Chase credit card dispute - denied

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BogleWogle
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by BogleWogle » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:30 pm

If the recent info from Avis doesn’t resolve the issue with Chase, I would recommend filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Easy to do online and the information in this thread seems to outline the facts clearly.

I’ve gone this route a couple times (other companies than Chase though) and issues were resolved to my satisfaction.

If that doesn’t work, I’d sever ties with Chase... permanently.

Best of luck.

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:22 pm

I'm confused - did Avis say they would refund the charge? If they did, you should also contact customer service and have them issue a refund for whatever interest Chase charges you; although it seems that Chase hasn't charged you any interest? Also, many credit card companies, including Chase, will refund interest the first time as a matter of course.

I don't understand why you're directing all of your frustration at Chase. Sure, it's fair to be upset with their conclusion, but it seems to me that 99% of the blame is on Avis here.

If Avis is unwilling to assist, and that's a big "if", you can file a complaint with the NJ Division of Consumer Affairs. Do not jump the gun here. Let Avis get back to you with an official response. If they officially state that they will not issue the refund, attach that, along with the letter from your employer, to the complaint. The more information you can provide for the initial review to the state, the better. If you have Verizon for your cell phone, you should be able to get the location record from your phone bill. Attach that as well. I'd recommend not mentioning Chase at all in your complaint.

LBTRS
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by LBTRS » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm

This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.

DrGoogle2017
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by DrGoogle2017 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:29 pm

You need to propagate this to higher up. I’ve disputed so many charges in the last few months, some with Chases, some with Citi bank, they all took my side, even when I’m wrong. I called way ahead if I suspect something.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:32 pm

LBTRS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm
This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.
I'm not sure how this became such a problem, although obviously it did.

Avis isn't the only company that keeps "cards [numbers] on file".
Surely there have been at least occasional errors other times, at Avis or other vendors, given the numbers of customers who must have "cards on file" at a variety of places.

Yes, it seems it is an Avis mistake, but this somehow seems to have gotten seriously out of control, especially if Avis DID, eventually, acknowledge the error...??

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

Luckywon
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:03 pm

euroswiss wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:22 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:39 am
Chase's position on this is absolutely apalling and shameful, on so many levels, IMO.

Ironically, just yesterday I applied for my first Chase credit ever, i.e. an Amazon Prime Rewards card. This story makes me think that was a mistake. I do buy a lot on Amazon so the 5 % back may still be too tempting to pass up. At the least, though, I will keep that credit card under lock and key and only use it for Amazon purchases. Maybe I will also ask for a low credit limit.

You should not have had to make the efforts you did to get this on the right track Kudos to you for persevering. It sounds like this will be resolved in your favor but if it does not I wonder if small claims court is an option, either suing Avis or Chase. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the contracts we are under are subject to arbitration.
You could ditch the new Amazon Chase Credit card and apply for the Amazon Store card (that is issued by Synchrony Bank) instead. It pays 5% cash-back also, but is good at Amazon only (which should be ok if that is all you use it for anyhow).
Fantastic idea. Actually I was not approved for the Chase card because of my credit freeze, I was waiting to hear from them which reporting agency to unlock. Perfect timing, and thank you!

Luckywon
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:17 pm

aristotelian wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:19 am
Seems like Avis's fault. When Chase investigated, they denied and gave Chase evidence that it was you. From Chase's standpoint, it looks like a legit transaction. I would expect that Avis will make you whole. If not, consider directing your efforts toward them.
Retired2013 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:29 am
Everybody is saying Chase is wrong but isn't it a Avis problem? Yet we keep doing business with the vendors that cause the problem!
LBTRS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm
This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.
I agree this sounds like an Avis error but IMO Chase is not performing well either. The whole point of the charge dispute process is that they back up the credit card holder (when he/she is right) and hold the merchant to some standard proving that the customer is responsible for the charges. It's pretty obvious Chase did not do this, just by the fact they ruled in Avis' favor when OP was 1000 miles away :oops:

I've used AMEX and Citibank to dispute charges and have prevailed every time, with no fuss whatsoever.

lstone19
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by lstone19 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:19 pm

Retired2013 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:52 pm

The problem now is that Avis needs to charge the correct preferred renters profile and credit you back. Only Avis can do this. HOWEVER, since you and Chase cancelled the credit card that should be credited back, when Avis does this it will most likely REJECT at Chase. The credit card is CLOSED.
The account is not closed, just the old card number is blocked for new charges. The card number still exists in Chase's system, is tied to the new card number, and can still accept merchant refunds.

My experience every time I've gone through the fraud process is a new card number is issued but the account (with some super-secret internal number we never see) is still the same account which is why everything seamlessly transfers over to what appears to be a new account.

lstone19
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by lstone19 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:31 pm

Trism wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:11 am
I always try to resolve the matter with the merchant before disputing the charge with the credit card company.
I do too when it's tied to what was my legitimate use of the card at that merchant.

