County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

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gilgamesh
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County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm

My county accepted ‘pre-payment’ of 2017 taxes in 2017 (We typically pay previous year’s property taxes in January of the following year). This helped, as I was able to get that tax deduction in my 2017 tax return.

This year, they are not accepting ‘pre-payment’ for 2018. Therefore I cannot show any property tax deduction. I will have no state or local taxes. I typically itemize deduction, so this is a major blow back. $10k of deduction just disappeared.

Any ideas?...if there are none, I’m sure I’ll end up getting the standard deduction of $24k (MFJ).

Thanks!

Edit: As the year’s were confusing I am adding this...

Go to my county website http://www.co.warren.oh.us/property_search/

Click on search by ‘Owner name search’ on the bottom of the page ...and then type in a common name like “Smith”

Choose any property and click on “tax info”...you will see 2017 taxes posted, 2018 taxes will be zero....we pay property taxes for the current year, January of the following year.
Last edited by gilgamesh on Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Longdog
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Longdog » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:47 pm

How much are your property taxes? When you previously itemized, if you capped your property tax at $10,000 would you still have exceeded the new standard deduction for your filing status, which you indicate is $24,000?
Steve

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:57 pm

Longdog wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:47 pm
How much are your property taxes? When you previously itemized, if you capped your property tax at $10,000 would you still have exceeded the new standard deduction for your filing status, which you indicate is $24,000?
2017 property taxes was around $13k. 2016 property taxes a bit less. So, in January 2017 I paid the 2016 taxes as I always do...the tax cuts passes and the county allowed me to pay 2017 taxes in December 2017 too. So for tax year 2017 (old tax law) I got property tax deduction for 2016 and 2017 (almost 26k)

I was planning to make $10k of 2018 property taxes this year...just called the county and they said they won’t accept any payments till January 2019.

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:58 pm

just be happy you were able to game the system once and got that extra deduction....

Gill
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Gill » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:02 pm

Don't you mean 2019 taxes?
Gill

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm

I think he means after the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek] became effective and eliminated the SALT deduction, he quickly paid 2018 property taxes in 2017 therefore able to take double the property tax deduction of 2017 AND 2018 property taxes on his 2017 return, however now it is 2018 and he has nothing to deduct and is trying to do the same and prepay 2019 taxes to have a deduction in 2018, but they wont let him. so he has nothing to deduct and will have to take the generous 24K standard deduction.

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unclescrooge
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by unclescrooge » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm

If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?

Gill
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Gill » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:30 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm
I think he means after the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek] became effective and eliminated the SALT deduction, he quickly paid 2018 property taxes in 2017 therefore able to take double the property tax deduction of 2017 AND 2018 property taxes on his 2017 return, however now it is 2018 and he has nothing to deduct and is trying to do the same and prepay 2019 taxes to have a deduction in 2018, but they wont let him. so he has nothing to deduct and will have to take the generous 24K standard deduction.
Yes, I understand that, but he said he was pre-paying 2018 taxes. I know he meant 2019 taxes.
Gill

Thegame14
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Thegame14 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:46 pm

Gill wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:30 pm
Thegame14 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm
I think he means after the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek] became effective and eliminated the SALT deduction, he quickly paid 2018 property taxes in 2017 therefore able to take double the property tax deduction of 2017 AND 2018 property taxes on his 2017 return, however now it is 2018 and he has nothing to deduct and is trying to do the same and prepay 2019 taxes to have a deduction in 2018, but they wont let him. so he has nothing to deduct and will have to take the generous 24K standard deduction.
Yes, I understand that, but he said he was pre-paying 2018 taxes. I know he meant 2019 taxes.
Gill
HE meant to say 2019

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:57 pm

Gill wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:02 pm
Don't you mean 2019 taxes?
Gill
No this has been confusing when I discussed it soon after [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek]. My county (and some others here), charge property taxes a year later. So typically we pay 2018 taxes in 2019. So, no it’s not 2019 taxes. Our 2018 taxes has not been assessed yet...out 2018 taxes will be assessed in 2019 January.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:59 pm

Thegame14 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm
I think he means after the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek] became effective and eliminated the SALT deduction, he quickly paid 2018 property taxes in 2017 therefore able to take double the property tax deduction of 2017 AND 2018 property taxes on his 2017 return, however now it is 2018 and he has nothing to deduct and is trying to do the same and prepay 2019 taxes to have a deduction in 2018, but they wont let him. so he has nothing to deduct and will have to take the generous 24K standard deduction.
No after [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek] I paid my 2017 taxes in December 2017 (it would otherwise be owed in January 2018... ounty quickly posted the 2017 property taxes in December 2017, so it was assessed in 2017 and was Legal)..I know it’s confusing to most, but that’s how our county works.

