401k money missing

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FM23
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:02 pm

401k money missing

Post by FM23 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:10 pm

Help! I recently found out contributions to my 401k are being taken out of my paycheck but the money is never making it into my 401k. My employer has not deposited my 401k contributions at all for 2018. Any suggestions on how to approach my employer regarding this missing money and the missing interest I would have accrued if the money had been deposited correctly?

MNGopher
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by MNGopher » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:59 pm

Wow. Maybe call the vendor where the funds are supposed to being sent. Was this a new account in 2018 or did you have a previous account, and the payments just stopped?

123
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by 123 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:11 pm

You should ask your supervisor when your payroll deductions for 401K contributions will show up in your 401k account.

If this is a small company I would immediately start looking for alternate employment as a contingency. If the response from your supervisor is not satisfactory you should contact your state labor board for further guidance.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.

student
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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: 401k money missing

Post by student » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:27 pm

Mistake happens. Talk to HR. First, I think they probably violated some rules. See https://pocketsense.com/long-employer-d ... 47925.html At my employer, they made a mistake and they made whole by depositing additional fund to compensate the missing out of the stock market gain.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:31 pm

Inquire with your state of residence's Department of Labor.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

TropikThunder
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by TropikThunder » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:38 pm

FM23 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:10 pm
Help! I recently found out contributions to my 401k are being taken out of my paycheck but the money is never making it into my 401k. My employer has not deposited my 401k contributions at all for 2018. Any suggestions on how to approach my employer regarding this missing money and the missing interest I would have accrued if the money had been deposited correctly?
You only just recently checked this account for the first time in 2018, that's what, 18 paychecks? I've heard of set it and forget it, but ....

I assume you set up your account at the 401k custodian (selected investments, etc) as opposed to leaving things in the default target fund. Is there a possibility that you're looking in the wrong place (wrong custodian, wrong contract/account, etc)? Has this happened to any of your co-workers, or just to you?

I just find it odd that your first reaction would be to post here instead of calling payroll, emailing HR, or asking anyone else at work if their 401ks are being processed correctly. I would like to assume you've done some investigating on your own but just haven't shared what you found.
Last edited by TropikThunder on Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TropikThunder
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by TropikThunder » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:39 pm

student wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:27 pm
Mistake happens. Talk to HR. First, I think they probably violated some rules. See https://pocketsense.com/long-employer-d ... 47925.html At my employer, they made a mistake and they made whole by depositing additional fund to compensate the missing out of the stock market gain.
How do they know how much gains to compensate for, is it based on the investment selections you had at the time of the missing deposits?

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whodidntante
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by whodidntante » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:42 pm

If you're lucky, it's a mistake and it will be fixed. If you're unlucky, your "contributions" are financing the operations of a failing company.

I would ask them to fix it as quickly as they can, and to update me as it develops.

Nissanzx1
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Nissanzx1 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:47 pm

This is a perfect example of "Trust, but verify". Not picking on the OP, but there is a lesson here for us all.

I work in sales and print every check off and go through it. People and machines make mistakes. I have co workers who have never logged on to our site and printed stubs. Some that have been here for years, absolutely blows my mind. I have every check for the last 11 years, hard copy.

OP I would politely check with your HR and only escalate it if you aren't getting somewhere. No reason to involve a government agency when they might issue a draft this Friday that fixes all this. Is it possible your company just switched 401K providers recently?

student
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by student » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:49 pm

TropikThunder wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:39 pm
student wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:27 pm
Mistake happens. Talk to HR. First, I think they probably violated some rules. See https://pocketsense.com/long-employer-d ... 47925.html At my employer, they made a mistake and they made whole by depositing additional fund to compensate the missing out of the stock market gain.
How do they know how much gains to compensate for, is it based on the investment selections you had at the time of the missing deposits?
I do not know how they computed it but those that I talked to were satisfied with the compensation. It may also be relevant that we have a union.

Flyer24
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Flyer24 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:12 pm

This almost seems like a fake first post. Who doesn’t check their retirement account for 9 months?

AlohaJoe
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by AlohaJoe » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm

TropikThunder wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:38 pm
I just find it odd that your first reaction would be to post here instead of calling payroll, emailing HR, or asking anyone else at work if their 401ks are being processed correctly. I would like to assume you've done some investigating on your own but just haven't shared what you found.
I am continually surprised at the number of people who post on Bogleheads before contacting whatever organization they are having an issue with or have a question for. If nothing else, it provides Bogleheads with a lot more information to try to help people. "I called them and they said X, Y, Z but I didn't understand/don't agree/it doesn't add up/how do I phrase my problems to get a better response?"

HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:35 pm

AlohaJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm
TropikThunder wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:38 pm
I just find it odd that your first reaction would be to post here instead of calling payroll, emailing HR, or asking anyone else at work if their 401ks are being processed correctly. I would like to assume you've done some investigating on your own but just haven't shared what you found.
I am continually surprised at the number of people who post on Bogleheads before contacting whatever organization they are having an issue with or have a question for. If nothing else, it provides Bogleheads with a lot more information to try to help people. "I called them and they said X, Y, Z but I didn't understand/don't agree/it doesn't add up/how do I phrase my problems to get a better response?"
Maybe the 401k custodian will post next, "Hey BHs, we lost this guy's 401k contributions, what do we do?"

:D

47Percent
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by 47Percent » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:58 pm

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:35 pm

Maybe the 401k custodian will post next, "Hey BHs, we lost this guy's 401k contributions, what do we do?"

:D
I have been resisting my temptation to click on the following click bait I see 10 times a day, for at least a year.
"If you own a home, forget your 401(k) and do this instead"

Gives a new meaning to "forgetting" your 401(k).

re: OP; I am quite sure he is looking in the wrong place. if the card-key works to get in the building at work, I think the money is safe.

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Watty
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Watty » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:44 am

47Percent wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:58 pm
re: OP; I am quite sure he is looking in the wrong place. if the card-key works to get in the building at work, I think the money is safe.
Very likely, or an honest mistake. One thing that I have heard of is that the 401k provider has two accounts set up for the same John Smith but the online account is set up to only see the account which is not getting the payroll deposit.

If the company was up to some monkey business with the 401k deposits some other employee would have noticed and everyone in the break room would be talking about it.

Starfish
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Starfish » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:48 am

Flyer24 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:12 pm
This almost seems like a fake first post. Who doesn’t check their retirement account for 9 months?
What?
I check mine once a year, if. Usually in October or so when I adjust the contribution to cut closer to the 18.5k limit.
So yeah, a lot of people.

Beehave
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Beehave » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:57 am

Maybe 401k is company stock purchased and credited periodically? Some ESPPs work on time periods to give the employee a lower purchase price. Maybe this is a company stock-only 401K that does something similar to these types of ESPPs?

lazydavid
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by lazydavid » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:34 am

Beehave wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:57 am
Maybe 401k is company stock purchased and credited periodically? Some ESPPs work on time periods to give the employee a lower purchase price. Maybe this is a company stock-only 401K that does something similar to these types of ESPPs?
I've never heard of such a thing, but even if that were the case, the employee would be able to see the cash in their account prior to the purchase transaction. But I don't think that would be legal, as the funds are not to be under the company's control once the contributions are made, even if under an agreement similar to an ESPP. So there would be no way to direct such a delayed transaction.

The employer has a few days after each payroll run for 401k contributions to be credited to the employee's account, else the missing funds are considered an illegal loan taken from the employee by the employer per IRS rules, and both penalties and excise taxes are due at the time of correction.

FM23
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by FM23 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:43 am

Flyer24 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:12 pm
This almost seems like a fake first post. Who doesn’t check their retirement account for 9 months?
I check my payroll stubs every other month if not every month. The money has been coming out of my pay as it is supposed to. My employer uses a different company for the 401k. I didn’t realize the money wasn’t growing in the 401k until I needed the statements for a home loan. It is my fault for not checking both payroll contributions to my 401k AND the 401k statements. I have been with this company for several years and became too trusting.

FM23
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by FM23 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:51 am

AlohaJoe wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:16 pm
TropikThunder wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:38 pm
I just find it odd that your first reaction would be to post here instead of calling payroll, emailing HR, or asking anyone else at work if their 401ks are being processed correctly. I would like to assume you've done some investigating on your own but just haven't shared what you found.
I am continually surprised at the number of people who post on Bogleheads before contacting whatever organization they are having an issue with or have a question for. If nothing else, it provides Bogleheads with a lot more information to try to help people. "I called them and they said X, Y, Z but I didn't understand/don't agree/it doesn't add up/how do I phrase my problems to get a better response?"
I am in the process of collecting all of my “payroll” and “401k” statements for the years I have been with this employer so I can make sure it’s only 2018 and not more years affected. Statements aren’t available online for such a long time frame. I’d hate to think it happened one or two months in previous years but the amount was so small I didn’t catch it then and now it’s on a bigger scale as opposed to a completely new issue. I was hoping for advice on who to approach first.