But in this case, OP was alerted to a charge at a merchant he's used but not recently. At that point, I'd be thinking the card number has been compromised and calling the card issuer to get it shut down NOW. And then given he was not a party to the transaction, it's not really his job to try to resolve it with the merchant. And while it does not appear to have been criminal fraud, it was a merchant error with the legitimate card holder not a party at all to the transaction.

Luckywon
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:35 pm

lstone19 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:31 pm
Trism wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:11 am
I always try to resolve the matter with the merchant before disputing the charge with the credit card company.
I do too when it's tied to what was my legitimate use of the card at that merchant.

But in this case, OP was alerted to a charge at a merchant he's used but not recently. At that point, I'd be thinking the card number has been compromised and calling the card issuer to get it shut down NOW. And then given he was not a party to the transaction, it's not really his job to try to resolve it with the merchant. And while it does not appear to have been criminal fraud, it was a merchant error with the legitimate card holder not a party at all to the transaction.
Nicely put and so correct.

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tibbitts
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:38 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:32 pm
LBTRS wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:26 pm
This seems like an Avis problem not a Chase problem as the card was not used fraudulently. The card was used by mistake by Avis. Chase should not be on the hook for Avis's error.
I'm not sure how this became such a problem, although obviously it did.

Avis isn't the only company that keeps "cards [numbers] on file".
Surely there have been at least occasional errors other times, at Avis or other vendors, given the numbers of customers who must have "cards on file" at a variety of places.

Yes, it seems it is an Avis mistake, but this somehow seems to have gotten seriously out of control, especially if Avis DID, eventually, acknowledge the error...??

RM
Mostly the problem in both cases has been extremely poor customer service procedures, placing so many impediments to reaching anyone who could actually address the issues.

Assuming Avis has actually resolved the issue (I have not yet received email confirmation from them but have requested it, and am told the credit will take 5 days or so to process), it will only be because I repeatedly contacted them and repeatedly requested to speak to a supervisor or someone in their resolution department. The other reps would just repeatedly take reports and I would have to repeat the same information again and again. The first-level reps spend almost all their effort trying to keep customers away from anyone who can actually resolve problems. I've learned from other experiences that just because one or more persons in a company may acknowledge an error and identify a resolution, it doesn't mean that that will turn out to be the company's position.

As for Chase, it's frustrating to me that after I've had both my business and personal bank accounts plus two business and from two to four personal credit cards (this was a personal credit card, United Explorer) with them for so many years, Chase saw that because I had rented from Avis eighteen months previously, thousands of miles away, I had established a "pattern of using that merchant", and at least partly on that basis decided that I lied about this sub-$200 charge.

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:06 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:38 pm

As for Chase, it's frustrating to me that after I've had both my business and personal bank accounts plus two business and from two to four personal credit cards (this was a personal credit card, United Explorer) with them for so many years, Chase saw that because I had rented from Avis eighteen months previously, thousands of miles away, I had established a "pattern of using that merchant", and at least partly on that basis decided that I lied about this sub-$200 charge.
This is, and should be, wholly irrelevant to the dispute process.

Your mistake was that you didn't contact Avis first. You immediately disputed the charge with Chase, somehow before it even posted, which I still don't understand how that happened.

Had you contacted Avis first, you'd know what they were claiming and what was going on, so you could clearly and properly frame your Chase dispute.

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm

Luckywon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:35 pm
lstone19 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:31 pm
Trism wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:11 am
I always try to resolve the matter with the merchant before disputing the charge with the credit card company.
I do too when it's tied to what was my legitimate use of the card at that merchant.

But in this case, OP was alerted to a charge at a merchant he's used but not recently. At that point, I'd be thinking the card number has been compromised and calling the card issuer to get it shut down NOW. And then given he was not a party to the transaction, it's not really his job to try to resolve it with the merchant. And while it does not appear to have been criminal fraud, it was a merchant error with the legitimate card holder not a party at all to the transaction.
Nicely put and so correct.
I disagree. If you can contact the merchant, that should always be your first contact. Aside from the fact that the banks always ask whether you attempted to resolve the issue with the merchant first and lying on that question could be grounds for the bank to deny your chargeback, it also helps you understand what's going on as I mentioned above. Especially in this case, you'd want Avis to know as soon as possible that it wasn't you who was renting the car, because the liability could be a lot greater than the relatively small charge for the rental. If you just dispute the charge with the credit card company, it takes much longer for Avis to be made aware of the issue.

