Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:09 am

stan1 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:25 am
There's a little good advice up stream here and a lot of bad advice. If she wants to stay I would focus on being reassigned to a supervisor and manager who understands her work and values her contributions. I'd also start working on a Plan B through her network of former co-workers. Since she has a high degree of respect among her peers I'm sure many over the years have moved on to other companies and they would have leads for her. She may be reluctant to move from a non-billable back to a billable position (more hours, more stress) which I can understand, but its reasonable to predict that high salary non-billable positions will be among the first to go in the next downward economic cycle.
Assigned to a manager or supervisor who values her work? There are companies who have reorganization’s all the time, the criteria for which are not shared with your direct supervisor or manager that “values the work”. In other words, those doing the reorganization don’t care, they don’t value the employees, what they value is reducing expenses and headcount. Your advice really doesn’t work in most companies because frankly most companies view the employees as widgets that are disposable at any time. Being this is most likely the case for OP’s wife, if they desperately need her back, might as well protect yourself as best you can (if she chooses to go back). The universal bandage for repairing (even if temporarily) such harms is money. People go to work for money, not for “relationships” and not for any other intangible. Otherwise you aren’t going to see those high performers in the office.
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dbr
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by dbr » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:13 am

simas wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:38 am
What is really surprising to me is to hear is the description of the initial 'call' - and I wonder whether she received anything in writing and whether there were witnesses. I have done layoffs, have been laid off, I never seen it without
a) witness present (even on the call)
b) in writing communication (we regret to inform blah-blah-blah, you are subject to provisions of document X as set forth in blah-blah-blah)

this is never handled without someone in HR present

and yes, HR person up in the thread gives the best advice. get details of whether she is or isn't currently in the program to be laid off, and then plan from there. start looking, have conversation(s) with powers that be in the current place if they can make it right..
I repeat that we are missing a lot of information here. The situation as originally posted simply does not makes sense. All the calls to claim drastic compensation for this make no sense. If everyone was shocked there has to be more to the story.

The first step is to clarify what even happened. My theory is that the wife received a prank call from someone hacking inside or outside the company and HR is working with corporate security to track down who did this while admitting nothing.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by EddyB » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:22 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:32 am
EddyB wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:56 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:10 pm
Someone mentioned maybe they can’t accerate the vesting of stock due to plan rules. Fine, but they can grant an equivalent amount of unrestricted stock or pay you the cash value of the stock as if it vested and were sold.

The more I think about this though the more I think your wife should find another job. She should probably also get all of these goodies from current employer and then start her job search immediately. Something kooky is going on here and things have been revealed to her that perhaps she didn’t know before—somewhere along the chain she was seen as dispensable or not having the impact she thought she had. That’s hard to come back from.
If management wants to, it can ask the compensation committee of the board (or whatever serves as the plan administrator) to accelerate vesting. While there may be some accounting consequence to it, there’s no reason the company can’t accelerate vesting of its own equity awards.
Setting the precedent would be a bad idea.
Then everyone they accidentally fire would expect the same treatment!

One-off accelerations happen.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:25 am

123 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:35 pm
To rejoin the company she should receive:
1. Immediate and complete payment of the promised severance package, including cash-out for medical and other "free" benefits
2. Signon bonus equal to six months salary.
3. Employment contract with 5 year period guarantee. If they terminate employment in next 5 years they have to payout the balance of the salary due for the 5 year period.
4. Twelve months before the end of the 5 year period they have to negotiate any contract extension they want. If an extension agreement is not completed and signed by six months before the end of the current contract it is assumed that her services end at the conclusion of the contract and she is free to immediately seek alternative employment.

She should expect to compensated handsomely due to the anxiety the company has needlessly cast upon her.
5 year buyout? We aren’t talking about college head coaching here. That’s never going to happen.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by djpeteski » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:29 am

imyeti2 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:58 pm
DW has now been asked what it would take to come back (or rather stay). DW was recently responsible for bringing in multi million client business. She also has some restricted stock from several years ago when she joined that is still vesting.
For the record, I am munching on my popcorn seeing how this will all play out, and I doubt I am not alone. Please update when you can, thanks.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by cherijoh » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:22 am

samsoes wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:23 pm
That company sounds like a real cluster-mess. :mrgreen:

She should take any severance offered and go work for the competition.
Before doing so, I would review any non-competes that she may have signed. If she has signed something, then it might be prudent to consult a lawyer about whether it is enforceable - I have heard that this varies a lot state to state.

wandering_aimlessly wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:58 pm
The bigger issue could well be what happened. This may be a complete mistake or it may have just revealed someone in her chain of command has a pretty big axe to grind (and just assumed the organization would let it happen). Does she really just want to go back into that meat grinder? The COO may have saved her but what if they aren't there next time? - the perpetrator might just have learned they need to be better at having their ducks in a row before they do it again. Working in a different group might be worth more than a financial apology.
Very good point. Was she the only one notified of being laid off? Or was this as part of a larger layoff? Was she the most recently promoted to her level?

