Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

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birdy
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Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by birdy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:56 pm

Mr. Money Mustache: What Everybody Is Getting Wrong About FIRE
I just read his last post!!!! It just hit home to me like nothing else has! I am going to borrow his saying "A Millionaire is made 10 bucks at a time". His explanation of FIRE was just so fantastic that I literally almost cried! This is how I have lived my own life and have tried to share with my own extended family members. Living a happy life no matter how much money you have should be the goal for everyone. Was I just as happy with going on road trips and camping along the way with little money spent! Yes I was! Am I happy I can go to Antarctica next year---yes I am! I was a Boglehead as a teen, before I had "officially" heard about Bogleheads or FIRE. There has always been something inside me that disliked extravagant spending on things that were only to prove to others you were doing well. The old fable of the ants toiling to put away food for winter has always made perfect sense to me. It has always amazed me that the goal of so many people was to be a millionaire period. They didn't realize that money is a tool which allows you to follow you dreams. Not have to work a job you hate or to be able to slow down and have the time to just enjoy family and friendships. These are what I cherish in my life. I am being overly sentimental I know, but I hope everyone has a chance to read his latest post.


birdy

Momus
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by Momus » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:12 pm

I'm always frugal since birth, I don't need a blog to tell me that. I like to hoard $ and invest; it's like a hobby.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by livesoft » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:19 pm

It's probably better to have a Stealth Mustache.
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JoMoney
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by JoMoney » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:22 pm

Here's a link since the OP didn't provide one
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/ ... -movement/
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

randybobandy
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by randybobandy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:24 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:22 pm
Here's a link since the OP didn't provide one
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/ ... -movement/
Thank you very much.

UpperNwGuy
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by UpperNwGuy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:25 pm

To each his own. My friends consider me to be frugal, but I'm not in the same league as the followers of Mr Money Mustache, and I want to keep it that way.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by aj76er » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:33 pm

livesoft wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:19 pm
It's probably better to have a Stealth Mustache.
+1
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by GoldenFinch » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:40 pm

It made me happy just to read your post which is bursting at the seams with happiness. I too was happy when broke and happy when not. Most everything that makes me happy on a daily basis has zero to do with money.

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JoMoney
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by JoMoney » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:59 pm

randybobandy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:24 pm
JoMoney wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:22 pm
Here's a link since the OP didn't provide one
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/ ... -movement/
Thank you very much.
Welcome to the forum.
Tell Mr. Lahey hello.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

MinhN
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by MinhN » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:00 pm

Of course. It couldn't be more obvious. Are we just accumulating wealth for the sake of it?

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by JBTX » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:06 pm

A big problem for me is the use of the term "Retirement" in FIRE. In the context of "Financial Independence" I think it all makes lots of sense. Saving money and living frugally to give you more options in life is a great message. But retirement as a word tends to mean to stop working, and the infatuation with not working by some seems excessive.

I also tend to wonder in a protracted market crash situation how some who decided to retire at 35 will feel. It is true that their frugal habits and self sufficiency will be a plus, but the realization that most of your assets are gone and you have 20 years to social security seems to me to be fairly stressful. Sure, You can go back to work (although that may not be as easy as it seems, trying to get a job during a market crash can be challenging),but if your backup plan for a financial crash is to go back to work, then IMO you shouldn't be "retiring". However, choosing an alternative and more fulfulling way to generate an income stream is perfectly appropriate.

I think saying you should only do something in "retirement" that you would do for free is simplistic. You can find things that can be fulfilling that given the choice up front you might not choose to do. Sometimes doing what we "choose" to do isn't the most fulfilling either.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by HomerJ » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:20 pm

Sorry, I don't like his latest post very much at all.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10 ... -movement/

Some things he gets right... Others, not so much.
1: This is ALL WINNING and there are NO DOWNSIDES

If you think there is even the slightest flaw with the ideas behind FIRE, you’re probably just not understanding it correctly. Because the whole reason for doing any of this is to lead the happiest, most satisfying life you can possibly lead.

Sure, there are a few tricks behind the curtain – I’m going to make you occasionally tackle some moderately difficult stuff instead of the lazy, easy things you are accustomed to doing. But this too is a win, because a lazy life is a sad, depressed, unsatisfying life.
Right off the bat, he comes across as self-centered jerk.

There are trade-offs for everything. Of course there are downsides. Occasionally tackling some moderately difficult stuff is a downside. He doesn't get to decide for everyone what makes a satisfying life. He likes crawling around under his house for hours working on stuff to save money. I don't. (And he probably won't like it either when he is 80).

