Co-habitation agreement - ??

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shell921
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Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by shell921 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am

Asking on behalf of a friend. She is a widow-of almost 5 years- like me.
She is 68 and has been seeing a man 12 years younger for a year.
He wants to move in with her and she is considering it. She owns a nice home-free and clear and has
a much higher net worth than this man. He is employed in a blue collar job and was never married.

Neither has any adult children. She is not interested in marrying again.

I was telling her I think she should have a co-habitation agreement and she agrees.
In researching on-lineI googled and got some examples of such agreements- but nothing that is exactly right.

Any suggestions?

Basically, I think perhaps the agreement should state that both people are self-supporting & responsible for their own
expenses. She will charge his xxx amount for xxxx [ etc ] and they will share some expenses.
And spell those expense categories out. Right?

Any input is welcome.

Jack FFR1846
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:17 am

How about this: She draw up a standard monthly lease. He pays rent every month. The amount is set high enough so she doesn't end up bickering about the added sports channel on cable or the electricity bill going too high because he likes the AC to be on. If things don't work out, she evicts him.
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sandramjet
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by sandramjet » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:25 am

Maybe ask Sheldon and Leonard for a copy of their roommate agreement? :D

ResearchMed
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:25 am

What about if/when they split or she doesn't want him to live there anymore?
She shoule make SURE that she checks the landlord/tenant laws in her state.

I had a friend who was caught in a nightmare when the woman living with him fought the breakup (at least he found out what she was like before getting more involved).

She forced all sorts of legal delays, actually took it to court a few times, and it took him about 2 years.
It was a total nightmare.

And *I* thought I understood LT laws here, having been a landlord several times.
I would have thought that it would be easier to get someone out of one's own home.
I would have been wrong.
Indeed, I *was* wrong in early discussions!

RM
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dm200
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by dm200 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:44 am

shell921 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am
Asking on behalf of a friend. She is a widow-of almost 5 years- like me.
She is 68 and has been seeing a man 12 years younger for a year.
He wants to move in with her and she is considering it. She owns a nice home-free and clear and has
a much higher net worth than this man. He is employed in a blue collar job and was never married.
Neither has any adult children. She is not interested in marrying again.
I was telling her I think she should have a co-habitation agreement and she agrees.
In researching on-lineI googled and got some examples of such agreements- but nothing that is exactly right.
Any suggestions?
Basically, I think perhaps the agreement should state that both people are self-supporting & responsible for their own
expenses. She will charge his xxx amount for xxxx [ etc ] and they will share some expenses.
And spell those expense categories out. Right?
Any input is welcome.
The key is what she WANTS, in my opinion.

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Raymond
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Raymond » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:45 am

I am getting bad vibes about the situation.

If she is not interested in getting married again, then why have this guy live with her?

If he loves her, then he should be happy to keep seeing her while living in his own place.

If he has ulterior motives, then moving in would be the perfect setup (for him).

Maybe I'm just paranoid...
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dm200
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by dm200 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:45 am

I would also research the rules in the applicable state for Common Law Marriage.

Under the situation cited, I suppose he become a roommate "with benefits"

chevca
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by chevca » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:53 am

shell921 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am
Any suggestions?
Tell her not to do it. Sounds like a nightmare in waiting trying to get him out of there if or when they call it off. She may have to actually evict him to get him out of there... depending on the state.

If she or they don't plan to ever marry, why move in together? She has her own home (paid for), there's a decent age difference, and she sounds to have a decent net worth. Maybe I'm being mean here, but I think he sees a free ride there.

Give it another year or two... if they're still together, then think about living together.

chevca
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by chevca » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:07 am

My guess would be, if she mentions he has to pay rent, he loses interest in this arrangement quickly.

I'm being judgey here and I realize that. I don't know him, his intentions, or their real feelings for each other. But, from the info given, it makes me shake my head no.

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am

Do your friend a favor and tell her to drop this idea. Real quick.
There are red flags waving all around here.
Consider, If this guy was sincere about his affection/friendship for this woman, and had no ulterior motives for wanting to move in - He would be the one bringing up the subject of how they will split expenses, what exactly he will pay every month, and insist on putting everything in writing, etc.

Lacking that directness, he should be viewed with suspicion.

Of course, women that age who have found a boyfriend so much younger are so head over heels "in love" they often do not think rationally. You would be wise to recruit several other friends besides yourself to talk to her. Try and persuade her to think about the many pitfalls of this proposed living arrangement.

(Has anyone thought to run a background check on this guy? Could be he has a history of wining and dining well-off widows and then living off them for as long as he can.)

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dm200
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by dm200 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:23 am

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am
Do your friend a favor and tell her to drop this idea. Real quick.
There are red flags waving all around here.
Consider, If this guy was sincere about his affection/friendship for this woman, and had no ulterior motives for wanting to move in - He would be the one bringing up the subject of how they will split expenses, what exactly he will pay every month, and insist on putting everything in writing, etc.