Finally, disputing a charge, even successfully, does not absolve your liability to the merchant. If they truly believe you are responsible for the charge, and the charge is large enough, they could come after you for recovery.

lstone19
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by lstone19 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:39 pm

velociraptor9 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm
I disagree. If you can contact the merchant, that should always be your first contact. Aside from the fact that the banks always ask whether you attempted to resolve the issue with the merchant first and lying on that question could be grounds for the bank to deny your chargeback, it also helps you understand what's going on as I mentioned above. Especially in this case, you'd want Avis to know as soon as possible that it wasn't you who was renting the car, because the liability could be a lot greater than the relatively small charge for the rental. If you just dispute the charge with the credit card company, it takes much longer for Avis to be made aware of the issue.
I'll disagree back. If I get an alert saying my card has been used at Avis but at a location I was not at, even if I'm a regular customer, I'm suspecting the card number has been compromised and going in that direction. At which point, based on my experience, their fraud procedure takes over and they ask you to verify recent charges. Once you say "was not me", the fraud process is started and I've never heard of a card issuer then asking you to contact the merchant.

Katietsu
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Katietsu » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:43 pm

velociraptor9 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm
If you can contact the merchant, that should always be your first contact. Aside from the fact that the banks always ask whether you attempted to resolve the issue with the merchant first and lying on that question could be grounds for the bank to deny your chargeback, it also helps you understand what's going on as I mentioned above. Especially in this case, you'd want Avis to know as soon as possible that it wasn't you who was renting the car, because the liability could be a lot greater than the relatively small charge for the rental. If you just dispute the charge with the credit card company, it takes much longer for Avis to be made aware of the issue.

Finally, disputing a charge, even successfully, does not absolve your liability to the merchant. If they truly believe you are responsible for the charge, and the charge is large enough, they could come after you for recovery.
I so agree. There are too many people who do not seem to understand these responsibilities and liabilities.

lstone19
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by lstone19 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:03 am

Katietsu wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:43 pm
velociraptor9 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm
If you can contact the merchant, that should always be your first contact. Aside from the fact that the banks always ask whether you attempted to resolve the issue with the merchant first and lying on that question could be grounds for the bank to deny your chargeback, it also helps you understand what's going on as I mentioned above. Especially in this case, you'd want Avis to know as soon as possible that it wasn't you who was renting the car, because the liability could be a lot greater than the relatively small charge for the rental. If you just dispute the charge with the credit card company, it takes much longer for Avis to be made aware of the issue.

Finally, disputing a charge, even successfully, does not absolve your liability to the merchant. If they truly believe you are responsible for the charge, and the charge is large enough, they could come after you for recovery.
I so agree. There are too many people who do not seem to understand these responsibilities and liabilities.
I agree - if this was a dispute over a charge that I made. But there's a world of difference here as although the OP had previously done business with Avis, he did not do so recently nor at that location. It is not the cardholder's responsibility to contact unknown merchants or unknown locations of a known merchant regarding charges the cardholder was not a party to.

Would you seriously suggest that because I've used a credit card at McDonald's where I live, if a charge from a McDonald's 1,000 miles away in a town I've never been to showed up, I should call that McDonald's rather than report it as fraud?

Luckywon
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:04 am

Katietsu wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:43 pm
velociraptor9 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm
If you can contact the merchant, that should always be your first contact. Aside from the fact that the banks always ask whether you attempted to resolve the issue with the merchant first and lying on that question could be grounds for the bank to deny your chargeback, it also helps you understand what's going on as I mentioned above. Especially in this case, you'd want Avis to know as soon as possible that it wasn't you who was renting the car, because the liability could be a lot greater than the relatively small charge for the rental. If you just dispute the charge with the credit card company, it takes much longer for Avis to be made aware of the issue.
I so agree. There are too many people who do not seem to understand these responsibilities and liabilities.
Even if you are correct the merchant should be contacted first (and I disagree, I think it was perfectly reasonable in this case for OP to contact the credit card company), OP did eventually contact both the merchant and the credit card company several times, still with no final resolution. He should have prevailed quickly no matter whom he contacted first. He should not have had to jump through the hoops that he did. Chase could and should have helped him resolve this, IMO.

velociraptor9 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm

Finally, disputing a charge, even successfully, does not absolve your liability to the merchant. If they truly believe you are responsible for the charge, and the charge is large enough, they could come after you for recovery.
This is true, but what relevance does this have to the discussion here? OP knows he is not responsible for the charges. There is no good evidence he made or is responsible for the charges. I would not be dissuaded by concern about getting sued by Avis if Chase reverses the charges.

bayview
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by bayview » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:15 am

velociraptor9 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 pm
Luckywon wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:35 pm
lstone19 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:31 pm
Trism wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:11 am
I always try to resolve the matter with the merchant before disputing the charge with the credit card company.
I do too when it's tied to what was my legitimate use of the card at that merchant.

But in this case, OP was alerted to a charge at a merchant he's used but not recently. At that point, I'd be thinking the card number has been compromised and calling the card issuer to get it shut down NOW. And then given he was not a party to the transaction, it's not really his job to try to resolve it with the merchant. And while it does not appear to have been criminal fraud, it was a merchant error with the legitimate card holder not a party at all to the transaction.
Nicely put and so correct.
I disagree. If you can contact the merchant, that should always be your first contact. Aside from the fact that the banks always ask whether you attempted to resolve the issue with the merchant first and lying on that question could be grounds for the bank to deny your chargeback, it also helps you understand what's going on as I mentioned above. Especially in this case, you'd want Avis to know as soon as possible that it wasn't you who was renting the car, because the liability could be a lot greater than the relatively small charge for the rental. If you just dispute the charge with the credit card company, it takes much longer for Avis to be made aware of the issue.

