How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

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b0B
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by b0B » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:00 am

b0B wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 pm
It took 20 years, from age late 20s to late 40s, with salary from $35k to $80k, to hit $1M in investments. (Also bought a cheap house, paid off.) Married with three kids (one income).

It absolutely can be done.

I expect to hit $2M with salary is still being under $100k.
The house was bought and paid off by early 30s with salary ranging $35k to $40k.

longinvest
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by longinvest » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:00 am

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:47 am
longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:37 am
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:41 am
maroon wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 am
Those of you suggesting to save $22K/year, or 30% of your gross pay, or 1/3 of your salary, etc. - these are great suggestions, but hard to implement at lower income levels. For example, it's hard to save $22K/year when earning $35K/year. I think it's misguided to say people who aren't millionaires (or close to it) by a certain timeframe have made "big" mistakes.
maroon,

1) At 35K per year, you only need to save 11K in order to save 30+%.

2) At 35K per year, taxes take out closer to 20+% of the gross income.

3) So, at 35K per year, even after saving 11K aka 30+%, the amount of gross income available for spending is around 40% to 50%.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

Such a post can be harmful to young median income members who will be discouraged by the daunting level of savings it calls for.

The reality is that a worker with a 35K salary doesn't need to save 30% of his income and accumulate 1 million dollars to retire with dignity.
longinvest,

1) My answer is about saving 30+% of gross income. It has nothing to do with reaching 1 million.

2) I do not believe in saving for retirement. Saving for retirement is only viable for folks that will be fully-employed continuously until retirement age.

3) For FI purposes, the person earning 35K per year and saving 11K per year only need 25X to 33X aka 265K or 363K in order to FI. It is much less than 1 million.

KlangFool
Dear KlangFool,

When I look at the raw numbers, I see that you're asking someone with a 35K salary to live like a pauper on less than 20K net per year. This is asking that person to live in misery. In developed countries like the US and Canada, social programs (like Social Security) have been put in place to avoid such hardship for median income people. As a consequence, the savings requirements of median and lower income workers, to preserve their standard of living in retirement, is greatly reduced (and even eliminated for minimum-wage workers).

Our developed countries do provide financial support when one loses his job as well as continuous education allowing people who lose their job and workers who wish to change their career to develop new marketable abilities. Living in misery by making abstraction of societal support would be a mistake for median and lower income people.

I stand by my opinion that your suggestions can be harmful to young members with median and possibly lower incomes.

Best regards,

longinvest
Last edited by longinvest on Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bogleheads investment philosophy | Lifelong Portfolio: 25% each of (domestic / international) stocks / domestic (nominal / inflation-indexed) long-term bonds | VCN/VXC/VLB/ZRR

DrivingFun
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by DrivingFun » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:02 am

pdavi21 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:05 pm
EDIT: If you can't save 1,800 a month (assuming you make 50-100k per year), you need to seriously look at your expenses. Biggest thing you can do is buying a cheap house if your job is stable or getting roommates. You may want to look into cooking meals, buying used goods, learning to fix things on your own, reducing travel, etc.
I bet you're making a lot more than 50k/yr, hence why you think it's easy. 50k/yr is probably like 3000k/month without 401k contributions. You're saying a person should easily be able to save something like 60% of their take home without even considering 401k contributions. That someone probably has student loans to pay back, and every other expense (shelter, food, transportation, health, etc.). Sometimes this message board amazes me.

KlangFool
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:04 am

CyclingDuo wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am
longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:37 am
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:41 am
maroon wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 am
Those of you suggesting to save $22K/year, or 30% of your gross pay, or 1/3 of your salary, etc. - these are great suggestions, but hard to implement at lower income levels. For example, it's hard to save $22K/year when earning $35K/year. I think it's misguided to say people who aren't millionaires (or close to it) by a certain timeframe have made "big" mistakes.
maroon,

1) At 35K per year, you only need to save 11K in order to save 30+%.

2) At 35K per year, taxes take out closer to 20+% of the gross income.

3) So, at 35K per year, even after saving 11K aka 30+%, the amount of gross income available for spending is around 40% to 50%.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

Such a post can be harmful to young median income members who will be discouraged by the daunting level of savings it calls for.

The reality is that a worker with a 35K salary doesn't need to save 30% of his income and accumulate 1 million dollars to retire with dignity. He only needs between $250,000 and $300,000 at age 65 in addition to his Social Security pension which he'll delay until age 70 to preserve his standard of living in retirement. See my previous post for detailed calculations.

Targeting a "number" is generally a bad idea. A better approach is to use a variable savings rate (VSR) that adapts to the worker's situation, retirement horizon, and portfolio balance every year. See this thread for details: The Variable Savings Rate (VSR) -- an accumulation-time prelude to VPW.
Agree that daunting numbers can indeed scare off young workers and those earning lower salaries. Tossing out figures and statements such as "make sure you max out your 401k and your Roth IRA every year", or "make sure you save 30% of your income" to those on lower salaries could indeed be detrimental. Call it "saving beyond your means".

Klang comes from a culture of super savers...

http://time.com/money/4140460/super-sav ... t-savings/
https://www.moneyunder30.com/percentage ... very-month

...and he has oft stated his goals of saving the equivalent of his annual expenses each year until he hits his number. Nothing wrong with that, but as you point out longinvest - that level of savings is not necessary for everyone and could easily put somebody upside down with regard to their household cash flow.
CyclingDuo,

<<Nothing wrong with that, but as you point out longinvest - that level of savings is not necessary for everyone and could easily put somebody upside down with regard to their household cash flow.>>

The saving rate necessary is highly dependent on the individual's employment situation. My industry/career/job has a severe age discrimination problem. Many of my peers are permanently unemployed or under-employed in their 40s and 50s. So, it is unrealistic to assume that I and my peers will be fully-employed continuously for 30 to 40 years.

