Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

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Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:03 pm

I have an 80 something grandparent with dementia who needs care 24/7, which is costing a bit more than the monthly income.

Due to this, one of my parents is suggesting that I purchase long term care insurance (currently in my upper 30s and single). Is this something I should consider?

Silk McCue
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:08 pm

Maybe someday but purchasing LTCi in your 30s would be outside of the norms. Some people purchase in their late 40's and early 50's but I believe most are doing so closer to 60.

Cheers

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:11 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:08 pm
Maybe someday but purchasing LTCi in your 30s would be outside of the norms. Some people purchase in their late 40's and early 50's but I believe most are doing so closer to 60.

Cheers
True, you don't hear too many 30 somethings say they are buying into one of these plans. From the research I've done, the premiums are reasonable if purchased when younger and and then can skyrocket down the line. If you miss some payments, you can get canceled and lose whatever you have paid into it.

02nz
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by 02nz » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:14 pm

Do you have access to an HSA through a high-deductible health plan? I'm using one, in part as a way to save for LTC, whether actual expenses or insurance. I am at a similar age but do not plan to purchase LTC insurance any time soon, given the many shifts and uncertainties in the marketplace.

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:17 pm

02nz wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:14 pm
Do you have access to an HSA through a high-deductible health plan? I'm using one, in part as a way to save for LTC, whether actual expenses or insurance. I am at a similar age but do not plan to purchase LTC insurance any time soon, given the many shifts and uncertainties in the marketplace.
There is an HSA option at work although I have declined to participate. I will have to look into further, thanks for the suggestion.

Silk McCue
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:25 pm

CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:11 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:08 pm
Maybe someday but purchasing LTCi in your 30s would be outside of the norms. Some people purchase in their late 40's and early 50's but I believe most are doing so closer to 60.

Cheers
True, you don't hear too many 30 somethings say they are buying into one of these plans. From the research I've done, the premiums are reasonable if purchased when younger and and then can skyrocket down the line. If you miss some payments, you can get canceled and lose whatever you have paid into it.
You've heard horror stories. Changes in recent years have greatly restricted the ability for insurance companies to raise rates sold today for private issue policies (not 10+ years ago) and if they do it must be approved and cannot include any additional profit for the insurance company. As with any insurance product, if you don't pay your premium your policy can be cancelled. These are not cash value accounts, they are insurance.

Cheers

02nz
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by 02nz » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:39 pm

CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:17 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:14 pm
Do you have access to an HSA through a high-deductible health plan? I'm using one, in part as a way to save for LTC, whether actual expenses or insurance. I am at a similar age but do not plan to purchase LTC insurance any time soon, given the many shifts and uncertainties in the marketplace.
There is an HSA option at work although I have declined to participate. I will have to look into further, thanks for the suggestion.
Very welcome. Naturally you should make sure the other aspects of the HDHP work for you, but if so the HSA has some big benefits you shouldn't pass up:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Health_savings_account

adamthesmythe
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by adamthesmythe » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:12 pm

> currently in my upper 30s

Too much can change. Wait 20 years or so and then revisit the question.

UNLESS you happen to work for the government and have a LTCI plan as a benefit...

Iorek
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Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:38 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Iorek » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:54 am

adamthesmythe wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:12 pm
> currently in my upper 30s

Too much can change. Wait 20 years or so and then revisit the question.

UNLESS you happen to work for the government and have a LTCI plan as a benefit...
?? The fed LTCI plan is IIRC worse than what people can get on their own

WoW2012
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by WoW2012 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:57 pm

CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:03 pm
I have an 80 something grandparent with dementia who needs care 24/7, which is costing a bit more than the monthly income.