I think it makes a big difference if she was a casualty of office politics/backstabbing or incompetent HR. Has someone else been claiming that they are responsible for bringing in all the new business due to wife's efforts? That could explain why someone higher up thought she was expendable.

If it is part of a larger layoff, it could be general HR incompetence, but if she was a solo layoff, that makes it more likely she was specifically targetted. At a former employer, the powers that be laid off a large swath of the lab technicians during a general layoff without realizing that some of them had very specialized skills that were critical to keeping the company up and running. They were laid off on a Friday and most of them were recalled by early the next week when enough people who understood day-to-day operations complained.

PVW wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:00 pm
If she still wants to keep her job, I'd ask for an employment contract that guarantees a severance payout if she is ever terminated without cause. Start with asking for 1 year salary and immediate vesting of options and restricted stock, then see what they say. As for immediate financial rewards, I'd take whatever they offered, but not make any additional demands for bonus or raise.
Good idea as this is something that would be viewed as protection against another "mistake" rather than a greedy power grab - although a year's severance might be a bit much IMO.

If nothing else, I would ask for some time to consider the situation - say until Monday - to allow calmer heads to prevail and hopefully make them sweat it a bit.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by epoxyresin » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:07 pm

I think some people are a bit overestimating how strong her position actually is. They said that they were going to give 4 months severance, but it doesn't sound like she was ever actually removed as an employee, so I think it's unlikely that if she did decide to leave now she would actually get that amount of money.

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Darth Xanadu
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Darth Xanadu » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:11 pm

I'm watching this thread with much interest. Looking forward to hearing from OP how things evolve in the coming days/weeks.
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by fru-gal » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:38 pm

I haven't had time to read all the responses, but here is what I think:

If a company is willing to fire you once, you are on thin ice, and there is a high probability you will soon be fired again.

I would be sure she is financially at least as well off as with the severance package and some compensation equal to whatever she lost in terms of stock, etc. Otherwise I would take the severance and not return. She must have tons of contacts for new employment, based on your description.

I don't like the whole thing. Someone has their knife out and the question is what the heck is going on. A contract may guarantee her a length of employment, but what about the working environment with that individual still there.

My plan would be to look for a new position while negotiating with this company, and hope that the result is she gets the severance package and a better new job elsewhere.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by 2b2 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:42 pm

Keep in mind that all these opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.... including mine.

You and your wife should sit quietly, agree on how to proceed, make a determination if it seems reasonable (given your wife's knowledge of and experience with the company), then proceed.

2b2

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Dave55 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:00 pm

2b2 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:42 pm
Keep in mind that all these opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.... including mine.

You and your wife should sit quietly, agree on how to proceed, make a determination if it seems reasonable (given your wife's knowledge of and experience with the company), then proceed.

2b2
I'll second that, +1

Dave

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by GeraniumLover » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:01 pm

For those questioning whether she was terminated and suggesting she not make her return contingent on any particular demand, please re-read the original post. The OP's wife was terminated and then asked what it would take for her to return.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by samsoes » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:21 pm

Darth Xanadu wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:11 pm
I'm watching this thread with much interest. Looking forward to hearing from OP how things evolve in the coming days/weeks.
As am I. I'm especially interested to see how this ship-of
-fools excuse for an employer makes her whole.
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by milo minderbinder » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm

I used to work in the comp and benefits area. My view is she should try to keep the four months severance and, in connection with her reemployment, now that she knows terminations are on the table, receive an enforceable written undertaking that if she is terminated for any reason other than cause she shall receive two (or at least one) years salary and bonus target.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by boomer_techie » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:08 pm

milo minderbinder wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm
My view is she should try to keep the four months severance and, ...
If the company balks at the four month severance, may I suggest requesting a four month paid sabbatical? Either immediate or sometime in say the next year. Go to school for a semester. Go on that round-the-world vacation she's always dreamed of. Do a short term contract gig with a different company.

