Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

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Broadway2018
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Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:22 pm

I received a semi-verbal job offer (they are still getting approvals, but gave me some of the details) for a great opportunity and am trying to think about if it is worth it. Some background on each company below. I am having trouble deciding if the commute is worth it. I think I would like the work better and it is an area I am interested in. However, I realize I have it pretty good at my current company minus my actual team environment. I am 30 years old and have no kids. Any job I took around where I live would be a 45 minute or so commute regardless. I could negotiate more at the potential job, however, not sure how much more they can go up. It seems they already had to get approval to go this high.

Current
- Salary is $140,000
- Bonus $6,500
- 5 weeks vacation
- work from home 100%
- 401k is only $2000 contribution a year from employer
- pension is $2500-4000 contribution a year from employer
- paid cell phone
- Fortune megacorp
- Looking to leave because I don't like my current work or team
- Interviewed internally and have had no luck moving teams
- regular 2-3% salary increases but may be some time to get to the next level

Potential Employer
- Salary is $151,200 $161,000 $168,000
- Bonus is $33,000 - need to find out more on the likelihood of getting the full bonus
- 4 weeks vacation plus 5 sick days
- commute an hour each way - 50 miles, all highway no traffic, but $12 tolls $46 a day to take the train, 40-45 minute commute
- trying to negotiate 2 days a week work from home 1 day work from home guaranteed; 2 days can be discussed later
- 401k is 3% match first year and goes up to 5% by year 3
- Fortune megacorp
- from what I know, regular 2-3% increases
- Higher title and seems like getting promoted is possible in 1-2 years

Update: They went up to $161,000 right away on the phone. I am pushing for $168,000...

Also, I tried negotiating 2 days from home which will help with the commute. However, they would not commit to it on the phone and kept saying it is something they are open to discussing later. They said 1 day shouldn't be an issue, but 2 would need to be discussed. Also, they were worried about this opening a can of worms since other employees may ask too. Thoughts? I am worried about the language used in the conversation regarding work from home.
Last edited by Broadway2018 on Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:45 am, edited 3 times in total.

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rob
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by rob » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:37 pm

The $ cost of 2 hr commute wipes out (and then some IMO) the increased salary. It comes down to the direction and help on this new role in the future....
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien

riverguy
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by riverguy » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:38 pm

Doesn’t seem worth it at all unless the bigger bonus is essentially guaranteed.

chevca
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by chevca » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:47 pm

Going from working from home all the time to a 1 hour commute each way for not all that much money....

You'd want to drive off the road into a telephone pole in no time. :happy

And, for not all that much money. The grass isn't always greener. What if you didn't like the new job or team?

I have a similar commute with 1 hour each way. It sucks! I have tried to find something closer to home, but nothing has worked out. Long commutes can be done. But, it is definitely not ideal.

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leeks
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by leeks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:19 pm

If the new job appeals to you, just move near it so you will have a short commute.

dcw213
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by dcw213 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:29 pm

That commute sounds like a non starter to me. Not even the time and hours in the car, think about the mileage that will pile up quickly. Lots of increased costs of gas and car maintenance/replacement.

Topic Author
Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:30 pm

leeks wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:19 pm
If the new job appeals to you, just move near it so you will have a short commute.
My SO works 40 minutes in the other direction and we own a house. We did talk about moving, but that would be at least 1-2 years so I could feel out if I would stay there long term. Also, I should add that I don't like working from home 100% of the time. I know most people think this is the dream, but anyone who has done it will tell you it's is very isolating most of the time.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:34 pm

dcw213 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:29 pm
That commute sounds like a non starter to me. Not even the time and hours in the car, think about the mileage that will pile up quickly. Lots of increased costs of gas and car maintenance/replacement.
I calculated about $8k in costs. However, am trying to think about future potential in my career and if I would like the job more. Money wise it's sorta a wash, but if I like my role more and could advance it may be well worth it.

Basically, I am handcuffed to my current job. We live in suburbs of a major city so most jobs are at least a 45-minute commute and it would be hard to find another 100% remote job. This is the best offer I have found in 6 months of looking externally.

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Watty
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Watty » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:48 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:22 pm
- Looking to leave because I don't like my current work or team
- Interviewed internally and have had no luck moving teams
.....
Any job I took around where I live would be a 45 minute or so commute regardless.
If you don't like the team they likely don't like you either.

If you don't like the work then you are likely also not doing the work very well and may never be promoted.

People like that are often at the top of the list to be laid off the next time there are layoffs. People that work at home full time are also often higher on the lay off list than people that work in the office. Some companies periodically have layoffs even when they are financially OK just to clear out unwanted people who they cannot easily fire.

I would suspect that you will not be at that company in a few years no matter what.

The big question is how this job offer compares to what might you might be able to get at some company if you don't take it.

Except for the commute it sounds like a great job offer and you may eventually end up having to take a job with a bad commute anyway.

I would probably take it and then move once your have worked in the new job for long enough to make sure that it is working out OK. I would do this even if it means that you eventually have to sell a house. If you have a spouse that works near where you live now then they might be able to find a job in the new location too.

