him the money, he has 75% and she has 25%, and you stay with them when you visit.

If the time comes that you want to move there, I would think that a great guest cottage (in law dwelling) could be built on that 1+ acre, if as you say towns are changing zoning ordinances.
—one more thought: bringing significant amounts of money into a familial relationship makes things weird.

Money and power tend to be linked, and unless someone is a complete saint, the presence of this financial entanglement is going to affect what should be a relaxed and affectionate relationship between the generations.

If you have a good relationship now, this setup could injure it. And if the relationship is currently not so good, to where you think you must have partial ownership to be allowed to visit or eventually live with them, this deal sure won’t help.

Edit to add: what does your wife think? Is she reading this thread? She seems singularly absent from the discussion.
I answered the first part of this post a little while ago. To continue.We are bringing 50% into the purchase of a house with some monthly "rent" to defray some costs. Not exactly big dollars. He is putting significant dollars in himself. The relationship is fine but of course issue can and will come up. We will have to be open to resolving them just like responsible adults......then we will take another cruise.... lol. I discussed this thread with my wife this morning and suggested she read it BUT be ready for some vitriol (not you). Thank you.
reggie
Vitriol?

I am not sure that comment was appropriate.
I dont think being accused of extortion on this thread is appropriate either. But i have been. Therefore i warned my wife that when she reads this do not let the vitriol affect her reading the entire thread. Thank you.
reggie
Flyer24
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Flyer24 »

Where did someone accuse you of extortion?
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Flyer24 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:23 pm Where did someone accuse you of extortion?
Yes i just went looking for it myself. Interestingly a large portion of one response was edited out so i suspect thats where it was.
Gleops2
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Gleops2 »

To me, this sounds like in-laws wanting to buy a time-share in their unmarried son's future home.

No.

No.

No.

There is a world of separation between lending or gifting money for a down payment, and the expectation that one will have a place when visiting or for longer term when older. Too many variables.

Gift them the money. Continue to use a hotel, AirB+B or just stay with them when you visit. With no kids and a four bedroom house, there should be plenty of room.

Sorry if this offends you, but up to this point, you HAVE pretty much shot down every comment made as to why NOT. To me, it sounds a whole lot like someone trying to convince someone else in spite of the overwhelming evidence.

You seem determined no matter what. I can see down the road when you visit, you nit-picking the place they live in to death...."The roof needs repair....when did you last clean the gutters?...is that really the color you want for the bathroom?....Do you REALLY like the neighbors? He drinks beer!!!....why don't you park the car in the garage?.....The lawn really needs fertilizer"...do you really need a dog?....etc etc etc...

Biggest red flag? THEY ARE NOT MARRIED. Why on EARTH would you want to involve finances with a stranger? And that is what she is. You only know what your son tells you about her, and the limited observations when you visit. You have NO IDEA what goes on when you're not there.

Blunt, yes, but predict this is a bad move.

As someone else pointed out....they are not even married yet, have no kids, and may lose thier job(s), get transferred, or the economy might tank and take the value of the house down with it. There's YEARS before they "need" a big house like that for "the kids".

Let them do it on thier own with a gift from you. What if HER parent gets ill first and they move that person into "your" room? Gonna ask her to toss them out while you visit? Just because they are younger means nothing.

Lastly.....do YOU want them to own a home they can't afford on thier own because YOU want to brag to people where they live???

Just.Say.No.

Did YOU want your in-laws living with you? You know the saying...Relatives that visit are like fish...after three days, they both begin to "stink".
Flyer24
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Flyer24 »

reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:27 pm
Flyer24 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:23 pm Where did someone accuse you of extortion?
Yes i just went looking for it myself. Interestingly a large portion of one response was edited out so i suspect thats where it was.
So there is no proof of your accusation which makes it inappropriate. I imagine this thread will be locked soon.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Gleops2 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:30 pm To me, this sounds like in-laws wanting to buy a time-share in their unmarried son's future home.

No.

