Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

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123
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by 123 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:03 am

Some people run around to a bunch of different branches of the same bank to divy up a large deposit, or they split the deposit up over a number of days, or some combination of these. You should be aware that many banks have automated tools that aggregate cash deposits made at different branches and/or on different days to determine if reporting to the IRS is necessary. Since it can be an automated process done outside of the local branch these is little a teller or branch manager can do to evade it. It's easier just to let the bank fill out whateve IRS report might be needed, many times those are automated as well so that fact that a teller didn't ask you about a large deposit does not mean that a required report wasn't filed.
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by typical.investor » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:14 am

The Wizard wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:05 pm
The reported structuring seizures are beyond the magnitude of the OP's situation.
But for people engaged in an ongoing cash-focused business, CLEARLY you want to wait until you accumulate at least $11,000 before depositing it...
Even then, I’d feel safer with something showing the money came through probate, and then was a gift.

If you get caught for a traffic violation on the way to the bank, your money could be seized. They can assume you are guilty and make you prove the money was not illegally obtained. It depends on State law I believe, but the State might then be able to claim that money after sometime.

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Last edited by typical.investor on Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

msk
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by msk » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:15 am

Sigh. What's the world coming to? We are so afraid of crooks that we forget that the vast majority are law abiding citizens. $70k cash is, frankly, not a big deal in many countries. E.g. in a country I bought RE a few years ago, I had to go to the land registry with the seller, together with our IDs. The two of you are only allowed to sign the transfer paper if the seller acknowledges that he has received all the money due to him. I did not wish to pay before seeing the sales paper being processed forthwith. So the common practice in that country was that the buyer brings his cash and hands it over at the service window. This can be hundreds of thousands of $! I was happy that the seller agreed to accept a bank cheque made out in his name :moneybag No wonder there is now all this talk about crypto currencies...

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Gill » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:18 am

I see this went on all night.😀. Another risk that hasn’t been mentioned is that the IRS and state could look into grandmother’s income tax returns to see how the cash was accumulated. I handled an estate where the decedent has $250K in cash and this is exactly what happened. This might be a risk of grandmother depositing the cash.
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:33 am

Gill wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:18 am
I see this went on all night.😀. Another risk that hasn’t been mentioned is that the IRS and state could look into grandmother’s income tax returns to see how the cash was accumulated. I handled an estate where the decedent has $250K in cash and this is exactly what happened. This might be a risk of grandmother depositing the cash.
Gill
No problem-everyone should simply keep a printed copy of their Social Security earnings statement with an HP-12C, a copy of the US Treasury annual yield rates or from the Federal Reserve and a copy of The Millionaire Next Door explaining what a Prodigious Accumulator of Wealth is (a copy of The Bogleheads Guide wouldn’t hurt either). Earnings less tax = disposable earnings, those earning are the foundation for the cash.

Or, you could just tell them they were wedding gifts! :moneybag
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8foot7
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by 8foot7 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:07 am

I sold a car for $12,000 and the seller literally brought cash. To avoid the possibility of it being counterfeit, I asked for him to bring the money to my credit union, and we deposited it there. I was asked a great deal of information, including for my driver license, where the cash was coming from, etc. It was a few years ago but I think the buyer was also asked for his ID. It was obvious a report was being filed, but as during the same transaction at the same teller I signed over the vehicle title to the buyer, I wasn't worried, and I'm sure it was documented in whatever currency report that was filed that the cash was the result of a car sale.

I don't think there's anything to be afraid of from the report. Like in everything, the attempt to cover it up *structuring, even if that isn't a primary motivation) is much worse than the report itself.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Carson » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:50 am

I didn't read every single post, so not sure if this has been suggested...

Any chance your grandmother has a good relationship at a local bank and could work with them to do a one-time deposit of cash, and then she can turn around and give you checks? I was a banker in a close-knit community and there were some people we knew took out cash every week, and we were pretty sure they stuffed it into their mattress (or they would walk over and put it in their safe deposit box). So getting a deposit from whoever is clearing their estate would require federal reporting, but certainly not be a suspicious transaction.
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by DanMahowny » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:19 am

I'm an advantage gambler and frequently have enormous sums of cash.