A couple of things to consider;

1) A two hour combined commute is getting to the point where getting a studio apartment near the office to stay in on week nights would be worth considering. In addition to saving you a lot of time it might be less expensive than the commuting costs.

2) "commute an hour each way - 50 miles," likely means on a good day. Even is there is not normally traffic there will still be occasional bad days because of the weather, accidents, or construction so you need to plan for that. Once in a while there may be something like a snowstorm which would mean that you either don't get to work or have to stay in a hotel. Driving 100 miles a day will cost a lot for gas and your cars will have to be replaced much more frequently. With your personal driving you could be driving 30,000 miles a year. Those will add a lot to your costs.

3) Your chances of being hurt in a car accident are directly proportional to how many miles you drive so there is also some risk involved. People with a long commute often find that one of the things they give up is exercise and spending the time to cook healthy food. When you are running late there will be a tendency to grab some fast food on your way home. Sitting in a car to two extra hours a day does not help your health even if you do still exercise. Having a long commute is not good for you.

4) If you work in a job where you need to be there at a set time like for an 8:00 AM meeting or appointment then you will need to leave home much earlier just in case there is an accident or road construction that delays you that day.

5) Check to see if your pension and 401k match are fully vested in your current job. If you leave that job you might lose any unvested part.

6) How many hours will you work each day? Few jobs are nine to five now and if you will occasionally be working late then have an hour commute that can make a real long day, especially if you have to get up at 5:30 AM to go to work the next day. During a "crunch" it would be easy to be working 12+ hour days when you count the commute. In addition to just being hard in general that will also be hard on any relationships. Before I retired I had a 45 minute commute that was unpredictable and I found that made it really difficult to plan to do anything like even going out to a movie on a weeknight.

7) It would be good to do a dummy tax return including your state taxes to see the after tax impact of extra money you will be making. After taxes and the commuting costs it might not be as much as it sounds.

8) One advantage of working at home is that if you need to have a plumber do some work you will already be there. With the long commute you may find that you burn up some of your vacation days when you have to take them off to run an errand. You will likely need to find doctors and dentists near your new office so you can go to appointments during the day. That will be a problem since if you are home sick your doctor will be an hours drive away.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:55 pm

Watty wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:48 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:22 pm
- Looking to leave because I don't like my current work or team
- Interviewed internally and have had no luck moving teams
.....
Any job I took around where I live would be a 45 minute or so commute regardless.
If you don't like the team they likely don't like you either.

If you don't like the work then you are likely also not doing the work very well and may never be promoted.

People like that are often at the top of the list to be laid off the next time there are layoffs. People that work at home full time are also often higher on the lay off list than people that work in the office. Some companies periodically have layoffs even when they are financially OK just to clear out unwanted people who they cannot easily fire.

I would suspect that you will not be at that company in a few years no matter what.
First, thank you for the detailed feedback. Most people in my company work remote so I don't see it being riskier to work from home. Also, while I may not get promoted, my ratings are always the highest. I have consistently been the highest rating 3 years in a row under 2 different bosses. My work is good, however, I don't enjoy it.

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leeks
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by leeks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:56 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:30 pm
leeks wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:19 pm
If the new job appeals to you, just move near it so you will have a short commute.
My SO works 40 minutes in the other direction and we own a house. We did talk about moving, but that would be at least 1-2 years so I could feel out if I would stay there long term. Also, I should add that I don't like working from home 100% of the time. I know most people think this is the dream, but anyone who has done it will tell you it's is very isolating most of the time.
Ah, my mistake I assumed you were single when rereading all you mentioned was no kids. Yes, that is a tougher situation. I completely understand the potential isolation factor of working from home. If you are not satisfied with the setup, yes look for a change. Are there not potential jobs for you close to where the SO works?

If there is potential that after a year or two, assuming you like the new job, your SO could also get a new job in the same location and you would move together, that *could* be worth it. With no kids in the current picture, a year or two of a crappy commute could be tolerable as a transition phase. But I would not accept it for the long term.

Or, is there some other location entirely where both of you could get new jobs and have good commutes?

You should change jobs since you are unhappy with the current one, but this particular offer is unlikely to be your only opportunity to make a change.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:07 pm

leeks wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:56 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:30 pm
leeks wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:19 pm
If the new job appeals to you, just move near it so you will have a short commute.
My SO works 40 minutes in the other direction and we own a house. We did talk about moving, but that would be at least 1-2 years so I could feel out if I would stay there long term. Also, I should add that I don't like working from home 100% of the time. I know most people think this is the dream, but anyone who has done it will tell you it's is very isolating most of the time.
Ah, my mistake I assumed you were single when rereading all you mentioned was no kids. Yes, that is a tougher situation. I completely understand the potential isolation factor of working from home. If you are not satisfied with the setup, yes look for a change. Are there not potential jobs for you close to where the SO works?