No.

No.

There is a world of separation between lending or gifting money for a down payment, and the expectation that one will have a place when visiting or for longer term when older. Too many variables.

Gift them the money. Continue to use a hotel, AirB+B or just stay with them when you visit. With no kids and a four bedroom house, there should be plenty of room.

Sorry if this offends you, but up to this point, you HAVE pretty much shot down every comment made as to why NOT. To me, it sounds a whole lot like someone trying to convince someone else in spite of the overwhelming evidence.

You seem determined no matter what. I can see down the road when you visit, you nit-picking the place they live in to death...."The roof needs repair....when did you last clean the gutters?...is that really the color you want for the bathroom?....Do you REALLY like the neighbors? He drinks beer!!!....why don't you park the car in the garage?.....The lawn really needs fertilizer"...do you really need a dog?....etc etc etc...

Biggest red flag? THEY ARE NOT MARRIED. Why on EARTH would you want to involve finances with a stranger? And that is what she is. You only know what your son tells you about her, and the limited observations when you visit. You have NO IDEA what goes on when you're not there.

Blunt, yes, but predict this is a bad move.

As someone else pointed out....they are not even married yet, have no kids, and may lose thier job(s), get transferred, or the economy might tank and take the value of the house down with it. There's YEARS before they "need" a big house like that for "the kids".

Let them do it on thier own with a gift from you. What if HER parent gets ill first and they move that person into "your" room? Gonna ask her to toss them out while you visit? Just because they are younger means nothing.

Lastly.....do YOU want them to own a home they can't afford on thier own because YOU want to brag to people where they live???

Just.Say.No.

Did YOU want your in-laws living with you? You know the saying...Relatives that visit are like fish...after three days, they both begin to "stink".
Well yes i do find your comments rather offensive and some might say vitriolic. You dont know me at all and yes you suppose many nasty personality flaws. I dont know where to start.....so i wont. Thank you.
reggie.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Stinky »

OP, best of luck to you.

You’re about to make the mistake of a lifetime, as detailed by so many folks above. There are so many ways this is a bad idea. I won’t attempt to repeat anything from above, but the comments are very solid and are based on much personal experience.

I wish you well.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Jags4186 »

I think it’s time the thread is closed. No more useful comments will be posted.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Stinky wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:29 pm OP, best of luck to you.

You’re about to make the mistake of a lifetime, as detailed by so many folks above. There are so many ways this is a bad idea. I won’t attempt to repeat anything from above, but the comments are very solid and are based on much personal experience.

I wish you well.
Thank you. Yes its still a work in progress. I have to suspect that as more people reach our age they may well look around and wonder how to spend their remaining years in a fruit full manner. For us so far its this. Thank you.
reggie.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by sd323232 »

I agree, not much can be said here. Lets wish OP well with this decision, may be it will all work out for him!

This is why i come to this forum. People here will give best advice no matter how much it is painful to hear.
The_G_Fund
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by The_G_Fund »

OP seems to have blinders on with respect to being able to unequivocally "recover" his full investment in the property (which likely forms the bulk of the down payment) if son and gf split up and sell the house.

Let's assume $1mil property, half of which is owned by OP, and the other half owned by son and gf (and the bank).

And then the son and gf split up in the middle of a recession after property has tanked 25% in value.

OP's share of the property is now $375k (capital loss of $125k), and may become even less if the son and gf need his help to bail them out of the underwater mortgage.

So OP, you can't have your cake and eat it too. As others have mentioned, only enter this agreement if you are prepared to lose your money. And that's not even getting into the risky family and social entanglements fellow posters have sagely noted above.

Maybe renting an Airbnb/hotel room nearby isn't that expensive after all?
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

sd323232 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:54 pm I agree, not much can be said here. Lets wish OP well with this decision, may be it will all work out for him!