I would NOT deposit the money. I have too many stories about law abiding citizens running into serious problems after they deposit "legitimate" cash. These people also had "nothing to hide" and could prove the source of the cash. It didn't matter.
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by lthenderson » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:24 am

Last week I had to open a brand new business checking account for an organization I am part of and was shocked to learn that the bank limited cash deposits to $3000 per month now. You can deposit more if you write a check, but for cash, I could only deposit $3000 per month. I was told it was due to new laws passed last year. It was also much much harder to even open the account than before. It used to be all I needed was an ID and money to fund it. This time I was required to obtain the charter of the organization (from 1941!) and also proof showing that I was a recognized member of the organization as well as an ID.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:35 am

8foot7 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:07 am
I sold a car for $12,000 and the seller literally brought cash. To avoid the possibility of it being counterfeit, I asked for him to bring the money to my credit union, and we deposited it there. I was asked a great deal of information, including for my driver license, where the cash was coming from, etc. It was a few years ago but I think the buyer was also asked for his ID. It was obvious a report was being filed, but as during the same transaction at the same teller I signed over the vehicle title to the buyer, I wasn't worried, and I'm sure it was documented in whatever currency report that was filed that the cash was the result of a car sale.

I don't think there's anything to be afraid of from the report. Like in everything, the attempt to cover it up *structuring, even if that isn't a primary motivation) is much worse than the report itself.
This is likely important.

Just because a Suspicious Activity Report is filed, that doesn't mean there will be any noticeably "action" taken, especially if there isn't really anything suspicious other than the fact of a moderately large cash deposit that triggers the report.

RM
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Cheyenne » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:44 am

Last year a customer purchased something from my business with about $4,000 in cash. When I went to deposit it the bank officer asked me where I got it, so I don't deposit cash anymore.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by ddurrett896 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:44 am

Gill wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:32 pm
TheDDC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:28 pm
Gill wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:17 pm
I'll bet there's probably more cash in other places in the house. (My in-law put a deceased's persons stuff in the front yard for a yard sale, then started going through the pockets. After they found several hundred dollars, they pulled all the clothes inside for another time. The original family did not trust banks so had cash hidden all over.)

If you are not sure of your grandmother's financial affairs, you should let her keep it and will it to you and the other grandkid(s). Remind her that some day she might need it for herself and if you spend it, she could be in dire straights. Meanwhile, it sounds like someone has a project to see if any bills are worth more than face value. Another project is to get it into her bank account, at a minimum. Keep deposits under $9,000 and it should be in the bank within a year. Deposits over $10K will cause the bank to fill out forms that slow down the deposit process and raise red flags, with possible reporting to the federal government (not sure which agency).
Celia, not good advice. You are advocating structuring which is a crime.
Gill
Depositing money is not a crime. Is this how we are prepared to accept the police state? Being fearful of depositing our own cash without .gov permission? I would rather break up the deposits so that the money shows up in the ledger balance at the same time. What's the difference between $9,999 and $10,000?

-TheDDC
Breaking up the deposits is called structuring and punishable by as much as five years in prison. Whether you like it or not, that’s the law.
Gill
What constitutes structuring? Let’s say the OP has the money in a safe at home and doesn’t feel comfortable driving and depositing more than a couple thousand at one time. I’ve actually had tellers tell me “I can’t believe you are carrying $xxx” and it’s been well under $10,000.

To midigate risk, they only deposit a couple thousand per day in the event something like a car hacking happens.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by The Wizard » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:54 am

ddurrett896 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:44 am
What constitutes structuring? Let’s say the OP has the money in a safe at home and doesn’t feel comfortable driving and depositing more than a couple thousand at one time. I’ve actually had tellers tell me “I can’t believe you are carrying $xxx” and it’s been well under $10,000.