If there is potential that after a year or two, assuming you like the new job, your SO could also get a new job in the same location and you would move together, that *could* be worth it. With no kids in the current picture, a year or two of a crappy commute could be tolerable as a transition phase. But I would not accept it for the long term.

Or, is there some other location entirely where both of you could get new jobs and have good commutes?

You should change jobs since you are unhappy with the current one, but this particular offer is unlikely to be your only opportunity to make a change.
I have been applying for tons on jobs over the past 6 months both here and in Colorado. Literally, have not even had an interview for anything in Colorado and that's applying to at least 50 jobs. I apply but I think most employers these days don't want to relocate people unless they have to. Finding the perfect role, at the right level, with the right salary, and benefits is getting pretty difficult. My salary is already pretty high so finding something at least comparable is pretty tough. I work for a fortune 10 company. Most companies say no thanks as soon as I say my salary range.

DarkHelmetII
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by DarkHelmetII » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:13 pm

My gut is that the commute, even without kids, is too much of a downside. I have no idea where you are in the negotiations, but one may consider giving a no-brainer # like $200+k that you'd definitely take (if they were to offer that). Or convert that bonus into base. Or a combination of both.

Work from home is a huge asset. With those two hours a day, you can be building your own-side business or fulfilling other avenues if you are a little bored at work.

6Pack
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by 6Pack » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:15 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:22 pm
I received a semi-verbal job offer (they are still getting approvals, but gave me some of the details) for a great opportunity and am trying to think about if it is worth it. Some background on each company below. I am having trouble deciding if the commute is worth it. I think I would like the work better and it is an area I am interested in. However, I realize I have it pretty good at my current company minus my actual team environment. I am 30 years old and have no kids. Any job I took around where I live would be a 45 minute or so commute regardless. I could negotiate more at the potential job, however, not sure how much more they can go up. It seems they already had to get approval to go this high.

Current
- Salary is $140,000
- Bonus $6,500
- 5 weeks vacation
- work from home 100%
- 401k is only $2000 contribution a year from employer
- pension is $2500-4000 contribution a year from employer
- paid cell phone
- Fortune megacorp
- Looking to leave because I don't like my current work or team
- Interviewed internally and have had no luck moving teams
- regular 2-3% salary increases but may be some time to get to the next level

Potential Employer
- Salary is $151,200
- Bonus is $33,000 - need to find out more on the likelihood of getting the full bonus
- 4 weeks vacation
- commute an hour each way - 50 miles, all highway no traffic, but $12 tolls
- trying to negotiate 2 days a week work from home
- 401k is 3% match first year and goes up to 5% by year 3
- Fortune megacorp
- from what I know, regular 2-3% increases
- Higher title and seems like getting promoted is possible in 1-2 years
Here are my thoughts:

One less week of vacation = $3,484 (including bonus)
Commuting (gas) = $1,200 (assuming 25 mpg and $2.50/gallon and 48 weeks)
Commuting (tolls) = $2,880 (assuming 5 days a week and 48 weeks)
No cell phone = $1,200

So far you’re at $8,764 in increased costs per year. I left out the 401(k) because I’m not sure of your anticipated contribution level. I also left out the pension, but I’m assuming you won’t have a pension at the new job.

To me, I took a job that pays less, but offers a very good schedule and benefits (federal government) and I have a side business to try to make up some of the difference.

I place a high value on schedule though, since we are a young family.
Last edited by 6Pack on Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

bluebirdy
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by bluebirdy » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:16 pm

30 years old, no kids... could you move closer to this new job if you end up taking and liking it? That would be a factor to consider.

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Will do good
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Will do good » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:22 pm

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:13 pm
Work from home is a huge asset. With those two hours a day, you can be building your own-side business or fulfilling other avenues if you are a little bored at work.
+1, That's what I did, builded my own side business and it ended up making many more times than my megacorp income.
YMMV

Dyloot
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Dyloot » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:34 pm

Positives

1. Great opportunity
2. Work you're interested in
3. Bump in pay
4. Escape from a situation you're not happy with

Negatives

1. WFO vs. 45 minute commute trade off
2. Opposite direction of SO
3. Adding serious miles to your car

At 30 with no kids, I think you take that job and see where it goes. Much has been discussed on this forum on 5 years of experience vs 1 year of experience 5 times, and I think moving on to a new challenge in an area you're interested in really helps spur development and business experience. I love my current role, and it was my experiences across 3 jobs (at two companies) in the past decade that really helped me land it. I may be at my current megacorp for the next 20 years, but I'd be totally comfortable moving on after my 5 year anniversary, too.

You mentioned CO... is that the end goal? If you think you'll end up with your SO long term, it's probably worth sitting down and talking about how you two can end up with jobs in the same area with the shortest possible commute. Life's too short to commute forever.

With that said, 45 minutes with no traffic isn't horrible. With a good supply of Podcasts and audio books you can spend that time on something you enjoy. Add in a couple days WFH and it's totally managed.

Good luck! Hope it works out well for you.