Due to this, one of my parents is suggesting that I purchase long term care insurance (currently in my upper 30s and single). Is this something I should consider?
Most people in their 30's have much higher financial priorities than long-term care insurance. If you're in your 30's do NOT even think about getting LTC insurance unless you've already taken care of the following:

1) Excellent medical insurance.
2) If you have a HSA then max out the contribution every year.
3) Long-term DISABILITY insurance to replace 2/3's of your income if you're no longer able to work.
4) If you have dependents, then own enough life insurance to replace your income if you die prematurely.
5) All high interest debt paid off.
6) A year's worth of living expenses in a safe, liquid account.
7) Max out your retirement account contributions every year.

After you've taken care of all of these issues then consider long-term care insurance. And even if you do buy an LTCi policy in your 30's, just buy a starter policy--something simple and cheap that has a guaranteed increase option where you can increase your coverage in the future even if you've developed health problems.

WoW2012
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by WoW2012 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:01 pm

Iorek wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:54 am
adamthesmythe wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:12 pm
> currently in my upper 30s

Too much can change. Wait 20 years or so and then revisit the question.

UNLESS you happen to work for the government and have a LTCI plan as a benefit...
?? The fed LTCI plan is IIRC worse than what people can get on their own

The group policy offered to federal employees is not bad for many people.
For single women, it's a much better value than most other policies, because the federal plan charges men and women the same rates and it charges a single person the same rate as a married person.
For someone with average health the federal group plan may be better than buying a policy on their own because the federal plan charges everyone the same rate, regardless of health.

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:56 pm

In asking whether something is worth it, one good aspect to consider is what's the alternative.

I have a group long-term care insurance policy begun about ten years ago. My purpose in carrying it is to avoid a nursing home. Medicaid here generally covers nursing homes but not measures short of them. For me, that's the alternative, and for me my premium is worth it.

You're not buying ten years ago, and I don't know what your alternatives are.

PJW

dknightd
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by dknightd » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:03 pm

WoW2012 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:57 pm
CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:03 pm
I have an 80 something grandparent with dementia who needs care 24/7, which is costing a bit more than the monthly income.

Due to this, one of my parents is suggesting that I purchase long term care insurance (currently in my upper 30s and single). Is this something I should consider?
Most people in their 30's have much higher financial priorities than long-term care insurance. If you're in your 30's do NOT even think about getting LTC insurance unless you've already taken care of the following:

1) Excellent medical insurance.
2) If you have a HSA then max out the contribution every year.
3) Long-term DISABILITY insurance to replace 2/3's of your income if you're no longer able to work.
4) If you have dependents, then own enough life insurance to replace your income if you die prematurely.
5) All high interest debt paid off.
6) A year's worth of living expenses in a safe, liquid account.
7) Max out your retirement account contributions every year.

After you've taken care of all of these issues then consider long-term care insurance. And even if you do buy an LTCi policy in your 30's, just buy a starter policy--something simple and cheap that has a guaranteed increase option where you can increase your coverage in the future even if you've developed health problems.
This seems like good advice. Maybe you should ask, do your parents have long term care insurance? They might need it before you do . . .

khh
Posts: 252
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:31 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by khh » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:16 pm

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I thought it might be helpful =>

Medicare Home Healthcare Long Term Care – Home Healthcare For Long Term Patients

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytjwYK8-KAs

dknightd
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by dknightd » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:21 pm

khh wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:16 pm
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I thought it might be helpful =>

Medicare Home Healthcare Long Term Care – Home Healthcare For Long Term Patients

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytjwYK8-KAs
yep, I'm buying whatever this guy is selling ;)

JoeRetire
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by JoeRetire » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:40 pm

CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:03 pm
Due to this, one of my parents is suggesting that I purchase long term care insurance (currently in my upper 30s and single). Is this something I should consider?
Yes. But not for another 20 years or so.

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:42 am

Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:25 pm
CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:11 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:08 pm
Maybe someday but purchasing LTCi in your 30s would be outside of the norms. Some people purchase in their late 40's and early 50's but I believe most are doing so closer to 60.