This year, they are waiting to assess 2018 taxes until January 2019 (like they;ve always done)....so, I have zero SALT tax deduction this year.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm

unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?

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CAsage
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by CAsage » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:12 pm

I have found it advantageous to pack deductions into alternate odd years - first big pack year was 2017, and I'm pushing everything I can into 2019 so as to take standard deduction in 2018. You might calculate it and see; there is no net benefit to just advancing it one year every year...
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gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 pm

Go to my county website http://www.co.warren.oh.us/property_search/

Click on search by ‘Owner name search’ on the bottom of the page ...and then type in a common name like “Smith”

Choose any property and click on “tax info”...you will see 2017 taxes posted, 2018 taxes will be zero.
Last edited by gilgamesh on Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

RustyShackleford
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by RustyShackleford » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?
Well, it's not just if they'll accept it, but whether the IRS later decides it isn't kosher. A lot of people like me, who prepaid their 2018 property taxes in 2017 - before the standard deduction increased to where it's no longer effectively deductible - may be in for a rude surprise. But hey, forgiveness is easier than permission. I'm lucky, because my deduction-bunching scheme, under the old regime, had me paying my 2015 and 2016 property taxes in 2016; therefore my 2017 property tax will show about the same as my 2016, and automated screening is less likely to realize I deducted 2017 and 2018's taxes in 2017 !

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:19 pm

CAsage wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:12 pm
I have found it advantageous to pack deductions into alternate odd years - first big pack year was 2017, and I'm pushing everything I can into 2019 so as to take standard deduction in 2018. You might calculate it and see; there is no net benefit to just advancing it one year every year...
That tactic won’t work with SALT taxes as it’s limited to $10k...you cannot pack more into a year.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:24 pm

RustyShackleford wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?
Well, it's not just if they'll accept it, but whether the IRS later decides it isn't kosher. A lot of people like me, who prepaid their 2018 property taxes in 2017 - before the standard deduction increased to where it's no longer effectively deductible - may be in for a rude surprise. But hey, forgiveness is easier than permission. I'm lucky, because my deduction-bunching scheme, under the old regime, had me paying my 2015 and 2016 property taxes in 2016; therefore my 2017 property tax will show about the same as my 2016, and automated screening is less likely to realize I deducted 2017 and 2018's taxes in 2017 !
I only had to pay my 2017 taxes in 2017 to double up on property taxe deduction prior to the new tax law...and I had already paid my 2016 taxes in January 2017. Thus I was able to double my deduction for 2017 tax year. My county even rushed to assess all 2017 taxes in December 2017 (typically it would have been January 2018) to be kosher with the tax law...so yeah that was great.

I was hoping to make a $10k payment this year for 2018, but they are not accepting it until they assess it in January 2019. I know my county is doing this weird, that’s why I think it will be ok if I just mail it.…after all I’m mailing my 2018 property taxes in December 2018 like most county’s do, right?

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unclescrooge
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by unclescrooge » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:40 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?
Hahaha, the government sending money back!

JBTX
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by JBTX » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:06 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?
That didn't work last year. Taxes had to be assessed and paid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.c ... -2017.html

I still don't know how it makes any difference. Do you have over $14k in other deductions to exceed $24k this year?

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:28 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 pm
Go to my county website http://www.co.warren.oh.us/property_search/

Click on search by ‘Owner name search’ on the bottom of the page ...and then type in a common name like “Smith”

Choose any property and click on “tax info”...you will see 2017 taxes posted, 2018 taxes will be zero.
You have to be patient. The reason that those 2018 values are zero is that the county hasn't received some of the information it needs (from the state?) to calculate the actual tax. That almost always happens in the last week of the year, but there is no guarantee.

Keep checking that page for the rest of the month. The day that you see 2018 taxes posted I expect that your county will allow you to pay them.

rkhusky
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by rkhusky » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:52 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:24 pm
I was hoping to make a $10k payment this year for 2018, but they are not accepting it until they assess it in January 2019. I know my county is doing this weird, that’s why I think it will be ok if I just mail it.…after all I’m mailing my 2018 property taxes in December 2018 like most county’s do, right?
In our state, property is assessed in January. Tax bills are mailed out around July 1 and Dec 1, which are due around Sept 1 and Feb 15, respectively. These tax bills are based on the assessment made earlier in the year in January.