KlangFool

b0B
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by b0B » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:05 am

b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:00 am
b0B wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 pm
It took 20 years, from age late 20s to late 40s, with salary from $35k to $80k, to hit $1M in investments. (Also bought a cheap house, paid off.) Married with three kids (one income).

It absolutely can be done.

I expect to hit $2M with salary is still being under $100k.
The house was bought and paid off by early 30s with salary ranging $35k to $40k.
One regret I have is that I look back on those early years and think about how much of that $35k salary I was wasting. Young people often make bad decisions.

I could have paid off the house sooner, and saved more, and be looking at earlier retirement.

kjvmartin
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by kjvmartin » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:07 am

MRMN wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:27 pm
barnaclebob wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:10 pm
If you live in a city on the west or east coast, it will be a long road. Live in Wichita? then you are sitting pretty. So few people make it because most people don't make much more than what their expenses cover even if they don't spend extravagantly. Its always easy to blame others' lack of savings on buying new trucks, big houses, and eating out, but that's not always what happens.

As far as i know the only indicator if someone will be wealthy is how wealthy the family they are born into is. You can definitely move up and down in class but its much easier to stay in the winners ring than to break into it.
-1

Seems to be the antithesis of this entire blog!

My dad’s business failed leading up and thru the Great Recession, and he didn’t start saving for retirement until 2018. I earned more money my senior year of high school working part time as a cashier then working as a concrete laborer than my mother did that same year. That last fact got me some decent financial aid (yes, nothing is free from the government) and paid my own way thru private college with minimal loans because I paid a lot in cash by working on campus, seasonally during the winter, and every waking minute in the summers. I wasn’t born into wealth.

I’m now mid-30’s, net worth north of 300k between my house, 401k, and savings. I live simply, pay for 2 kids in daycare, on pace for millionaire status, all because I worked hard and didn’t care what I was “born into.”
You've achieved a great deal and I think it's commendable and inspirational. It sounds like you were born into a dual parent family with at least some degree of stability and parental support. So, though you may not have been raised by Bill & Melinda Gates, there have been at least some benefits and opportunities at play in your life helping you to get to where you are.

b0B
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by b0B » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:12 am

b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:05 am
b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:00 am
b0B wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:42 pm
It took 20 years, from age late 20s to late 40s, with salary from $35k to $80k, to hit $1M in investments. (Also bought a cheap house, paid off.) Married with three kids (one income).

It absolutely can be done.

I expect to hit $2M with salary is still being under $100k.
The house was bought and paid off by early 30s with salary ranging $35k to $40k.
One regret I have is that I look back on those early years and think about how much of that $35k salary I was wasting. Young people often make bad decisions.

I could have paid off the house sooner, and saved more, and be looking at earlier retirement.
It's just that after being a graduate student living on $6k per year, a $35k salary seemed so gigantic, and I didn't handle my finances as prudently as I should have.

KlangFool
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:13 am

longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:00 am
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:47 am
longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:37 am
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:41 am
maroon wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 am
Those of you suggesting to save $22K/year, or 30% of your gross pay, or 1/3 of your salary, etc. - these are great suggestions, but hard to implement at lower income levels. For example, it's hard to save $22K/year when earning $35K/year. I think it's misguided to say people who aren't millionaires (or close to it) by a certain timeframe have made "big" mistakes.
maroon,

1) At 35K per year, you only need to save 11K in order to save 30+%.

2) At 35K per year, taxes take out closer to 20+% of the gross income.

3) So, at 35K per year, even after saving 11K aka 30+%, the amount of gross income available for spending is around 40% to 50%.

KlangFool
KlangFool,

Such a post can be harmful to young median income members who will be discouraged by the daunting level of savings it calls for.

The reality is that a worker with a 35K salary doesn't need to save 30% of his income and accumulate 1 million dollars to retire with dignity.
longinvest,

1) My answer is about saving 30+% of gross income. It has nothing to do with reaching 1 million.

2) I do not believe in saving for retirement. Saving for retirement is only viable for folks that will be fully-employed continuously until retirement age.

3) For FI purposes, the person earning 35K per year and saving 11K per year only need 25X to 33X aka 265K or 363K in order to FI. It is much less than 1 million.

KlangFool
Dear KlangFool,

When I look at the raw numbers, I see that you're asking someone with a 35K salary to live like a pauper on less than 20K net per year. This is asking that person to live in misery. In developed countries like the US and Canada, social programs (like Social Security) have been put in place to avoid such hardship for median income people. As a consequence, the savings requirements of median and lower income workers, to preserve their standard of living in retirement, is greatly reduced (and even eliminated for minimum-wage workers).

Our developed countries do provide financial support when one loses his job as well as continuous education allowing people who lose their job and workers to wish to change their career to develop new marketable abilities. Living in misery by making abstraction of societal support would be a mistake for median and lower income people.

I stand by my opinion that your suggestions can be harmful to young members with median and possibly lower incomes.

Best regards,

longinvest
longinvest,

<<When I look at the raw numbers, I see that you're asking someone with a 35K salary to live like a pauper on less than 20K net per year.>>

It is actually worse than that. Taxes should be around 20% ~ 7K. So, the annual expense = 35K - 11K -7K = 17K per year.

