Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

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Ron Ronnerson
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Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:52 pm

Up until recently, my father-in-law, age 66, had been taking care of his father. He had been living in my wife's grandfather's home for many years. My wife’s grandfather passed away a few months ago at age 99, the house was sold, and my father-in-law has been traveling the past few months. He is now ready to settle down for a while and recently applied for a senior housing apartment that is currently being constructed and should be ready very soon. The apartment requires a minimum of $3600 per month in income and they said my father-in-law doesn’t qualify as he has no income. However, we’re confused by this.

They provided a disclosure that says they “do not discriminate on the basis of race, color...age...source of income...” Under a section titled “If you are not employed or have other sources of income, you may provide any of the following as applicable,” there is a bullet point that reads “the last three most current and consecutive bank statements showing liquid assets.” My father-in-law provided those statements and they said assets do not count as a source of income. They said income needs to be from social security (which he hasn’t yet applied for), an annuity, or from work. They said they had checked with their management and this is their decision.

We emailed them asking how assets could not count as income, particularly for seniors who often aren’t working any more. However, the people working at the office typically work at a different apartment complex (not specifically for seniors) and really don’t seem to have any answers. Also, they will be closed for the next five days due to the weekend and New Year’s. As of yesterday, they released the apartment that was being held for my father-in-law and are refunding his deposit (though in our email to them we had requested that they hold it until we can get things clarified).

Our question is this: Can an apartment (particularly for seniors) ignore assets when determining who has sufficient income to afford an apartment? This sounds strange to us but perhaps we just don't understand how these things work. The rent would be right around $1k per month and he has seven-figures in liquid assets. This is in California.

Thanks for any guidance.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by DanMahowny » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:54 pm

Pre-pay?
Funding secured

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:55 pm

DanMahowny wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:54 pm
Pre-pay?
He offered to do that for the entire 12-month lease. They said that isn't allowed.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Bruce T » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:58 pm

This might be a useful resource...
https://housing.org/fair-housing/source ... imination/
Best,
Bruce

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by 3spots » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:00 pm

I had the same problem when I retired and needed to refinance my house: plenty of assets, but no income source. A broker had me put my IRA on an automatic withdrawal for 3 months, which was enough to qualify for the loan, then I canceled the IRA withdrawal and paid mortgage with my liquid assets.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by DanMahowny » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:00 pm

Ron Ronnerson wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:55 pm
DanMahowny wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:54 pm
Pre-pay?
He offered to do that for the entire 12-month lease. They said that isn't allowed.

That's just nuts. Sorry man.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by stan1 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:05 pm

$1000 per month in California. Is this subsidized housing? If so there may be a city or county office you can appeal to.

If he has seven figures of net worth might he have close to $3K/month in interest/dividends declared on his tax return?

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Stinky » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:06 pm

3spots wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:00 pm
I had the same problem when I retired and needed to refinance my house: plenty of assets, but no income source. A broker had me put my IRA on an automatic withdrawal for 3 months, which was enough to qualify for the loan, then I canceled the IRA withdrawal and paid mortgage with my liquid assets.
This sounds like a good solution.

Or just find another apartment that is more accommodating.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by RudyS » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:07 pm

stan1 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:05 pm
$1000 per month in California. Is this subsidized housing? If so there may be a city or county office you can appeal to.

If he has seven figures of net worth might he have close to $3K/month in interest/dividends declared on his tax return?
Was just about to suggest that.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Big Dog » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:10 pm

He is now ready to settle down for a while and recently applied for a senior housing apartment that is currently being constructed and should be ready very soon.
I would complain to his City (County/State?) Department of Aging or Planning Commission. If they are building a new place, someone had to approve it....they might have even received a zoning allowance or tax credit for senior housing.

Regardless, rejecting an offer to prepay for a year sounds like clear discrimination to me. They must want 50-somethings....