Dyloot
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Dyloot » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:42 pm

Will do good wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:22 pm
DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:13 pm
Work from home is a huge asset. With those two hours a day, you can be building your own-side business or fulfilling other avenues if you are a little bored at work.
+1, That's what I did, builded my own side business and it ended up making many more times than my megacorp income.
YMMV
Or going to the gym. Or doing chores around the house. Or doing your household errands at lunch. Or picking your kid up from school.

I love my WFH life. I start at 6:30 AM, end at 5 PM, and really have the time and flexibility over those 10 1/2 hours to do whatever I want to do. It's great. And I honestly think my employer gets more production out of me than if I was at the office for less hours each day.

With that said, I really miss pulling my team into a conference room and working through a challenge on the white board. But, on the other hand, I can focus intensely on a project for hours at a time with no distractions. I can break for dinner with the family, put my daughter to bed, and come back to work if something is pressing (or I'm just enjoying the work and want to keep at it).

WFH is not perfect, but it's great.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:46 pm

DarkHelmetII wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:13 pm
My gut is that the commute, even without kids, is too much of a downside. I have no idea where you are in the negotiations, but one may consider giving a no-brainer # like $200+k that you'd definitely take (if they were to offer that). Or convert that bonus into base. Or a combination of both.

Work from home is a huge asset. With those two hours a day, you can be building your own-side business or fulfilling other avenues if you are a little bored at work.
At my current job, I cannot do any other work. Any other income has to be approved by the company.

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samsoes
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by samsoes » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 pm

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Don't do it!

Two years ago, I traded a job 7 miles away (with all the major holidays plus Columbus and Veteran's day, Good Friday, Easter Monday, Thanksgiving Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, entire week between Christmas and New Year) for one 45 miles away with very few holidays. (Yes, I have to drive to work on MLK Day.)

Sure, it was more money. A bonus and equity awards where there were neither in the prior job. But more job stress. And the commuting stress will certainly kill me if I don't pull the ripcord soon.

Don't do it! I wish I didn't. :oops: :oops:
"Happiness Is Not My Companion" - Gen. Gouverneur K. Warren. | (Avatar is the statue of Gen. Warren atop Little Round Top @ Gettysburg National Military Park.)

dbr
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by dbr » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:54 pm

Reading what you say about your current job the subtext is that you will be leaving that employer sooner or later anyway. If that is really the case you have a false proposition here because there is no work at home job and all the choices involve a significant commute.

Is it possible this is the reality of the situation?

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five2one
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by five2one » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:00 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:46 pm
At my current job, I cannot do any other work. Any other income has to be approved by the company.
What? Can you explain this?

From my perspective, a job change requires more money, improved quality of life, or title.
I don't see any of those in your statements.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by nisiprius » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:01 pm

About fifteen years of my career involved about a 75-minute commute by train and subway (with the ability to read or snooze en route).

About twenty involved a 50-minute commute by car under "normal" conditions, often extending unpredictably and unexpected into a 75 to 90-minute commute, and perhaps an average of once a year, snow hitting during working hours might result in its taking as long as 3 hours to get home.

About two years were spent at a place where I had a car commute of about 25 minutes. The difference between 25 minutes and 50 was huge.

I would say that certainly, one can do a one-hour commute and survive, but, gee. I won't say "don't do it." I did it. But do not underestimate the stress and the toll it takes. You may get home at the expected time, listening to something decent on the radio the whole way... but still discover that when you get home you are too darned tired to do anything. Too tired to go out to dinner, too tired to shop, too tired to tell the kids anything but "leave Daddy alone."
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by dbr » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:03 pm

five2one wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:00 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:46 pm
At my current job, I cannot do any other work. Any other income has to be approved by the company.
What? Can you explain this?

From my perspective, a job change requires more money, improved quality of life, or title.
I don't see any of those in your statements.
Lot's of employers are concerned with conflict of interest or protection of intellectual property. It is not likely they will not approve of working weekends as a janitor but might be very concerned with doing specialized data analysis for a competitor.

quantAndHold
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by quantAndHold » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:04 pm

People are underestimaging the cost of the commute. The federal mileage reimbursement rate for 2019 is $0.58. That’s a pretty good proxy for car expenses. At 100 miles per day, plus $12/day for tolls, it’s more like $15,000/year in car expense. Never mind the pain of a long commute and how much OP’s time is worth.

If there really are no other closer jobs, I would make the ultimate goal be relocation. But you’ll have to work that out with your spouse.

Dyloot
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Dyloot » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:04 pm
People are underestimaging the cost of the commute. The federal mileage reimbursement rate for 2019 is $0.58. That’s a pretty good proxy for car expenses. At 100 miles per day, plus $12/day for tolls, it’s more like $15,000/year in car expense. Never mind the pain of a long commute and how much OP’s time is worth.

If there really are no other closer jobs, I would make the ultimate goal be relocation. But you’ll have to work that out with your spouse.
It's true, but that also means you could be letting a job you don't like and lacks opportunities become golden handcuffs.

I heard the OP say opportunity, in an area he's interested in, with the possibility of promotion. I heard him say that he doesn't like his current job and has failed to transfer out to a new department. He's also very young and has no children.