I find it odd that your state would base your tax bill for 2018 on an assessment from January 2019, rather than the assessment from January 2018.

jucor
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by jucor » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:46 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:24 pm

I was hoping to make a $10k payment this year for 2018, but they are not accepting it until they assess it in January 2019. I know my county is doing this weird, that’s why I think it will be ok if I just mail it.…after all I’m mailing my 2018 property taxes in December 2018 like most county’s do, right?
In my county taxes are assessed in May, payments due 50% in June, 50% in September. There are many different dates and methods of collection.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by samsoes » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:22 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:57 pm
No this has been confusing when I discussed it soon after [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek]. My county (and some others here), charge property taxes a year later. So typically we pay 2018 taxes in 2019. So, no it’s not 2019 taxes. Our 2018 taxes has not been assessed yet...out 2018 taxes will be assessed in 2019 January.
Thegame14 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm
I think he means after the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act --admin LadyGeek] became effective and eliminated the SALT deduction, he quickly paid 2018 property taxes in 2017 therefore able to take double the property tax deduction of 2017 AND 2018 property taxes on his 2017 return, however now it is 2018 and he has nothing to deduct and is trying to do the same and prepay 2019 taxes to have a deduction in 2018, but they wont let him. so he has nothing to deduct and will have to take the generous 24K standard deduction.
Are you referring to the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 (TCJA), enacted by the 115th Congress late last year?
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gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:32 am

This is what the treasurer’s site says (just saw that)...http://www.co.warren.oh.us/treasurer/



THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.

PROPOSED REAL ESTATE BILL MAILING DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019
REAL ESTATE DUE DATE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2019

(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:02 am

JBTX wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:06 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?
That didn't work last year. Taxes had to be assessed and paid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.c ... -2017.html

I still don't know how it makes any difference. Do you have over $14k in other deductions to exceed $24k this year?
I was aware of last year’s announcements...that pertained to pre-paying the following year’s property taxes. All I’m doing is paying the current year’s property taxes without having to wait for the following year.

I’ll check again on my itemized deduction....when I quickly checked it a few months ago, it looked like I might go beyond 24k...I’ll report back.
Last edited by gilgamesh on Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:04 am

rkhusky wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:52 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:24 pm
I was hoping to make a $10k payment this year for 2018, but they are not accepting it until they assess it in January 2019. I know my county is doing this weird, that’s why I think it will be ok if I just mail it.…after all I’m mailing my 2018 property taxes in December 2018 like most county’s do, right?
In our state, property is assessed in January. Tax bills are mailed out around July 1 and Dec 1, which are due around Sept 1 and Feb 15, respectively. These tax bills are based on the assessment made earlier in the year in January.

I find it odd that your state would base your tax bill for 2018 on an assessment from January 2019, rather than the assessment from January 2018.
Looks like it’s the entire start?


THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.

PROPOSED REAL ESTATE BILL MAILING DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019
REAL ESTATE DUE DATE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2019

(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:08 am

THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.

PROPOSED REAL ESTATE BILL MAILING DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019
REAL ESTATE DUE DATE: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2019

(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).

_————————————————————————————_

The note at the bottom of the county treasurer site (which I’ve highlited in blue) seems to imply I probably could mail it in advance...

Chip
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:12 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:32 am
THE TREASURERS OFFICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTING ANY “PRE-PAYMENT” 2018 REAL ESTATE TAXES PAYABLE IN 2019 DUE TO THE OHIO ATTORNEY GENERALS DECISION IN DECEMBER, 2017.
That's interesting, and a "new" thing. I briefly tried to find the Ohio AG decision but was unsuccessful.

I wonder if they are in fact saying that they won't accept an estimated payment without an actual tax bill. That I can understand, and is perhaps what the AG said. If that is the case then you still may be able to pay near the end of the year once the numbers are finalized. As I'm sure you know, property taxes are paid in arrears in OH, so the 2/19 bill is for 1/2 of the taxes due based on ownership in 2018.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Spirit Rider » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am

Under IRS guidance, if you are not billed for the property taxes in 2018, you can not take a deduction for 2018.

If you are not being billed until January 25, 2019, it doesn't matter when you send the check. It will not be deductible for 2018.