To midigate risk, they only deposit a couple thousand per day in the event something like a car hacking happens.
What you just described is textbook structuring, strictly illegal under Federal law.
The IRS could seize the entire amount...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Cheyenne » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:55 am

ddurrett896 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:44 am
Gill wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:32 pm
TheDDC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:28 pm
Gill wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:17 pm
I'll bet there's probably more cash in other places in the house. (My in-law put a deceased's persons stuff in the front yard for a yard sale, then started going through the pockets. After they found several hundred dollars, they pulled all the clothes inside for another time. The original family did not trust banks so had cash hidden all over.)

If you are not sure of your grandmother's financial affairs, you should let her keep it and will it to you and the other grandkid(s). Remind her that some day she might need it for herself and if you spend it, she could be in dire straights. Meanwhile, it sounds like someone has a project to see if any bills are worth more than face value. Another project is to get it into her bank account, at a minimum. Keep deposits under $9,000 and it should be in the bank within a year. Deposits over $10K will cause the bank to fill out forms that slow down the deposit process and raise red flags, with possible reporting to the federal government (not sure which agency).
Celia, not good advice. You are advocating structuring which is a crime.
Gill
Depositing money is not a crime. Is this how we are prepared to accept the police state? Being fearful of depositing our own cash without .gov permission? I would rather break up the deposits so that the money shows up in the ledger balance at the same time. What's the difference between $9,999 and $10,000?

-TheDDC
Breaking up the deposits is called structuring and punishable by as much as five years in prison. Whether you like it or not, that’s the law.
Gill
What constitutes structuring? Let’s say the OP has the money in a safe at home and doesn’t feel comfortable driving and depositing more than a couple thousand at one time. I’ve actually had tellers tell me “I can’t believe you are carrying $xxx” and it’s been well under $10,000.

To midigate risk, they only deposit a couple thousand per day in the event something like a car hacking happens.
They don't care. They make their livings and receive promotions by prosecuting people.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:03 am

A one-time deposit of obviously old currency is not going to raise any red flags, and will probably bring some smiles. The people at the bank have seen this before.

As Gill has helpfully pointed out multiple times, the thing that will get you in trouble is trying to avoid required government reports by breaking up the deposits into smaller amounts. It makes it look like you are trying to hide something. And it is illegal. Make one big deposit, accept the fact that the transaction will be reported to the government, and go out and enjoy your day.

When your employer pays you, they report that to the government. Lots of financial transactions get reported to the government. This is just one more.

But if you really don't want to take the risk, just decline the gift.

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8foot7
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by 8foot7 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:04 am


FreemanB
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by FreemanB » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:21 am

8foot7 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:04 am
Here's a scary story. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/l ... uired.html
If you look up the details, most of these events were triggered by the account owner deliberately depositing less than $10k specifically to avoid the reporting requirements. In most cases, the money was eventually returned to them, but all of the hassle was created because they were given the same bad advice about avoiding the reporting requirement that has also been given by some in this thread. If you have a problem with the reporting requirement, then you should work through your local congressional rep to try to have the law changed. Don't listen to anyone telling you to try to circumvent the law. As others have said, a cover up can be worse than what you are trying to hide.

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DanMahowny
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by DanMahowny » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:28 am

8foot7 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:04 am
Here's a scary story. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/l ... uired.html
Yes sir. This is far more common than people know. They are just naive.

My friend "Bob" was a doomsday prepper type. He saved $19,000 cash. Eventually he decided it was unwise and deposited the money in his bank. He explained the situation and had withdrawal slips to prove the cash was acquired legally from his own checking account over a period of 3 years.

2 months later, his bank account was seized, and emptied. He hired an attorney to review his case for $2,000. The attorney wanted another $10,000 to try to get his money back with no guarantee of success. He was not charged with a crime.

End result: government got $19,000, attorney got $2,000. My friend "Bob" lost $21,000.