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Shallowpockets » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:17 pm

I think they want a regular income. Such as monthly. Has to be coming in and counted on. When my S.O. tried to get a CC she was turned down for that reason. Her assets are over 1m but she is not on SS yet.
It's like a bank special offer for owning a checking account and receiving a bonus. Usually they require a monthly direct deposit. if you transfer over 500k, that is not enough, they want the deposit although I do not know why in these cases.
So your FIL needs monthly at least 3600 as you said. Regular as clockwork.
Strange they should require that amount if the rent is only 1k.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by techland » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:30 pm

Another option is to possibly have someone co-sign for him, that does have monthly income?

Obvious question- if he has seven figures in liquid assets, why doesn't he just buy a small condo somewhere?

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Kenkat » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:34 pm

It is a lot easier for assets to go elsewhere than income, so this is why you see this type of requirement. I think it will be difficult to get them to budge on this, barring some specific state law or local statute you can point to. An elder law specialist might be able to help with this. My guess would be that as long as they apply the rules equally to all, their limits are allowed.

Have you considered having him file for social security and purchase a single premium immediate annuity to get him to the $3600 income level? I know there are logical reasons for waiting to claim social security or not annuitizing a portion of the portfolio, but on the other hand, if this is THE place for him, it could be worth it.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by bberris » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:58 pm

Kenkat wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:34 pm
It is a lot easier for assets to go elsewhere than income, so this is why you see this type of requirement. ..."
Easier? I think it would be a lot easier to gamble away one-month's pay than 1MM savings. If he has 12 months of rent in the bank that should be sufficient. The management is being ridiculous and probably breaking the law.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'll answer some of the questions/points that have been brought up.

He doesn't want to buy a property right now. He's not certain where he'd like to spend the years ahead and wants freedom. An apartment would provide sort of a "home base."

He has considered filing for social security and also getting an annuity. However, they want three months of records so I suppose that won't help him in this situation.

His most recent tax return wouldn't show interest and dividends as he inherited money when his father passed away (which was this year). Prior to that, he was taking care of his father and not working outside the home.

While we're not sure we'd want to cosign, from our conversation with the people working at the apartment complex, it sounded like that wouldn't be an option anyway.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by texasdiver » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:16 pm

Rather than guessing, why not ask for a meeting with the management and find out exactly what they will accept.

Based on my experience dealing with getting my daughter into an apartment complex near her college, I found that the local manager was 100% constrained by corporate policies set in another state. Even had she been willing to bend the rules, the corporate software would have rejected the application. They simply didn't trust or provide the local property managers with any discretion at all. In tight housing markets they don't have to.

None of this is likely to be personal. If he wants the place, just find out what they need to see to make the deal work. Then figure out how to generate $3500 in monthly income.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by michaeljc70 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:42 pm

Since the housing is still under construction, apply for SS and get an annuity for the difference to get his income to 36k. If he has to live somewhere else for a few months (or travel again), then do that. Or look for somewhere else for him to live.

They aren't going to change their rules for you. These rules may sound silly, but are also applied when applying for a conforming mortgage. It doesn't matter if you have $2 million in the bank and want a $300k mortgage. No income, no mortgage. I was forced to pay cash for my last place due to even sillier rules (I was self employed, but not for long enough and had cash/assets).
Last edited by michaeljc70 on Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Dave55 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:46 pm

Ron Ronnerson wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:55 pm
DanMahowny wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:54 pm
Pre-pay?
He offered to do that for the entire 12-month lease. They said that isn't allowed.
Ron did you take the pre-pay offer to the manager of the apartment building? Or owner? I would find it hard to believe that the manager or owner would turn that down.

Dave

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by dodecahedron » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:51 pm

neilpilot wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:01 pm
File online for SS, and provide the benefits letter that SS provides online. Then, after the lease is in hand, suspend those SS benefits.
Even better than just suspending, he has up to 12 months after applying to completely withdraw his application for SS, repay the benefits received and continue deferring all the way to age 70.

https://www.ssa.gov/planners/retire/withdrawal.html

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by michaeljc70 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:57 pm

The max normal social security benefit is around $2900. He still needs to supplement that to reach the $3600.