Finally, disputing a charge, even successfully, does not absolve your liability to the merchant. If they truly believe you are responsible for the charge, and the charge is large enough, they could come after you for recovery.
I don’t agree. However, my takeaway from all this:

- contact the CC company about apparent illegitimate use of the card.
- as soon as ^^^ call is finished, contact the merchant.

I would call the CC company first in case this was your standard credit card hack, with the new owner of your card headed to Best Buy for a serious and multiple TV upgrade. THAT’S the potential major damage.

Then call the merchant in case (as happened here), there were some specific details of the transaction that might help explain WTH was going on.

But all that being said, this sure puts Chase in a very poor light. Gosh, it’s as if that now they have lost that revenue stream of conning their customers into signing up for additional services (or signing up for them), they are making money a whole new way! :P
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:37 am

lstone19 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:03 am

I agree - if this was a dispute over a charge that I made. But there's a world of difference here as although the OP had previously done business with Avis, he did not do so recently nor at that location. It is not the cardholder's responsibility to contact unknown merchants or unknown locations of a known merchant regarding charges the cardholder was not a party to.

Would you seriously suggest that because I've used a credit card at McDonald's where I live, if a charge from a McDonald's 1,000 miles away in a town I've never been to showed up, I should call that McDonald's rather than report it as fraud?
Even though it may not be the cardholder's responsibility, it will help at winning the dispute.

The McDonald's example is not the same. With Avis, OP authorized the merchant to charge the card in the future, without the card being presented. Avis' contract with the networks, authorizes this method of charging. McDonald's, and similar retail locations do not have this authority.

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:49 am

Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:04 am
OP knows he is not responsible for the charges. There is no good evidence he made or is responsible for the charges. I would not be dissuaded by concern about getting sued by Avis if Chase reverses the charges.
I would not be dissuaded either, but I'm not the one that did the chargeback. ;) (just a little comic relief)

It's relevant because it's an additional risk you're taking. Sure, you may end up prevailing if it goes to collections or court. But even if you're guaranteed to prevail (which while here would be the correct outcome, I have much less confidence that it's a guaranteed win), it's still something that could potentially come back to you years down the line when you have much less information to support that it wasn't you, and Avis has less discoverable information that could lead to your ability to prove it wasn't you.

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:01 am

bayview wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:15 am

I don’t agree. However, my takeaway from all this:

- contact the CC company about apparent illegitimate use of the card.
- as soon as ^^^ call is finished, contact the merchant.

I would call the CC company first in case this was your standard credit card hack, with the new owner of your card headed to Best Buy for a serious and multiple TV upgrade. THAT’S the potential major damage.

Then call the merchant in case (as happened here), there were some specific details of the transaction that might help explain WTH was going on.

But all that being said, this sure puts Chase in a very poor light. Gosh, it’s as if that now they have lost that revenue stream of conning their customers into signing up for additional services (or signing up for them), they are making money a whole new way! :P
As I said previously, if you contact the merchant first, you can develop an understanding of what their position is on the charge so you can properly frame the dispute.

There are a variety of dispute procedures depending on the nature of the dispute. For each dispute category, the merchant is required to provide a certain set of evidence to prevail. If the merchant can provide that, they prevail. Chase doesn't have unilateral authority. This is why it's important to get the dispute correct the first time.

Of course, Chase could decide to just credit the cardholder and eat the loss, but that obviously wasn't what they wanted to do here. It's not a "revenue stream" since they come out even.

Luckywon
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Luckywon » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:13 am

velociraptor9 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:49 am
Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:04 am
OP knows he is not responsible for the charges. There is no good evidence he made or is responsible for the charges. I would not be dissuaded by concern about getting sued by Avis if Chase reverses the charges.
I would not be dissuaded either, but I'm not the one that did the chargeback. ;) (just a little comic relief)

It's relevant because it's an additional risk you're taking. Sure, you may end up prevailing if it goes to collections or court. But even if you're guaranteed to prevail (which while here would be the correct outcome, I have much less confidence that it's a guaranteed win), it's still something that could potentially come back to you years down the line when you have much less information to support that it wasn't you, and Avis has less discoverable information that could lead to your ability to prove it wasn't you.
You make a good case for doing it the way you have said but the issue here that stands out to me most is the appalling attitude shown and customer service provided by Chase. It's so different than what I have received from AMEX. The bottom line for me is OP got embroiled in something through no fault of his own and both Chase and Avis could have done far better than they did to resolve this.

michaeljc70
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:45 am

Thecallofduty wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:10 pm
You informed chase you had fradulent charge and they still put the charge back on? That sounds unusual. Did you not have your card cancelled immediately after your first call with the bank?
Something does not sound right.
I agree. I have never had a credit card company question if I claimed a charge was fraudulent (and I have had 3k+ in one crack fraudulent charges). I suspect a preferred card or profile (in error) being used made this situation unique. Think of it this way. Who would go into a store and give a reward card or something like that and then use a stolen card? Chase and Avis messed this up.