You can only deduct a payment for a liability that exists is 2018. The jurisdiction is clearly stating unequivocally that liability does not exist until 2019.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:51 am

Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am
Under IRS guidance, if you are not billed for the property taxes in 2018, you can not take a deduction for 2018.

If you are not being billed until January 25, 2019, it doesn't matter when you send the check. It will not be deductible for 2018.

You can only deduct a payment for a liability that exists is 2018. The jurisdiction is clearly stating unequivocally that liability does not exist until 2019.
Thank you!

I’m however thinking this is a suggestion, no?...otherwise, why include it there?
(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).

cherijoh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by cherijoh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:11 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm
My county accepted ‘pre-payment’ of 2017 taxes in 2017 (We typically pay previous year’s property taxes in January of the following year). This helped, as I was able to get that tax deduction in my 2017 tax return.

This year, they are not accepting ‘pre-payment’ for 2018. Therefore I cannot show any property tax deduction. I will have no state or local taxes. I typically itemize deduction, so this is a major blow back. $10k of deduction just disappeared.

Any ideas?...if there are none, I’m sure I’ll end up getting the standard deduction of $24k (MFJ).

Thanks!

Edit: As the year’s were confusing I am adding this...

Go to my county website http://www.co.warren.oh.us/property_search/

Click on search by ‘Owner name search’ on the bottom of the page ...and then type in a common name like “Smith”

Choose any property and click on “tax info”...you will see 2017 taxes posted, 2018 taxes will be zero....we pay property taxes for the current year, January of the following year.
You seem to have gotten bogged down in the weeds. Are you even sure that being able to deduct your 2018 property taxes would have impacted your taxable income and the amount of tax you owe?

What are your itemized deductions without the property taxes?
Mortgage interest?
State and local income taxes?
Charitable deductions?
Medical expenses?
Other allowable expenses?

You might find that the $10K cap in SALT only would have only let you deduct a portion of your property tax after considering your state and local income taxes.

You might also find that your other itemized deductions fall below the new larger standard deduction. Do your remaining itemized deductions exceed the new standard deduction? (i.e. the remaining unused portion of the $10K SALT deduction would have reduced your taxable income). Or did your other itemized deductions fall short of the new larger standard deduction? (in which case only a portion of the unused portion of the $10K SALT deduction would have reduced your taxable income).

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teen persuasion
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by teen persuasion » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:14 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:51 am
Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am
Under IRS guidance, if you are not billed for the property taxes in 2018, you can not take a deduction for 2018.

If you are not being billed until January 25, 2019, it doesn't matter when you send the check. It will not be deductible for 2018.

You can only deduct a payment for a liability that exists is 2018. The jurisdiction is clearly stating unequivocally that liability does not exist until 2019.
Thank you!

I’m however thinking this is a suggestion, no?...otherwise, why include it there?
(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).
Doesn't sound like a suggestion. It sounds like they are trying to clarify a different issue - when payment is "postmarked". With changes in the postal system, things run slower now. They are saying that dropping the bill at your local PO today does not get postmarked "today", it can take several days to be officially postmarked by the regional PO. Thus you have to bake several extra days in for reaching the deadline, whenever that actually is. :annoyed

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by niceguy7376 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:19 am

If you were able to take deduction this year instead of next year somehow (post it and take deduction etc), you still need to do the same type of process every year.

If you can wait and follow the recommendations of your government, you only will skip this year and will have clean deductions every other year.

I dont know why it is a big deal.

Just like some folks do 2018 IRA contributions in 2019 jan while some do 2019 contributions in 2019 jan. Everyone did contribute to IRA.

Will you still have other deductions upto the limits of new tax rules?

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Kenkat
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Kenkat » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am

Do you have any idea what the “Ohio Attorney Generals (sic) Decision” was? I live in Hamilton County, Ohio and I have been using what is called the Tresurer’s Optional Payment program to pre-pay my taxes due in January 2019. This is a program specific to Hamilton County but they are collecting taxes due in January 2019 now as part of this program.

gilgamesh
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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:55 am

teen persuasion wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:14 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:51 am
Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am
Under IRS guidance, if you are not billed for the property taxes in 2018, you can not take a deduction for 2018.

If you are not being billed until January 25, 2019, it doesn't matter when you send the check. It will not be deductible for 2018.

You can only deduct a payment for a liability that exists is 2018. The jurisdiction is clearly stating unequivocally that liability does not exist until 2019.
Thank you!