Can he get a job making $3600/mo easily? Just for a few months to get into the apartment.

How set is he on this particular complex? Have you looked at others? Do they have similar requirements?

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by magister » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:00 pm

I can’t advise you on the law, but it sounds to me like there is a corporate policy that requires documentation of adequate monthly income. To my mind, it is a dumb policy, esp. for a company that caters to seniors; but explaining this to them is unlikely to get you very far. And I think it would be overkill to claim SS early or purchase an annuity for the sole purpose of qualifying for a lousy apartment. Why not just take your father’s business elsewhere? I am sure somebody will be eager to rent to a loaded retiree. He sounds like an ideal tenant.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:04 pm

Something seems off here.

Is this "senior housing" that somehow is authorized by the local town (discounted fees/taxes, or whatever)?
Not to mention IF they state that
"... If you are not employed or have other sources of income, you may provide any of the following as applicable,” there is a bullet point that reads “the last three most current and consecutive bank statements showing liquid assets ..."

Refusing to accept the terms that are written is something that *should* be explored as discriminatory.
Check with the town or state housing departments and elder/senior affairs, plus an attorney familiar with this. (There may even be penalties if this is being done in a discriminatory fashion.)

Obviously, this would all depend upon state/local regs/laws, plus the actual written terms of the facility itself. (They need to apply those to all, not impose special terms on "some" - and all the more so if it is someone "elderly" or in any other protected class.)

WHY specify in writing about the "showing liquid assets" if they will absolutely not be acceptable no matter how much?
And not to allow full pre-payment (perhaps with some substantial deposit, which could be a fair concern in case of damage, IF "income" isn't available, etc.)... there *are* reasons to be suspicious of "pre-payment offers", but denying this along with all of the other barriers, including those that violate their own written terms?

Something is "off".
Sometimes even a brief overture from an attorney (or from the elder affairs office), etc., can be very effective when there is a problem that "shouldn't" be a problem.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:07 pm

Thanks for the responses. We're not taking it personally, but are just perplexed that they wouldn't be willing to accept the bank statements as proof of ability to pay rent. Their own disclosure lists bank statements as an option for unemployed individuals. We sent them an email asking why that is listed as an acceptable document if it doesn't count but have not gotten a response back.

As for prepaying, they said they can't do that. We spoke with both people in their office, which is currently at another apartment complex since the senior housing apartments are under construction at the moment. They said they spoke with their management (not sure where they are located) and they were told that income needs to come from social security, work, or an annuity.

Even if my father-in-law applied for social security, he wouldn't get $3600/month from it. What do seniors do to get into an apartment if their social security checks are insufficient and a seven-figure portfolio is considered irrelevant? We're not blaming the workers at the apartment complex for this, but just trying to make sense of this policy/system.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by mbres60 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:34 pm

Read the post above yours that was posted probably while you were typing. Some suggestions there. I definitely would check with an elder care attorney. Maybe they offer a free consultation. They should be quite familiar with local laws.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by RadAudit » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:43 pm

The local TV investigative reporter?
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by KlingKlang » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:59 pm

Just for reference he should be able to purchase a 5 year period certain annuity paying $3600/month for about $210,000.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by AlphaLess » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:03 pm

Ron Ronnerson wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:55 pm
DanMahowny wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:54 pm
Pre-pay?
He offered to do that for the entire 12-month lease. They said that isn't allowed.
I have known other landlords who are equally <remove bad adjective> about such issues.

Don't have any advice, just sharing the experience.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by nalor511 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:13 pm

I think the suggestion a few posts up of setting up the IRA (or other account) to auto-withraw, then showing a printout of said auto-withraw, then cancelling said auto-withdraw, should be able to meet their requirement.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:14 pm

We got this weird thing about income going on here around the US. Money that isn't income doesn't count. Assets that aren't income don't count. We see it repeatedly in threads here at bogleheads.org.

If I own lots of assets that throw off dividends or interest I have income, and I'm acceptable, at least in some circumstances. If when I need money I sell something I own it doesn't count.