<< This is asking that person to live in misery. >>

The US median household income is around 60K. The median household size is 2.6 persons. So, 17K per person per year is close to US median living standard.

If you believe 17K per person per year is living in misery, this means that the median US person is living in misery.

KlangFool

stoptothink
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by stoptothink » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:20 am

My 20's were a completely lost decade financially. After losing a lot of my life's savings in the real estate crash and then the rest in a divorce (after paying $150k+ out of pocket for my ex's undergrad and dental school), at 30 I found myself struggling to finish my PhD dissertation and with a net worth close to $0. I remarried at 32, my wife was a single mom with a negative net worth and was making ~$11hr. Now at 37, our household networth is in the mid-upper 6-figures and (barring another crash) will hit $1M about the time I hit 40 (wife will be 35). I didn't hit 6-figures in income until 2yrs ago and it is barely past that now, my wife (as of last year) now makes 4x what she did when we met.

There is no secret. LBYM and stay the course. Our household income has nearly tripled in the last 5yrs, but our household spending has remained virtually the same. It hasn't been "hard", we are just comfortable living a lifestyle which is far below our means and the rest is saved/invested.

longinvest
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by longinvest » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:29 am

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:20 am
My 20's were a completely lost decade financially. After losing a lot of my life's savings in the real estate crash and then the rest in a divorce (after paying $150k+ out of pocket for my ex's undergrad and dental school), at 30 I found myself struggling to finish my PhD dissertation and with a net worth close to $0. I remarried at 32, my wife was a single mom with a negative net worth and was making ~$11hr. Now at 37, our household networth is in the mid-upper 6-figures and (barring another crash) will hit $1M about the time I hit 40 (wife will be 35). I didn't hit 6-figures in income until 2yrs ago and it is barely past that now, my wife (as of last year) now makes 4x what she did when we met.

There is no secret. LBYM and stay the course. Our household income has nearly tripled in the last 5yrs, but our household spending has remained virtually the same. It hasn't been "hard", we are just comfortable living a lifestyle which is far below our means and the rest is saved/invested.
I simply don't believe this, unless there's some undisclosed windfall. It would have required an inflation-adjusted $6,500 monthly investment to grow a 100% US stocks portfolio from $0 to $800,000 from January 2012 to October 2018 (see Portfolio Visualizer). This is $78,000 in annual investments.
Last edited by longinvest on Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bogleheads investment philosophy | Lifelong Portfolio: 25% each of (domestic / international) stocks / domestic (nominal / inflation-indexed) long-term bonds | VCN/VXC/VLB/ZRR

mtmingus
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by mtmingus » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:39 am

I know someone who just did it in 20 years. Joined the workforce at age 30 due to graduate school at a modest lower 30k salary, one income, one wife (important!), and two kids. Made mistakes during the 2000~2002 dotcom. Lost a lot of money in 2008~2009 (percentage wise). A brief 3-months interruption in employment. Children eventually went to two proud private colleges without taking a loan. A modest house was paid for before the first child started college.
Barely clipping the 6 figure salary when the net worth was near 1 million (without counting home equity).
There was no hard defined goals of such: saving xx% of salary, max out 401k and IRAs. Live your life, love your family, be disciplined, save as much as you can. Invest in your children's learning, help them financially when they need and you can - this counts a lot more than to leave them inheritances. Accumulating xx amount by age yy had never be a defined goal.

stoptothink
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by stoptothink » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:58 am

longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:20 am
My 20's were a completely lost decade financially. After losing a lot of my life's savings in the real estate crash and then the rest in a divorce (after paying $150k+ out of pocket for my ex's undergrad and dental school), at 30 I found myself struggling to finish my PhD dissertation and with a net worth close to $0. I remarried at 32, my wife was a single mom with a negative net worth and was making ~$11hr. Now at 37, our household networth is in the mid-upper 6-figures and (barring another crash) will hit $1M about the time I hit 40 (wife will be 35). I didn't hit 6-figures in income until 2yrs ago and it is barely past that now, my wife (as of last year) now makes 4x what she did when we met.

There is no secret. LBYM and stay the course. Our household income has nearly tripled in the last 5yrs, but our household spending has remained virtually the same. It hasn't been "hard", we are just comfortable living a lifestyle which is far below our means and the rest is saved/invested.
I simply don't believe this, unless there's some undisclosed windfall. It would have required an inflation-adjusted $6,500 investment to grow a 100% US stocks portfolio from $0 to $800,000 from January 2012 to October 2018 (see Portfolio Visualizer). This is $78,000 in annual investments.
We haven't hit 800k yet, we're right around $700k including home equity. Over the last 3yrs we've saved well over $78k/yr, in 2018 it will be over $100k for the 2nd year in a row. Even when we just were married and HHI was ~$85k/yr, we managed to save very close to half our gross income.

Our income has shot up the last 3 years, but even if we would have remained at $85k/yr HHI perpetually we likely would have hit 7-figures before I reached 50. It's all living below our means; buying a home in 2015 that was 1.4x our HHI (HHI now exceeds what we bought our home for), sharing one compact vehicle, etc.

longinvest
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by longinvest » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:07 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:58 am
longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:20 am
My 20's were a completely lost decade financially. After losing a lot of my life's savings in the real estate crash and then the rest in a divorce (after paying $150k+ out of pocket for my ex's undergrad and dental school), at 30 I found myself struggling to finish my PhD dissertation and with a net worth close to $0. I remarried at 32, my wife was a single mom with a negative net worth and was making ~$11hr. Now at 37, our household networth is in the mid-upper 6-figures and (barring another crash) will hit $1M about the time I hit 40 (wife will be 35). I didn't hit 6-figures in income until 2yrs ago and it is barely past that now, my wife (as of last year) now makes 4x what she did when we met.

