I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

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inbox788
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by inbox788 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:54 pm

livesoft wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:55 pm
...So far we spent an entire football game working on this. If I was billing out my hours for this, I would charge over $500 for this service. Who would pay $500 in order to get less than $200? I can see how a Vanguard CSR would just want to throw up their hands for working on some of these rollovers.

I'll update as this rollover rolls along.

Bottom line: Try to do rollovers of small accounts as soon as possible before you forget all the details. And don't get rid of your land line until you have all your old accounts in order and can update the phone number on them.
Lovely. They created these processes to comply with a bunch of regulations and are doing so for your protection. There's no such thing as too much security and they can't be too careful can they? But if there was $200,000 or $2,000,000 in the account, you'd definitely want them to be more careful. And if they made it too easy to transfer out amounts less than $200 or $2000, someone in Nigeria will write a script to drain all those the accounts and run away with millions. Can't win this game.

Avoid these small accounts whenever possible and that's good advice so take care of them ASAP.

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watchnerd
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by watchnerd » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:05 pm

There is no way I'd waste more than 30 minutes on trying to recoup $200.

I'd just walk away from it, like others said, and wait for it to fall in the hands of the state.
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livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:09 pm

watchnerd wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:05 pm
There is no way I'd waste more than 30 minutes on trying to recoup $200.

I'd just walk away from it, like others said, and wait for it to fall in the hands of the state.
Hmmm, that suggests a new way to benefit charities: Instead of donating an old car that one wants to get rid of, but doesn't want to bother with dealing with, one can donate an old retirement account that is too hard to recover any value from. Maybe a charity can recover the value somehow?
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watchnerd
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by watchnerd » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:11 pm

livesoft wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:09 pm
watchnerd wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:05 pm
There is no way I'd waste more than 30 minutes on trying to recoup $200.

I'd just walk away from it, like others said, and wait for it to fall in the hands of the state.
Hmmm, that suggests a new way to benefit charities: Instead of donating an old car that one wants to get rid of, but doesn't want to bother with dealing with, one can donate an old retirement account that is too hard to recover any value from. Maybe a charity can recover the value somehow?
That is an amazingly awesome idea!
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sergeant
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by sergeant » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:42 pm

Dearest Brother-In- Law, for all the pleasure that you have brought me through the years I have bequeathed you my inactive TIAA 403b account.
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livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:14 pm

sergeant wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:42 pm
Dearest Brother-In- Law, for all the pleasure that you have brought me through the years I have bequeathed you my inactive TIAA 403b account.
I don't think that works. You'd have to change the beneficiary on the 403(b) account which will take FOREVER plus FOREVER to get done, so you won't do it.
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finite_difference
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by finite_difference » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:25 am

TheDDC wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:05 pm
livesoft,

I actually had to do a rollover from an Ameriprise 403(b) from an old employer (which also used TSACG as TPA) to a Fidelity 403(b) with a different TPA. Ameriprise is arguably an even worse brokerage than TIAA in terms of paperwork. However, I have managed to do two successful rollovers from TSACG to a new TPA this year using this method. Here's what I did:

1) Initiate phone call with receiving brokerage and TPA. Since these entities are eager to get your money they are by far the best to deal with.

2) Fill out forms for both TIAA and receiving brokerage. No signature other than yours and the receiving TPA should be needed. In my case the receiving TPA gave me a certificate to include in my packet which essentially is the signature.

3) Run completed forms past your receiving brokerage to verify all is needed to proceed. I did this via scan to email with Fidelity.

4) Once receiving brokerage approves, scan or fax a letter with special instructions to said brokerage telling them to fax the completed paperwork (including receiving TPA cert) to TSACG and TIAA.

At this point once this went through my losing brokerage sent me a form letter saying they need authorization from the former TPA (TSACG). However, this was due to be processing lag from TSACG. Once they fulfilled the faxed request the wheels started turning and Amerprise sold the shares and mailed a paper check to Fidelity.

I know YMMV but TSACG will do what they are supposed to. I cannot stress the need to be in constant communication with Vanguard on this and also to fax your packet to both the losing TPA and TIAA simultaneously. If Vanguard can transmit the fax on your behalf, even better.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

-TheDDC
Sounds about right.

Did you actually manage to fill out the Ameriprise forms yourself? The form I was required to submit was basically impossible to complete without training. So to fill out the form you had to call Ameriprise (voice menu + hold...), and have a representative walk you through how to fill it out. The rep was helpful, but of course they wouldn’t do it for you. You’d think for the years of ER they’d at least be willing to fill out a form for you.

