Do you ever feel overpaid?

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investingdad
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Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by investingdad » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:45 am

Not a typical question, do you think your overpaid for what you do?

But there are times I've felt as such. I recently looked up salary statistics and per the math, I'm not overpaid at all. I'm a chemical engineer with a little over 20 years experience and compensation was over 130k this year.

But apparently that's just slightly over the national US average for a late career chem e.

It's funny, I partly decided on chem engineering for solid salary potential later on. Now that I'm earning it, it doesn't feel completely justified. I'm quite grateful to be in this position, and I know a lot of BHs earn a lot more than I do. But my role doesn't seem terribly difficult for the level of compensation.

I hope my manager doesn't read this.

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RickBoglehead
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by RickBoglehead » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:47 am

I've never felt overpaid. When I was in my highest paying job, back some years ago, I was making a very good living, and felt underpaid.

I've always felt that if you can measure the impact you have on the bottom line of the company, you should be rewarded proportionally. In that position, my contributions, which I was rewarded for, were much more significant than others. While I was paid more, it wasn't that much more.

But I've never felt overpaid.
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Halicar » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:59 am

Based on my job title and what someone in my position should be doing, I'm paid fairly. Based on what I actually do, I'm ridiculously overpaid. I spend maybe 5% of my time working and 95% trying to make it look like I'm working, which is in fact far more difficult and stressful than actually working.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by livesoft » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:02 am

Way back when, I got a new job. I felt overpaid because I was hired mostly for who I knew. Yep, I could say, "I know them" and got paid for knowing them and taking them to lunch and dinner. It was totally amazing because there was no work whatsoever involved --- only good meals and great schmoozing discussions. It was then that I learned what it was like to be a lobbyist.
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whodidntante
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by whodidntante » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:05 am

All the time. I come from humble beginnings and have a serious case of imposter syndrome.

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Summit111
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Summit111 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:07 am

Before I retired, not so my much...

Following retirement, I was offered consulting projects at 2.5% of my “Pre Retirement” salary...at my former company!

Should have entertained other opportunities when I was working full time!

Summit
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samsdad
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by samsdad » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:10 am

No. Do I feel that others are overpaid? Yeah. I try not to think about it though, and count my blessings.

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dwickenh
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by dwickenh » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:12 am

Since I am paying myself now, no I don't feel I am overpaid. Before, when I saw some guy down in a ditch repairing water lines, I felt I was a little overpaid for handling customer service concerns. Sometimes, a little perspective helps you realize you have it pretty good.
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are_cynic
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by are_cynic » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:17 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:47 am
I've always felt that if you can measure the impact you have on the bottom line of the company, you should be rewarded proportionally. In that position, my contributions, which I was rewarded for, were much more significant than others. While I was paid more, it wasn't that much more.
This is the Faustian bargain of the employee. You exchange upside potential of your effort for downside protection from sporadic income. There is a risk premium for entrepreneurs. So far I’ve elected not to pursue that premium because of the commensurate risk.

That said, yes, I feel overpaid every day.
"Invert, always invert" ~Carl Jacobi

Brassman
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Brassman » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:19 am

This may be a result of the dunning-kruger effect. You overestimate other people's knowledge of your specialty, and underestimate your own knowledge compared to the general population.

Machava
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Machava » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:20 am

whodidntante wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:05 am
All the time. I come from humble beginnings and have a serious case of imposter syndrome.
This is me. I feel like my career is a house of cards that will come crashing down at anytime and I'll end up with a job that has a salary 50% lower of what I'm making.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by michaeljmroger » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:22 am

Totally. I can’t complain obviously, but honestly it takes a while to get used to it. For instance, my bonus alone is substantially larger than the average annual salary. I genuinely think most people have no idea how crazy the salaries are these days in large tech companies…

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by midareff » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:24 am

I never felt overpaid but at parts of my career I did feel I was appropriately paid when pay and benefits were combined. Then came a new Mayor and our benefits were reduced 5% and a healthcare contribution of an additional 5% was required and the number of holidays reduced. Then came the 2007/8 the recession and we took another cut .. of each as I recall. So, from appropriately paid to nearly 20% less and you start counting down for the final 5 years.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Jags4186 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:25 am

I’ve never felt overpaid. There’s no amount of money one could pay me that would make me feel overpaid.