OnTrack2020
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by OnTrack2020 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:04 am

FM23 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:43 am
Flyer24 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:12 pm
This almost seems like a fake first post. Who doesn’t check their retirement account for 9 months?
I check my payroll stubs every other month if not every month. The money has been coming out of my pay as it is supposed to. My employer uses a different company for the 401k. I didn’t realize the money wasn’t growing in the 401k until I needed the statements for a home loan. It is my fault for not checking both payroll contributions to my 401k AND the 401k statements. I have been with this company for several years and became too trusting.
"...didn't realize the money wasn't growing in the 401k..." So, have you looked at your 401k statements in 2018? Do you see your contributions and the company match? Maybe the fund(s) you've selected haven't had much of a return this year or are down? I'm not sure you need to check all previous years. The stock market had really good returns last year, so you probably would have seen more growth. This year is kind of flat. Keep us posted.

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mikestorm
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by mikestorm » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:46 am

I'm the guy that does the payroll transmissions to the 401(k) for our company. I'm betting this is simply a function that fell through the cracks due to employee attrition in HR or something of that ilk (whoever used to do it is gone and due to a lack of documentation HR just assumed it was being handled and didn't know there is a manual component on their part). They probably don't know they have a problem.

Before you go to the DOL or the AG or anything like that, I would first discern if it's everybody or just you. Ask a friend at work to check their own 401(k). Then with this information (either way) to go HR with your evidence and ask to be made whole ASAP. Their response should dictate your next steps. Best of luck!

lazydavid
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by lazydavid » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:44 am

mikestorm wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:46 am
Before you go to the DOL or the AG or anything like that, I would first discern if it's everybody or just you. Ask a friend at work to check their own 401(k). Then with this information (either way) to go HR with your evidence and ask to be made whole ASAP. Their response should dictate your next steps. Best of luck!
I agree he should be contacting HR before the authorities. But it seems basically impossible that this could be affecting everybody. What are the chances that a 401(k) with even a handful of participants (let alone dozens or hundreds) doesn't have ANY that check their accounts at least once or twice a year? And if they do, either OP would have heard someone complaining about this previously, or the issue would have been corrected already with a formal apology.

theplayer11
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by theplayer11 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:54 am

I knew someone that worked for a small company and the owner was indeed stealing 401k money.
It happens...get on this

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Watty
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Watty » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:57 pm

Any updates on this?

FM23
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by FM23 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:12 pm

Watty wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:57 pm
Any updates on this?
I got the reports of my 401k for all my years with the company. Over $10,000 is missing. About $1,500 from previous years and $8,500 from 2018. I’ve changed my contributions to $0 and will forgoe the employer match that I’m not getting in the first place. I have a Solo 401k in which I’m going to contribute to now in order to meet my $18,500 max for this year. I’m looking for another job and I am going to approach my employer once I have the final September statement for my 401k. Only waiting since I had contributions to my 401k the first part of September which I’m 100% sure is missing.

JBTX
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by JBTX » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:32 pm

FM23 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:12 pm
Watty wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:57 pm
Any updates on this?
I got the reports of my 401k for all my years with the company. Over $10,000 is missing. About $1,500 from previous years and $8,500 from 2018. I’ve changed my contributions to $0 and will forgoe the employer match that I’m not getting in the first place. I have a Solo 401k in which I’m going to contribute to now in order to meet my $18,500 max for this year. I’m looking for another job and I am going to approach my employer once I have the final September statement for my 401k. Only waiting since I had contributions to my 401k the first part of September which I’m 100% sure is missing.
How are you going to contribute to a solo 401k? Do you have separate self employment income? You can't contribute to a solo 401k unless you have self employment income.

KESP
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by KESP » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:00 pm

I’m not understanding why you would wait until the end of September to approach your payroll person on this. If someone stole it, call the police. If it’s a mistake of some kind, give them a chance to fix it. Have all your paperwork ready to show whoever you are talking to. What 401k provider is it? Maybe they are messing up. There’s still no reason I can see for waiting. Isn’t the 401k provider required to send quarterly or yearly statements? So I assume you never got any paperwork for over a year? This just isn’t making sense.

KESP
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by KESP » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:06 pm

I should have said isn’t there a spot on your statement that says year to date contribution?

theplayer11
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by theplayer11 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:26 am

don't wait!!..confront and if not satisfied, call the authorities.

student
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by student » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:05 am

As others have said, do not wait. Talk to HR. It may also be useful to check with your colleagues to see whether they have any money missing.

BarbBrooklyn
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:07 am

student wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:05 am
As others have said, do not wait. Talk to HR. It may also be useful to check with your colleagues to see whether they have any money missing.
+1

What is the idea of waiting?