If there's a time to continue chasing opportunities, it's now. In 5-10 years he could be making a great deal more doing something he loves because he took a chance at leaving a WFH gig (that he doesn't even like).

Dyloot
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Dyloot » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:10 pm

dbr wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:03 pm
five2one wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:00 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:46 pm
At my current job, I cannot do any other work. Any other income has to be approved by the company.
What? Can you explain this?

From my perspective, a job change requires more money, improved quality of life, or title.
I don't see any of those in your statements.
Lot's of employers are concerned with conflict of interest or protection of intellectual property. It is not likely they will not approve of working weekends as a janitor but might be very concerned with doing specialized data analysis for a competitor.
My WFH agreement has a clause in it that I can't work another job while I'm on the clock.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by onourway » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:15 pm

I know that the advice you get here will generally be strongly against increasing commute time unless the job is significantly better. I generally agree with this, however, in your situation I think the job warrants strong consideration. You are relatively young and don't have kids. You have relatively limited prospects in your current position. Working from home is difficult for many people, it sounds like you included, especially over the long-term. Even at $15k or so in commuting costs, plus your time, you've still increased your income at a relatively young age, potentially at a company that will give you more options in the future. And if it doesn't work out after a couple years, you can likely change again, and get yet another pay bump for doing so. If your spouse doesn't hate the idea, and especially if they are willing to consider moving closer to this location in the future if it goes well, I'd strongly consider this opportunity.

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five2one
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by five2one » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:18 pm

dbr wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:03 pm
five2one wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:00 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:46 pm
At my current job, I cannot do any other work. Any other income has to be approved by the company.
What? Can you explain this?

From my perspective, a job change requires more money, improved quality of life, or title.
I don't see any of those in your statements.
Lot's of employers are concerned with conflict of interest or protection of intellectual property. It is not likely they will not approve of working weekends as a janitor but might be very concerned with doing specialized data analysis for a competitor.
I understand non-compete clauses if you are building a competing business.
If you are going a different direction you can probably do it off the clock.

siriusblack
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by siriusblack » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:19 pm

I think you should mostly ignore the financials on this decision since the two jobs seem very similar financially for you (all things considered)-- the question should be (a) does the new job excite you and give you a sense of new energy, (b) are you more likely to grow your long-term career at the new company or the current one, and (c) does the new job stretch you or develop you in ways you wouldn't be stretched in your current job? If the answer is "yes", then I personally would go for it -- especially if you can negotiate 2 days of work-from-home a week. You have a long career ahead of you-- do something that interests and energizes you, where you can be continuously learning. (Also-- I guess everyone is different, but for me driving a few extra hours a week isn't a big deal ... just get an audible subscription and you'll be fine.)

quantAndHold
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by quantAndHold » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:20 pm

Dyloot wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:04 pm
People are underestimaging the cost of the commute. The federal mileage reimbursement rate for 2019 is $0.58. That’s a pretty good proxy for car expenses. At 100 miles per day, plus $12/day for tolls, it’s more like $15,000/year in car expense. Never mind the pain of a long commute and how much OP’s time is worth.

If there really are no other closer jobs, I would make the ultimate goal be relocation. But you’ll have to work that out with your spouse.
It's true, but that also means you could be letting a job you don't like and lacks opportunities become golden handcuffs.

I heard the OP say opportunity, in an area he's interested in, with the possibility of promotion. I heard him say that he doesn't like his current job and has failed to transfer out to a new department. He's also very young and has no children.

If there's a time to continue chasing opportunities, it's now. In 5-10 years he could be making a great deal more doing something he loves because he took a chance at leaving a WFH gig (that he doesn't even like).
True that he should be chasing opportunities. But people tend to underestimate how long their commute is, and the amount of pain a prospective commute will add. I doubt there are many 50 mile commutes from the suburbs to the city that can consistently be done in an hour. And an hour plus commute is a really good way to make your life miserable, regardless of the career opportunity it’s attached to.

I see it from a different direction. If he doesn’t have kids and is in career building mode, this is the time to relocate to someplace where the opportunities are better.

Dyloot
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Dyloot » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:25 pm

quantAndHold wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:20 pm
Dyloot wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 pm
quantAndHold wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:04 pm
People are underestimaging the cost of the commute. The federal mileage reimbursement rate for 2019 is $0.58. That’s a pretty good proxy for car expenses. At 100 miles per day, plus $12/day for tolls, it’s more like $15,000/year in car expense. Never mind the pain of a long commute and how much OP’s time is worth.

If there really are no other closer jobs, I would make the ultimate goal be relocation. But you’ll have to work that out with your spouse.
It's true, but that also means you could be letting a job you don't like and lacks opportunities become golden handcuffs.

I heard the OP say opportunity, in an area he's interested in, with the possibility of promotion. I heard him say that he doesn't like his current job and has failed to transfer out to a new department. He's also very young and has no children.