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Davinci
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Davinci » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:28 am

Do you ever feel overpaid?
Investingdad,

Not at all, I am not a CEO, professional athlete, movie star, etc. to be overpaid for the work performed. I made an hourly pay calculation while at Megacorp as it was typical to be working 60-80 hour weeks and found out for the results and bottom-line impact of saving literally millions of dollars to the company showed me as underpaid as compared to the CEO since his salary was 550 times higher than mine and when averaged by the hour it was eye opening.

Now in perspective, when I see the salaries compared to other countries for the same work, I feel truly blessed, as they are engineers, scientists, doctors, etc. in other countries that do not make as we make in the US so I feel truly blessed about my salary but not overpaid.
The 2017 CEO-to-worker compensation ratio of 312-to-1 was far greater than the 20-to-1 ratio in 1965, and more than five times greater than the 58-to-1 ratio in 1989
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... study-2018
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sabtastic
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by sabtastic » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:31 am

Are you HR in disguise? This feels like a trap....

KlangFool
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by KlangFool » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:36 am

OP,

No.

A problem occurred. Many engineers worked on the problem for months and up to 1 year. They are stuck. Finally, it escalated to my level. I solved the problem. This recurred many times throughout my career.

I am paid to solve the problem that could not be easily solved by others. So, I am not overpaid.

KlangFool

minimalistmarc
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by minimalistmarc » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:37 am

In the UK, income between 100 - 200k is taxed very highly so net after tax income is more humbling.

I don't think I will feel overpaid unless I could bust through the 200k barrier back into more reasonable income tax rates

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HomerJ
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by HomerJ » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:41 am

sabtastic wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:31 am
Are you HR in disguise? This feels like a trap....
Announcement over the loud speakers: "Due to an incoming storm, all non-essential employees can leave early today"

HR guy with binoculars then watches the parking lot, writing down names... :)
The J stands for Jay

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Watty
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Watty » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:46 am

investingdad wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:45 am
But my role doesn't seem terribly difficult for the level of compensation.
The big question is if that is because you are good at what you do or are you doing work that someone that is two years out of college could do.

If it is the later then your job might not be all that secure.

The company could also have good reason to get the somewhat overqualified people if there is higher than average risk.

I worked as a software developer and the last few years before I retired I was mainly working in a support roll including doing software system conversions of warehouses that might have a quarter of a billion dollars of inventory. The part I mainly did was moving the data and computer inventory from one system to another once the new system was set up and ready to go live. Technically the work was not all that complex and could probably have been done by someone with five years experience but since the stakes were so high it made sense to pay someone with 30 years experience to do the conversions.

Usually the conversions went smoothly but there were one or two times when I was able to catch and fix a problem that a less experienced person would have had difficulty with and that more than paid the extra cost of having a senior person do it.
Last edited by Watty on Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Dottie57 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:47 am

I never felt overpaid, but at times I felt very grateful and surprised to make the salary I did.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by samsoes » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:49 am

Our time on this planet is finite. Each day is priceless.
No, I never feel overpaid. Each day at work is a day I'll never get back; it's another day closer to the grave.
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by nguy44 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:51 am

I enjoyed my job, much of it was like a hobby. I never felt overpaid in a bad way. At times I would feel amazed at what they were paying me, for enjoying my "hobby".

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by mptfan » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:55 am

Summit111 wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:07 am
Following retirement, I was offered consulting projects at 2.5% of my “Pre Retirement” salary...at my former company!
Wow, a 97.5% pay cut! What a deal!

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by marcopolo » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:01 am

I went back and forth on thinking this way.

I was in a senior executive level, but kept my fingers very tightly in technical aspects of our products. Most of the time I felt like I was mostly coasting, and being extremely overpaid. Mostly because the technical team was very competent.