Cheers
True, you don't hear too many 30 somethings say they are buying into one of these plans. From the research I've done, the premiums are reasonable if purchased when younger and and then can skyrocket down the line. If you miss some payments, you can get canceled and lose whatever you have paid into it.
You've heard horror stories. Changes in recent years have greatly restricted the ability for insurance companies to raise rates sold today for private issue policies (not 10+ years ago) and if they do it must be approved and cannot include any additional profit for the insurance company. As with any insurance product, if you don't pay your premium your policy can be cancelled. These are not cash value accounts, they are insurance.

Cheers
Ok, thanks for the info

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:43 am

02nz wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:39 pm
CobraKai wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:17 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:14 pm
Do you have access to an HSA through a high-deductible health plan? I'm using one, in part as a way to save for LTC, whether actual expenses or insurance. I am at a similar age but do not plan to purchase LTC insurance any time soon, given the many shifts and uncertainties in the marketplace.
There is an HSA option at work although I have declined to participate. I will have to look into further, thanks for the suggestion.
Very welcome. Naturally you should make sure the other aspects of the HDHP work for you, but if so the HSA has some big benefits you shouldn't pass up:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Health_savings_account
I will have to wait until the next enrollment period but will keep that in mind. Thanks again!

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:43 am

adamthesmythe wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:12 pm
> currently in my upper 30s

Too much can change. Wait 20 years or so and then revisit the question.

UNLESS you happen to work for the government and have a LTCI plan as a benefit...

I do not.

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:45 am

WoW2012 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:57 pm

Most people in their 30's have much higher financial priorities than long-term care insurance. If you're in your 30's do NOT even think about getting LTC insurance unless you've already taken care of the following:

1) Excellent medical insurance.
2) If you have a HSA then max out the contribution every year.
3) Long-term DISABILITY insurance to replace 2/3's of your income if you're no longer able to work.
4) If you have dependents, then own enough life insurance to replace your income if you die prematurely.
5) All high interest debt paid off.
6) A year's worth of living expenses in a safe, liquid account.
7) Max out your retirement account contributions every year.

After you've taken care of all of these issues then consider long-term care insurance. And even if you do buy an LTCi policy in your 30's, just buy a starter policy--something simple and cheap that has a guaranteed increase option where you can increase your coverage in the future even if you've developed health problems.
Does high interest debt include mortgage @4.5% or car loan @ 3%?
Does maxing out retirement include the full 18k (or whatever the max amount is now) for the 401? I currently only contribute to the match and have my own IRA.

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:47 am

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:56 pm
My purpose in carrying it is to avoid a nursing home. Medicaid here generally covers nursing homes but not measures short of them.
That is true and why I am considering this to begin with.

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:48 am

dknightd wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:03 pm
This seems like good advice. Maybe you should ask, do your parents have long term care insurance? They might need it before you do . . .
No although parent is recommending that I get it.

TheDDC
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:11 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by TheDDC » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:48 am

I doubt the millennial generation (myself included) will be interested in buying into LTCi. I'd be surprised if such a concept (racket) is still around in 30 years.

-TheDDC

Topic Author
CobraKai
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon May 07, 2018 10:17 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CobraKai » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:49 am

khh wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:16 pm
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I thought it might be helpful =>

Medicare Home Healthcare Long Term Care – Home Healthcare For Long Term Patients

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytjwYK8-KAs

Thanks for the link

averagedude
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by averagedude » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:07 pm

If im 30 years old, i wouldn't consider purchasing now. Being single, i wouldnt consider purchasing later due to the following reasons.
1. There is nobody who may become impoverished due to my long term care expenses.
2. After all of my assets are gone, medicaid will pay for it.
3. Purchasing long term care insurance is expensive, and could delay retirement by 10 years or more.
4. Self insuring would give me extra money to spend, if i don't need long term care.
5. Being single and assuming no children, i wouldn't want to make sacrifices in my life, just to leave money to extended family members.
6. If i am going to live the rest of my life in a long term care facility, i know my life is going to suck anyways, so the quality of care wouldn't matter to me.