There are upsides and downsides to all plans.
3: FIRE Is Not Really About Early Retirement
I do agree with this. It's really about the FI part. Then you're free to do what you want, which sometimes includes making bits of money doing something you enjoy.
5: You Can Be Happy on ANY Level of Spending
I mostly agree with this. Except there IS a floor. ANY is incorrect. I would not be happy spending $1000 a year. I'd be hungry, not happy.

6: It Doesn’t Depend on A Booming Stock Market

I started this blog soon after the crash of 2009. Now we’re in the boom of 2018. Another market crash of epic proportions is coming sometime, probably pretty soon.

Our uninformed opponents think that FIRE-style early retirees are extra vulnerable to this. But in reality, it’s just the opposite: we are on a safe island, far above the choppy seas of the everyday economy. Because here’s how it really works:

We have low and easily controlled expenses – remember, we got here precisely by being good at controlling our spending.
Most of the FIRE people do not have room to cut back. They are already cutting expenses to the bone. That's why they were able to quit EARLY.

If they are following the 4% rule, it doesn't depend on a booming stock market, true. But 4% was designed around 30-year retirements, not 50-year and 60-year retirements. I am curious to see what happens to the FIRE community when the next 50% crash happens.
7: Education, Health Care, or High Cost of Living areas are Comically Tiny Obstacles

FIRE is simply about making smart decisions with your spending so that you waste less money. This means that you have way more money available to work with.
This is false. They have LESS money to work with. They retire as soon as they have enough to cover the bare expenses. That's the whole point. Get your monthly expenses super low, as soon as you get 25x those expenses, you can FIRE! But that doesn't leave a buffer for education for your kids or unforseen health care issues.
8: The Only Thing To Fear, is Fear Itself

In the interview, Suze Orman goes on and on about what might go wrong, and how you need an incredible amount of money saved to protect you, just in case. But this thinking is completely backwards – money will not cure your fear, as megamillionaire Suze proves so clearly.

If you are afraid of what might happen in the future, you have a mental problem rather than a financial problem. So you should work on that first, by training your mind and body:

Start each day with at least a one mile brisk outdoor walk – before you even attempt to work. This drastically improves your hormonal balance and reduces stress and fear.
Read books about managing stress and learn about meditation using something like Headspace or Camp Calm.
Completely avoid the daily news cycle, especially on TV or radio. If you insist on being a world events junkie, just read the Economist once per week. Focus on optimistic sources of information – like this blog!
Seek out and hang out with more optimistic friends. Remove negative or gossipy friends from your daily life.
So his advice is "Just don't worry about anything that might go wrong!"

That's pretty crappy advice.

I agree that Suze may take it too far, and it can be self-defeating to worry about every single possible problem, but a run every morning and meditation isn't going to help if an emergency comes up, and you don't have the money to pay for it.

Money absolutely can cure some fears. Just ignoring all potential future financial issues by hanging out with optimistic friends is not the answer.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by hdas » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:27 pm

what is remarkable is that according to the new yorker profile, he makes 400k year from his blog. H
....

randybobandy
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by randybobandy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:27 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:59 pm
randybobandy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:24 pm
JoMoney wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:22 pm
Here's a link since the OP didn't provide one
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/ ... -movement/
Thank you very much.
Welcome to the forum.
Tell Mr. Lahey hello.
I'm impressed with you catching that...after registering I realized my name reads as randy bob andy and not Randy Bo Bandy. Silly me. Nice Graham quote, he's intelligent.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by chessknt » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:29 pm

His post didn't strike you as annoyingly cocksure or arrogant? Did you read point 8? Have you ever met someone who was born with a debilitating congenital condition or a social situation like 2 kids single parent poor social support and imagine their response to this?

Also how does he expect retired people to afford healthcare in this country if they don't get subsidies that completely rely on tax revenues he isn't contributing to? That doesn't strike anyone as unsustainable?