But, every now and then, we ran into an issue, or a customer request that no one on the team was able to solve. When a significant business opportunity got turned into a revenue stream for years due to my efforts at solving the problem, all of a sudden I felt extremely underpaid.

I figure in the long run, it evened out. Employer must have felt the same way, otherwise they would not have continued to pay me at that level.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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Kenkat
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Kenkat » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:02 am

Machava wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:20 am
whodidntante wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:05 am
All the time. I come from humble beginnings and have a serious case of imposter syndrome.
This is me. I feel like my career is a house of cards that will come crashing down at anytime and I'll end up with a job that has a salary 50% lower of what I'm making.
I can identify. Must be a common feeling, reminds me of the Radiohead song “Creep”:

But I'm a creep
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doing here?
I don't belong here
I don't belong here


Some days I do feel overpaid. And other days I feel like the place would probably burn to the ground if I wasn’t there to stop it - i.e. underpaid.

I guess it all averages out.

dknightd
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by dknightd » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:07 am

I've never felt overpaid. I have felt well compensated. I also have felt under compensated.

If you do feel overpaid, what are you going to do? Ask for a pay cut?????

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Davinci
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Davinci » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:08 am

Announcement over the loud speakers: "Due to an incoming storm, all non-essential employees can leave early today"

HR guy with binoculars then watches the parking lot, writing down names... :)
LOL, this is funny but sad at the same time. Many Megacorps and other companies do things like this when is time to reduce cost and headcount, layoff or early retire those that cost a lot of money, only to hire recent college grads the following week.

It is very true about non-essential and essential, before deciding to leave Megacorp, I withstand 7 layoffs where the building and parking lot became a ghost town.I believe that was the case because I always made myself essential to the company and ensured that I was alway adding high value, impact and results. When I decided to leave on my own terms to something more stable there were multiple offers and attempts by Megacorp to stay even as layoffs were happening.

Always make yourself essential as it would be much better than those consider non-essential.

Cheers,
" Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" Leonardo Da Vinci.

Tal-
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Tal- » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:11 am

My wife has this, and it blows my mind. She is the most intelligent, and hardest working person that I know - and manages tens of millions of dollars in widgets per week. Sure, she makes good money, but she is also worth it by any internal equity, external equity, cost-to-replace, or internal value metric that you could come up with.

Coincidentally, she's a Chem E by education.
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Windylotus » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:19 am

I'm a general contractor by trade over the last seventeen years, also a full time college student in my fourth year as a management information systems major.

I did a small, 5-day contracting job over the semester Christmas break and cleared $22k when all said and done! I paid my guys handsomely and gave a nice cash bonus to each of them. I essentially made $805/hr. Was I overpaid, possibly, do I feel overpaid, not in the least bit. This was a very specialized project requiring a very high-end skill set and precise planning. The client, who is a 1%er and on Forbes list of wealthiest people (net worth $2B, I looked it up) in the US, was elated with the work and fine with the price. Do I make these kind of returns regularly? I wish.

This is not a humblebrag rather, count your blessings when they happen.

This allowed me the put an additional $10k in my solo401(k) for the 2018 year, fly back east with DW and meet and hold our new baby grandson, help my daughter and son-in-law out who were effected by the government shutdown among other things.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by stoptothink » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:21 am

In every day life, absolutely. I have a ton of flexibility, rarely work more than 40hrs/week, and I know some top producers at my employer (with similar credentials) that make significantly less than I do. But, I have a unique expertise and have published a lot of research in a particular area which there are very few experts in. It would be really difficult to replace me and I could get a job (with a raise) at any of our competitors with one phone call.