Silk McCue
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:08 pm

TheDDC wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:48 am
I doubt the millennial generation (myself included) will be interested in buying into LTCi. I'd be surprised if such a concept (racket) is still around in 30 years.

-TheDDC
Racket? You are sorely misinformed. You clearly don’t have a firm grasp on what it’s like to be in mental or physical decline and not be able to take care of yourself or experiencing the same situation for a spouse and having no idea on how to pay for it without forgoing paying bills.

You paint millennials in a very poor light. Everyone won’t end up uber rich and somehow rise above the massive expense of in home care where most people will most always choose in-home care over a nursing home.

Cheers

Broken Man 1999
Posts: 1860
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:48 pm

MegaCorp offered group LTD and LTC policies from MetLife.

LTD replaced a portion of my income from 1999-2018. It allowed my family to continue the standard of living we enjoyed before I was disabled.

LTC provided the funds for my healthcare aides for a little over 10 years. Because I had aides helping me in the morning every day, my wife was able to continue working at MegaCorp, and continued stuffing her 401k plan for retirement. Even though I had income, it wasn't earned income and my access to adding to my 401k plan was gone.

My policy paid out $275,000.

When my wife was telling me about her contacts with MegaCorp's HR department after my accident, I found out that though I had asked the company to cancel my LTC policy, it turned out due to sheer luck, or incompetence in HR, my policy was still in force. And, from my hospital bed I was able to increase it 10% from $250,000 to $275,000 when an upgrade was offered, as I wasn't drawing it.

One data point only, LTC was worth it for me. YMMV.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

Silk McCue
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:47 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:48 pm
Broken Man 1999
Always saw your name here and wondered why the choice. Very sorry for your troubles and so glad that you had LTD and LTC.

Take care.

Cheers

Broken Man 1999
Posts: 1860
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:53 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:47 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:48 pm
Broken Man 1999
Always saw your name here and wondered why the choice. Very sorry for your troubles and so glad that you had LTD and LTC.

Take care.

Cheers
Thank you!

I consider myself one of the most fortunate or blessed (depends on your belief system) individuals alive.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

JoeRetire
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by JoeRetire » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:20 pm

averagedude wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:07 pm
Purchasing long term care insurance is expensive, and could delay retirement by 10 years or more.
If the cost of long term care insurance would delay your retirement by 10 years or more, you are doing something drastically wrong. It might make sense to figure that out soon.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Silk McCue
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Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:21 pm

Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:53 pm
Thank you!

I consider myself one of the most fortunate or blessed (depends on your belief system) individuals alive.

Broken Man 1999
Very glad to know this. I am a blessed man as well.

Cheers

averagedude
Posts: 466
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by averagedude » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 pm

JoeRetire wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:20 pm
averagedude wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:07 pm
Purchasing long term care insurance is expensive, and could delay retirement by 10 years or more.
If the cost of long term care insurance would delay your retirement by 10 years or more, you are doing something drastically wrong. It might make sense to figure that out soon.
It is possible. Lets say you are 52 years old with 25 years expenses and could retire, but decide to delay retirement because of your new annual expense of $3000 a year which means you are now short $75000 from retiring using the 4% SWR. Then you figure you need to work a couple more years to pay for this annual expense and during that time a bear market happens like in 2000, and it takes you years to get to 25 times your expenses. This is a far fetched scenario, but the fact is it is an annual expense and you do need a larger nest egg due to your larger annual expense, thus meaning working longer to pay for it.

TheDDC
Posts: 281
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by TheDDC » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:39 pm

Silk McCue wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:08 pm
TheDDC wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:48 am
I doubt the millennial generation (myself included) will be interested in buying into LTCi. I'd be surprised if such a concept (racket) is still around in 30 years.