There is no secret. LBYM and stay the course. Our household income has nearly tripled in the last 5yrs, but our household spending has remained virtually the same. It hasn't been "hard", we are just comfortable living a lifestyle which is far below our means and the rest is saved/invested.
I simply don't believe this, unless there's some undisclosed windfall. It would have required an inflation-adjusted $6,500 monthly investment to grow a 100% US stocks portfolio from $0 to $800,000 from January 2012 to October 2018 (see Portfolio Visualizer). This is $78,000 in annual investments.
We haven't hit 800k yet, we're right around $700k including home equity. Over the last 3yrs we've saved well over $78k/yr, in 2018 it will be over $100k for the 2nd year in a row. Even when we just were married and HHI was ~$85k/yr, we managed to save very close to half our gross income.

Our income has shot up the last 3 years, but even if we would have remained at $85k/yr HHI perpetually we likely would have hit 7-figures before I reached 50. It's all living below our means; buying a home in 2015 that was 1.4x our HHI (HHI now exceeds what we bought our home for), sharing one compact vehicle, etc.
Thanks for the clarification.
Bogleheads investment philosophy | Lifelong Portfolio: 25% each of (domestic / international) stocks / domestic (nominal / inflation-indexed) long-term bonds | VCN/VXC/VLB/ZRR

b0B
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by b0B » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:14 pm

Remember a lot of people with middle class incomes (i.e. $30k - $100k) pay zero or negative taxes.

It takes a gigantic salary to be paying 1/3 in taxes.

KlangFool
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:18 pm

b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:14 pm
Remember a lot of people with middle class incomes (i.e. $30k - $100k) pay zero or negative taxes.

It takes a gigantic salary to be paying 1/3 in taxes.
b0B,

That may be true for Federal and State income tax. But, we still have to pay social security and Medicare taxes (7.65%).

KlangFool

b0B
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by b0B » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:24 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:18 pm
b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:14 pm
Remember a lot of people with middle class incomes (i.e. $30k - $100k) pay zero or negative taxes.

It takes a gigantic salary to be paying 1/3 in taxes.
b0B,

That may be true for Federal and State income tax. But, we still have to pay social security and Medicare taxes (7.65%).

KlangFool
Not everyone pays social security taxes (I don't) but I would count that as retirement savings not taxes, as I have to save my own money to make up for not getting social security.

Anyway, I'm making a general statement that taxes are low, even negative, for moderate incomes, so taxes are not an obstacle to saving.

User avatar
CyclingDuo
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by CyclingDuo » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:00 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:04 am
The saving rate necessary is highly dependent on the individual's employment situation. My industry/career/job has a severe age discrimination problem. Many of my peers are permanently unemployed or under-employed in their 40s and 50s. So, it is unrealistic to assume that I and my peers will be fully-employed continuously for 30 to 40 years.
I have nothing against super savers (we have been doing it the past three years ourselves due to the empty nest, and the catch up provisions provided under IRS rules). I agree that we should not assume one will be fully-employed continuously for 30-40 years in one given career. Yet there are those that certainly are. As you mention, saving and planning for one's expected reality within their chosen profession is prudent and you are an excellent role model for doing that with your preparations. Kudos to you for it.

Having suffered a layoff myself this year, I can attest to retooling and adjusting to a lower income for now by working partially in an entirely different industry/career/job.

In terms of employment, there is no rule that states one must remain in the exact same industry/career/job for the entirety of their 90,000 working hours over say a typical age 22 to 65 period. If one did indeed work 90,000 hours over their working life, it could include a variety of jobs ranging from part-time to full-time and at various pay grades over a long stretch of time. At age 57, I'm actually in my 44th year of working and reporting wages to the IRS according to SS (which includes everything from my early days of part-time jobs, to high school and college jobs, all they way through the career years and up to my current status of piecing together more than one part-time job which actually works out to me working 43-50 hours a week...). No doubt I will eventually hit the 90,000 hours worked threshold at some point if all of those worked hours add up. 8-)

We could go back to the teenage years for everyone to start with their part-time employment hours and when their saving may indeed have begun (we made our kids save and put some of their earned income into their Roth IRA's from the get go), work through the full time years and all of the hours accumulated, and then end with part-time work in the latter years (whether it is in one's late 50's, their 60's or even beyond into their 70's and 80's) that many semi-retired and retirees find themselves doing whether it is for income, staying active with a sense of purpose/identity or any combination of factors. Not saying everyone would pursue such a path of longevity via a variety of employment throughout their years, but saying that it indeed is a reality for many. I don't think we should confine one's use of their human capital to only one industry/career/job that they may associate with for their earning years. We should, instead, extend it out to the early in life part-time jobs, the side gigs along the way, the years that are extended beyond one's full-time career jobs to include part-time work in the latter years to use as an entire base for saving as well as producing income to meet expenses.

If we took a lower income worker and followed the path of them being able to save a reasonable amount that matches their income over decades of their human capital producing income - be it lower wages or higher wages, full-time or part-time - the path to saving is indeed available at levels that closely meet or match a particular income level. Although 30%+ of gross income may attack your particular situation, reality and concerns you have over the longevity within the telecom industry - it doesn't necessarily address everyone else in an equal manner. Who's to say that once your telecom career earnings are over and finished with, you won't find some income and joy and purpose in working a part-time position doing something totally unrelated to your industry/career/job affiliation to occupy part of your time in your 60's and 70's?