That being said, I come on this board and people have actually accused me of lying about how little I make based upon my background and job title.
Last edited by stoptothink on Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by nisiprius » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:28 am

Yes, I was overpaid.
In 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court,' Mark Twain wrote:Intellectual “work” is misnamed; it is a pleasure, a dissipation, and is its own highest reward. The poorest paid architect, engineer, general, author, sculptor, painter, lecturer, advocate, legislator, actor, preacher, singer is constructively in heaven when he is at work; and as for the musician with the fiddle-bow in his hand who sits in the midst of a great orchestra with the ebbing and flowing tides of divine sound washing over him—why, certainly, he is at work, if you wish to call it that, but lord, it’s a sarcasm just the same. The law of work does seem utterly unfair—but there it is, and nothing can change it: the higher the pay in enjoyment the worker gets out of it, the higher shall be his pay in cash, also.
I am glad that my employers never guessed how much I enjoyed programming computers. I got paid quite well for something that was like playing with the world's biggest and fanciest model railroad.

Oh, OK, not entirely--as Mark Twain said elsewhere
Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill is work, while rolling ten-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement.
I mean, you know, "no, don't spend any time planning the layout, start laying track now, and I know you want O gauge but you're going to use HO gauge, and no automatic cattle loaders."
Last edited by nisiprius on Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by 28fe6 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:30 am

Based on my job title and what someone in my position should be doing, I'm paid fairly. Based on what I actually do, I'm ridiculously overpaid.
My situation exactly.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:33 am

I didn't think I was overpaid at my job, in comparison to my peers, but I did think MegaCorp could have found a workforce that was just as competent, but less generously paid. Obviously I was OK with the fact they paid me generously. In comparing difficulty/knowledge required of the jobs of friends, I thought some of them needed a higher set of jobs skills to function effectively, sometimes higher than my job required, but they were paid less. Again, I was OK with that.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by AlphaLess » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:33 am

I feel perpetually underpaid.
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HillCountry
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by HillCountry » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:40 am

I feel I am fully compensated. Otherwise I will switch to another job or RE.

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TxAg
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by TxAg » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:47 am

Nope. I asked a raise this week.

Notsobad
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Notsobad » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:49 am

Actually, I do.
Not compared to others with my specific job, but when compared to others with similar hours and education.
I am lucky that what I am good at and enjoy doing (most of the time) is well compensated.
Unfortunately what different jobs earn is not always fair.

In my view there are many jobs that are overcompensated, especially in the financial sector, when I think about salary vs. what is produced and value to society. Also, too many people are under compensated for the importance of what they do (education)

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Wilderness Librarian » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:04 pm

Now retired - 40 years as an academic librarian. Beginning through mid point or so no way but at the same time probably not underpaid either. Towards end of career definitely yes. Several factors in this - move to campus with unionized faculty and (then) strong finances. However the biggest factor was the rapid evolution of my work from a busy environment with an emphasis on interpretation and interaction with students to a non-busy environment with minimal interpretations, little patron interaction and increasing emphasis on procedural software operations.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by hmw » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:25 pm

Notsobad wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:49 am
Actually, I do.
Not compared to others with my specific job, but when compared to others with similar hours and education.
I am lucky that what I am good at and enjoy doing (most of the time) is well compensated.
Unfortunately what different jobs earn is not always fair.

In my view there are many jobs that are overcompensated, especially in the financial sector, when I think about salary vs. what is produced and value to society. Also, too many people are under compensated for the importance of what they do (education)
I agree. I am a subspecialty surgeon and am fairly compensated at the market rate. But compared to others who probably have similar intelligence and length of education, but had chosen a different field, I am probably overpaid. I am thinking of highly intelligent people who had completed a PhD and chosen to teach or do research. Or some of my medical school classmates who had chosen to be pediatricians, or other primary care physicians.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by knightrider » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:30 pm

I think most of us are overpaid for what we do. In my opinion the majority of our salary is for our trustworthiness and reliability, not skills. I work in IT and engineering. There are tons of people in India and Russia who know 10X more than me and charge $5/hour. But are they trustworthy and reliable with sensitive corporate data?

I keep remembering the movie "Trading Places", when I feel I am overpaid!

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by BolderBoy » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:46 pm

investingdad wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:45 am
Not a typical question, do you think your overpaid for what you do?
Interesting question. I worked my way up from the bottom. When I finished schooling and took my first serious job, I felt guilty about making 2-3x or more than what folks around me were earning (for the same job I used to do before going back to school.)