If there's a time to continue chasing opportunities, it's now. In 5-10 years he could be making a great deal more doing something he loves because he took a chance at leaving a WFH gig (that he doesn't even like).
True that he should be chasing opportunities. But people tend to underestimate how long their commute is, and the amount of pain a prospective commute will add. I doubt there are many 50 mile commutes from the suburbs to the city that can consistently be done in an hour. And an hour plus commute is a really good way to make your life miserable, regardless of the career opportunity it’s attached to.

I see it from a different direction. If he doesn’t have kids and is in career building mode, this is the time to relocate to someplace where the opportunities are better.
I totally agree with you. And he says that he (and his girlfriend) are homeowners, and she works in the opposite decision.

It sounds like there needs to be some long-term fixing done.

I, myself, would not take on a 60 minute commute... except that he said that there's no traffic and it's highway driving. As I read what I just wrote, I still cringe.

So, back to square one. I agree with you. There needs to be some greater changes made for a better overall situation.

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Watty
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Watty » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:34 pm

If you are planning on having kids you need to think through how working from at home will work then. A young kid is a 24/7 job and you will love your time with them but getting some time in the office away from the kid is also a very good break after a while.

You will also need to be careful about how you seperate your time. If your spouse is watching the kid and asks you to watch the kid for five minutes then just with Murphys Law that will be when your boss calls. If they hear a fussy kid in the background that will bring up all sorts of questions about you working from home.
Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:55 pm
Also, while I may not get promoted, my ratings are always the highest. I have consistently been the highest rating 3 years in a row under 2 different bosses. My work is good, however, I don't enjoy it.
You also need to worry about stagnating and it sounds like you have not had much luck with transfering into a different roll within your current company.

Before I retired I worked in IT and it was not uncommon to see a resume for someone with 15 years experience but it was basically the same three years five times.

I was always a techie and some sort of software developer because it fit my personality and I had no desire to go into management but especially early in my career I had a lot of variety which really helped develop my career and showed progressive responsibility.
Last edited by Watty on Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thegame14
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Thegame14 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:11 pm

not worth it. The money sounds good but bonuses can always be cut, and commute means 2 hours of your life everyday gone plus car costs, gas costs, and stress costs on your health.

Plus that pension doesn't sound like a lot now, but will add up over time. if you have kids, then you may need more money and would want to think of a new job, but I would enjoy the free time now.

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8foot7
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by 8foot7 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:45 pm

You basically eat up the modest increase in pay in commuting costs and will be in a soul sucking traffic maze. I would politely counter that given the new role and difference in commute and lifestyle that you wouldn’t be able to consider any offer under $200k base.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by harrychan » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:38 pm

I did something similar to you two years ago. I gave up a 100% WFH position and took a position that required me to commute 36 miles each way against traffic which took about 45 min. The job was easy and I've managed it to a point where I literally reviewed some e-mails and attended meetings in the morning and the rest of the day was left to monitor IM's and emails for any escalations. What made my decision easy was that I got a 45% bump and much more potential in the new job. I am now telecommuting 1 and sometimes 2 days a week. I can also occasionally go to a nearby satellite office which is 10 min. away.

As others have said, financially it is a wash. You will have to decide if the potential is worth the time you will spend on the road. I would read through glassdoor reviews and see how the internal reviews are. You can also go through linkedin profiles and review how others in the same company progressed in their careers at the potential megacorp.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:46 pm

Thank you everyone for the great advice! I am going to wait for the final job offer this week and see what they say about working from home 2 times a week. Also, given the transportation costs, I am going to ask 16% more base. I don't want to come off as greedy, but definitely, need to cover my expenses. I am worried about asking for too much as I have not had good luck in the past.

Any thoughts on what to counter with? Is 16% too much?

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:48 pm

harrychan wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:38 pm
I did something similar to you two years ago. I gave up a 100% WFH position and took a position that required me to commute 36 miles each way against traffic which took about 45 min. The job was easy and I've managed it to a point where I literally reviewed some e-mails and attended meetings in the morning and the rest of the day was left to monitor IM's and emails for any escalations. What made my decision easy was that I got a 45% bump and much more potential in the new job. I am now telecommuting 1 and sometimes 2 days a week. I can also occasionally go to a nearby satellite office which is 10 min. away.

As others have said, financially it is a wash. You will have to decide if the potential is worth the time you will spend on the road. I would read through glassdoor reviews and see how the internal reviews are. You can also go through linkedin profiles and review how others in the same company progressed in their careers at the potential megacorp.
Glad to hear it is going well for you! On LinkedIn and Glassdoor, it seems like a typical MegaCorp. I can't imagine it being any worse then the others I have worked at. Also, I feel this role would give me more of a niche. Right now, I have bounced around different industries and such. I could see myself enjoying the work and specializing a bit more.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by mortfree » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:53 pm

You have been looking for 6 months and this is the best offer.

You realize a new job will require a commute of 45 minutes.

BH will tell you that if you can’t walk or bike to work it’s too far.

I’ve been commuting 1-1.5 hr (each way) for way too long (19 years) but it has worked for me.

I would take the new job and move closer once you know it is a good fit and your gf can get a job nearby.