Several of us made the point that somebody trying to accumulate wealth on a lower salary needs to be careful not to over save by shooting for a high percentage of their gross income to the detriment of the household cash flow not being able to meet their expenses. Rather, encouraging saving at a reasonable rate for the income level and increasing the time frame of working longer to meet goals in retirement may be the best advice. A dual income household certainly improves the situation if both are making lower salaries.

If we used David Bach's formula of saving for retirement the equivalent of one hour's wage per day for a worker making $35K annually...

$16.82 an hour X 365 days = $6142 saved per year, or 17.5% of gross income ($512 a month)

30 years compounded at 6% = $485K
30 years compounded at 7% = $580K

35 years compounded at 6% = $685K
35 years compounded at 7% = $850K

40 years compounded at 6% = $950K
40 years compounded at 7% = $1.225M

A typical 90,000 or 40 hours per week working career from age 22 to 65 as David Bach suggests...

43 years compounded at 6% = $1.152M
43 years compounded at 7% = $1.522M

That's all before we include a possible employer match in the 401k, as well as accounting for any increase in wages over the years which would both shorten the years required to meet various milestones such as how long to reach $1M in accumulated assets.
"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time." ~ Steven Wright

srt7
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by srt7 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:23 pm

dknightd,

If you check your pay slip and so on, you will find that taxes (social security, Medicare, Federal, state) takes out about 30% of your gross income. So, saving 30+% of your gross income is equivalent to your annual expense.

...

KlangFool
I don't get it. How does saving 30% of gross equal to ones annual expense? I'm genuinely curious. Please explain.
I can't think of anything more luxurious than owning my time. - remomnyc

srt7
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by srt7 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:16 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:58 am
longinvest wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:29 am
stoptothink wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:20 am
My 20's were a completely lost decade financially. After losing a lot of my life's savings in the real estate crash and then the rest in a divorce (after paying $150k+ out of pocket for my ex's undergrad and dental school), at 30 I found myself struggling to finish my PhD dissertation and with a net worth close to $0. I remarried at 32, my wife was a single mom with a negative net worth and was making ~$11hr. Now at 37, our household networth is in the mid-upper 6-figures and (barring another crash) will hit $1M about the time I hit 40 (wife will be 35). I didn't hit 6-figures in income until 2yrs ago and it is barely past that now, my wife (as of last year) now makes 4x what she did when we met.

There is no secret. LBYM and stay the course. Our household income has nearly tripled in the last 5yrs, but our household spending has remained virtually the same. It hasn't been "hard", we are just comfortable living a lifestyle which is far below our means and the rest is saved/invested.
I simply don't believe this, unless there's some undisclosed windfall. It would have required an inflation-adjusted $6,500 investment to grow a 100% US stocks portfolio from $0 to $800,000 from January 2012 to October 2018 (see Portfolio Visualizer). This is $78,000 in annual investments.
We haven't hit 800k yet, we're right around $700k including home equity. Over the last 3yrs we've saved well over $78k/yr, in 2018 it will be over $100k for the 2nd year in a row. Even when we just were married and HHI was ~$85k/yr, we managed to save very close to half our gross income.

Our income has shot up the last 3 years, but even if we would have remained at $85k/yr HHI perpetually we likely would have hit 7-figures before I reached 50. It's all living below our means; buying a home in 2015 that was 1.4x our HHI (HHI now exceeds what we bought our home for), sharing one compact vehicle, etc.
Well done!
I can't think of anything more luxurious than owning my time. - remomnyc

Quaestner
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by Quaestner » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:18 pm

If we get enough inflation, we can all be millionaires! A million isn't what it used to be, and it won't be what it is now. Live life well, save prudently - and, while goals matter, maybe don't worry too much about the 7 figures?

srt7
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by srt7 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:24 pm

Quaestner wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:18 pm
If we get enough inflation, we can all be millionaires! A million isn't what it used to be, and it won't be what it is now. Live life well, save prudently - and, while goals matter, maybe don't worry too much about the 7 figures?
This is good advice. LBYM, save and don't worry about a number (as it's value is always changing).
I can't think of anything more luxurious than owning my time. - remomnyc

KlangFool
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:18 pm

srt7 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:13 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:23 pm

dknightd,

If you check your pay slip and so on, you will find that taxes (social security, Medicare, Federal, state) takes out about 30% of your gross income. So, saving 30+% of your gross income is equivalent to your annual expense.

...

KlangFool
I don't get it. How does saving 30% of gross equal to ones annual expense? I'm genuinely curious. Please explain.
srt7,

Gross income = taxes + annual expense + savings.

KlangFool

InvisibleAerobar
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by InvisibleAerobar » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:07 pm

DrivingFun wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:02 am
pdavi21 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:05 pm
EDIT: If you can't save 1,800 a month (assuming you make 50-100k per year), you need to seriously look at your expenses. Biggest thing you can do is buying a cheap house if your job is stable or getting roommates. You may want to look into cooking meals, buying used goods, learning to fix things on your own, reducing travel, etc.
I bet you're making a lot more than 50k/yr, hence why you think it's easy. 50k/yr is probably like 3000k/month without 401k contributions. You're saying a person should easily be able to save something like 60% of their take home without even considering 401k contributions. That someone probably has student loans to pay back, and every other expense (shelter, food, transportation, health, etc.). sometimes this message board amazes me.
with the backdoor brags and the people casting blasé dicta that others should do something b/c the poster him/herself has done it, sometimes the smugness and the self-righteousness is a bit unbearable

the person to whom you responded sure doesn't seem to understand that there is a world of difference btwn 50k and 100k, because the fixed cost (housing, driving/transportation, food, etc) accounts for a much greater portion of 50k than it does for 100k. Saving $1,800/month (whether pre tax, post tax, whatever) is a lot at 50k, while it's easily doable (and i'd say a bit low) at 100k. For argument's sake, we'll assume someone who is single and without any dependents, contributing $1200/month into 401k (or $14.4k/yr), $3k/yr for health insurance.