And the form was one of those fancy PDFs that did not work unless you used a recent version of Adobe Reader. And you had to make sure you used the latest version of the form, since older versions were not valid.
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Bfwolf
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by Bfwolf » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:13 pm

livesoft wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:01 am
tuningfork wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:49 am
For $200 I would go the easiest route possible. If she's over 59.5 can't she just withdraw it?
She is over 59.5 and she is taking the easiest possible route. In service rollovers are not allowed, so she has to show she hasn't worked at this place in years and will not work at this place again.
But tuningfork isn't suggesting an in service rollover. He's saying just withdraw it and pay the taxes. Surely that is allowed by someone over 59.5 regardless of whether they are still employed or not?

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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:50 am

Bfwolf wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:13 pm
But tuningfork isn't suggesting an in service rollover. He's saying just withdraw it and pay the taxes. Surely that is allowed by someone over 59.5 regardless of whether they are still employed or not?
I got that. Nope, it is not "Surely", but depends on the specific plan. For instance, my spouse's plan does not allow in-service rollovers, but my plan did.

And in-service withdrawals use the same forms that have to be faxed to same TPA. It is just a different check box on the same form.

Consider this: My spouse's particular rollover involves many human beings all doing the right thing in a timely fashion. Yes, there are computer networks involved, but even so every time someone has to "touch a piece of paper" or "read an e-mail" is a time for a screw-up or a slow down. There are at least 5 different entities involved:

Spouse wants rollover.
Contact TIAA (1) who says "You need forms not provided by TIAA, but provided by TPA filled out."
Her spouse (2) finds forms, fills them out for her.
Fax forms to TPA (3). Wait for TPA to ...
TPA contacts former employer (4) to find out if person eligible for rollover or withdrawal.
TPA has to wait for former employer to respond.
TPA contacts TIAA that things are legit or if there is a problem.
TIAA cuts check and sends to Vanguard (5). [If this had been a withdrawal, then check comes to the house.]
Vanguard minion needs to do the right thing with the check, but I expect no problem with that.

In contrast, I did a 401(k) rollover with a 5 minute phone call: Sit in TDAmeritrade office. Call Fidelity together. "The check is in the mail." Deposit check from Fidelity a few days later.
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Snuffycuts99
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by Snuffycuts99 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:12 pm

Well, I'm already finding that the process is a royal pain. I called Vanguard to check on the status of our 403b rollover, and they told me that they were waiting on a response from TSA consulting. So I called TSA consulting and they said they haven't received anything from Vanguard. I really hate that Vanguard has the Newport group deal with their 403b. Another third party to deal with. So now I have to call Vanguard (or Newport) tomorrow and tell them to do their job, again...albeit, correctly, this time. Unless they did and TSA is incorrect. Ugghhh

livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:59 pm

@Snuffycuts99 (!?), I'm sorry to read about your problems.

My spouse did fax documents that I filled out for her to TSACG last week. She got an e-mail from them that they had received documents.

For my spouse's rollover, TSACG sent this e-mail to my spouse today:
Documents submitted for the above indicated transaction have been processed and will be forwarded to the investment product provider or selected agency, as instructed. Subsequent questions regarding this transaction should be directed to your financial advisor and/or investment provider.
It doesn't say if things were approved or denied. Nor does it say when the forwarding will happen. Let's check what TIAA.org has now. Looks like some change there, too:
In Process. Payment Date 9/25/2018.
So things are looking good on our end. Next up: Does Vanguard get a check from TIAA and what do they do with it?
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chemeng
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by chemeng » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:51 am

I had an interesting experience recently where I initiated a 401(k) rollover from Voya to Fidelity. Voya mailed the check to Fidelity, but to my surprise, about a week later, I received the check in the mail from Fidelity that they could not accept the check because of a missing application. I then discovered that the Fidelity app allows you to take a photo of the check and submit it in the app. The next day, my rollover was posted into Fidelity. Very easy and simple and much quicker than I imagined. No more going to the post office and sending a check via certified mail.

I wonder why institutions can't initiate rollovers electronically to the new institution? In one case, I rolled over an HSA account from PayFlex to HealthEquity, and this was all done fully electronically. No physical checks.

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watchnerd
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by watchnerd » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:03 pm

chemeng wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:51 am
I had an interesting experience recently where I initiated a 401(k) rollover from Voya to Fidelity. Voya mailed the check to Fidelity, but to my surprise, about a week later, I received the check in the mail from Fidelity that they could not accept the check because of a missing application. I then discovered that the Fidelity app allows you to take a photo of the check and submit it in the app. The next day, my rollover was posted into Fidelity. Very easy and simple and much quicker than I imagined. No more going to the post office and sending a check via certified mail.

I wonder why institutions can't initiate rollovers electronically to the new institution? In one case, I rolled over an HSA account from PayFlex to HealthEquity, and this was all done fully electronically. No physical checks.
I don't get this, either.