Google "civil asset forfeiture" and you'll see countless cases. It's very real. Do not deposit cash.
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by MathIsMyWayr » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:39 am

The title says "Cash." I am curious whether the same rule also applies to a bank check or a transfer between two financial institutions. One time I emptied a fairly large credit union account and walked up to a nearby Fidelity to buy a CD ladder. I also transfer excess fund from my checking account to a brokerage on a semi-regular basis monthly.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by ResearchMed » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:42 am

MathIsMyWayr wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:39 am
The title says "Cash." I am curious whether the same rule also applies to a bank check or a transfer between two financial institutions. One time I emptied a fairly large credit union account and walked up to a nearby Fidelity to buy a CD ladder. I also transfer excess fund from my checking account to a brokerage on a semi-regular basis monthly.
As I've understood it, cash is the problem, as the source of the money is "uncertain".

Checks or direct transfers already have the source of the money identified.
Even writing yourself a check to deposit at another bank/etc., is okay for these purposes. Again, the source of the money is known: You already had it.

RM
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by JackoC » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:08 am

NextMil wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:26 pm
Gill wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:32 pm
TheDDC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:28 pm
Gill wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:19 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:17 pm
Keep deposits under $9,000 and it should be in the bank within a year. Deposits over $10K will cause the bank to fill out forms that slow down the deposit process and raise red flags, with possible reporting to the federal government (not sure which agency).
Celia, not good advice. You are advocating structuring which is a crime.
Gill
Depositing money is not a crime. Is this how we are prepared to accept the police state? Being fearful of depositing our own cash without .gov permission? I would rather break up the deposits so that the money shows up in the ledger balance at the same time. What's the difference between $9,999 and $10,000?
-TheDDC
Breaking up the deposits is called structuring and punishable by as much as five years in prison. Whether you like it or not, that’s the law.
Gill
Nonsense. There has to be a nefarious intent when structuring or smurfing. She isn’t laundering money or committing a financial crime.
There is an intent element. 'Structuring' is a dangerously ambiguous concept, undermining the basic idea that criminal laws should be clear. However it's the law for now, so I'd say avoid practices which could look like it if possible. And I agree with previous comments that the risk of simply depositing the whole amount and having the bank file a report is not high (and they might file a report anyway for amounts under $10k if the bank thinks the govt might think the transaction is suspicious). There is a good explanation, corroborated by grandmother if it's the grand kid depositing: it was a gift. And the chance of official follow up inquiry isn't high anyway.

However I accept the point others have made that there isn't zero risk doing it by the book either. There have been cases where the govt seized cash pending proof it was legally obtained. You are depending on some degree of reasonableness on the part of officials who are in fact promoted for taking action, though can get egg on their face for going after the wrong people.

Just keeping some of the money to spend in lieu of paychecks for awhile is another possibility (in case of not much over $10k). It would be a real stretch to call it 'structuring' if you held and spent $2k on normal expenditures over time and deposited $8k. But such discussions tend to lead to extremes, the money will be really be lost to civil forfeiture, or there will be an investigation of what cash you *didn't* deposit, adding to that to what you did deposit and calling that 'structuring'. Both are very to vanishingly unlikely IMO.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Doom&Gloom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:24 am

EddyB wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:53 pm
Doom&Gloom wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:01 pm
This thread might be much more helpful to OP if everyone who is offering advice would volunteer how many cash transactions of $5000+ they have personally made in the past ten years rather than speculating about something with which they have no experience or in-depth knowledge.
Only hire a lawyer who’s faced the same charges?
Of course not, but there is an uncharacteristic excess of bad information and advice in this thread.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by sport » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:25 am

It seems the banks (laws?) are getting stricter. My bank has a stack of notices on the counter that they will soon start requiring identification for a cash deposit of any amount.

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dm200
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:31 am

Whatever you decide to do -- DO NOT even attempt to avoid the CTR reporting by financial institutions of deposits of over $10,000.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:32 am

sport wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:25 am
It seems the banks (laws?) are getting stricter. My bank has a stack of notices on the counter that they will soon start requiring identification for a cash deposit of any amount.
Yes - there is one credit card we pay in cash at a bank branch. The amounts due are in the $100 - $200 range. In the last few months, they wan my ID when I make a payment. I also see similar signs at my own bank branch.