However, from the sound of things, a four month absence may effectively be the same as quitting. Upon return, there may no longer be a position. Some boss may wonder why she's back.

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imyeti2
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by imyeti2 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

She works in healthcare consulting. There is lot of infrastructure costs - so difficult to fly solo.
She works from home - the company has this business model. Everyone works from home. So the call was from her manager's manager and HR together. This person who called - his boss (business unit leader) made the decision. Both her immediate manager and this person who delivered the news didn't have a say in the decision. That decision was just a number because they had to meet targets and hence decided to eliminate non-billable employees. Some of her non-billable colleagues were also let go. However, apparently there were some who were kept - perhaps inside the business unit leader's inner circle.

DW has received many phone calls since yesterday. From the COO (the business unit leader who made the decision reports to the COO) to someone else reporting to the CEO (lets call him X). Both of them are pleading her to say. They promise her that changes will take place and they are going to replace DW's leadership because they are aware of the mismanagement that is happening in her business unit. DW and X have a very good relationship (X is like a mentor to her) and therefore things started moving when X heard of the termination. X is aware of problems in DW's business unit and has requested on many occasions in the past that DW not leave the company fully aware of the mismanagement in her leadership. X rationale now is now that COO knows who DWs etc. so she has an advantage. Why leave to an unkown place?

Severance Package - When she initially received the call yesterday, HR verbally read to her the severance agreement indicating that the actual letter would be delivered by next day air. However, after the mess, they haven't sent the severance letter. They are still giving her an option to think whether she wants to go back or take the severance - something we have not even seen.

I think they are trying to pull a fast one on us.....

She was due for an annual cash bonus & RSUs based on her 2018 performance. Nobody has even talked about that. Granted if she was terminated she would not get the RSUs but she would still be eligible for the cash bonus ...

If she stays - she has the visibility, reputation and respect. Promise that things will change. But no guarantees.
If she leaves - get severance and start from scratch elsewhere.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:05 pm

So perhaps wait it out. Is she still employed by them? What terms are being offered for her to stay? Get info and sleep on it.

In the mean time, are there competitors who she could work for under the same conditions or better (working from home) where she'd be able to make more for the same work? Perhaps start looking. Regardless of the stay/go decision, even if she does stay, in a month, she could get an offer for 50% more money.....then she leaves, citing her desire to not work for a clown show any longer.
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by fourkids » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:10 pm

contact a high level employment attorney ASAP.
Spend a couple thousand in legal fees to get some advice on what to ask for. at minimum I would ask for:
-accelerated vesting schedule.
-25% pay raise
-severance package and immediate vesting if she is laid off anytime in next 2 years.

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8foot7
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by 8foot7 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:30 pm

Bare minimum for me, don't go back without the 4 months' severance as a cash bonus and immediate vesting and payment of any bonus and stock amounts that she had going for her. Rationale; the severance was a number they came up with, so they obviously have the budget for that, and since they already (at least tried to) fire her and have her lose out on unvested incentive pay, they need to make good on all of that as a gesture of rebuilding the trust. An equivalent amount in cash would be acceptable if there are plan rules they can't or won't get around.

If your wife is this valued, these things will happen. If your wife is this valued, she also won't have trouble finding a new role.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by dm200 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:50 pm

imyeti2 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:58 pm
Hello,
We have an interesting situation here.
DW had a senior position in consulting company and is not billable. However, because of her very strong expertise, she is a valuable employee and has the ability to bring in business and influence clients.
DW was called this morning and notified that she was terminated (with 4 months of severance). When she reached out to other senior individuals in her company who she works with, everyone was shocked and there seems to be some back channel communication reaching all the way up to the COO that she needs to be retained. This is not a small company but something with revenues of $3-4 B. The company could potentially lose clients and millions of dollars in business (atleast that's what we're being told)
Within few hours, she now get a call from the head of HR saying this was a mistake and they normally make sure to review each and every employee before termination etc. I think this is just an excuse.
DW has now been asked what it would take to come back (or rather stay). DW was recently responsible for bringing in multi million client business. She also has some restricted stock from several years ago when she joined that is still vesting.
How do we negotiate our way back? Any thoughts.
Thanks.
Yeti.
"Interesting indeed!"

What kind of "mistake"?

Suppose she had just done nothing after receiving the notification and not reached out to those other senior officials? Would the company had figured out this as a "mistake"?

I suppose mistakes like this can happen, but it all seems very strange.

Maybe (?) just keep the 4 months "severance" and go back to work?