-TheDDC
Racket? You are sorely misinformed. You clearly don’t have a firm grasp on what it’s like to be in mental or physical decline and not be able to take care of yourself or experiencing the same situation for a spouse and having no idea on how to pay for it without forgoing paying bills.

You paint millennials in a very poor light. Everyone won’t end up uber rich and somehow rise above the massive expense of in home care where most people will most always choose in-home care over a nursing home.

Cheers
On the contrary I painted them (us) in a good and wise light here. We don't pay for stuff like this out of pocket as it is not an expanse that is worth it at a young age. Medicare will at some point need to be used for such care.

Even Uber rich doesn't pay for a dystopian health decline as you seem to allude to. There's only so much insurance that is worth it.

-TheDDC

visualguy
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Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by visualguy » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:58 pm

averagedude wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:07 pm
If im 30 years old, i wouldn't consider purchasing now. Being single, i wouldnt consider purchasing later due to the following reasons.
1. There is nobody who may become impoverished due to my long term care expenses.
2. After all of my assets are gone, medicaid will pay for it.
3. Purchasing long term care insurance is expensive, and could delay retirement by 10 years or more.
4. Self insuring would give me extra money to spend, if i don't need long term care.
5. Being single and assuming no children, i wouldn't want to make sacrifices in my life, just to leave money to extended family members.
6. If i am going to live the rest of my life in a long term care facility, i know my life is going to suck anyways, so the quality of care wouldn't matter to me.
I don't think you know how bad it gets out there in nursing homes. Just read some of the recent news. The quality of the facility matters a lot.

If you are single with no children, it's actually a much more serious problem for you than for people with families who can take care of them for a while, and monitor what happens to them once they are in a nursing home.

Silk McCue
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:08 pm

TheDDC wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:39 pm
Silk McCue wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:08 pm
TheDDC wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:48 am
I doubt the millennial generation (myself included) will be interested in buying into LTCi. I'd be surprised if such a concept (racket) is still around in 30 years.

-TheDDC
Racket? You are sorely misinformed. You clearly don’t have a firm grasp on what it’s like to be in mental or physical decline and not be able to take care of yourself or experiencing the same situation for a spouse and having no idea on how to pay for it without forgoing paying bills.

You paint millennials in a very poor light. Everyone won’t end up uber rich and somehow rise above the massive expense of in home care where most people will most always choose in-home care over a nursing home.

Cheers
On the contrary I painted them (us) in a good and wise light here. We don't pay for stuff like this out of pocket as it is not an expanse that is worth it at a young age. Medicare will at some point need to be used for such care.

Even Uber rich doesn't pay for a dystopian health decline as you seem to allude to. There's only so much insurance that is worth it.

-TheDDC
You know not that of which you speak.

Cheers

TheDDC
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:11 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by TheDDC » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:16 pm

Sure. Like I said, looks and smells like a racket even moreso after reading your posts. And has its sales folks on the forum. Poor investment. I will advise a "sell" on LTCI. If you really would rather have a place to hang your hat during your dystopian future of declining health, prepay for a retirement community that offers services in home (or on site) if needed. Much better investment.

Good day.

-TheDDC

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aspirit
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Location: SMA.SFL

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by aspirit » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:39 pm

I DO NOT THINK ITS WORTH IT. A PAL RUNS ONE, SALARIES 70-80K. MANY MALES THERE HAVE EXPRESSED THE FEELING OF ABANDONMENT AND BEING IN A PRISON CAMP.

Of course this is the greatest generations of males as defined by selflessness :annoyed :confused own children ran away with funds in one situation ortunate for these hero’s imo THE STATE DOES NOTHING EXCEPT BUY THEM SHOES. UNREAL. I’ve notified them. \














\
Time & tides wait for no one. A man has to know his limitations. | "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" | — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild ~

Silk McCue
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Silk McCue » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:31 am

TheDDC wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:16 pm
Sure. Like I said, looks and smells like a racket even moreso after reading your posts. And has its sales folks on the forum. Poor investment. I will advise a "sell" on LTCI. If you really would rather have a place to hang your hat during your dystopian future of declining health, prepay for a retirement community that offers services in home (or on site) if needed. Much better investment.