15 years later I was making 10x what those around me were making. Didn't feel guilty about it, but was a bit awed by the way the capitalistic system works. Didn't dwell on it long. The system clearly assigns value to work of different types. So be it.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect

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Summit111
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Summit111 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:05 pm

Summit111 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:07 am
Following retirement, I was offered consulting projects at 2.5% of my “Pre Retirement” salary...at my former company!
Wow, a 97.5% pay cut! What a deal!
🤣 You got me! Actually 2.5 x my former salary....

Summit
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by 2015 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:14 pm

Retired, every day I feel as if I've never been so overpaid in my life.

Olemiss540
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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Olemiss540 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:20 pm

Machava wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:20 am
whodidntante wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:05 am
All the time. I come from humble beginnings and have a serious case of imposter syndrome.
This is me. I feel like my career is a house of cards that will come crashing down at anytime and I'll end up with a job that has a salary 50% lower of what I'm making.
Yes. My wife hates it, as all financial planning must consider the INEVITABLE and IMPENDING salary reduction (delivering pizzas I am certain).

I am trying to weed this out of my mind so the upcoming house purchase doesn't stress me too much and we don't make compromises that are unnecessary.
I hold index funds because I do not overestimate my ability to pick stocks OR stock pickers.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by corpgator » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:41 pm

I'm making more than I ever thought I would - just now breaking 6 figures with my bonus factored; I grew up poor and so thought $50k would be unthinkable, but at my current salary for the work I do, I feel I am underpaid. On the other hand, when I look for jobs with comparable salaries or a bump, they don't exist in my geo area, so I feel fortunate. Plus my bonus has the potential to be absurdly high - 50% of my salary or more if I only work a ton of hours, so I can't complain of being overworked too much as I get to choose whether to work extra for that bonus or not.

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Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by staythecourse » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:46 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:47 am
I've always felt that if you can measure the impact you have on the bottom line of the company, you should be rewarded proportionally. In that position, my contributions, which I was rewarded for, were much more significant than others. While I was paid more, it wasn't that much more.
Can't say I agree. The idea of "capitalism" is the one who produces the capital makes the money. The worker is not providing capital and for every dollar given to the worker there is less money for those who did supply the capital. The goal of EVERY company (including nonprofits) is to produce as much net profit as possible. SInce labor costs are usually the HIGHEST source on the liabilities section of the ledger you can imagine why their aim is to get enough quality at the lowest cost.

Good luck.

p.s. Not saying I agree with the above, but don't blame any owner thinking that way.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle

ThatGuy
Posts: 953
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:00 am

Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by ThatGuy » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:52 pm

investingdad wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:45 am
Not a typical question, do you think your overpaid for what you do?
Hahahahahaha! Not with all of the conspicuous consumption near me. Stanford Shopping Center has really changed in the past decades.
Halicar wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:59 am
Based on my job title and what someone in my position should be doing, I'm paid fairly. Based on what I actually do, I'm ridiculously overpaid.
Okay, maybe a bit overpaid...
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde

Nissanzx1
Posts: 605
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by Nissanzx1 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:54 pm

Lol. No, I’ve always felt quite the opposite.

I’m in low level B2B sales and I sell $90-100K/mo in product and make only $3500ish/mo. I did car rental for 10 years at $7-12/hr. Lots of manual labor.

I’ve never made over $60K Gross. I work probably 10-12 hours per day. Never felt for one second overpaid...

goblue100
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:31 am

Re: Do you ever feel overpaid?

Post by goblue100 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:55 pm

Halicar wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:59 am
Based on my job title and what someone in my position should be doing, I'm paid fairly. Based on what I actually do, I'm ridiculously overpaid. I spend maybe 5% of my time working and 95% trying to make it look like I'm working, which is in fact far more difficult and stressful than actually working.
This fits me pretty good. My split is more like 30 / 70, so maybe I'm actually over worked! :sharebeer
Financial planners are savers. They want us to be 95 percent confident we can finance a 30-year retirement even though there is an 82 percent probability of being dead by then. - Scott Burns

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