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by themesrob » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:18 pm

imyeti2 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

She works in healthcare consulting. There is lot of infrastructure costs - so difficult to fly solo.
She works from home - the company has this business model. Everyone works from home. So the call was from her manager's manager and HR together. This person who called - his boss (business unit leader) made the decision. Both her immediate manager and this person who delivered the news didn't have a say in the decision. That decision was just a number because they had to meet targets and hence decided to eliminate non-billable employees. Some of her non-billable colleagues were also let go. However, apparently there were some who were kept - perhaps inside the business unit leader's inner circle.

DW has received many phone calls since yesterday. From the COO (the business unit leader who made the decision reports to the COO) to someone else reporting to the CEO (lets call him X). Both of them are pleading her to say. They promise her that changes will take place and they are going to replace DW's leadership because they are aware of the mismanagement that is happening in her business unit. DW and X have a very good relationship (X is like a mentor to her) and therefore things started moving when X heard of the termination. X is aware of problems in DW's business unit and has requested on many occasions in the past that DW not leave the company fully aware of the mismanagement in her leadership. X rationale now is now that COO knows who DWs etc. so she has an advantage. Why leave to an unkown place?

Severance Package - When she initially received the call yesterday, HR verbally read to her the severance agreement indicating that the actual letter would be delivered by next day air. However, after the mess, they haven't sent the severance letter. They are still giving her an option to think whether she wants to go back or take the severance - something we have not even seen.

I think they are trying to pull a fast one on us.....

She was due for an annual cash bonus & RSUs based on her 2018 performance. Nobody has even talked about that. Granted if she was terminated she would not get the RSUs but she would still be eligible for the cash bonus ...

If she stays - she has the visibility, reputation and respect. Promise that things will change. But no guarantees.
If she leaves - get severance and start from scratch elsewhere.
If they are offering a choice between staying and leaving with the severance package, but haven't actually provided the package in writing, I would ask for it so your wife can make an informed decision. It may prompt the company leadership to offer a financial incentive for her to stay if they think she is seriously considering it. If they try and yank the offer, or say she was not actually ever terminated, I would absolutely consult an employment attorney.

She might also want to ask what her performance-based cash bonus would be if she stayed (if she doesn't know that already, I wasn't clear). It's possible leadership might boost her bonus up as a way of incentivizing her to stay as well (and it would be a means of compensating her for this screwup in a way that allows them to save some face, too.) These seem like steps which might bring short term financial benefit without causing friction going forward, if she does indeed stay.

In truth, though, this company sounds like a nightmare. And even if it's just some bad actors in her unit leadership chain, there is no concrete assurance that the necessary changes would be made. Good luck to you both in working this out!

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Barefoot » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:20 pm

Whatever you decide to do, get the company's offer/agreement in writing.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by madbrain » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:27 pm

I was in a similar situation once. The company was having mass layoffs. This got announced a few months early. Only people with 10 years of service and over 50 were allowed to volunteer and I was neither. I had only been there 18 months and was younger. The package was pre announced: 6 months pay plus 6 months of cash payments to cover COBRA.
I had recently been transferred to a project I didn't care for.
I did as little work as possible. Meanwhile, I had been interviewing at another Megacorp and was waiting for an offer.
I got the offer from the new employer on a monday, and laid off on Tuesday. On Friday, I got a call from my previous employer. They wanted me back. But that would entail not getting the nice package. I told them I already had another job. That was my year of peak earnings.
Last year, I got laid off again, this time with a much stingier package : only 2 months, after working 7 years.
I somehow got back on my feet and landed a job at a FAANG.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Bacchus01 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm

milo minderbinder wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm
I used to work in the comp and benefits area. My view is she should try to keep the four months severance and, in connection with her reemployment, now that she knows terminations are on the table, receive an enforceable written undertaking that if she is terminated for any reason other than cause she shall receive two (or at least one) years salary and bonus target.
I hope you got out of that function. No employer is going to agree to that. I have seen CEO packages that don’t cover that. Good lord people, do you really think this is a negotiating position?

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by sergeant » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:31 am

I know exactly what happened and have all the facts and know exactly how much her company will offer her to come back. I sent the OP all the relevant information in a certified letter.







OP started a thread 6 months ago about taking possession/or not of a certified letter. It went four pages and he never came back to tell us what was in the letter.
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imyeti2
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by imyeti2 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:11 am

sergeant wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:31 am
I know exactly what happened and have all the facts and know exactly how much her company will offer her to come back. I sent the OP all the relevant information in a certified letter.