Trism
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Trism » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:33 am

lstone19 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:31 pm
Trism wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:11 am
I always try to resolve the matter with the merchant before disputing the charge with the credit card company.
I do too when it's tied to what was my legitimate use of the card at that merchant.

But in this case, OP was alerted to a charge at a merchant he's used but not recently. At that point, I'd be thinking the card number has been compromised and calling the card issuer to get it shut down NOW. And then given he was not a party to the transaction, it's not really his job to try to resolve it with the merchant. And while it does not appear to have been criminal fraud, it was a merchant error with the legitimate card holder not a party at all to the transaction.
Avis is a well-known legitimate company, which was a factor in my recommendation to contact the merchant first.

I wouldn't spend three weeks convincing a legitimate merchant that the problem is on their end, but I would start there nonetheless.

If this was a random PayPal charge and I'd never heard of the merchant I'd go to the credit card company first.

I'm generally looking for the path of least resistance.

onourway
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by onourway » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:30 am

Jimmie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:40 am
This was not fraud. It was a mistake on Avis' part. It would be their due diligence to contact the other party with a similar name to get this straightened out.

I travel lots for business. If I did not receive a receipt, I would question that omission. And, I would not be upset if I received a charge for a car I legitimately rented in the case it was overlooked weeks ago prior.

Keep pursuing this, but only with Avis. It was their mistake in posting a legitimate charge (not fraudulent) to the wrong person.
While in this case it turns out it was probably an accident, from the card-owner’s point of view, I fail to see how this is any different than fraud. His card was used for a purchase that he did not authorize. That’s fraud. I would absolutely have started with Chase on this process, and I would also have notified them as soon as the transaction was pending because I would have seen it well before it’d posted and wanted to get on top of it. Chase’s position here is not reassuring, from a customer with an easy 6 figures of credit from them.

@tibbitts - if proving your physical location is still of any value, if you have a cell phone those records would be able to prove your whereabouts.

velociraptor9
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by velociraptor9 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:30 am

Luckywon wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:13 am
You make a good case for doing it the way you have said but the issue here that stands out to me most is the appalling attitude shown and customer service provided by Chase. It's so different than what I have received from AMEX. The bottom line for me is OP got embroiled in something through no fault of his own and both Chase and Avis could have done far better than they did to resolve this.
That's fair, I'm just saying that the anger is better directed at Avis. This is otherwise a very fringe case, and to not cancel Chase cards as a result of this seems to me to be the wrong choice (especially for people other than the OP), but to each his own. I'm just trying to provide some color based on what probably happened and what caused Chase to conclude the charge was legitimate. Chase is not the final arbiter here, they are obligated to implement Visa's rules, since Visa makes the final determination if it goes that far.

I agree that Amex is the best, but it's a bit of an unfair comparison for Chase, because Amex is (generally) the issuer and the network, and thus it has unilateral authority.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:38 am

velociraptor9 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:37 am
With Avis, OP authorized the merchant to charge the card in the future, without the card being presented. Avis' contract with the networks, authorizes this method of charging.
I'm willing to bet OP never authorized Avis to charge his card for a rental he did not make at a location at which he was not present, and no merchant contract would permit Avis to bill his card at will even for transactions he did not make.

I'm with the folks who'd go to the card issuer first if I see a charge I did not make, whether it's with a merchant I frequent, a merchant I may have been to before, or a merchant I've never heard of. If I didn't authorize the charge, it's fraud, whether intentional or not, and even if I'm able to resolve a fraudulent charge with one merchant, who knows where else my card number might have been leaked? It'd be playing a game of whack-a-mole. Best to cut off a compromised card at the head.

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tibbitts
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by tibbitts » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:58 am

To clarify the contact situation:

1. As with any cardholder, when I saw an unauthorized transaction on my card I contacted the bank within a few minutes of when the transaction had occurred and had them shut down the card. I don't think an argument can be made for any other first response when I knew the transaction has occurred minutes before a thousand miles away.

2. The minute I got off the phone with Chase I called Avis. What I think a number of discussions in this thread don't recognize is that as I learned, even when time is seemingly a factor, you can't speak to someone who can actually respond. The front-line customer service people can only take reports and put them into a queue. Avis could have immediately contacted a manager at the Avis location and might have been able to resolve the problem then, but procedure prevented them from doing that. It was like I was discussing a problem that had happened a month or year ago, not thirty minutes ago. Perhaps I should have looked for the local Avis phone number and contacted them instead of corporate, but based on my considerable past experience with trying to contact airport rental car locations by phone, I chose to call Avis corporate instead, believing that they would have an out-of-band method to contact management at the location if necessary, that wouldn't be accessible to me.