Not sure why -- but I suspect there is some kind of fraud or scam being done with such cash payments or deposits.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by NextMil » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:49 am

JackoC wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:08 am
NextMil wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:26 pm
Nonsense. There has to be a nefarious intent when structuring or smurfing. She isn’t laundering money or committing a financial crime.
There is an intent element. 'Structuring' is a dangerously ambiguous concept, undermining the basic idea that criminal laws should be clear. However it's the law for now, so I'd say avoid practices which could look like it if possible. And I agree with previous comments that the risk of simply depositing the whole amount and having the bank file a report is not high (and they might file a report anyway for amounts under $10k if the bank thinks the govt might think the transaction is suspicious). There is a good explanation, corroborated by grandmother if it's the grand kid depositing: it was a gift. And the chance of official follow up inquiry isn't high anyway.

However I accept the point others have made that there isn't zero risk doing it by the book either. There have been cases where the govt seized cash pending proof it was legally obtained. You are depending on some degree of reasonableness on the part of officials who are in fact promoted for taking action, though can get egg on their face for going after the wrong people.

Just keeping some of the money to spend in lieu of paychecks for awhile is another possibility (in case of not much over $10k). It would be a real stretch to call it 'structuring' if you held and spent $2k on normal expenditures over time and deposited $8k. But such discussions tend to lead to extremes, the money will be really be lost to civil forfeiture, or there will be an investigation of what cash you *didn't* deposit, adding to that to what you did deposit and calling that 'structuring'. Both are very to vanishingly unlikely IMO.
Yet, it actually isn't anymore. IRS WAS pursuing cases to drive up numbers to look good, and clearly went about it in the worst possible way. Once light was shed on the issue it has been reformed. We all need to do a little more research and spend less time fashioning our tinfoil hats.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood ... d9da5d5123
In 2014, the IRS changed its policy so that it would only pursue illegal source income in structuring cases unless there are “exceptional circumstances.” In 2016, after two congressional hearings on this program, Criminal Investigations also began a process of notifying approximately 1,800 property owners who had funds forfeited in this program, inviting them to send in petitions for return of their funds.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by vtjon » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am

There's a difference between a CTR (Currency Transaction Report) and a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report). Neither of these go to the IRS as far as I know. A CTR is filed anytime there is more than $10K in cash transacted. I'd bet nearly every medium to large car dealer in the country generates multiple of these a day. The volume of CTRs means you aren't going to all of sudden pop up on some list unless they are otherwise looking for you or you get flagged for structuring. I think if a teller asked me where my $12K cash came from, I'd get a new bank. I withdraw and deposit large amounts of cash. It could be that my small regional bank knows me and I don't get any questions. I moved from my last bank because anytime you withdrew $3-5K in cash, it had to be signed by 2 or 3 people and took forever. Similarly to an earlier poster, I play poker so people dealing in large amount of cash isn't unusual.

If I was concerned though, I'd just keep the cash and slowly spend it.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:18 am

vtjon wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
There's a difference between a CTR (Currency Transaction Report) and a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report). Neither of these go to the IRS as far as I know. A CTR is filed anytime there is more than $10K in cash transacted. I'd bet nearly every medium to large car dealer in the country generates multiple of these a day. The volume of CTRs means you aren't going to all of sudden pop up on some list unless they are otherwise looking for you or you get flagged for structuring. I think if a teller asked me where my $12K cash came from, I'd get a new bank. I withdraw and deposit large amounts of cash. It could be that my small regional bank knows me and I don't get any questions. I moved from my last bank because anytime you withdrew $3-5K in cash, it had to be signed by 2 or 3 people and took forever. Similarly to an earlier poster, I play poker so people dealing in large amount of cash isn't unusual.