OP started a thread 6 months ago about taking possession/or not of a certified letter. It went four pages and he never came back to tell us what was in the letter.
OP never came back because the thread was closed by the moderator. The letter just had an invoice for "consulting services" that was promptly ignored.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Lucky Lemon » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:42 am

imyeti2 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

DW has received many phone calls since yesterday. From the COO (the business unit leader who made the decision reports to the COO) to someone else reporting to the CEO (lets call him X). Both of them are pleading her to say. They promise her that changes will take place and they are going to replace DW's leadership because they are aware of the mismanagement that is happening in her business unit. DW and X have a very good relationship (X is like a mentor to her) and therefore things started moving when X heard of the termination. X is aware of problems in DW's business unit and has requested on many occasions in the past that DW not leave the company fully aware of the mismanagement in her leadership. X rationales now that COO knows who DWs etc. so she has an advantage. Why leave to an unkown place?
“X” must not have much power or be well informed if this happened.
imyeti2 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm
Severance Package - ... but she would still be eligible for the cash bonus ...
Maybe. Depends on state law and company policy.
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Silk McCue » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:00 am

sergeant wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:31 am
I know exactly what happened and have all the facts and know exactly how much her company will offer her to come back. I sent the OP all the relevant information in a certified letter.
This is bit creepy. You know "exactly what happened and have all the facts ..." and you somehow found the OPs address and sent them a certified letter rather that sending them a private message on this board. If you think you know who the OP is I suggest that you not share that information, nor the contents of this post, with anyone else as that could be detrimental to the OP and wife.

Cheers

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:18 am

Silk McCue wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:00 am
sergeant wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:31 am
I know exactly what happened and have all the facts and know exactly how much her company will offer her to come back. I sent the OP all the relevant information in a certified letter.
This is bit creepy. You know "exactly what happened and have all the facts ..." and you somehow found the OPs address and sent them a certified letter rather that sending them a private message on this board. If you think you know who the OP is I suggest that you not share that information, nor the contents of this post, with anyone else as that could be detrimental to the OP and wife.

Cheers
I assumed the post was sarcasm, based upon all of the suggestions/statements about what OP's wife's options were, and what she could/should demand, etc.
(And then something about an earlier thread started by OP, per the second, lower section of the post.)

RM
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Silk McCue » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:27 am

ResearchMed wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:18 am

I assumed the post was sarcasm, based upon all of the suggestions/statements about what OP's wife's options were, and what she could/should demand, etc.
(And then something about an earlier thread started by OP, per the second, lower section of the post.)

RM
Then it was simply unhelpful and unnecessary.

Cheers

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by imyeti2 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:28 am

Lucky Lemon wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:42 am
imyeti2 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

DW has received many phone calls since yesterday. From the COO (the business unit leader who made the decision reports to the COO) to someone else reporting to the CEO (lets call him X). Both of them are pleading her to say. They promise her that changes will take place and they are going to replace DW's leadership because they are aware of the mismanagement that is happening in her business unit. DW and X have a very good relationship (X is like a mentor to her) and therefore things started moving when X heard of the termination. X is aware of problems in DW's business unit and has requested on many occasions in the past that DW not leave the company fully aware of the mismanagement in her leadership. X rationales now that COO knows who DWs etc. so she has an advantage. Why leave to an unkown place?
“X” must not have much power or be well informed if this happened.
X was the one that hired her 2 years ago but there was a regorg in which X was moved. X has power within the company but not in DW's unit and claims he was blindsided. DW has lot of respect for X and is the main reason she is even contemplating going back. This is a very small industry with everyone knowing everyone.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by KlangFool » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:32 am

imyeti2 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:28 am
Lucky Lemon wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:42 am
imyeti2 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

DW has received many phone calls since yesterday. From the COO (the business unit leader who made the decision reports to the COO) to someone else reporting to the CEO (lets call him X). Both of them are pleading her to say. They promise her that changes will take place and they are going to replace DW's leadership because they are aware of the mismanagement that is happening in her business unit. DW and X have a very good relationship (X is like a mentor to her) and therefore things started moving when X heard of the termination. X is aware of problems in DW's business unit and has requested on many occasions in the past that DW not leave the company fully aware of the mismanagement in her leadership. X rationales now that COO knows who DWs etc. so she has an advantage. Why leave to an unkown place?
“X” must not have much power or be well informed if this happened.
X was the one that hired her 2 years ago but there was a regorg in which X was moved. X has power within the company but not in DW's unit and claims he was blindsided. DW has lot of respect for X and is the main reason she is even contemplating going back. This is a very small industry with everyone knowing everyone.
imyeti2,

Then, your wife should

A) Thank X for his/her help regardless of the outcome. Show appreciation.