Good luck!

ETA: it is not your employers problem that you do not choose to live closer to work. I wouldn’t ask for more to cover commuting expenses.
Last edited by mortfree on Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thegame14
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Thegame14 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:54 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:46 pm
Thank you everyone for the great advice! I am going to wait for the final job offer this week and see what they say about working from home 2 times a week. Also, given the transportation costs, I am going to ask 16% more base. I don't want to come off as greedy, but definitely, need to cover my expenses. I am worried about asking for too much as I have not had good luck in the past.

Any thoughts on what to counter with? Is 16% too much?
I have had a few job offers, and most have not been willing to budge. I even got my most recent job offer with the boss saying upfront this offer is one time non-negotiable and if you ask for $1 more it is rescinded. most other jobs I have asked for more vacation or commitment on tuition costs and most just up the base by $5K, I don't think 16% is going to happen, but I wish you luck.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by OnTrack2020 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:26 am

We did the commutes when we were in our 30s. My husband commuted 50 miles in one direction, while I commuted 50+ miles in the other direction. We lived in the middle. His commute was pretty much straight highway driving, as was mine. Looking back, I would never do it again. Too much bad weather to contend with in the winter and too much wear and tear on the vehicles. Gas was fairly inexpensive then--that was about the only positive.
And once we had children, I became a SAHM, while husband continued to commute. We stopped that also after about one year and moved closer to his work. Now it is 20 years later, and his commute is about 2 miles. Super easy. Getting closer to retirement.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm

Update: They went up to $161,000 right away on the phone. I am pushing for $168,000...

Also, I tried negotiating 2 days from home which will help with the commute. However, they would not commit to it on the phone and kept saying it is something they are open to discussing later. They said 1 day shouldn't be an issue, but 2 would need to be discussed. Also, they were worried about this opening a can of worms since other employees may ask too. Thoughts? I am worried about the language used in the conversation regarding work from home.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by 8foot7 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:37 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm
Update: They went up to $161,000 right away on the phone. I am pushing for $168,000...

Also, I tried negotiating 2 days from home which will help with the commute. However, they would not commit to it on the phone and kept saying it is something they are open to discussing later. They said 1 day shouldn't be an issue, but 2 would need to be discussed. Also, they were worried about this opening a can of worms since other employees may ask too. Thoughts? I am worried about the language used in the conversation regarding work from home.
That it would open a can of worms is certainly a reasonable hesitation on their part. If they're willing to work 1 day a week from home into your offer letter at 168, I'd seriously consider the deal.

I would very much caution you not to accept the offer if they are not willing to commit in writing to one day at home a week in your offer letter--these types of discussions have a way of evaporating in the fog of war between HR, hiring manager, you, and the weeks in between now and your start date. It could turn into "well, after you get settled in, but for now we need you here all week" to "I'm not sure we're quite in the flow of normal work yet" to "well you don't see other colleagues working from home, do you?" and now all of a sudden something very valuable to you has disappeared.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 pm

8foot7 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm
Update: They went up to $161,000 right away on the phone. I am pushing for $168,000...

Also, I tried negotiating 2 days from home which will help with the commute. However, they would not commit to it on the phone and kept saying it is something they are open to discussing later. They said 1 day shouldn't be an issue, but 2 would need to be discussed. Also, they were worried about this opening a can of worms since other employees may ask too. Thoughts? I am worried about the language used in the conversation regarding work from home.
That it would open a can of worms is certainly a reasonable hesitation on their part. If they're willing to work 1 day a week from home into your offer letter at 168, I'd seriously consider the deal.

I would very much caution you not to accept the offer if they are not willing to commit in writing to one day at home a week in your offer letter--these types of discussions have a way of evaporating in the fog of war between HR, hiring manager, you, and the weeks in between now and your start date. It could turn into "well, after you get settled in, but for now we need you here all week" to "I'm not sure we're quite in the flow of normal work yet" to "well you don't see other colleagues working from home, do you?" and now all of a sudden something very valuable to you has disappeared.
Thanks, I am a little nervous to accept. HR mentioned it's the manager's decision on work from home. And he is the one I directly spoke to about it. On one hand, I understand not committing when you don't know the person, but on the other, so many companies are flexible nowadays. I have not worked in an office full time for the past 8 years. Also, I should mention the office I would be going to has no one on my direct team in it. So I don't really see why I need to be there all the time. Lots to think about. I am also trying to stall because I am still in other interviews, but I am sure they will want an answer soon.

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MortgageOnBlack
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by MortgageOnBlack » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:58 pm

What exactly do you guys do to warrant these types of jobs? I work my tail off and can't seem to get over a 70k salary hump.

JBTX
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by JBTX » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:34 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm
Update: They went up to $161,000 right away on the phone. I am pushing for $168,000...

Also, I tried negotiating 2 days from home which will help with the commute. However, they would not commit to it on the phone and kept saying it is something they are open to discussing later. They said 1 day shouldn't be an issue, but 2 would need to be discussed. Also, they were worried about this opening a can of worms since other employees may ask too. Thoughts? I am worried about the language used in the conversation regarding work from home.
If they let you work from home they realistically have to let others do that also, and that may not be their culture. I wouldn't count on that second day at home.