It seems to me similar to the threads here where dividends are important even though they don't increase one's wealth.

I don't know the solution. If I can pay what I owe from my portfolio without somebody else specifically paying me periodically it doesn't count. Nobody seems to evaluate what its's (the grammar is unclear to me in this instance) organizations' ability is to continue selling assets as I judiciously place orders for them to fill.

PJW
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Kennedy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:48 pm

I haven't read all the replies here, but as a landlord myself, I don't accept prepaid rent. The reason for that is in the event the tenant files for bankruptcy during his tenancy, any prepaid rent could be considered an asset and then the trustee could argue it should be seized.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by remomnyc » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 pm

I just ran into this situation when looking to move after I retired. Buildings that were subject to certain programs could not accept a year's rent in advance. They could accept a guarantor, including a corporate guarantor, such as insurent.com or theguarantors.com, which charge 5-10% of the rent. Everyone was willing to count our dividend and interest income as long as we could show that we receive it regularly (3 years of income taxes). Seniors can show social security income or if they are 70-1/2, they can provide their assets and they will be counted based on the RMD schedule for their age. Small owners don't have the same requirements, so I would suggest a guarantor, or a small, non-corporate landlord.

By the way, $3,600 income is not outrageous for $1,000 rent. Corporate landlords typically want 40x rent in annual income.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 pm

Discussions of dishonest behavior or bypassing the law is totally unacceptable. I removed a post and several replies which suggested filing for a benefit to show income - then not claiming the benefit.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by dknightd » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:18 pm

My guess is they are looking for signs of liquid assets. Not total assets. If the bank statements you provided show more than 3600 going in every month they would probably be happy. That along with a good credit rating should have done the trick. Does he have an account showing money coming in every month for three months?

Note to self: make sure you can demonstrate the ability to flow money when you no longer have a job. . .

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by adamthesmythe » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:28 pm

If it was a plain old ordinary company-managed apartment complex he would certainly have had this issue. They want to see regular income and are not interested in looking at assets.

As noted, establishing a regular income stream in some way should do the trick.

I would like to point out (partly in response to advocates of renting in retirement) that BUYING a house or condo for cash will not require proof of income.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:28 pm

dknightd wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:18 pm
My guess is they are looking for signs of liquid assets. Not total assets. If the bank statements you provided show more than 3600 going in every month they would probably be happy. That along with a good credit rating should have done the trick. Does he have an account showing money coming in every month for three months?

Note to self: make sure you can demonstrate the ability to flow money when you no longer have a job. . .
The money is all liquid currently. He doesn’t have transactions showing money going in every month. Since transfers from one account to another wouldn’t be income generation, maybe he needs to get to their magic number through interest, dividends, social security, etc.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by iamblessed » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:38 pm

Look for a private landlord show them you have 12k in your checking account. They will be happy to get you.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Elsebet » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:46 pm

Dave55 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:46 pm

Ron did you take the pre-pay offer to the manager of the apartment building? Or owner? I would find it hard to believe that the manager or owner would turn that down.

Dave
Mine wasn't exactly the same scenario but it's close. When I was in college I was barely scraping by and my mom took out a PLUS loan for $5k to help me get an apartment. I kept getting rejected for apartments because I was only making $8 an hour at my part-time internship, even after I offered to multiple times/places to prepay the entire lease up front. I even showed them bank statements to prove I had enough to prepay the lease, none of them would take it. My boyfriend decided we'd move in together and we finally found a place in a terrible neighborhood that accepted us.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:26 pm

My first reaction is to perhaps spend a few hundred dollars and consult with a lawyer who is familiar with the laws surrounding this rental. First, is what they're doing against the law. If not, then he's finished. If it is, then a response from the lawyer to their failure to comply with the law, mention of expected remedies and willingness to bring the matter to the attention of whoever might be the higher power over the renter should get their attention.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:08 pm

My (disabled) son had the same problem, when he wanted to rent his current apartment. Without a job but with assets and SSDI income (which did not completely cover the rent), the landlord would not accept him as a tenant, even if he would pre-pay for a year.