This is why i come to this forum. People here will give best advice no matter how much it is painful to hear.
Thank you i appreciate the comment. I agree that BH is such a top notch site to come to to hear all including the warts. Very important and always illuminating. Fortunately over the years a culture of civility (along with moderation of course) has made the discussions that more relevant. Thank you.
reggie.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

techsetter wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:28 pm OP seems to have blinders on with respect to being able to unequivocally "recover" his full investment in the property (which likely forms the bulk of the down payment) if son and gf split up and sell the house.

Let's assume $1mil property, half of which is owned by OP, and the other half owned by son and gf (and the bank).

And then the son and gf split up in the middle of a recession after property has tanked 25% in value.

OP's share of the property is now $375k (capital loss of $125k), and may become even less if the son and gf need his help to bail them out of the underwater mortgage.

So OP, you can't have your cake and eat it too. As others have mentioned, only enter this agreement if you are prepared to lose your money. And that's not even getting into the risky family and social entanglements fellow posters have sagely noted above.

Maybe renting an Airbnb/hotel room nearby isn't that expensive after all?
Yes this was discussed with the real estate atty and it still needs further clarification. If the property is sold any appreciation will go to my son and his gf and i will get back my original investment back. As i cant tell whats going to happen in the future including timing the real estate market we have to deal with the hear and now. As previously stated both of them have solid careers and the mortgage will be relatively small thanks to my son putting down a sizable amount. Mortgage insurance may be another option. But as we are getting older and they are eager the time is now to get this show on the road. Thank you.
reggie
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by staythecourse »

reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:00 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm Reggie,
I wish you and your family all the best in this decision. On paper it all looks like a pretty good idea, but statistically the odds of this plan going well is very poor. It is just a fact as there are so many things that can go wrong with a high chance of failure when adding them all up. I hope you reconsider this decision for everyone’s sake, but if you are still going ahead, once again I wish you the best and that everything works out as planned.
Thank you. I have no illusions and that why i am still asking questions. Thank you
reggie
There is a difference between asking questions when you are really open minded on what decision to make and asking questions when you have already made the decision. It is like when my wife asks, "Do you like this dress?" I think you know where that question fall into.

The barometer I use is if over 90% of folks strongly believe the decision is bad (which it seems on this thread) who have no dog in the fight then you likely know what your decision SHOULD be.

You seem like a good guy so wish you the best, but can't see ANYBODY think this is a good idea. If it was me in your shoes I would just buy the property myself and live there with you son. When you two die just pass it to your son. That is a reasonable alternative that gets you to the same endpoint. By then if your son stays with this woman or not will have figured itself out.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
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Re: Buying house with son

Post by freebeer »

reggiesimpson wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:40 pm ....The legal agreement she signs stipulates that the house is sold immediately if they break up in advance.
This in itself would be a deal-breaker for me. Giving a 25% owner of a somewhat illiquid asset the right to force an immediate sale on demand would not be a reasonable condition of any arms-length partnership. What if the RE market is very bad? What if the market is good but you have a strong reason to push cap gains into the next year because you have already a big cap gains in this year? What if you have already purchased plane tickets for a visit with your son in 4 months time and it will be inconvenient not to have the place to stay in? And I know from painful experience that getting mutual agreement on terms of sale and division of proceeds is challenging and can lead to inordinate legal costs. It would be better IMHO if you financed 75% of the house or whatever it took for your son to swing his share, and GF agreed to pay fair share in rent until & unless they got married, disclaiming any ownership interest. Investment with a child still has downsides but at least that would keep things simpler for everyone given that GF could walk out any time.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by letsgobobby »

Reggie, I still do not understand why a simple gift is not the best option (Occam's razor). You can afford it and it avoids all encumbrances. Why not?
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

staythecourse wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:57 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:00 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:00 pm Reggie,
I wish you and your family all the best in this decision. On paper it all looks like a pretty good idea, but statistically the odds of this plan going well is very poor. It is just a fact as there are so many things that can go wrong with a high chance of failure when adding them all up. I hope you reconsider this decision for everyone’s sake, but if you are still going ahead, once again I wish you the best and that everything works out as planned.
Thank you. I have no illusions and that why i am still asking questions. Thank you
reggie
There is a difference between asking questions when you are really open minded on what decision to make and asking questions when you have already made the decision. It is like when my wife asks, "Do you like this dress?" I think you know where that question fall into.