Good day.

-TheDDC
You clearly have no real life experience with those that have needed to pay for care in their homes or in a facility and couldn't afford it. I have. Both with my MIL (she had LTCi) prior to going on Hospice and as the owner of a private duty Home Health Agency providing care to the elderly in their homes because they didn't want to go into a facility but their loved ones were being worn out by the demands of providing them with all of the care that they needed. I met with a multitude of families that needed assistance and could barely afford 3 hours of care per day (when that would have made a big difference) and those fortunate few that had any level of LTCi that would cover one or two such visits per day 3 or 4 days a week or one twelve hour shift per day or 2 12 hour shifts every day of the week.

It gets very real very quick when life takes you down a path you didn't think would befall you or your loved one.

References to a retirement community that provides for your needs called a CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community) is a great idea but the costs of such a program are beyond the reach of most mere financial mortals.

LTCi is not an investment, it is insurance. It is not a racket, it is an option that people pay for and pray that they never need. Those that believe that it is appropriate for themselves and other certain individuals does not mean that they sales people shilling for the industry.

Hoping you or a loved one never need the care covered by a LTCi and cannot afford it. It's not for everybody, but don't dismiss it due to your limited perspective and knowledge of the need and benefit.

Cheers

JoeRetire
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by JoeRetire » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:36 am

averagedude wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 pm
Lets say you are 52 years old with 25 years expenses and could retire, but decide to delay retirement because of your new annual expense of $3000 a year
If $3000/year is the difference between retiring and not retiring - you weren't financially ready to retire to begin with.

jminv
Posts: 719
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:58 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by jminv » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:41 am

It can be worth it if you end up needing the care. Otherwise, it won't be, on average which is the nature of insurance. This thread has gone off on a tangent about this but it's the same for all types of insurance, on average, you won't 'win'. That's not the reason to get insurance. There are also issues with what sort of LTC policies you can obtain. You can't obtain ones that kick in after, say, 5 years in a nursing home or assisted living on your dime and continue indefinitely which would be more useful for someone wanting cover against a lower probability event that they could not self-fund.

With LTC, people who had relatives that needed care for years are more likely to get LTC insurance. Conversely, people whose relatives have died early not needing LTC or living a long time but not needing LTC, are less likely to get it. Your own relatives are a small sample size, so when you make the decision you should look at national averages. Even so, all sorts of threads here on various subjects have the same issue where a small sample size, sometimes just of one's parents, are made when making many financial decisions (SS early or not, for example). Perhaps consider the risk of becoming disabled early on, rather than framing LTC solely as something the elderly experience, and how that would affect your relationships if you relied on your spouse for care since you were uninsured. Also, keep in mind that if you have LTC insurance you are more likely to use it. This can be a good thing because it can improve one's quality of life and allow them to stay in their home longer. Looking at my own limited sample of my extended family, it would have been beneficial to some elderly relatives. They could already afford the in home care early on or maybe some sort of assisted living but did not want to spend the money since it was 'so expensive'. Meanwhile, they've spent with abandon through their health insurance which is near 'free' and had quality of life issues. They would also not have relied so much on their children for caregiving functions which can disrupt a child's own retirement and relationships. I've not had any extended relative end up in a nursing home so no observations there other than I wouldn't want to end up in one.

averagedude
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by averagedude » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:23 am

JoeRetire wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:36 am
averagedude wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 pm
Lets say you are 52 years old with 25 years expenses and could retire, but decide to delay retirement because of your new annual expense of $3000 a year
If $3000/year is the difference between retiring and not retiring - you weren't financially ready to retire to begin with.
For most people, yes. But if you are lower income and need an extra $30000 a year in expenses, you need a $750000 nest egg figuring a 4% SWR, a $3000 annual expense means you now need to have $825000 nest egg. The math for early retirement are the same for lower income people, if you have read up on the FIRE movement. Lower income people can retire early also if they have a huge savings rate. A bear market during this time, could make it take a while for a lower income person to build up their portfolio to $825000.

sophie1
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:58 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by sophie1 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:42 am

This is an important question and I hope people will post more serious responses...