He/we got around it by co-signing the lease. While he paid the rent out of his own assets, the apartment management used our income history to qualify him even though we don't contribute a penny to his rent. Some three years later, we no longer have to co-sign even though his income still would not qualify him for initial entry, since he now has payment history with the apartment complex.

FWIW,

- Ron

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by celia » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:55 pm

I can understand why they don't accept a year's prepayment since that would be treating him differently than everyone else. They make the rules, but have to be consistent in applying them to everyone. So the big question is why they don't accept their own rule for those who don't work.
Ron Ronnerson wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:52 pm
They provided a disclosure that says they “do not discriminate on the basis of race, color...age...source of income...” Under a section titled “If you are not employed or have other sources of income, you may provide any of the following as applicable,” there is a bullet point that reads “the last three most current and consecutive bank statements showing liquid assets.”
That is for them to answer, else I would claim they were not applying their own rules fairly. You could also see what else is in that list of options for those who don't have wages. Maybe you need to qualify using more than one option from the list. (???)

In addition, does he know what his credit score is? That might disqualify him on its own even if he has everything else.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Frugal Al » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:04 am

What might be even more frustrating, given what the landlord considers income, and little or no consideration given to asset levels, is if FIL recently converted TIRA funds to a ROTH IRA, requiring no RMD's. I think these income rules need to be reconsidered by the lessors.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by pkjr » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:04 am

I run property management business. It is usually company’s policy if they take prepayments. Most attorneys will advise property managers not to take prepayments. Un-earned rent has to be escrowed cannot be spent. There are different rules in each state.

Once the company has a policy in place it needs to exercise/ apply the same rules with no exceptions to everyone to avoid fair housing laws issues.

I would tell you to get a familiy member with income to co-sign the lease.

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Ron Ronnerson
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:06 am

Thanks for the responses, everyone. My wife spoke with her dad last night and they began working on a plan to show income generation that could prove useful down the line.

Also, we got an email response back from the apartment about why bank statements are listed as an option of acceptable documentation. They said that is for self-employed people. The problem with that, though, is that bank statements are also listed as an option under the section for unemployed individuals on their disclosure.

I don’t think my father-in-law is interested in getting attorneys involved. While I totally appreciate the suggestion, it’s just not his way. He’s easy-going and will likely just move on rather than push back too hard against their decision.

This system of ignoring assets for senior housing just doesn’t make a lot of sense to us. Oh well.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by MathWizard » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:41 am

You don't mention you MIL, so I assume she is not in the picture. The benefit for a single man is less, so I'd take SS. If an annuity is not an option, a possible creative solution to turn assets into income would be:

He gives you $14K and your wife this year and just after the beginning of the year which is under gift exemption, and your wife $14K for a total of $56K to start, and $28K/yr thereafter.

You hire him in a business at $3500/month which provides meals on wheels, or something else he likes to do, and would for anyway. He's not going to sit on the couch until he takes SS.

You don't mention your wife's siblings. They might like this.

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Ron Ronnerson
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:50 am

MathWizard wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:41 am
You don't mention you MIL, so I assume she is not in the picture. The benefit for a single man is less, so I'd take SS. If an annuity is not an option, a possible creative solution to turn assets into income would be:

He gives you $14K and your wife this year and just after the beginning of the year which is under gift exemption, and your wife $14K for a total of $56K to start, and $28K/yr thereafter.

You hire him in a business at $3500/month which provides meals on wheels, or something else he likes to do, and would for anyway. He's not going to sit on the couch until he takes SS.