The whole issuing checks and mailing them is mind boggling in the 21st century.
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an_asker
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by an_asker » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:38 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:01 am
Lucky me, when I was a substitute teacher I had no problems like this because the state in their wisdom automatically and involuntarily enrolled me in a 403(b) program with, IIRC, Great West. I did not have the option of not contributing, and the only investment option was a money market fund (real teachers got real plans). But it wasn't a problem because there was a $25 annual charge, and there was never more than $25 in the plan at the end of the year, so it all got zeroed out every year and no hassles trying to roll it over. Very convenient. Easy-peasy.
How very convenient. I've always said it pays ... to be the middleman!! :oops:

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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by an_asker » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:42 pm

The Wizard wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:40 am
I would have just taken that $200 in cash and paid taxes on it...
This is live"but-pay-no-taxes"soft we're talking about here ;-)

livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:47 pm

Update: Today TIAA online and e-mail says transfer done and the account balance is $0.00. Since the account is sort-of closed with a balance of zero, practically all traces of the transaction are now unavailable. For instance, last night we saw that the money was being sent to a Vanguard P.O. Box, but with the wrong business name. Instead of "Vanguard", the business name was "The College Retirement Plan." That document is no longer available to see online.

I suppose that inside the envelope the check says something like "Vanguard, FBO Mrs. Soft" or something similar, but Mrs. Soft has several accounts at Vanguard, so she will have to see if the money gets into the correct account. Vanguard does not know this check is coming as far as I can tell.
This is live"but-pay-no-taxes"soft we're talking about here ;-)
Hey, it was my spouse's decision not to do a withdrawal, but to do a rollover! ;)
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jpdion
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by jpdion » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:20 pm

Have no fear. I have done transfers of a TIRA, a TSP, 401()k) and a 403(b) to Vanguard. Now that the Vanguard accounts are in a brokerage format all transfers go into the settlement account and can be distributed to your existing accounts (or a new account) as you wish once the check clears. Just be glad you aren't transferring a traditional annuity from TIAA -- we have one of $10k that is rolling over 10% per year for 10 years!

livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:42 pm

^Our Vanguard accounts are NOT all in brokerage format. Some are and some aren't. This check should end up in an old-style account that has not been upgraded to brokerage format.
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sergeant
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by sergeant » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:04 pm

I recently transferred a large sum from my ICMA-RC 457b account to a Vanguard IRA in order to start Roth conversions. Took about a week and there were zero problems.
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Eagle33
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by Eagle33 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:52 am

livesoft wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:42 pm
^Our Vanguard accounts are NOT all in brokerage format. Some are and some aren't. This check should end up in an old-style account that has not been upgraded to brokerage format.
Spouse & I have done 6 rollovers in the past year. Some were to old MF-style account and another was to new brokerage account.

If you supplied the account # for the MF-style account AND the desired mutual fund # then check will buy shares in that mutual fund. If you didn't indicate the desired mutual fund then VG will need to contact you so they know which fund to buy, since the old-style accounts are actually separate account for each fund - just a common front end account # that ties the individual fund accounts together for reporting. Brokerage account is just a single account with funds.
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livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:52 am

^Thanks, good to know. The account number was given, but not the fund number because the online form would not allow it. With these old funds, each fund is in its own account, so it was redundant to have the fund number anyways.

As an aside, I also see that Vanguard.com has changed its web site, so that URLs use ticker symbols instead of fund numbers.
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livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:25 am

It's all done.

My spouse received an e-mail from Vanguard on Monday October 1 that a check had arrived. Online on October 2 showed something pending. This morning October 3 showed the balance in a money market fund with a pseudo-hold until October 8. An exchange order to a bond fund was submitted this morning, so the money should get into the bond fund overnight.

TIAA sent a letter indicating what they had done and it was all correct.

So all done in about 2.5 weeks without any snafus. Not quite forever, sorry for the hype.
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blevine
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by blevine » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:21 pm

I would have asked them to setup monthly payments (RMD) for 2 reasons :

1) If that was the easiest thing to accomplish on their website, to save time.
2) For revenge. Make them spend money on postage for a monthly $1 check :twisted:

Glad it worked out eventually, but I would have had such great satisfaction cashing that monthly check knowing
the absurdity of it !

cusetownusa
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by cusetownusa » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:48 am

Ugh, I just happened to start a transfer yesterday from my wife’s Voya 403b to her Vanguard 403b. When I started I was thinking it would be a simple process but I’m quickly learning it won’t be. One good thing is both 403b are with the same employer but not sure if they makes a difference or not.

So far I have had to complete 3 different forms (Voya, Vanguard/Newport, and OMNI). I will be faxing them in today but not sure if I have filled them out correctly. Some forms are asking for things that don’t exist (ie account number- took me a solid hour before I learned that Newport doesn’t use account numbers) or just not clearly describing what I need to do.

Should be interesting...Wish me luck.

livesoft
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Re: I see now why Rollovers can take FOREVER ....

Post by livesoft » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 am

Good luck! But also don't be afraid to call and get help with filling out any forms. Hold people accountable.
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