B) Ask X what she should do next? Or, get X to negotiate a good deal to get her back.

KlangFool

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Darth Xanadu » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:36 am

Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm
milo minderbinder wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm
enforceable written undertaking that if she is terminated for any reason other than cause she shall receive two (or at least one) years salary and bonus target.
I hope you got out of that function. No employer is going to agree to that. I have seen CEO packages that don’t cover that. Good lord people, do you really think this is a negotiating position?
This happened regularly at a former employer of mine. Granted, it was for individuals with highly specialized skill sets in a highly paid industry, but we often saw 2 (or more) year guarantees of this nature. I'm not suggesting OP's wife will get this, but it's certainly not unheard of.
"A courageous teacher, failure is."

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by hornet96 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:54 am

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:32 am

imyeti2,

Then, your wife should

A) Thank X for his/her help regardless of the outcome. Show appreciation.

B) Ask X what she should do next? Or, get X to negotiate a good deal to get her back.

KlangFool
+1. Best advice in this thread. If "X" really supports her as much as she thinks, he will go to bat for her in these discussions. If not, then the decision becomes easier from there.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by dm200 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:51 pm

simas wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:38 am
What is really surprising to me is to hear is the description of the initial 'call' - and I wonder whether she received anything in writing and whether there were witnesses. I have done layoffs, have been laid off, I never seen it without
a) witness present (even on the call)
b) in writing communication (we regret to inform blah-blah-blah, you are subject to provisions of document X as set forth in blah-blah-blah)

this is never handled without someone in HR present

and yes, HR person up in the thread gives the best advice. get details of whether she is or isn't currently in the program to be laid off, and then plan from there. start looking, have conversation(s) with powers that be in the current place if they can make it right..
Yes - notification by phone call seems very odd to me.

I have been "down sized" twice over my careers. One was in person and immediate (handled very well) and the other was written with a several week window while still employed to find some other position in MegaCorp. I was unable to find such a position.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by milo minderbinder » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:26 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm
milo minderbinder wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm
I used to work in the comp and benefits area. My view is she should try to keep the four months severance and, in connection with her reemployment, now that she knows terminations are on the table, receive an enforceable written undertaking that if she is terminated for any reason other than cause she shall receive two (or at least one) years salary and bonus target.
I hope you got out of that function. No employer is going to agree to that. I have seen CEO packages that don’t cover that. Good lord people, do you really think this is a negotiating position?
I worked at a mid cap public company. A number of individuals - other than top five officers - were able to negotiate this kind of protection, particularly during a difficult time for the Company when retention was of paramount concern.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by madbrain » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:19 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:51 pm
Yes - notification by phone call seems very odd to me.

I have been "down sized" twice over my careers. One was in person and immediate (handled very well) and the other was written with a several week window while still employed to find some other position in MegaCorp. I was unable to find such a position.
I was laid off once by mail while on disability, once over video conference, and once in person. For those last 2, there was no HR present.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by simas » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:17 pm

milo minderbinder wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:26 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm
milo minderbinder wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm
I used to work in the comp and benefits area. My view is she should try to keep the four months severance and, in connection with her reemployment, now that she knows terminations are on the table, receive an enforceable written undertaking that if she is terminated for any reason other than cause she shall receive two (or at least one) years salary and bonus target.
I hope you got out of that function. No employer is going to agree to that. I have seen CEO packages that don’t cover that. Good lord people, do you really think this is a negotiating position?
I worked at a mid cap public company. A number of individuals - other than top five officers - were able to negotiate this kind of protection, particularly during a difficult time for the Company when retention was of paramount concern.
That is the catch - she is not an officer of the position, at will employee. so many people here vastly overestimate their negotiating power and their comments may create situations that actually hurt the person's changes rather than advance them.

If I were her, I would simple ask X work it through the system. that person gets the political credit if that works (and she gets what she wants). that also require for her to know what she wants and not screw around with 'well.. what can I get' BS. She also needs to know whether she does or does not want to work there.