The barometer I use is if over 90% of folks strongly believe the decision is bad (which it seems on this thread) who have no dog in the fight then you likely know what your decision SHOULD be.

You seem like a good guy so wish you the best, but can't see ANYBODY think this is a good idea. If it was me in your shoes I would just buy the property myself and live there with you son. When you two die just pass it to your son. That is a reasonable alternative that gets you to the same endpoint. By then if your son stays with this woman or not will have figured itself out.

Good luck.
Yes and i appreciate the feedback but ultimately the decisions of the people who count the most are the four of us and so far no one is saying they dont want to do this. I approached BH after considerable research, reading, atty consult, discussions with friends and strangers alike. I knew this would be an open forum type discussion and thats why i did my homework first. I have picked up a lot of "to dos" here but the argument for shutting it down hasnt been made in my estimate.
Buying the property and giving it to them when we die means they have no intrinsic home ownership appreciation. They dont even want that. Thank you.
reggie
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by Derby »

runner540 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:28 am No one has said it's a criminal act. What people are reacting to is that you have A LOT of expectations around this "help"/"gift".
You've said it's:
-early inheritance and money you don't need BUT you want to retain upside/control via ownership
-payment for future lodging and eldercare
-equity (and upside) in the home without for all the carrying costs
-for son, Gf and future grandkids BUT protected from GF/DIL

The same dollars can't meet all these expectations and someone will be disappointed to say the least.
+1, also:

There's this:
We live 5 hrs away and have no intention of moving in but we are simply tired of staying in hotels.
But then this:
...the need to take care of grandchildren and eventually grandparents is a pressing issue that is being resolved with multigenerational living.
And this:
My wife and i have made it very clear that it is their home not ours.
But then this:
However as i gently had to remind him..... we paid for the space.
It sounds like things are not as clear-cut in your own mind as you think they are.
Carpe Diem.
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reggiesimpson
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Re: Buying house with son

Post by reggiesimpson »

freebeer wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:18 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:40 pm ....The legal agreement she signs stipulates that the house is sold immediately if they break up in advance.
This in itself would be a deal-breaker for me. Giving a 25% owner of a somewhat illiquid asset the right to force an immediate sale on demand would not be a reasonable condition of any arms-length partnership. What if the RE market is very bad? What if the market is good but you have a strong reason to push cap gains into the next year because you have already a big cap gains in this year? What if you have already purchased plane tickets for a visit with your son in 4 months time and it will be inconvenient not to have the place to stay in? And I know from painful experience that getting mutual agreement on terms of sale and division of proceeds is challenging and can lead to inordinate legal costs. It would be better IMHO if you financed 75% of the house or whatever it took for your son to swing his share, and GF agreed to pay fair share in rent until & unless they got married, disclaiming any ownership interest. Investment with a child still has downsides but at least that would keep things simpler for everyone given that GF could walk out any time.
Our atty suggested this. Makes sense to us so we would go with it. Thank you.
reggie
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

letsgobobby wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:43 pm Reggie, I still do not understand why a simple gift is not the best option (Occam's razor). You can afford it and it avoids all encumbrances. Why not?
[/quote

A contribution and partial ownership on title passed the attys smell test to protect our asset. Gifting would not. This was his recommendation not ours. Thank you.
reggie
staythecourse
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by staythecourse »

reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:52 pm
letsgobobby wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:43 pm Reggie, I still do not understand why a simple gift is not the best option (Occam's razor). You can afford it and it avoids all encumbrances. Why not?
[/quote

A contribution and partial ownership on title passed the attys smell test to protect our asset. Gifting would not. This was his recommendation not ours. Thank you.
reggie
Did you ask the attorney how many of these situation become a social issue later? That would be a good person to answer that EXACT question.