I’m however thinking this is a suggestion, no?...otherwise, why include it there?
(NOTE: mail dropped into the local Post Offices is no longer “Postmarked” by the local Post Offices – it could be several days before your envelope is “Postmarked” by the Regional Post Office).
Doesn't sound like a suggestion. It sounds like they are trying to clarify a different issue - when payment is "postmarked". With changes in the postal system, things run slower now. They are saying that dropping the bill at your local PO today does not get postmarked "today", it can take several days to be officially postmarked by the regional PO. Thus you have to bake several extra days in for reaching the deadline, whenever that actually is. :annoyed
That makes sense...

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:58 am

niceguy7376 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:19 am
If you were able to take deduction this year instead of next year somehow (post it and take deduction etc), you still need to do the same type of process every year.

If you can wait and follow the recommendations of your government, you only will skip this year and will have clean deductions every other year.

I dont know why it is a big deal.

Just like some folks do 2018 IRA contributions in 2019 jan while some do 2019 contributions in 2019 jan. Everyone did contribute to IRA.

Will you still have other deductions upto the limits of new tax rules?
Because the SALT deduction is limited to $10k...so, I can’t skip my $10k deduction and take $20k next year. Whatever I don’t deduct this year is gone.

Yes it will be for one year and they I can resume normally...

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:02 am

cherijoh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:11 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm
My county accepted ‘pre-payment’ of 2017 taxes in 2017 (We typically pay previous year’s property taxes in January of the following year). This helped, as I was able to get that tax deduction in my 2017 tax return.

This year, they are not accepting ‘pre-payment’ for 2018. Therefore I cannot show any property tax deduction. I will have no state or local taxes. I typically itemize deduction, so this is a major blow back. $10k of deduction just disappeared.

Any ideas?...if there are none, I’m sure I’ll end up getting the standard deduction of $24k (MFJ).

Thanks!

Edit: As the year’s were confusing I am adding this...

Go to my county website http://www.co.warren.oh.us/property_search/

Click on search by ‘Owner name search’ on the bottom of the page ...and then type in a common name like “Smith”

Choose any property and click on “tax info”...you will see 2017 taxes posted, 2018 taxes will be zero....we pay property taxes for the current year, January of the following year.
You seem to have gotten bogged down in the weeds. Are you even sure that being able to deduct your 2018 property taxes would have impacted your taxable income and the amount of tax you owe?

What are your itemized deductions without the property taxes?
Mortgage interest?
State and local income taxes?
Charitable deductions?
Medical expenses?
Other allowable expenses?

You might find that the $10K cap in SALT only would have only let you deduct a portion of your property tax after considering your state and local income taxes.

You might also find that your other itemized deductions fall below the new larger standard deduction. Do your remaining itemized deductions exceed the new standard deduction? (i.e. the remaining unused portion of the $10K SALT deduction would have reduced your taxable income). Or did your other itemized deductions fall short of the new larger standard deduction? (in which case only a portion of the unused portion of the $10K SALT deduction would have reduced your taxable income).
I am aware of these...

I quickly checked a few months ago and it looked like I will pass $24k in deduction if I itemize...I won’t lose the entire $10k but some parts of it...but, I will confirm later.

I do have a large mortgage and I think my business loan (interest payments) fall into itemized deduction also. I’m fully aware of the increase in standard deduction and had looked it up. However, as interest rates are decreasing I don’t know whether it’ll definitely add up to over $24k.
Last edited by gilgamesh on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:03 am

Kenkat wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am
Do you have any idea what the “Ohio Attorney Generals (sic) Decision” was? I live in Hamilton County, Ohio and I have been using what is called the Tresurer’s Optional Payment program to pre-pay my taxes due in January 2019. This is a program specific to Hamilton County but they are collecting taxes due in January 2019 now as part of this program.
No I did not look that up...sounds like your county is doing it right. If mine did the same, I wouldn’t even have bothered asking this question.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:09 am

Kenkat wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am
Do you have any idea what the “Ohio Attorney Generals (sic) Decision” was? I live in Hamilton County, Ohio and I have been using what is called the Tresurer’s Optional Payment program to pre-pay my taxes due in January 2019. This is a program specific to Hamilton County but they are collecting taxes due in January 2019 now as part of this program.
Ok! I called my county to ask what “Ohio Attorney General’s” rulings were....these phone operators don’t necessarily have the full knowledge. She just said, they ruled on what it says - that they cannot accept “pre-payment”. Then I asked why some counties in Ohio are accepting it and they can’t - she said, it’s because they don’t have that system set-up.