I had two scenarios of me being laid off that went completely different way
- in one case, my boss of the company that bought ours decided to fly in from out of town unannounced, declared "we are making the change" and appointed my underling to run the unit. Great, I am out then since you fired me today is my last day and I no longer have obligations under transition and retention agreements as part of management team you bought (I could not leave without giving up money but they could fire me with money still there) - have fun. Oh,no! (utter panic, this was not discussed or approved by powers that be) . we will pitch you new position in 30 minutes, we will make up something, you can not walk away! what would X think ?!
15 minutes of walking out for lunch get call from CEO of my unit asking WTF , give her status , she calls her boss (person who bought company from her) with WTF (!!) , we work out over the phone some ridiculous rate to handle SME "transition" for 60 days starting tomorrow , if they do terminate early they pay for that period in full regardless.. the root here is that I did not wanted to work for them and wanted out, when they decided to screw me like this I saw this as light at the end of the tunnel and bolted while honoring my committments to CEO for transitions (if she would not ask I would not came back for a second for any money)


- second scenario is my boss who brought me in suddenly departs and they are talking new people, changes ,etc. very quickly , my new manager and CEO ask to talk, we write out rules, they create a "memo" providing 12 month guarantee and I end up loving the place working their for 10 years and becoming very good friend with both new manager and CEO. but I did not gave up on the place and went into the conversation/negotiation with interest of working it out.

which position is your wife in?

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by quantAndHold » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:36 pm

At the senior level, a lot of this stuff is about politics. It wouldn't surprise me if DW's current supervisor threw her under the bus.

I would make returning to the company contingent on moving into X's business unit.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Dottie57 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:50 pm

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:10 pm
Someone mentioned maybe they can’t accerate the vesting of stock due to plan rules. Fine, but they can grant an equivalent amount of unrestricted stock or pay you the cash value of the stock as if it vested and were sold.

The more I think about this though the more I think your wife should find another job. She should probably also get all of these goodies from current employer and then start her job search immediately. Something kooky is going on here and things have been revealed to her that perhaps she didn’t know before—somewhere along the chain she was seen as dispensable or not having the impact she thought she had. That’s hard to come back from.
Something does sound strange. Take the job back and look for new job. Company is not worth it.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by dbr » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:00 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:50 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:10 pm
Someone mentioned maybe they can’t accerate the vesting of stock due to plan rules. Fine, but they can grant an equivalent amount of unrestricted stock or pay you the cash value of the stock as if it vested and were sold.

The more I think about this though the more I think your wife should find another job. She should probably also get all of these goodies from current employer and then start her job search immediately. Something kooky is going on here and things have been revealed to her that perhaps she didn’t know before—somewhere along the chain she was seen as dispensable or not having the impact she thought she had. That’s hard to come back from.
Something does sound strange. Take the job back and look for new job. Company is not worth it.
I would add that successfully bargaining for a windfall of punitive compensation will not end well in the long run. The result could also be a reputation that will go unfortunately far.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by randomguy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:01 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:36 pm
At the senior level, a lot of this stuff is about politics. It wouldn't surprise me if DW's current supervisor threw her under the bus.

I would make returning to the company contingent on moving into X's business unit.

Or the one above the current supervisor. People here are blaming HR but it sure doesn't sound like an accidental firing where HR screwed up. It comes across as someone in her chain had to cut costs and she was a casualty. Politics, performance perception, or whatever. Some people outside her chain went to bat for her and here we are.

Telling the exMentor that you are worried about getting laid off again in 6 months and what can they do seems like a reasonable start. Also figuring out if you need to report to someone else might be worth discussing. As to how much leverage she has, who knows. And what is the cost of exerting that leverage is another. I have no clue if she was officially laid off versus just being told. I have no clue if things like benefits, vesting, and so on reset or continued but i have to imagine they would make you whole at a minimum. Asking for 2 year contracts or 6 months worth of bonuses might be pushing it and at some point people go from supporting you to saying man this person is overreacting. It is a fine line.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Afty » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:23 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:36 pm
At the senior level, a lot of this stuff is about politics. It wouldn't surprise me if DW's current supervisor threw her under the bus.

I would make returning to the company contingent on moving into X's business unit.
+1. Under no circumstances would I remain in the reporting chain of the person who had fired me. I feel that any compensation discussion is secondary to this.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by inbox788 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:18 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm
I hope you got out of that function. No employer is going to agree to that. I have seen CEO packages that don’t cover that. Good lord people, do you really think this is a negotiating position?
She may not get all that, but sure it's all about negotiation. You know the expression about not being paid what you're worth, but what you negotiate. Willingness to negotiate is a factor in the gender gap. Gender is a sensitive subject and open discussion may be limited by legal liabilities, but it's one of the elephants in the room, so if it's a factor, use it to your advantage to reach parity if not go past.