I did not immediately get any response from Avis that was similar to the eventual story I got more than a month later, so at that point it was still a fraud situation as far as I knew.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by MnD » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:58 am

This just seems like an annoying mistake by Avis that finally got corrected. Service work employers in general and especially ones like Avis at major airports are struggling to find competent employees able to manage complex systems for low pay with bad hours.

The only interesting thing is that Visa took action on an authorization (cancelling the card) ahead of the charge posting. I've called a couple of times over the years on seemingly bad authorizations and was told both times by the CC issuer that they wouldn't take any action until the charge actually posted. They explained that many authorizations made by vendors that look wrong or possibly are wrong will be modified by the vendor before the final charge posts. I wonder if the OP didn't force Visa to cancel the card prior to them seeing the actual charge posting and against their advice, and that set this situation off on the wrong foot.
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:36 am

tibbitts wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:45 am
viz wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:16 am
I would remove the card from Avis profile. When I book they ask for a card which I enter. Also, I have always seen them swipe the card when I pick up. For Avis preferred they swipe the card at the exit booth.
In retrospect, I should have not stored the card with Avis, but I can't fix that now. I have not entered the new card into my profile.
I think this is one of the most important take-aways. I rarely save my credit card in a profile for this reason, I don't want there to be an automatic charge that I did not initiate. I do have my Amazon rewards visa saved as my default card on Amazon, but other than that, I intentionally do not save my credit card information on any site when I am making a payment. You have to be very careful though, often there is a box that is already checked by default that says "Save this card" or some similar language and you have to proactively uncheck the box.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 am

onourway wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:30 am
@tibbitts - if proving your physical location is still of any value, if you have a cell phone those records would be able to prove your whereabouts.
I don't understand, how would a cell phone record prove your location? It shows phone numbers, but any phone number can be called from or received in any location nationwide, not to mention worldwide.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:04 pm

tibbitts wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:58 am
To clarify the contact situation:

...
Please keep us informed how the case proceeds and eventually gets resolved. I don't have any comments beyond of what others have suggested. I have several Chase cards and will keep them for excellent travel rewards. But your case has taught me that charge-back is not a cure-all, even in such a clear situations as yours.

Good luck,
Victoria
Last edited by VictoriaF on Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by lstone19 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:05 pm

MnD wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:58 am
The only interesting thing is that Visa took action on an authorization (cancelling the card) ahead of the charge posting. I've called a couple of times over the years on seemingly bad authorizations and was told both times by the CC issuer that they wouldn't take any action until the charge actually posted.
I don't find that interesting at all. If the card number has been compromised, they want to get it shut down ASAP. There is a big difference between wanting to dispute a known charge because of an issue you have with the merchant and wanting to deal with an unknown charge. I've even been contacted pro-actively by a card issuer regarding a suspicious authorization.

From my experience, a dispute of a known charge requires the finalized charge. But unknown charges get the card shut down immediately although they when wait for everything to settle before they reverse the fraudulent charges (but from my most recent experience, it only took one phone call on my part - it just then all played out over the next week including them sending me a form to sign verifying the charges I was claiming weren't me).

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Kennedy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:18 pm

When you rent a car, don't you have to electronically sign your name on one of those signing pads? Also, don't they have to input your driver license number?

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by Kennedy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:22 pm

ash000000 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:14 am
I've also had a bad experience with Chase. During one of my stays at Hilton, I was charged about $150 for two international phone calls. We were not in hotel at the time of the calls but Hotel manager refused to take away the charges. Chase initially took the charge away but couple of months later reinstated the charges stating that hotel has send them a copy of their phone records. I had no way to prove that we were not in the room at the time of supposed call. The representative from Chase was polite but not any helpful.
Wow! Sounds like a home-sick hotel maid was busy making phone calls while she was making the bed. I would have risen holy hell if that happened to me. The hotel could have checked to see which hotel worker had swiped their card and was in your room at the time the calls were made.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by student » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:22 pm

mptfan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 am
onourway wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:30 am
@tibbitts - if proving your physical location is still of any value, if you have a cell phone those records would be able to prove your whereabouts.
I don't understand, how would a cell phone record prove your location? It shows phone numbers, but any phone number can be called from or received in any location nationwide, not to mention worldwide.
The cell phone record per se from one's account does not show the location but I believe the cell phone company has record on which cell tower the phone was using for a call.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by cherijoh » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:31 pm

Raybo wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:45 pm
Does Avis have video cameras in the rental locations or the car pick-up? If so, you could ask to see the video. Maybe that would convince Chase.