If I was concerned though, I'd just keep the cash and slowly spend it.
yes ...

just do not do anything to avoid a ctr - such as smaller amounts over several days or at different branches of your bank.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by NextMil » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:25 am

vtjon wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
There's a difference between a CTR (Currency Transaction Report) and a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report). Neither of these go to the IRS as far as I know.
They do, they go to FINCEN, which is shared across a number of agencies including IRS.

jaqueisse
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by jaqueisse » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:54 am

Just a heads up I deposited 1450 in a bank account yesterday, computer flagged it, they asked for my ID, address, etc. I googled why and apparently its quite widespread across many banks, perhaps in case I deposit slightly more later on, they are monitoring for structuring. I would read about this and your particular bank before you decide just to drop the money there

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by SouthernCPA » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:08 pm

Just deposit the money all at once, answer the questions the banker will ask you about where it came from and move on. You and your grandmother have done nothing illegal here and there is nothing to be worried about. Some of you are way too paranoid.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by MichCPA » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:19 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 pm
Gill wrote:Celia, not good advice. You are advocating structuring which is a crime.
Gill
Suggesting she hold onto it for herself is good advice, if you don't know her financial affairs. Are you referring to her depositing her own money in stages???
Yes, that is a federal crime.
First of all, just make the deposit. I have had to shift over 10,000 between accounts a couple of times, so I know that reports have been generated. Almost all of the time, nothing will happen.

However, money laundering is a crime and staging is just an indicator. Splitting totally legal money across two deposits, much less illegal.

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dm200
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:29 pm

MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:19 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 pm
Gill wrote:Celia, not good advice. You are advocating structuring which is a crime.
Gill
Suggesting she hold onto it for herself is good advice, if you don't know her financial affairs. Are you referring to her depositing her own money in stages???
Yes, that is a federal crime.
First of all, just make the deposit. I have had to shift over 10,000 between accounts a couple of times, so I know that reports have been generated. Almost all of the time, nothing will happen.

However, money laundering is a crime and staging is just an indicator. Splitting totally legal money across two deposits, much less illegal.
"Structuring" to avoid CTR reporting is a problem.

MichCPA
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by MichCPA » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 pm

dm200 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:29 pm
MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:19 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 pm
Gill wrote:Celia, not good advice. You are advocating structuring which is a crime.
Gill
Suggesting she hold onto it for herself is good advice, if you don't know her financial affairs. Are you referring to her depositing her own money in stages???
Yes, that is a federal crime.
First of all, just make the deposit. I have had to shift over 10,000 between accounts a couple of times, so I know that reports have been generated. Almost all of the time, nothing will happen.

However, money laundering is a crime and staging is just an indicator. Splitting totally legal money across two deposits, much less illegal.
"Structuring" to avoid CTR reporting is a problem.
If it is done to conceal illegal activity.

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dm200
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:43 pm

MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:29 pm
MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:19 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 pm
Suggesting she hold onto it for herself is good advice, if you don't know her financial affairs. Are you referring to her depositing her own money in stages???
Yes, that is a federal crime.
First of all, just make the deposit. I have had to shift over 10,000 between accounts a couple of times, so I know that reports have been generated. Almost all of the time, nothing will happen.
However, money laundering is a crime and staging is just an indicator. Splitting totally legal money across two deposits, much less illegal.
"Structuring" to avoid CTR reporting is a problem.
If it is done to conceal illegal activity.
"Structuring" - no matter how innocent - if detected by the financial institution will almost always cause the filing of a SAR.

straws46
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by straws46 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:46 pm

Someone mentioned that structuring is only a crime if there is intent. While that is correct as far as it goes, it does not mean there must be intent to launder money. The only intent that is required is the intent to avoid filing out a Suspicious Activity Report. There is absolutely nothing wrong with filling out a SAR if you deposit a large sum of cash. Never try to avoid the requirement. It is a felony and a federal offense.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:48 pm

straws46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:46 pm
Someone mentioned that structuring is only a crime if there is intent. While that is correct as far as it goes, it does not mean there must be intent to launder money. The only intent that is required is the intent to avoid filing out a Suspicious Activity Report. There is absolutely nothing wrong with filling out a SAR if you deposit a large sum of cash. Never try to avoid the requirement. It is a felony and a federal offense.
Yes - I am in certain aspects of this kind of business - and this is my understanding as well.