You don't mention your wife's siblings. They might like this.
Thanks for the suggestions and creative idea. Mother-in-law remarried 30 years ago and my wife doesn’t have siblings.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by Kenkat » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:58 am

bberris wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:58 pm
Kenkat wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:34 pm
It is a lot easier for assets to go elsewhere than income, so this is why you see this type of requirement. ..."
Easier? I think it would be a lot easier to gamble away one-month's pay than 1MM savings. If he has 12 months of rent in the bank that should be sufficient. The management is being ridiculous and probably breaking the law.
Yes, but one month’s pay comes again next month, while assets, once gone, are gone forever. That all said, I agree it’s a stupid policy. But I am going to guess that it’s not against the law either as long as the rule is applied consistently.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by michaeljc70 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:14 pm

bberris wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:58 pm
Kenkat wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:34 pm
It is a lot easier for assets to go elsewhere than income, so this is why you see this type of requirement. ..."
Easier? I think it would be a lot easier to gamble away one-month's pay than 1MM savings. If he has 12 months of rent in the bank that should be sufficient. The management is being ridiculous and probably breaking the law.
What law are they breaking????

Anyone can have someone deposit money in a bank account for 3 months, show the statements, and then pull the money out and give it back.

Assets can be illiquid and not usable for rent payments. It is a perfectly sensible rule made by people with a lot of experience in this.
Last edited by michaeljc70 on Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by JGoneRiding » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:32 pm

Ron wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:08 pm
My (disabled) son had the same problem, when he wanted to rent his current apartment. Without a job but with assets and SSDI income (which did not completely cover the rent), the landlord would not accept him as a tenant, even if he would pre-pay for a year.

He/we got around it by co-signing the lease. While he paid the rent out of his own assets, the apartment management used our income history to qualify him even though we don't contribute a penny to his rent. Some three years later, we no longer have to co-sign even though his income still would not qualify him for initial entry, since he now has payment history with the apartment complex.

FWIW,

- Ron
I am a LL and I wouldn't have accepted your son without the cosigner either. The reason is even if he prepared when the year ran out I could still be faced with eviction and if he trashed the apt he is judgment proof. I rent to college students. I had 3 really great boys in there for 3 years. I still made their parents sign lease extensions every year even though we had no issues.

So OP I would either offer to cosign (most likely problem solved) or contact the aging office for your county. If they got special tax consideration or subsidy for this property they most likely have to make reasonable accommodations. If however they are just advertising it to seniors and this is normal housing they can make their requirements what they want and just have to be consistent.

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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by jeffyscott » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Ron Ronnerson wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:28 pm
The money is all liquid currently. He doesn’t have transactions showing money going in every month. Since transfers from one account to another wouldn’t be income generation, maybe he needs to get to their magic number through interest, dividends, social security, etc.
When my daughter needed us to cosign, under something like "other income sources" on the application, I listed an amount per month and described it as "income from assets". I think I would maybe try that route, add up the dividends and interest on his accounts and list it as income.

I didn't even add it up in our case, I just used something like 2% of portfolio value, figuring that if it came to it, I could document that amount of dividends. In discussing with them, I explained that it was a little difficult to document this source of income in a way they were used to seeing but that I could send them a copy of IRA statement that would show enough assets to cover ~500 months of rent. I had pension income too, so not sure how much weight they gave to the assets and my purported income figure from that source. Had it not been my first year of retirement, I'd have been able to at least document "income" with tax forms as those will now show Roth conversions as income.
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Re: Father-in-law denied apartment for lack of income even though he has assets. What to do?

Post by cherijoh » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:34 pm

Ron Ronnerson wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:06 am
Thanks for the responses, everyone. My wife spoke with her dad last night and they began working on a plan to show income generation that could prove useful down the line.

Also, we got an email response back from the apartment about why bank statements are listed as an option of acceptable documentation. They said that is for self-employed people. The problem with that, though, is that bank statements are also listed as an option under the section for unemployed individuals on their disclosure.

I don’t think my father-in-law is interested in getting attorneys involved. While I totally appreciate the suggestion, it’s just not his way. He’s easy-going and will likely just move on rather than push back too hard against their decision.

This system of ignoring assets for senior housing just doesn’t make a lot of sense to us. Oh well.
Have you considered an immediate annuity with a fixed term that would give him $3600/month until he starts drawing social security? It has been my experience that once you establish a payment history they don't come back each year to prove that you have sufficient income. It looks like you can get them for as short as 3 years based on this link.

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