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JoMoney
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by JoMoney » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:35 pm

chessknt wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:29 pm
...Also how does he expect retired people to afford healthcare in this country if they don't get subsidies that completely rely on tax revenues he isn't contributing to? That doesn't strike anyone as unsustainable?
The cost of healthcare rising faster that inflation...incomes...GDP...everything... strikes me as unsustainable, for everyone, regardless if we try to shift the burden socially.
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by Abe » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:36 pm

I wouldn't enjoy an extravagant life style. It's just not my thing. Yet, I want to have enough money so that I don't have to worry about paying the bills, and if I want to do something extravagant every now and then, I can. Picasso said: "I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money." :beer
Last edited by Abe on Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by DesertDiva » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:41 pm

hdas wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:27 pm
what is remarkable is that according to the new yorker profile, he makes 400k year from his blog. H
Well, isn't that ironic! So much for the "FI" (or the "RE" for that matter).

chessknt
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by chessknt » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:52 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:35 pm
chessknt wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:29 pm
...Also how does he expect retired people to afford healthcare in this country if they don't get subsidies that completely rely on tax revenues he isn't contributing to? That doesn't strike anyone as unsustainable?
The cost of healthcare rising faster that inflation...incomes...GDP...everything... strikes me as unsustainable, for everyone, regardless if we try to shift the burden socially.
Sure but utilizing subsidies intended for low income individuals to enable retirement at an age 35 years before the income social net projections rely on surely accelerates that problem no?

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by furikake » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:53 pm

I think he shouldn't keep using "FIRE," he should just be talking about FI. There is nothing about RE that he's preaching at all since he's still working, and he is encouraging everyone to keep working on stuff they enjoy which is not a bad thing, but it is not RE. And the part about health care, unrealistic, just uproot and move to another state or another country?! Can I just move to another country just like that?! I'd love to move to Canada, will they take me? Can someone who's a Canadian citizen adopt me please?! :P

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by HomerJ » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:55 pm

furikake wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:53 pm
And the part about health care, unrealistic, just uproot and move to another state or another country?! Can I just move to another country just like that?! I'd love to move to Canada, will they take me? Can someone who's a Canadian citizen adopt me please?! :P
Most countries require you to have a job to move there and become a citizen.
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by lostdog » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:29 pm

So much resentment bleeding from this thread. Wow!

Golden handcuffs syndrome?
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by Nate79 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:32 pm

LOL. It's just humorous watching BH discuss FIRE and MMM.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by BanquetBeer » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:36 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:55 pm
furikake wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:53 pm
And the part about health care, unrealistic, just uproot and move to another state or another country?! Can I just move to another country just like that?! I'd love to move to Canada, will they take me? Can someone who's a Canadian citizen adopt me please?! :P
Most countries require you to have a job to move there and become a citizen.
Moving costs quite a bit of money.. but I supposed if you don’t own anything taking a bus to your new destination and pitching a tent can be pretty cheap. For most normal people it’s probably a 10-15k ordeal (double that if you own a house), not some casual affair for someone living on 50k/yr.

Y’all are taking him too seriously. He is representing his brand and is going to make money on causing controversy. Similar to Suzie; they are both getting eyeballs from this disagreement. At this point they should just start political parties because that’s where we are: each go further to the opposite side and whip up people into how they are absolutely right and the other side is absolutely wrong.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by sreynard » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:48 pm

lostdog wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:29 pm
So much resentment bleeding from this thread. Wow!

Golden handcuffs syndrome?
Wow indeed. You would wonder why they read it if it causes them such distress? :shock:

SoAnyway
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by SoAnyway » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:19 pm

OP, not to ask a stupid question, but.... Is there anything actionable in your initial post?? :confused
SoAnyway...
furikake wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:53 pm
I think he shouldn't keep using "FIRE," he should just be talking about FI. There is nothing about RE that he's preaching at all since he's still working, and he is encouraging everyone to keep working on stuff they enjoy which is not a bad thing, but it is not RE.
I agree, furikake. To his credit, MMM makes this point in #3 of his post. However, being the shrewd businessman that he is, he understands that he has to speak to the portion of his following that doesn't want to work.

Obviously, MMM is still working. He's not "retired" at all. He might have 'retired' from whatever day job he used to have in the traditional W-2 workplace, but he's a hard-working SAHD and a hard-working blogger. That's not "retired". For FIREes (or FIRE hopefuls) who say that Peyton Manning or those collecting military pensions while working in the private sector now are "retired", I'd say the same: They are not "retired" in the sense of not working; they've left one career behind and are now pursuing paid work of another type.

To put it another way, my 55yo Lyft driver last week told me he was laid off at age 53 from his megacorp C-suite finance job and took the "early retirement" package they offered him. He had lived a frugal life and didn't have to work (i.e. he was "FI"), and so he decided to retire (i.e. stop working for pay). After 6 months, he decided that he had "failed retirement". So he's now working as a Lyft driver and having interesting conversations with passengers like me. ; ) He's not retired; he's working. But he IS financially independent. In his mind (and mine), when he's no longer working for pay, he'll be "retired". Early? On-time? Late? Who cares?