straws46
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by straws46 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:26 pm

I misspoke above. Should have said Currency Transaction Report rather than Suspicious Activity Report.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:37 pm

^^^ You can edit your post using the "pencil" icon in the top-right corner. Use the strikeout "s" icon in the editing toolbar.

For example: Suspicious Activity Report Currency Transaction Report
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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dm200
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by dm200 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:39 pm

straws46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:26 pm
I misspoke above. Should have said Currency Transaction Report rather than Suspicious Activity Report.
right.. that is what I thought you meant ... :happy

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:05 pm

MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:29 pm
MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:19 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm
celia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 pm

Suggesting she hold onto it for herself is good advice, if you don't know her financial affairs. Are you referring to her depositing her own money in stages???
Yes, that is a federal crime.
First of all, just make the deposit. I have had to shift over 10,000 between accounts a couple of times, so I know that reports have been generated. Almost all of the time, nothing will happen.

However, money laundering is a crime and staging is just an indicator. Splitting totally legal money across two deposits, much less illegal.
"Structuring" to avoid CTR reporting is a problem.
If it is done to conceal illegal activity.
Structuring IS illegal activity. It is illegal to structure deposits to avoid the reporting requirements. Even if you got the money in a legal way, from the nicest little old lady on the planet. Even if you got the money for helping her across the street. For whatever reason you structure your transactions to avoid the CTR, the fact that you structured it to avoid the CTR is the problem, not where the money came from.

MichCPA
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by MichCPA » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:36 pm

NotWhoYouThink wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:05 pm
MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 pm
dm200 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:29 pm
MichCPA wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:19 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:26 pm


Yes, that is a federal crime.
First of all, just make the deposit. I have had to shift over 10,000 between accounts a couple of times, so I know that reports have been generated. Almost all of the time, nothing will happen.

However, money laundering is a crime and staging is just an indicator. Splitting totally legal money across two deposits, much less illegal.
"Structuring" to avoid CTR reporting is a problem.
If it is done to conceal illegal activity.
Structuring IS illegal activity. It is illegal to structure deposits to avoid the reporting requirements. Even if you got the money in a legal way, from the nicest little old lady on the planet. Even if you got the money for helping her across the street. For whatever reason you structure your transactions to avoid the CTR, the fact that you structured it to avoid the CTR is the problem, not where the money came from.
The point that is being missed is that there is no requirement to to make a single deposit (or any deposit). You could deposit $7,500 then hold the other $7,500 indefinitely. Second of all, as a practical matter, this isn't going to be prosecuted without another crime involved. The only way this becomes an issue is if it can be proven you are trying to avoid CTR, which is nearly impossible to establish if there isn't a motive. Another crime is typically the motive. The issue is circumventing the CTR not making multiple deposits in and of itself. It is also unlikely that a SAR would be filed for two transactions totaling $15,000, which would likely be the triggering event for an investigation. The fact pattern just doesn't support the type of open and shut case being implied.

All of that being said, make the single deposit.

JackoC
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by JackoC » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:27 pm

NextMil wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:49 am
JackoC wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:08 am
NextMil wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:26 pm
Nonsense. There has to be a nefarious intent when structuring or smurfing. She isn’t laundering money or committing a financial crime.
There is an intent element. 'Structuring' is a dangerously ambiguous concept, undermining the basic idea that criminal laws should be clear. However it's the law for now, so I'd say avoid practices which could look like it if possible.

However I accept the point others have made that there isn't zero risk doing it by the book either.