Then I asked what’ll happen to checks mailed this year, she said it will be returned.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Kenkat » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:47 am

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:09 am
Kenkat wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:52 am
Do you have any idea what the “Ohio Attorney Generals (sic) Decision” was? I live in Hamilton County, Ohio and I have been using what is called the Tresurer’s Optional Payment program to pre-pay my taxes due in January 2019. This is a program specific to Hamilton County but they are collecting taxes due in January 2019 now as part of this program.
Ok! I called my county to ask what “Ohio Attorney General’s” rulings were....these phone operators don’t necessarily have the full knowledge. She just said, they ruled on what it says - that they cannot accept “pre-payment”. Then I asked why some counties in Ohio are accepting it and they can’t - she said, it’s because they don’t have that system set-up.

Then I asked what’ll happen to checks mailed this year, she said it will be returned.
I wonder if they mean they don’t have an escrow system set up? Here is what I am doing in Hamilton County:

http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/gover ... _p_program

I’d try emailing the Warren County Treasurer and asking for a more detailed explanation. His email address is at the bottom of the Treasurer’s web site. I’ve had pretty good luck emailing elected officials; they tend to be responsive as they want to be re-elected! :D

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by JBTX » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:25 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:02 am
cherijoh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:11 am
gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm
My county accepted ‘pre-payment’ of 2017 taxes in 2017 (We typically pay previous year’s property taxes in January of the following year). This helped, as I was able to get that tax deduction in my 2017 tax return.

This year, they are not accepting ‘pre-payment’ for 2018. Therefore I cannot show any property tax deduction. I will have no state or local taxes. I typically itemize deduction, so this is a major blow back. $10k of deduction just disappeared.

Any ideas?...if there are none, I’m sure I’ll end up getting the standard deduction of $24k (MFJ).

Thanks!

Edit: As the year’s were confusing I am adding this...

Go to my county website http://www.co.warren.oh.us/property_search/

Click on search by ‘Owner name search’ on the bottom of the page ...and then type in a common name like “Smith”

Choose any property and click on “tax info”...you will see 2017 taxes posted, 2018 taxes will be zero....we pay property taxes for the current year, January of the following year.
You seem to have gotten bogged down in the weeds. Are you even sure that being able to deduct your 2018 property taxes would have impacted your taxable income and the amount of tax you owe?

What are your itemized deductions without the property taxes?
Mortgage interest?
State and local income taxes?
Charitable deductions?
Medical expenses?
Other allowable expenses?

You might find that the $10K cap in SALT only would have only let you deduct a portion of your property tax after considering your state and local income taxes.

You might also find that your other itemized deductions fall below the new larger standard deduction. Do your remaining itemized deductions exceed the new standard deduction? (i.e. the remaining unused portion of the $10K SALT deduction would have reduced your taxable income). Or did your other itemized deductions fall short of the new larger standard deduction? (in which case only a portion of the unused portion of the $10K SALT deduction would have reduced your taxable income).
I am aware of these...

I quickly checked a few months ago and it looked like I will pass $24k in deduction if I itemize...I won’t lose the entire $10k but some parts of it...but, I will confirm later.

I do have a large mortgage and I think my business loan (interest payments) fall into itemized deduction also. I’m fully aware of the increase in standard deduction and had looked it up. However, as interest rates are decreasing I don’t know whether it’ll definitely add up to over $24k.
Business loan interest is a business expense on schedule C. It isn't an itemized deduction.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by JBTX » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:31 pm

Maybe this year you deduct your state income tax and sales tax. Does that get you close to $10,000? Next year do the property tax.

Edit: apparently you can only take sales tax OR state income tax in any particular year, so I guess that won't work.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:16 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am
Under IRS guidance, if you are not billed for the property taxes in 2018, you can not take a deduction for 2018.

If you are not being billed until January 25, 2019, it doesn't matter when you send the check. It will not be deductible for 2018.

You can only deduct a payment for a liability that exists is 2018. The jurisdiction is clearly stating unequivocally that liability does not exist until 2019.
Is this something new from the IRS or the same thing we were debating here at this time last year? i.e. estimates vs. assessments.