If I could buy LTC insurance at $3,000/year I'd have gotten it. The policies I was looking at cost over $600/month (I'm in mid 50s). When I looked at the fine print, I saw that there was a total maximum benefit that would not quite be enough to pay for a high quality nursing home in this area for two years. On the other hand, if I saved that premium and got a 7% return for 20 years, I would end up with more than the maximum coverage amount. My mother had independently looked into long term care insurance a few years earlier, and came to the same conclusion. We managed just fine with my father, who needed full in-home care for 3 years at a cost of ~$80-90K/year including aides, equipment & supplies. Fortunately, my parents' income covered that expense, and the tax writeoff was a big help (note you would lose that benefit by paying via insurance).

The sad fact is that unless you're lucky enough to drop dead of a heart attack or brain hemorrhage while still fully functional, you will need long term care for a length of time that averages 2-3 years, but could be much longer. Thus, LTC insurance is not really insurance, because the costs you are trying to insure are not rare. Instead, you are prepaying for expected expenses at a very high overhead, since the company selling you the insurance must make money.

If there is any point to LTC at all, it's for a married couple with limited savings & income, to protect the non-disabled spouse. For a single financially competent person, I don't see the point.

marcopolo
Posts: 1603
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:22 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by marcopolo » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:43 am

jminv wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:41 am
You can't obtain ones that kick in after, say, 5 years in a nursing home or assisted living on your dime and continue indefinitely which would be more useful for someone wanting cover against a lower probability event that they could not self-fund.
In my mind this is the crux of the problem. The policies end up being very expensive because they cover close to from day 1. If you look at the statistics, most people who need LTC, only need it for relatively short periods of time. But, what you hear from people pushing the policies is the stories of long drawn out stays. Which is odd, since most policies would not cover those cases anyway. What I would be very interested in is a policy with something like 5 year deductible (i can easily cover that), but protection against the rare long stays. Such a policy should be much more affordable because very few people would use the benefits, like how insurance is supposed to work. Instead what the industry offers us is essentially a pre-paid scheme with limited benefits.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

JoeRetire
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:44 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by JoeRetire » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:29 pm

averagedude wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:23 am
For most people, yes. But if you are lower income and need an extra $30000 a year in expenses, you need a $750000 nest egg figuring a 4% SWR, a $3000 annual expense means you now need to have $825000 nest egg. The math for early retirement are the same for lower income people, if you have read up on the FIRE movement. Lower income people can retire early also if they have a huge savings rate. A bear market during this time, could make it take a while for a lower income person to build up their portfolio to $825000.
If you are cutting it that close, you aren't ready to retire.

Limoncello402
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:58 pm

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Limoncello402 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:39 pm

As a single, financially competent person, I am very happy that I have a LTC policy. Not only will it cover a good quality nursing home if I need it someday, but it will also cover home care help. Since I have no one to care for me -- no family -- such insurance is well worth it for me.
Lots of people want to make blanket statements about LTC, but it really comes down to a personal decision.
My policy is about $3600/year.

WoW2012
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:17 am

sophie1 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:42 am
This is an important question and I hope people will post more serious responses...

If I could buy LTC insurance at $3,000/year I'd have gotten it. The policies I was looking at cost over $600/month (I'm in mid 50s). When I looked at the fine print, I saw that there was a total maximum benefit that would not quite be enough to pay for a high quality nursing home in this area for two years. On the other hand, if I saved that premium and got a 7% return for 20 years, I would end up with more than the maximum coverage amount. My mother had independently looked into long term care insurance a few years earlier, and came to the same conclusion. We managed just fine with my father, who needed full in-home care for 3 years at a cost of ~$80-90K/year including aides, equipment & supplies. Fortunately, my parents' income covered that expense, and the tax writeoff was a big help (note you would lose that benefit by paying via insurance).