FICA is assessed at $47k (50k-3k for health insurance, FSA, HSA, etc), so take away $3600.
Federal tax is assessed at $20.6k (50k-3k-14.4k for 401k-12k standard deduction). Take away $2281.
Levying of state taxes differ; some allows you to deduct 401k, others don't; some states don't even have a tax. Let's say 401k is deductible (along with health insurance premium, but no other deduction), tax rate 3.5%. we get ~$1150.

So take home after all that is $28569; let's call it $29,000. Here is where the details matter. Where is person living? Even getting a roommate in any major city costs $1k/month. Food costs doesn't vary too much, say $4k/yr. Car insurance of $1k/yr, gas of $1k/yr (and this is on the conservative side), $500/yr in annual maintenance cost. Now we are down to ~$10k for discretionary spending and savings. Could this person save another $600/month? Perhaps, but that leaves only $2800/yr for everything else. All this, of course, assumes no car payment, no student loan payment, etc. You add a $700/month student loan payment, all the sudden there isn't much to save. The saving rate is 29% of pre-tax and 25% of take home. That's a staggeringly high percentage.

At 100k, a lot of these costs are mostly fixed (at least for a frugul boglehead). Housing largely stays the same (but perhaps a $1.7k/month studio/1Br), food perhaps now $5k/yr, but everything else stays the same. 401k now maxed out to take advantage of the tax savings.

FICA levied at $97k, so take away ~$7600.
Federal tax levied at $66.5k (100k-3k-18.5k-12k standard deduction), so take away $10570.
State tax rate is now 4%, levied at 100k-3k-18.5k, or $3140

Take home is thus $60,190 (say $60k). One takes away $20,500 for housing, $5,000 for food, and $2,500 for car related costs, and we are left with $32,000 for saving and discretionary spending. This person could pay $700/month to student loans and still have ~$1,800 for other things. Furthermore, only $260/month needed to hit $1800/month in savings. This person is saving 18.5% of pre-tax, and ideally should save 30% of take home (~$18k), which leaves a good $14k for discretionary spending.

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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:28 pm

b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:24 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:18 pm
b0B wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:14 pm
Remember a lot of people with middle class incomes (i.e. $30k - $100k) pay zero or negative taxes.

It takes a gigantic salary to be paying 1/3 in taxes.
b0B,

That may be true for Federal and State income tax. But, we still have to pay social security and Medicare taxes (7.65%).

KlangFool
Not everyone pays social security taxes (I don't) but I would count that as retirement savings not taxes, as I have to save my own money to make up for not getting social security.

Anyway, I'm making a general statement that taxes are low, even negative, for moderate incomes, so taxes are not an obstacle to saving.
b0B,

<<Not everyone pays social security taxes (I don't) but I would count that as retirement savings not taxes, >>

1) I count social security and Medicare as taxes.

<<as I have to save my own money to make up for not getting social security.>>

2) I do not assume that I will be full-employed until 62 years old.

KlangFool

getthatmarshmallow
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by getthatmarshmallow » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:39 pm

It's doable, if you're in a lowish cost of living area and your expenses are low. It will take us about 20 years (moving average income is under $100K over the past decade, but likely higher going forward as it doubled in 2016.) It requires not just diligence (the first few years are slow going) but also a decent amount of luck, because even with a high savings rate there isn't a lot of wiggle room on a lower salary if things go sideways. (E.g., a friend whose two children were both diagnosed with type I diabetes has a lot of insulin to buy now.)

KlangFool
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:40 pm

InvisibleAerobar wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:07 pm
DrivingFun wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:02 am
pdavi21 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:05 pm
EDIT: If you can't save 1,800 a month (assuming you make 50-100k per year), you need to seriously look at your expenses. Biggest thing you can do is buying a cheap house if your job is stable or getting roommates. You may want to look into cooking meals, buying used goods, learning to fix things on your own, reducing travel, etc.
I bet you're making a lot more than 50k/yr, hence why you think it's easy. 50k/yr is probably like 3000k/month without 401k contributions. You're saying a person should easily be able to save something like 60% of their take home without even considering 401k contributions. That someone probably has student loans to pay back, and every other expense (shelter, food, transportation, health, etc.). sometimes this message board amazes me.
with the backdoor brags and the people casting blasé dicta that others should do something b/c the poster him/herself has done it, sometimes the smugness and the self-righteousness is a bit unbearable

the person to whom you responded sure doesn't seem to understand that there is a world of difference btwn 50k and 100k, because the fixed cost (housing, driving/transportation, food, etc) accounts for a much greater portion of 50k than it does for 100k.
InvisibleAerobar,

It is very simple but hard.

<< the person to whom you responded sure doesn't seem to understand that there is a world of difference btwn 50k and 100k, >>

Folks in my culture and mentality has a different view in life. Let's take 50K per year as the number.

A) It is obvious that a person can survive on 50K X 2/3 = 33.3K of gross income.

B) So, for a person in my culture, the person with 50K per year of income will save 16.7K first and assume that he has only 33.3K of gross income. Then, he lives on 33.3K of gross income.