While the bills for many OH counties aren't mailed until late January, I believe that the OP can obtain an exact copy of that bill in advance by going to the county tax office once the final numbers are available (typically the last week in December). At least that is the way it has worked for me in the past. It is my belief that if the OP pays the bill then, before Jan. 1, that is a legal deduction for 2018. Am I missing something?

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Spirit Rider » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm

Chip wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:16 pm
Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am
Under IRS guidance, if you are not billed for the property taxes in 2018, you can not take a deduction for 2018.

If you are not being billed until January 25, 2019, it doesn't matter when you send the check. It will not be deductible for 2018.

You can only deduct a payment for a liability that exists is 2018. The jurisdiction is clearly stating unequivocally that liability does not exist until 2019.
Is this something new from the IRS or the same thing we were debating here at this time last year? i.e. estimates vs. assessments.

While the bills for many OH counties aren't mailed until late January, I believe that the OP can obtain an exact copy of that bill in advance by going to the county tax office once the final numbers are available (typically the last week in December). At least that is the way it has worked for me in the past. It is my belief that if the OP pays the bill then, before Jan. 1, that is a legal deduction for 2018. Am I missing something?
People were playing fast and lose last year. You have to incur a liability with an opportunity to pay. This jurisdiction is clearly indicating that liability does not attach until they bill you and they will not be accepting payments before then. It couldn't be more clear. There is a big difference between paying before it is due and paying before it is owed

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 pm

My mortgage interest and investment interests alone were a bit over $20k each year for 2016 and 2017. If I were to take the $10k SALT deduction for 2018 my itemized deduction will be around $30k plus gift/charity.

So, yeah I’ll definitely be losing out by having to take the $24k standard deduction. A loss of $6k plus gift/charity.

I’ll be sending that email to the treasurer...

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by J G Bankerton » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:50 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:00 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm
If you drop a check in the mail, can't you deduct it based on when the letter was post marked?
That’s what I am hoping....I might do that as what’s the worst that can happen. Either they won’t cash it, or send it back....right?
If you mail it December 31 they won't cash it until 2019. Sounds like a question for tax court. In NJ towns tries all kinds of things and the IRS shot them down.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by Chip » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:06 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 pm
People were playing fast and lose last year. You have to incur a liability with an opportunity to pay. This jurisdiction is clearly indicating that liability does not attach until they bill you and they will not be accepting payments before then. It couldn't be more clear. There is a big difference between paying before it is due and paying before it is owed
I understand that there has to be a liability. There currently isn't one for the OP, as the state hasn't provided the info to the county to enable them to calculate the tax. I have had discussions over the years with my county's tax office (also in Ohio) about this very issue. But there WILL BE a liability once they have that information, which normally happens in the last week of the calendar year.

I think the "fast and loose" thing here is Warren county's wording on their web site. It is correct that you can't pay the bill now, because the bill does not currently exist. But when it does exist the tax will be owed and I fully expect that the OP will be able to pay it. I believe that will occur in late December.

We will see.

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by libralibra » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:25 pm

gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 pm
My mortgage interest and investment interests alone were a bit over $20k each year for 2016 and 2017. If I were to take the $10k SALT deduction for 2018 my itemized deduction will be around $30k plus gift/charity.

So, yeah I’ll definitely be losing out by having to take the $24k standard deduction. A loss of $6k plus gift/charity.

I’ll be sending that email to the treasurer...
Not sure what you are talking about. You aren't losing a thing, since you got this year's deduction last year, and you will get next year's deduction next year. If you do what you are saying, we'll just be seeing this thread again next Dec 🙄

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Re: County not accepting 2018 property taxes in 2018 - need help with ideas.

Post by gilgamesh » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:27 pm

libralibra wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:25 pm
gilgamesh wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:42 pm
My mortgage interest and investment interests alone were a bit over $20k each year for 2016 and 2017. If I were to take the $10k SALT deduction for 2018 my itemized deduction will be around $30k plus gift/charity.

So, yeah I’ll definitely be losing out by having to take the $24k standard deduction. A loss of $6k plus gift/charity.

I’ll be sending that email to the treasurer...
Not sure what you are talking about. You aren't losing a thing, since you got this year's deduction last year, and you will get next year's deduction next year. If you do what you are saying, we'll just be seeing this thread again next Dec 🙄
Will I gain anything, if my county assess the 2018 property taxes in December and invoices their constituents in December 2018 and continue to do so (repeat 2017)?...I think answering that question should clear things up for you
Last edited by gilgamesh on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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