Is this a mom and pop company? Talk to the owner. Is this a large company? Talk to HR.

You sound pretty sure that there is malfeasance involved; I wouldn't give the perpetrator (if this is NOT a misunderstanding) more time to cover her/his tracks and/or abscond.

Get on this tomorrow morning!

FM23
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by FM23 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:46 pm

JBTX wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:32 pm
FM23 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:12 pm
Watty wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:57 pm
Any updates on this?
I got the reports of my 401k for all my years with the company. Over $10,000 is missing. About $1,500 from previous years and $8,500 from 2018. I’ve changed my contributions to $0 and will forgoe the employer match that I’m not getting in the first place. I have a Solo 401k in which I’m going to contribute to now in order to meet my $18,500 max for this year. I’m looking for another job and I am going to approach my employer once I have the final September statement for my 401k. Only waiting since I had contributions to my 401k the first part of September which I’m 100% sure is missing.
How are you going to contribute to a solo 401k? Do you have separate self employment income? You can't contribute to a solo 401k unless you have self employment income.
Yes. I also have self employment income and have a solo 401k I can contribute to.

I was waiting to prove they didn’t deposit my most recent contribution which went through beginning of September before I could make my contributions zero. However, based on the comments, I need to approach the owner tomorrow. It’s a small company so I’m going to speak with the owner. This is all so messed up.

KESP
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by KESP » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:55 am

How did you make out?

BarbBrooklyn
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:46 pm

I'm curious if you spoke to any other employees. There is strength in numbers, as this board shows.

Let us know how you make out. Good luck!

TropikThunder
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by TropikThunder » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:56 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:46 pm
I'm curious if you spoke to any other employees. There is strength in numbers, as this board shows.

Let us know how you make out. Good luck!
Agreed. Many posters (including myself) have prodded the OP to check with co-workers to see if anyone else at the company had been affected but OP hasn’t responded to that.

TwstdSista
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by TwstdSista » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Is it possible it will take a while for this to get figured out?

Could the OP make the solo 401k contributions, then the money "appears" in the work 401k and the limit has now been exceeded?

And what happens with the past years contributions that are missing? A friend of mine audits 401k plans and my understanding is that they will have to make the OP whole, including any lost gains.

Jefferson
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Jefferson » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:06 pm

I’m going with Occam’s razor here. Simplest solution is that someone made a mistake; especially at a small business. Talk to the owner. Calmly and professionally.

Hug401k
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Hug401k » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:24 pm

TropikThunder wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:39 pm
student wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:27 pm
Mistake happens. Talk to HR. First, I think they probably violated some rules. See https://pocketsense.com/long-employer-d ... 47925.html At my employer, they made a mistake and they made whole by depositing additional fund to compensate the missing out of the stock market gain.
How do they know how much gains to compensate for, is it based on the investment selections you had at the time of the missing deposits?
Talk to your HR person first. Honest mistakes do happen. Your HR could have sent the money in under the wrong SSN or account number. Call your record keeper second (they won't have much way to verify they were supposed to get $, but they can still open an investigation and you can verify nothing has been received) Any good recordkeeper can back calculate gains and losses based on day contributions were supposed to arrive. They do it all the time. And they will also calculate any company match and its earnings you were entitled to.

Legally, contributions must be placed in the 401k account by a certain time frame. I believe it's 15 business days.

Is there a chance you hit some other limit and the money was not deducted from your paycheck? Perhaps you are highly comp? Or you hit the $18,500 limit when combined with another account but at the same record keeper? If you think it's being stolen, you are 100% entitled to your money. I'm thinking if you ask the payroll person nicely, it might miraculously appear....

FM23
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by FM23 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:45 pm

My Solo 401k was only used to roll my SEP IRA into it. I have not deposited any contributions to the Solo 401k so there is no way I could have surpassed the $18,500 contribution limit.

I work for a small company so there is no human resources department to go to. I spoke with the owner. No specific answer as to what has happened. He seemed surprised, not sure if it was genuine. I am suspicious of everything now. I had all the documentation showing the money coming out of my paycheck through the payroll company designated as the 401k contribution and no deposits into my actual 401k account. I also provided proof of the missing 401k money from previous years, albeit it was a much smaller amount than in 2018. I will see how quickly this is handled. Still looking for another job. I don't feel this company is trustworthy.

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Shackleton
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Re: 401k money missing

Post by Shackleton » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:25 pm

Thanks for the follow up. That really sucks. I can only imagine how it feels. Good luck with the job search and with getting your money back.
“Superhuman effort isn't worth a damn unless it achieves results.” ~Ernest Shackleton

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