The sad fact is that unless you're lucky enough to drop dead of a heart attack or brain hemorrhage while still fully functional, you will need long term care for a length of time that averages 2-3 years, but could be much longer. Thus, LTC insurance is not really insurance, because the costs you are trying to insure are not rare. Instead, you are prepaying for expected expenses at a very high overhead, since the company selling you the insurance must make money.

If there is any point to LTC at all, it's for a married couple with limited savings & income, to protect the non-disabled spouse. For a single financially competent person, I don't see the point.

If you're in your mid-fifties and you were being quoted $600 per month for such a limited policy, you were talking to the WRONG agent. Find an LTCi specialist. The average LTCi premium is a little over $200 per month for someone in their mid-fifties.

WoW2012
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:20 am

marcopolo wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:43 am
jminv wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:41 am
You can't obtain ones that kick in after, say, 5 years in a nursing home or assisted living on your dime and continue indefinitely which would be more useful for someone wanting cover against a lower probability event that they could not self-fund.
In my mind this is the crux of the problem. The policies end up being very expensive because they cover close to from day 1. If you look at the statistics, most people who need LTC, only need it for relatively short periods of time. But, what you hear from people pushing the policies is the stories of long drawn out stays. Which is odd, since most policies would not cover those cases anyway. What I would be very interested in is a policy with something like 5 year deductible (i can easily cover that), but protection against the rare long stays. Such a policy should be much more affordable because very few people would use the benefits, like how insurance is supposed to work. Instead what the industry offers us is essentially a pre-paid scheme with limited benefits.

Flesh out your plan for self-funding because there will never be a long-term care policy with a 5-year deductible.

WoW2012
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:28 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by WoW2012 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:21 am

marcopolo wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:43 am
jminv wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:41 am
You can't obtain ones that kick in after, say, 5 years in a nursing home or assisted living on your dime and continue indefinitely which would be more useful for someone wanting cover against a lower probability event that they could not self-fund.
In my mind this is the crux of the problem. The policies end up being very expensive because they cover close to from day 1. If you look at the statistics, most people who need LTC, only need it for relatively short periods of time. But, what you hear from people pushing the policies is the stories of long drawn out stays. Which is odd, since most policies would not cover those cases anyway. What I would be very interested in is a policy with something like 5 year deductible (i can easily cover that), but protection against the rare long stays. Such a policy should be much more affordable because very few people would use the benefits, like how insurance is supposed to work. Instead what the industry offers us is essentially a pre-paid scheme with limited benefits.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think it would cost for you to self-fund 5 years of long-term care? And, which assets would you liquidate first?

CurlyDave
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by CurlyDave » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:24 am

adamthesmythe wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:12 pm
...UNLESS you happen to work for the government and have a LTCI plan as a benefit...
Even then LTCI can be a bad deal.

DW worked for the State of CA, and we bought a plan through CalPERS. The literature said that our premium would never increase, but a few years later it did start to increase. Some law must have changed.

The long and the short of it was that the cost kept going up and the value to us kept declining, so we dropped the insurance. Would have been far better off to just invest the money, even if it had to be in a taxable account.

User avatar
Sandtrap
Posts: 5906
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Location: Hawaii😀 Northern AZ.😳 Retired.

Re: Is Long Term Care Insurance worth it?

Post by Sandtrap » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:27 am

Silk McCue wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:47 pm
Broken Man 1999 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:48 pm
Broken Man 1999
Always saw your name here and wondered why the choice. Very sorry for your troubles and so glad that you had LTD and LTC.

Take care.

Cheers
+1
Thinking seriously about LTC Insurance given a few rough patches.
Gosh. . . . time is passing.
j

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