Just keeping some of the money to spend in lieu of paychecks for awhile is another possibility (in case of not much over $10k).
Yet, it actually isn't anymore. IRS WAS pursuing cases to drive up numbers to look good, and clearly went about it in the worst possible way. Once light was shed on the issue it has been reformed. We all need to do a little more research and spend less time fashioning our tinfoil hats.
In 2014, the IRS changed its policy so that it would only pursue illegal source income in structuring cases unless there are “exceptional circumstances.” In 2016, after two congressional hearings on this program, Criminal Investigations also began a process of notifying approximately 1,800 property owners who had funds forfeited in this program, inviting them to send in petitions for return of their funds.
More info is better than less, though that quote has a grammatical problem which makes it hard to interpret 'only pursue unless' ? Anyway it doesn't change my opinion about the hierarchy of options:
-deposit less than $10k and spend the rest on normal things (this is what I would do, though it partly depends how fast you normally spend cash and how safely you believe you can keep it, I consider our risk of burglary/robbery very low based on evidence living one place for multi-decades)
or
-deposit the whole amount above $10k and simply answer truthfully any follow up inquiries. There is not likely to be any problem with that, though OTOH though it's not 100% gteed no problem.
but
-do not break it up into <$10k deposits at the same bank over time or different banks at the same time. Even if the convoluted quote you gave (not your fault, the govt is not well known as a font of clear information) says they'd only go after you in 'extraordinary circumstances' if they found out, but I still don't see a good reason to do it. And the authorities can and have singled people out as 'extraordinary' for questionable reasons. I won't derail going further on that except to say it's demonstrably not impossible for that to happen.

LITeacher
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by LITeacher » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:30 pm

Thanks for so many replies. I had gone to bed last night and the went right to work today so I haven’t seen all the replies until logging in now! Some interesting discussions here for sure. After reading them all, I think I am going to have my grandmother deposit all of her money and simply write a check to me (and my cousins who will also be getting a 10-15k gift).

My grandmother’s bank will fill out the paperwork since it is a large deposit in the 65-70k range, but she’s been to the bank at least 15 times in the past four weeks, depositing life insurance money, pension checks from my grandfather, as well as checks from other banks since she closed many accounts down and consolidated it all into Chase. If she happens to be contacted by the IRS, I am sure her activity will not look very different from other 90+ year olds who have lost a spouse.

libralibra
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by libralibra » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:36 pm

Please see if your grandma can send you a photo of a few of the bills, and at least compare to what you see on ebay. 1920s and 1930s bills will have some collectible value. Could be .5x to 10x over face.

If she were able to sell them to a coin dealer, the cash issue resolves itself, although then she'd have to pay some collectible capital gains tax on the profit (28%).

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by Gill » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:54 pm

libralibra wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:36 pm

If she were able to sell them to a coin dealer, the cash issue resolves itself, although then she'd have to pay some collectible capital gains tax on the profit (28%).
Don’t forget there would be a stepup in basis.
Gill

libralibra
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by libralibra » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:56 pm

Gill wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:54 pm
libralibra wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:36 pm

If she were able to sell them to a coin dealer, the cash issue resolves itself, although then she'd have to pay some collectible capital gains tax on the profit (28%).
Don’t forget there would be a stepup in basis.
Gill
oh, that's right! 👍

NextMil
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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by NextMil » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:09 pm

I am going to start depositing $100 cash once a week for 100 weeks into my bank account.

Hopefully they will allow me to log on to my BH account from the hoosegow.

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by The Wizard » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:13 pm

NextMil wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:09 pm
I am going to start depositing $100 cash once a week for 100 weeks into my bank account.

Hopefully they will allow me to log on to my BH account from the hoosegow.
Yer asking fer trouble, m'boy.
The Feds will be on this like a fly on...uh...honey...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: Depositing Cash if it was gifted?

Post by HoleInTheAir » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:20 pm

I was in a similar position somewhat recently. I just used the cash for normal spending, and redirected the equivalent that I would have used into a taxable account. Just be disciplined with it, and don't spend money you wouldn't normally. Use it for gas and groceries for 6 months.

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