Frankly, I'd cancel the Chase card and find another bank.
Yeah, I have a Chase card which I'm keeping active by having my gym membership charged each month - it is my oldest surviving card. If this is the kind of customer service you get these days from Chase I'm glad I'm no longer using this as my primary card.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by cherijoh » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:40 pm

Kennedy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:18 pm
When you rent a car, don't you have to electronically sign your name on one of those signing pads? Also, don't they have to input your driver license number?
I have always had to produce my driver's license and the credit card I am using when I rent a car.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by cherijoh » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:40 pm

Kennedy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:18 pm
When you rent a car, don't you have to electronically sign your name on one of those signing pads? Also, don't they have to input your driver license number?
I have always had to produce my driver's license and the credit card I am using when I rent a car.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by cherijoh » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:40 pm

Kennedy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:18 pm
When you rent a car, don't you have to electronically sign your name on one of those signing pads? Also, don't they have to input your driver license number?
I have always had to produce my driver's license and the credit card I am using when I rent a car.

NMBob
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by NMBob » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:50 pm

1) file a police report that you sign to indicate you will likely be willing to make same statements under oath etc
2) Did you talk to anyone or see anyone in those 3 days. If so, pick several and have them sign a statement attesting to your physical location
3) Request in writing Avis send you all video off their security cameras for the day of the rental checkout and checkin (likely not getting it but this is for the people in bullet 6 to notice and consider) Perhaps add on request they submit the car to local police for finger print collection. (won't be done)
4) Tell them you hope they have provided a copy to law enforcement to help them identify the person committing fraud. Also, since you know you are not in the videos, you have not yet hired an attorney, but hope they will not cause you to consider suing them for harassment.
x?) somewhat optional - Print out a credit report that I assume would list all your credit accounts and your checking/debit card account and then each corresponding statement to show no spending on airlines or food etc before or during the time in that state.

use the above to then
4) Do Pound them on their facebook page, yelp and whatever google brings up as their review star system. Avis national PR reps will then see it on their facebook and may step in. If the credit card company hoses you , post on their page also.
5) File a complaint with the BBB
6) Most importantly, include 1-4 when you file a complaint with the state attorney generals office consumer complaints office in your state and the state of the rental center, who will only help you if you have not yet filed a law suit. State AG Websites have the download forms in most states. List the credit card company also if they are insisting you pay the charge.

then wait 90 days and it will be "resolved" , amazingly just the day before they received the AG office inquiry lol, in a letter Avis sends back to the AG office that gets forwarded by them to you.....

edit:

When you get tired of the BS, do some of the things I said. Someone said you need a higher visibility rep to fix it. Cool, try facebook. I am 3 for 3 at the AGs office and on the first one, with a horrible double billing , wrong item vender tied to my horrible sears masterdard POS liars who said I could return the items and then denied that after I did and refused to let me speak to anyone besides the lowest phone rep. I only wish I had filed with the AG 4 phone calls or more earlier.

If two business just can't straighten out your stuff after a reasonable effort by you, you do not have to drive yourself down the road of excuses to hell and repeatedly frustrate yourself. Perhaps since you are posting for ideas, indicates you are there. If you didn't get the higher visibility from facebook , send it to the AG. It will save you headaches.

The earlier the better , is my recommendation when even thinking about filing. You can always send a letter or email saying resolved and disregard if the event of good things. I guess I don't have a history of running into good things lol. Wish you the best.
Last edited by NMBob on Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by OnTrack » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:09 pm

cherijoh wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:40 pm
Kennedy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:18 pm
When you rent a car, don't you have to electronically sign your name on one of those signing pads? Also, don't they have to input your driver license number?
I have always had to produce my driver's license and the credit card I am using when I rent a car.
With Avis Preferred, you can generally go directly from the airport bus to the car without having to go to the desk. Often, they have a board with customer's name and associated parking slot number posted. No need to sign a pad. This can save a lot of time. If the credit card number is not stored with the account, then it would be necessary to go to the desk which kind of defeats the purpose of the program. They do check the driver's license when exiting the rental lot.

I also agree that the correct thing to do was to call Chase immediately to make sure additional unauthorized charges are not made. At the time, it was not known whether the card number had been compromised. This protects both the customer and the bank.
Last edited by OnTrack on Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mptfan
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:12 pm

student wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:22 pm
mptfan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 am
onourway wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:30 am
@tibbitts - if proving your physical location is still of any value, if you have a cell phone those records would be able to prove your whereabouts.
I don't understand, how would a cell phone record prove your location? It shows phone numbers, but any phone number can be called from or received in any location nationwide, not to mention worldwide.
The cell phone record per se from one's account does not show the location but I believe the cell phone company has record on which cell tower the phone was using for a call.
What is the basis of your belief? And even if that were true, that would no doubt require some investigation and work on the part of the phone company to track that information down, do you really think they would do that? And even if they did, that would only prove that *someone* called from that particular number from a particular cell tower, not necessarily the OP.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:17 pm

NMBob wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:50 pm
4) Tell them you hope they have provided a copy to law enforcement to help them identify the person committing fraud. Also, since you know you are not in the videos, you have not yet hired an attorney, but hope they will not cause you to consider suing them for harassment.
Lol, harassment? How so? You can't just sue someone for "harassment" because they made a billing mistake.
:oops:

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by NMBob » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:21 pm

it's not a "billing" a mistake to ask and demand from him after He has told them he has not rented the car. There are laws protecting consumers from some aspects of debt collection. A crime of fraud has been committed. He told them. The police report puts it in writing. Of course he will not file or would win, but they need to be told they have crossed the line in attempting to repeatedly collect a fraudulent debt o which they have been informed. And, they may be breaking a law in some states. And stating you feel harassed on a company's facebook page...makes them look bad and expresses the consumers utter frustration of what they are doing and how wrong it is.
Last edited by NMBob on Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mptfan
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by mptfan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:30 pm

NMBob wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:21 pm
it's not a "billing" a mistake to ask and demand from him after He has told them he has not rented the car. There are laws protecting consumers from some aspects of debt collection. A crime of fraud has been committed. He told them. The police report puts it in writing. Of course he will not file or would win, but they need to be told they have crossed the line in attempting to repeatedly collect a fraudulent debt o which they have been informed. And, they may be breaking a law in some states.
My understanding is that the rental car company was paid by the credit card company, so they have not been repeatedly attempting to collect a fraudulent debt, they have already been paid. In any event, the debt collection laws generally apply to debt collectors and not to the merchant to whom the debt is owed.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by NMBob » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:33 pm

It doesn't matter, I even stated it would not happen, so obviously , I guess not obviously, It is mainly to emphasize the point that you would be willing to swear in court that this is not your debt, and not that that is what is going to happen. You want them and the AG's office to believe you and do what is right to fix it? Convince them you are telling the truth.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by galawdawg » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:39 pm

No offense, a few of the suggestions I've read, IMHO, may be a little overboard. :wink: :o

To the OP: did the transaction ever appear on your Chase statement and if so, did you ever dispute in writing? If not, the FCBA (Fair Credit Billing Act) will apply once you are billed for the transaction and you dispute in writing. To invoke those protections, you must dispute the charge in writing and send the notice to the billing inquiry address of the issuer (Chase) so that they receive it within sixty (60) days of the date of the statement where the disputed transaction occurs.

Following the process set forth by the FCBA ensures that Chase will follow the procedures required by statute, otherwise, they will be prohibited from collecting the entire amount in dispute and any associated interest or fees (up to $50). While your proactive measure of contacting Chase upon learning of the unauthorized authorization was wise to prevent future fraud, I'd recommend you follow-up with the procedures outlined in the FCBA if Avis and/or Chase don't otherwise resolve the issue in your favor prior to your receipt of the statement billing that transaction. IANYL.

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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by student » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:43 pm

mptfan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:12 pm
student wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:22 pm
mptfan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 am
onourway wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:30 am
@tibbitts - if proving your physical location is still of any value, if you have a cell phone those records would be able to prove your whereabouts.
I don't understand, how would a cell phone record prove your location? It shows phone numbers, but any phone number can be called from or received in any location nationwide, not to mention worldwide.
The cell phone record per se from one's account does not show the location but I believe the cell phone company has record on which cell tower the phone was using for a call.
What is the basis of your belief? And even if that were true, that would no doubt require some investigation and work on the part of the phone company to track that information down, do you really think they would do that? And even if they did, that would only prove that *someone* called from that particular number from a particular cell tower, not necessarily the OP.
https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/App ... er0515.pdf In particular
"Using cell towers to detect location is not as accurate as GPS. Locating a mobile phone based on a single cell tower can place the mobile phone in a broad area, but it cannot pinpoint it. As the phone connects to more towers, the accuracy improves. By using cell tower triangulation (3 towers), it is possible to determine a phone location to within an area of about 3/4 square mile. In densely populated urban areas, the cell towers are close together, and a much closer estimation of phone location can be made than in a rural area, where the towers are far apart."

Here is a supreme court decision regarding law enforcement using historical location data. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1JI1WT

You original question only addresses the technology (cell phone record), and I provided an answer to it. Regarding your point that this only proves that *someone* called from that particular number from a particular cell tower, not necessarily the OP. OP can ask the other party of this phone call to give an affidavit or appear as a witness.

michaeljc70
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Re: Chase credit card dispute - denied

Post by michaeljc70 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:31 pm

NMBob wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:21 pm
it's not a "billing" a mistake to ask and demand from him after He has told them he has not rented the car. There are laws protecting consumers from some aspects of debt collection. A crime of fraud has been committed. He told them. The police report puts it in writing. Of course he will not file or would win, but they need to be told they have crossed the line in attempting to repeatedly collect a fraudulent debt o which they have been informed. And, they may be breaking a law in some states. And stating you feel harassed on a company's facebook page...makes them look bad and expresses the consumers utter frustration of what they are doing and how wrong it is.
What was the fraud? it was a mistake! That is not the same as fraud which requires intent to deceive. No crime was committed.

No one is going to court over this! Seriously? It will get resolved by Avis. No one is going to need cell phone records!

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