C) This applies to almost everyone in my culture/ex-home country/community. The average gross saving rate for my ex-home country is 30+%.

It will not work if you think that you have 50K of gross income. This is the process and mentality for folks that save 30+% or above of their gross income.

No, I am not saying that you should live this way. But, I am telling you that there are several countries in the world that live some other ways.

It is "saves first and spends later" versus "spends first and saves later".

KlangFool
Last edited by KlangFool on Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ron Ronnerson
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by Ron Ronnerson » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:41 pm

There are a number of posts about taxes. Regarding that, people's situations can vary considerably. We have a gross income of around $120k and are a family of 3. We pay $1900 in federal tax, $100 for California income tax (we're in a low bracket), nothing for social security, and around $1500 for Medicare.

It is definitely possible to become a millionaire with an income under $100k but the time to do so will vary based on things like savings rate and how close a person is to that $100k figure for income. Luck should not be discounted either. House values can change, a person or their spouse could get sick and/or die (life insurance might become a factor), there could be job promotions or job losses, investment returns might be extra generous or particularly stingy. The list goes on. Control what you can and save what you can. I wouldn't worry about some arbitrary number like $1M.

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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by JGoneRiding » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:50 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:21 pm
Nissanzx1 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:44 pm

In fact, (I realize this might be controversial) but I'll go so far as to say if you aren't a millionaire (or close to it) by 50-60, you really made some big mistakes. It doesn't mean you are a bad person, but you made some real mistakes...
Nissanzx1,

1) My good friend worked in Enron for over 22 years. He lost all his 401K savings.


2) In every recession/economy crisis, many folks are wiped out when they are unemployed and all their assets' value dropped at the same time. Could you survive 1 to 2 years of unemployment?

2) There is at least one US recession every 10 years. Across 20 to 30 years, we have to survive many recessions.

KlangFool
I think that qualifies as a really big mistake. You of all should know it's a huge mistake to have all of your net worth tied up in one company or market segment.

Hence my advice earlier. Invest very broadly, stay the course, and only play money goes to exciting things!

KlangFool
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:07 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:50 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:21 pm
Nissanzx1 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:44 pm

In fact, (I realize this might be controversial) but I'll go so far as to say if you aren't a millionaire (or close to it) by 50-60, you really made some big mistakes. It doesn't mean you are a bad person, but you made some real mistakes...
Nissanzx1,

1) My good friend worked in Enron for over 22 years. He lost all his 401K savings.


2) In every recession/economy crisis, many folks are wiped out when they are unemployed and all their assets' value dropped at the same time. Could you survive 1 to 2 years of unemployment?

2) There is at least one US recession every 10 years. Across 20 to 30 years, we have to survive many recessions.

KlangFool
I think that qualifies as a really big mistake. You of all should know it's a huge mistake to have all of your net worth tied up in one company or market segment.

Hence my advice earlier. Invest very broadly, stay the course, and only play money goes to exciting things!
JGoneRiding,

<< I think that qualifies as a really big mistake. You of all should know it's a huge mistake to have all of your net worth tied up in one company or market segment.>>

1) If I remember correctly, all company matched contribution goes towards the company stock. So, the employee was not given a choice not to invest in the company for a significant amount of their 401K.

2) It is due to Enron that some of that stuff is no longer allowed in the 401K.

KlangFool

InvisibleAerobar
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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by InvisibleAerobar » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:20 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:40 pm
InvisibleAerobar wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:07 pm
DrivingFun wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:02 am
pdavi21 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:05 pm
EDIT: If you can't save 1,800 a month (assuming you make 50-100k per year), you need to seriously look at your expenses. Biggest thing you can do is buying a cheap house if your job is stable or getting roommates. You may want to look into cooking meals, buying used goods, learning to fix things on your own, reducing travel, etc.
I bet you're making a lot more than 50k/yr, hence why you think it's easy. 50k/yr is probably like 3000k/month without 401k contributions. You're saying a person should easily be able to save something like 60% of their take home without even considering 401k contributions. That someone probably has student loans to pay back, and every other expense (shelter, food, transportation, health, etc.). sometimes this message board amazes me.
with the backdoor brags and the people casting blasé dicta that others should do something b/c the poster him/herself has done it, sometimes the smugness and the self-righteousness is a bit unbearable

the person to whom you responded sure doesn't seem to understand that there is a world of difference btwn 50k and 100k, because the fixed cost (housing, driving/transportation, food, etc) accounts for a much greater portion of 50k than it does for 100k.
InvisibleAerobar,

It is very simple but hard.

<< the person to whom you responded sure doesn't seem to understand that there is a world of difference btwn 50k and 100k, >>

Folks in my culture and mentality has a different view in life. Let's take 50K per year as the number.

A) It is obvious that a person can survive on 50K X 2/3 = 33.3K of gross income.

B) So, for a person in my culture, the person with 50K per year of income will save 16.7K first and assume that he has only 33.3K of gross income. Then, he lives on 33.3K of gross income.

C) This applies to almost everyone in my culture/ex-home country/community. The average gross saving rate for my ex-home country is 30+%.

It will not work if you think that you have 50K of gross income. This is the process and mentality for folks that save 30+% or above of their gross income.

No, I am not saying that you should live this way. But, I am telling you that there are several countries in the world that live some other ways.

It is "saves first and spends later" versus "spends first and saves later".

KlangFool
@KlangFool,

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but surely you can see that the thesis of your post is different from mine. My point was that there are certain fixed costs that have to be paid (and can't be reduced as to be negligible), regardless if one makes 50k or 100k, b/c these costs don't increase drastically when one earns 100k (as opposed to 50k). Thus, to suggest that both should save the same amount is misguided for not taking into account of this fixed cost.