It is like asking an estate lawyer, "Can't I name a corporate trustee for my money?" The answer is yes, but if you ask would you recommend it the answer is nearly ALWAYS no.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

Derby wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:49 pm
runner540 wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:28 am No one has said it's a criminal act. What people are reacting to is that you have A LOT of expectations around this "help"/"gift".
You've said it's:
-early inheritance and money you don't need BUT you want to retain upside/control via ownership
-payment for future lodging and eldercare
-equity (and upside) in the home without for all the carrying costs
-for son, Gf and future grandkids BUT protected from GF/DIL

The same dollars can't meet all these expectations and someone will be disappointed to say the least.
+1, also:

There's this:
We live 5 hrs away and have no intention of moving in but we are simply tired of staying in hotels.
But then this:
...the need to take care of grandchildren and eventually grandparents is a pressing issue that is being resolved with multigenerational living.
And this:
My wife and i have made it very clear that it is their home not ours.
But then this:
However as i gently had to remind him..... we paid for the space.
It sounds like things are not as clear-cut in your own mind as you think they are.
I answered that first part earlier. There are many misconceptions/errors in those statements above. Our only request apart from being on the deed is a spacious private apt with separate entrance. As both our son and DIL will continue to work it only makes sense that we would be there to help with grandchildren as would her parents that live nearby. Taking care of us as we get old does not preclude the need for nursing home car of course. I eventually had to put my mom in one after she lived with us for quite a while. We are not parasites....lol. As far as the use of the space when we are not there we clarified that our bedroom/ computer area is off limits. The open area/living room is fair game if they want to use it. Im pretty sure i added lol after a number of statements about interaction like reading his newspaper and cable connection......lol. We all need a sense of humor to get through the day. This is still a work in progress. Thats why i came to BH for further advice. Thank you
reggie
mortfree
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by mortfree »

reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Mortgage insurance may be another option. But as we are getting older and they are eager the time is now to get this show on the road. Thank you.
reggie
Again, what is this mortgage insurance you are referring to? I genuinely want to know.

I’d also caution that the more complex the arrangement, the more likely lawyers will need to be involved if things go sour. Perhaps the lawyer is seeing dollar signs by including the GF.

Finally, if everything works out you will never see your initial investment because you won’t be around. That should be your goal in all of this.
RetiredArtist
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by RetiredArtist »

I have been a tenant in common in a residential property for decades. We finally got around to having a real estate attorney draw up a tenants in common agreement. It addresses many "what ifs". The attorney said the tenants in common agreement is based on general contract law. If disputes arise, legal action might be more problematic.
I gifted a partial down payment to my not yet married kid, and suggested a pre-nup. I think it was good for them to discuss what might happen in case of divorce, death, etc.
If you decide to take title as a tenant in common, ask your real estate attorney about the utility of a tenants in common agreement.
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Re: Buying house with son [and his girlfriend]

Post by reggiesimpson »

staythecourse wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:58 pm
reggiesimpson wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:52 pm
letsgobobby wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:43 pm Reggie, I still do not understand why a simple gift is not the best option (Occam's razor). You can afford it and it avoids all encumbrances. Why not?
[/quote

A contribution and partial ownership on title passed the attys smell test to protect our asset. Gifting would not. This was his recommendation not ours. Thank you.
reggie
Did you ask the attorney how many of these situation become a social issue later? That would be a good person to answer that EXACT question.

It is like asking an estate lawyer, "Can't I name a corporate trustee for my money?" The answer is yes, but if you ask would you recommend it the answer is nearly ALWAYS no.

Good luck.
I am sure they can all become issues at any time. There will and has been issues already but they were resolved. There will be more. We expect it. Thats why communication and a sense of humor will get us through the day. The big picture is what counts and as long as we keep that in our sights we should be fine. If not?........ We take another cruise. Thank you.
reggie
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