As another poster here mentioned in another thread, it would be helpful in these discussions to have a uniform definition of "retired". Conveniently enough, the IRS (which we all as taxpayers fund) offers one: If you are eligible to contribute to an IRA - Roth or traditional - you are not retired. If you are ineligible, you are retired. Period. Full stop.

As best I can tell, the FI part of the FIRE movement is very consistent with BH principles of LBYM, frugality, saving, investing in low-cost vehicles, etc. etc. Things get a bit kludgy when we get to the "RE" part, since it means different things to different people both within the FIRE community and outside of it. Given how the nature of employment has changed in a few short decades, I applaud the FIRE folks who are laser-focused on the FI piece. It's a necessity in today's world. I believe the "RE" piece does a disservice to those not earning $400K+ annually from blogging or what-have-you while downplaying the level of hard work/grit that goes into earning FI - It makes it look easy when it's not. It's a worthwhile endeavor, but not easy. We'll see what happens when the next downturn comes.

Bottom line: There's much to admire in the FI piece. Truthfully, the acronym should have been something more like "FITE-WIGE". (Financially Independent of Traditional Employment - Working In the Gig Economy) Yeah, yeah, I know....It's lacks pizazz, it's not catchy or sexy the way that "FIRE" is, hahaha....
Last edited by SoAnyway on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by 2015 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:30 pm

What? No spreadsheets, no charts, no graphs? Not a link to anybody who is "well-respected" or "one of the good guys"? No marketing disguised as "financial information"? No link to the latest discharge from a "financial" blogger, author, speaker, etc.? No academic, "expert", latest "paper", "research", or other theory quoted? This thread has no business here.

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bogleblitz
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by bogleblitz » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:33 pm

the article made it to marketwatch https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mr-mo ... 2018-10-05

Looks like he writes for marketwatch too now? Also the bad language c*$% is in the marketwatch article as well.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by Cycle » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:34 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:20 pm

I agree that Suze may take it too far, and it can be self-defeating to worry about every single possible problem, but a run every morning and meditation isn't going to help if an emergency comes up, and you don't have the money to pay for it.
I'd recommend listening to the podcast of the Suze Orman interview on Afford Anything. It's the most entertaining thing I've heard in weeks. I think Suze spent a little too much time talking to Wilson on her private island because she doesn't appear to have a grasp on middle class workers wages and costs of living, and what a lifetime of saving will produce.

I'm a 65-70% net saver, highish income, have been making all my retirement accounts since I was 24 (maxing Roth since 22 and also contributing to 401k) and won't individually achieve by 65 the 10MM she recommends for retirement.

I don't think I'd be taking any big risks retiring at 45 with a 1.2% SAWR and a paid off house, and plenty of hobbies and skills I want to develop in retirement.

Suze thinks that would be the biggest mistake of my life, financially (her words in the podcast on FIRE) and uses lots of anecdotal examples of people falling on hard times who weren't properly insured.

"2MM is nothing, it's pennies". No Suze, 2MM is pennies to someone with 50MM in the bank, to us it provides enough passive income to cover my health insurance, long term care insurance, food, travel, and taxes on our paid off house.
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by DesertDiva » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:37 pm

SoAnyway wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:19 pm
OP, not to ask a stupid question, but.... Is there anything actionable in your initial post?? :confused
I suspect this is click-bait for the MMM website.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by Momus » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:41 pm

hdas wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:27 pm
what is remarkable is that according to the new yorker profile, he makes 400k year from his blog. H
It's at least double or triple that now.

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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by bungalow10 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:49 pm

DH and I have been extremely happy when struggling to get by (struggling more than I think we even realized at the time). We have been happy when flush with cash. We have been happy when the decisions to be frugal have given us options... we have managed to be happy when the results of those decisions backed us into a corner... ugh, but yeah, we made it work.

We are in a very fortunate/unfortunate situation coming back from an overseas assignment, but one that found us house poor, incurring huge moving costs, buying two cars, etc. "Camping" (our container took 6 1/2 weeks to get to the US) in a huge HCOL house we could barely afford with three kids starting school midyear.... living like we were broke again (which we were for a few months until work and life worked itself out)... and we were happy.

I love my work, I love where it takes me. It brought me and my family "here" and we will be happy "here"... wherever that is. I think we've proven we can live at the ends of the spectrum and make it work.
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Re: Mr. Money Mustache is the BOMB!

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:17 pm

This thread has run its course and is locked (topic exhausted, no added value to continue). See: Locked Topics
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