Purely from a financial perspective, I wouldn't do it just for the money. You are looking approx $10k-$15k more per year vehicle expenses including tolls, if you include wear and tear on your vehicle. As somebody who has commuted like you are proposing for 20 years, you will go through cars faster. And on an hourly basis you are about the same including commute time. As for bonus, I've never put much stock on bonuses as they are often at least partially dependent on things outside of my control.

However the fact that you don't like multiple team members is concerning, and may be a signal for you to try elsewhere. I recommend doing some soul searching as to why that is and why you think it will be different elsewhere. Also, how bad can interactions be if you are working from home? On the flip.side working from home is somewhat overrated, and you may find you can cultivate team relationships better in person.

There is also value in trying something different in that either it will be better, or it won't and that cause you to rethink what the core problem is. Take it from someone who had inflated expectations early in my career but not really interested in investing in the relationships to make things better.

Only you can answer this one.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by stoptothink » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:43 pm

MortgageOnBlack wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:58 pm
What exactly do you guys do to warrant these types of jobs? I work my tail off and can't seem to get over a 70k salary hump.
I ask myself the same every day on this board. I have a PhD, nearly a decade of experience, am a super high achiever (have gotten 99th percentile scores on end of year review for 4 consecutive years), and am a director for the world's largest company in my industry, and make significantly less than OP (quite a bit more than $70k though). There are about two handfuls of individuals in my multi-billion dollar 4,000+ employee company that make more than $168k/yr. I guess I am in the wrong industry.

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Broadway2018
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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Broadway2018 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:21 pm

MortgageOnBlack wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:58 pm
What exactly do you guys do to warrant these types of jobs? I work my tail off and can't seem to get over a 70k salary hump.
I work in analytics and reporting for top 20 Fortune companies. Job hop every 3-5 years and get a 25-30% bump. Staying at a job with 2-3% raises is not going to ever bump your salary enough. You have to be willing to flexible and accept change frequently.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Cmnilz87 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:44 pm

Broadway2018 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 pm
8foot7 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:37 pm
Broadway2018 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm
Update: They went up to $161,000 right away on the phone. I am pushing for $168,000...

Also, I tried negotiating 2 days from home which will help with the commute. However, they would not commit to it on the phone and kept saying it is something they are open to discussing later. They said 1 day shouldn't be an issue, but 2 would need to be discussed. Also, they were worried about this opening a can of worms since other employees may ask too. Thoughts? I am worried about the language used in the conversation regarding work from home.
That it would open a can of worms is certainly a reasonable hesitation on their part. If they're willing to work 1 day a week from home into your offer letter at 168, I'd seriously consider the deal.

I would very much caution you not to accept the offer if they are not willing to commit in writing to one day at home a week in your offer letter--these types of discussions have a way of evaporating in the fog of war between HR, hiring manager, you, and the weeks in between now and your start date. It could turn into "well, after you get settled in, but for now we need you here all week" to "I'm not sure we're quite in the flow of normal work yet" to "well you don't see other colleagues working from home, do you?" and now all of a sudden something very valuable to you has disappeared.
Thanks, I am a little nervous to accept. HR mentioned it's the manager's decision on work from home. And he is the one I directly spoke to about it. On one hand, I understand not committing when you don't know the person, but on the other, so many companies are flexible nowadays. I have not worked in an office full time for the past 8 years. Also, I should mention the office I would be going to has no one on my direct team in it. So I don't really see why I need to be there all the time. Lots to think about. I am also trying to stall because I am still in other interviews, but I am sure they will want an answer soon.

Can you trade out some on the bonus for a higher starting salary? They say 161k, come back at 180k and a 20k bonus based on performance. I wouldn’t push any harder on extra money for commuting or WFH days, because they’ll cut you off. Those bonuses are never a guarantee. I always believe in a higher starting salary, other beneficials 401k 2nd, bonus 3rd.

They’ve given you a verbal offer, but nothing’s guaranteed till you see it on a paper and then the official negotiating begins. They may be just giving a verbal offer to gauge if you’ll even play in their ballpark, so they don’t waste anytime with paperwork first.

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Re: Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute

Post by Davinci » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:10 pm

Evaluating Job Offer - Longer Commute
Your time is very valuable, a simple calculation shows that the increase in commute time will be worth ~$75k of your time and the increase in salary adding extra cost of commute (gas, car maintenance) puts you around $60-65k so it is in reality a $10k/year increase under these considerations.

Take this offer to the current employer to negotiate a salary increase. This is very typical so you can end up with a high salary increase and no commute (win-win).

I personally went from essentially zero commute to (50 mile) 90 minuted daily commute from Megacorp with horrendous work/life balance and toxic environment to much better work life and enjoyable work at non Megacorp at about the salary and took me time to adjust to the commute but it was worth it for me.

Best of luck!
" Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" Leonardo Da Vinci.

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