You raise a good point in that you point out that there's a different mentality to think of things. While I don't disagree entirely, there are two caveats. First, do the youngsters in the country from which you emigrated mostly live with their parents when the youngsters start out? If so, then I'd say you are not giving sufficient consideration to that form of parental subsidy. Second, assuming the youngsters don't receive subsidy (which means that it would be an apt comparison for a society in which youth independence is valued), as another poster mentioned, setting too stringent a requirement more often than not is setting someone up for failure. "Perfect" here is the enemy of the good, as the former may see people quitting along the way for not hitting lofty goals (why bother at all if you can't get there) while the latter fosters a more steady approach that has greater chances of success in the long term.

Also, the rule of thumb to which I responded is the requirement that someone making 50k should save $1800/month (or $21,600/yr). No matter how one slices it, it is a saving rate greater than 40%. If people in the country from which you emigrated saves only 30%+ (despite the pervasiveness of the mentality that one should save), then surely you can see why that original requirement is a bit far fetched for someone making 50k/yr.

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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by KlangFool » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:46 pm

InvisibleAerobar wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:20 pm

@KlangFool,

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but surely you can see that the thesis of your post is different from mine. My point was that there are certain fixed costs that have to be paid (and can't be reduced as to be negligible), regardless if one makes 50k or 100k, b/c these costs don't increase drastically when one earns 100k (as opposed to 50k). Thus, to suggest that both should save the same amount is misguided for not taking into account of this fixed cost.

You raise a good point in that you point out that there's a different mentality to think of things. While I don't disagree entirely, there are two caveats. First, do the youngsters in the country from which you emigrated mostly live with their parents when the youngsters start out? If so, then I'd say you are not giving sufficient consideration to that form of parental subsidy. Second, assuming the youngsters don't receive subsidy (which means that it would be an apt comparison for a society in which youth independence is valued), as another poster mentioned, setting too stringent a requirement more often than not is setting someone up for failure. "Perfect" here is the enemy of the good, as the former may see people quitting along the way for not hitting lofty goals (why bother at all if you can't get there) while the latter fosters a more steady approach that has greater chances of success in the long term.

Also, the rule of thumb to which I responded is the requirement that someone making 50k should save $1800/month (or $21,600/yr). No matter how one slices it, it is a saving rate greater than 40%. If people in the country from which you emigrated saves only 30%+ (despite the pervasiveness of the mentality that one should save), then surely you can see why that original requirement is a bit far fetched for someone making 50k/yr.
InvisibleAerobar,

<< First, do the youngsters in the country from which you emigrated mostly live with their parents when the youngsters start out? If so, then I'd say you are not giving sufficient consideration to that form of parental subsidy. >>

For youngster living with their parents, they probably save 50+% or more of their gross income. Please note that in this culture, the youngster gives allowance to their parents when they started working.

<< Also, the rule of thumb to which I responded is the requirement that someone making 50k should save $1800/month (or $21,600/yr). No matter how one slices it, it is a saving rate greater than 40%. If people in the country from which you emigrated saves only 30%+ (despite the pervasiveness of the mentality that one should save), then surely you can see why that original requirement is a bit far fetched for someone making 50k/yr.>>

I am not answering that question. I do not believe in saving for retirement in the first place. In my system, if the person saves 1/3 (16.7K) of the income, the FI number is 25X 1/3 X 50K = 417K. 1 million is not the target.

KlangFool

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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by Cycle » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:53 pm

Quaestner wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:18 pm
If we get enough inflation, we can all be millionaires! A million isn't what it used to be, and it won't be what it is now. Live life well, save prudently - and, while goals matter, maybe don't worry too much about the 7 figures?
Many BHs read The Millionaire Next Door, which was published in 1996, and I'm reading the new follow-up book. In todays dollars that 1996 million is 1.64MM.

If one is frugal, 1.64MM should be sufficient money to retire, and so I feel like the Millionaire Next Door publication date is a good timestamp for when a million bucks equated to "making it" hahaha.

I read that book in highschool and it has been a goal in the back of my mind ever since... Not to reach a million, but to reach an inflation adjusted 1996 million, individually. With every year that passes, the goal line moves a little further.

What is a 2018 million worth in 1996? $611k. Or 40% less than a million bucks.

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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by scrabbler1 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:15 pm

I worked for 23 years, the first 16 of them full-time before reducing my hours to part-time for the last 7 years ending in 2008. My highest salary, at the end of Year 16, was $78k. Counting home equity (a paid-off studio co-op apartment valued at about $100k), I hit $1M at age 43, my 5th year working part-time.

I attribute the $1M to the following:

(1) No kids (I am childfree).
(2) No debts (I paid off my student loans at age 24, paid off my mortgage in 10 years - age 35, and paid cash for each car, one of them lasting 15 years.
(3) LBYM (never had any expensive habits such as smoking)
(4) One bit of good fortune was some company stock I was given during my peak earnings years whose value grew to $300k by the time I stopped working.

I was not a super-aggressive investor, my average annual return has been between 5% and 7% in my taxable portfolio, between 7% and 9% in my 401k (excluding the company stock).

I retired 10 years ago at age 45. My portfolio has risen to about $1.5M despite not working the last 10 years. I live in a HCOL area.

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Re: How Long / Hard To Become a Millionaire on Under $100k Income

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:23 pm

I removed some off-topic posts. This thread has run its course and is locked (derailed, contentious). See: Locked Topics
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