Has DW looked around or received any offers? Contacted any recruiters? You can be honest and tell them you're currently working (without getting into the specific situation) and may not be ready to move, but want to see what's your current worth and what's currently out there.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by Jags4186 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:52 pm

See if you can get the severance as a retention bonus in order to return. Perhaps have the records changed to a leave of absence vs a termination. Then immediately start looking for a new job and get out of dodge.

Employees should look out for their own best interests always. I wouldn’t worry about your “reputation” over this. You have a perfect answer if it were ever to come up—“I was laid off. They decided later I was too vital to the business so they attempted to retain me. I took them up on the offer because I needed employment but no longer felt secure or trustful of the company and looked for greener pastures.”

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by NMBob » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:35 pm

If you don't somehow inquire with the company how you can protect or be covered in case of being fired 6 months from now...I would think you would look foolish and weak. Nothing wrong from presenting this obvious issue to them.

Also, don't be afraid to inquire about possible openings at a competitor before you decide. Why not know what all your choices are?
Wish the best for you.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by tibbitts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:29 pm

inbox788 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:18 pm
Bacchus01 wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:23 pm
I hope you got out of that function. No employer is going to agree to that. I have seen CEO packages that don’t cover that. Good lord people, do you really think this is a negotiating position?
She may not get all that, but sure it's all about negotiation. You know the expression about not being paid what you're worth, but what you negotiate. Willingness to negotiate is a factor in the gender gap. Gender is a sensitive subject and open discussion may be limited by legal liabilities, but it's one of the elephants in the room, so if it's a factor, use it to your advantage to reach parity if not go past.

Has DW looked around or received any offers? Contacted any recruiters? You can be honest and tell them you're currently working (without getting into the specific situation) and may not be ready to move, but want to see what's your current worth and what's currently out there.
The thing about negotiation is that sometimes if you start by asking for too much, you get nothing - or in cases of employment, just end up terminated. I've seen this happen. There is survivorship bias here: lots of Bogleheads have negotiated and won (and thus are here discussing what to do with their considerable investments), so they're likely to believe that what worked for them will work for other people. Sometimes life is more a matter of luck than we like to admit.

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imyeti2
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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by imyeti2 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:10 am

So an update to this.

They came back with an offer of ~6 weeks of pay to have her join back, however with a 1 year commitment to stay. Constant calls from all levels of leadership to the point that she is physically tired of speaking to everyone.

Nothing can be done about the RSUs because of company policy.

Verbal promise that things will change and she will be able to enjoy a lot more freedom than before.

We did contact a recruiter who suggested to stay given that senior level positions are difficult to come by. There are many many junior level positions opening regularly but it takes time for senior positions to open and recruit.

I also approached an employment attorney (not disclosing to DW). That individual wanted to talk/negotiate with the employer directly. This is something we would not want because of future prospects given the industry is small and everyone knows everyone.

So in the end, DW is leaning toward staying with the offer that has been made and see how things pan out in the future.

Thank you all for your comment/suggestions/support.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by 8foot7 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:18 am

Is that her making a one year commitment to stay or them making a one year commitment to her in writing?

To me, this is not enough, and if she is truly as valuable as you say, she shouldn't have much of a problem finding another role.

This smacks of them wanting to milk her for several months to make sure the things she touches and manages are directly transitioned over to other folks before they give her the heave-ho.

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Re: Need Help - DW Laid Off and Company wants her back now

Post by dm200 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 am

imyeti2 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:10 am
So an update to this.
They came back with an offer of ~6 weeks of pay to have her join back, however with a 1 year commitment to stay. Constant calls from all levels of leadership to the point that she is physically tired of speaking to everyone.
Nothing can be done about the RSUs because of company policy.
Verbal promise that things will change and she will be able to enjoy a lot more freedom than before.
We did contact a recruiter who suggested to stay given that senior level positions are difficult to come by. There are many many junior level positions opening regularly but it takes time for senior positions to open and recruit.
I also approached an employment attorney (not disclosing to DW). That individual wanted to talk/negotiate with the employer directly. This is something we would not want because of future prospects given the industry is small and everyone knows everyone.

So in the end, DW is leaning toward staying with the offer that has been made and see how things pan out in the future.

Thank you all for your comment/suggestions/support.
Seems reasonable to me.

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