Lacking that directness, he should be viewed with suspicion.

Of course, women that age who have found a boyfriend so much younger are so head over heels "in love" they often do not think rationally. You would be wise to recruit several other friends besides yourself to talk to her. Try and persuade her to think about the many pitfalls of this proposed living arrangement.

(Has anyone thought to run a background check on this guy? Could be he has a history of wining and dining well-off widows and then living off them for as long as he can.)
Some aspects of this sound like an episode of Law and Order or Forensic Files :(

Gnirk
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Gnirk » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:32 am

I don't think a year is long enough to really know someone, much less have them move in with you. As another poster said, has anyone done a background check on him, both personal and financial? What if they break up? It may be very difficult to get him to move out, as others have said. And the fact it is his idea makes me a bit suspicious.

I "dated" my second husband for 11 years before we married. Guess we both wanted to be sure we knew each other well. And we maintained separate homes during all that time, and never moved in with each other until after we were married.

I suggest she enjoy the relationship as it is.

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:42 am

I think its fishy that he is 56 and says he has never been married.

Bet a background check would turn up at least one ex-wife.

barnaclebob
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:17 pm

This forum is famously super conservative on relationships and money. :oops: Until you are married suspect that they are trying to steal every penny and put every possible legal protection into place. Even after you are married too.

Tell her to write up a lease agreement that is available for free from several websites and call it good. 12 years isn't that much of an age difference at that age and not everyone is scheming for money. As long as he doesn't start convincing her to rewrite wills or trusts that's about as good as you can do. They are adults, if they want to live together that's great. While nightmare breakup scenarios happen that doesn't mean you need to put up some Jurassic park level fences to protect from it.

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:27 pm

Bull.

But, thank you for contributing a male viewpoint here, bob.

The fact that this woman has no adult children (or apparently other close relatives) may have made her a target.

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VictoriaF
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:13 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am
Do your friend a favor and tell her to drop this idea. Real quick.
There are red flags waving all around here.
Consider, If this guy was sincere about his affection/friendship for this woman, and had no ulterior motives for wanting to move in - He would be the one bringing up the subject of how they will split expenses, what exactly he will pay every month, and insist on putting everything in writing, etc.

Lacking that directness, he should be viewed with suspicion.
Good points.
drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am
Of course, women that age who have found a boyfriend so much younger are so head over heels "in love" they often do not think rationally. You would be wise to recruit several other friends besides yourself to talk to her. Try and persuade her to think about the many pitfalls of this proposed living arrangement.
How much do you know about "women that age"?
drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am
(Has anyone thought to run a background check on this guy? Could be he has a history of wining and dining well-off widows and then living off them for as long as he can.)
Good idea about background checks.

I'll add a few suggestions:
1. Has the woman in question met her boyfriend's family? Not only meeting the family is a sign of a commitment but it is also a check on the person's truthfulness about not being married to someone else and any serious issues.

2. The woman should take a long vacation with him, for a month or two, and make it relatively challenging. For example, not to go on a cruise or a packaged tour, but travel around Europe making their own arrangements. Or drive across America back and forth. Daily challenges and constant interactions tend to bring out people's real nature.

Victoria
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barnaclebob
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by barnaclebob » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:17 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:27 pm
Bull.

But, thank you for contributing a male viewpoint here, bob.

The fact that this woman has no adult children (or apparently other close relatives) may have made her a target.
I guess you are just better than me at assessing a 1 year romantic relationship based on a single paragraph a stranger wrote on the internet.

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VictoriaF
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:22 pm

barnaclebob wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:17 pm
drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:27 pm
Bull.

But, thank you for contributing a male viewpoint here, bob.

The fact that this woman has no adult children (or apparently other close relatives) may have made her a target.
I guess you are just better than me at assessing a 1 year romantic relationship based on a single paragraph a stranger wrote on the internet.
Thy OP is asking on behalf of her friend, not an Internet stranger. And the way she has phrased the situation shows that she is concerned about her friend. But I do take issue with drawpoker's generalization of "women of that age."

Victoria
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PVW
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by PVW » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:40 pm

shell921 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am
She is a widow-of almost 5 years- like me.
She is 68 and has been seeing a man 12 years younger for a year.
He wants to move in with her and she is considering it. She owns a nice home-free and clear and has
a much higher net worth than this man. He is employed in a blue collar job and was never married.

Neither has any adult children. She is not interested in marrying again.
There are a lot of posters that are reading a lot of bad intentions into this brief description. From what I can see, there are 2 people without children in a committed relationship that want to move in together. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with people in a committed relationship with different financial background entering into a contract that defines their financial relationship.

Your widow friend needs to decide what she is trying to protect with a legal agreement. Is she worried the cohabitation will not work out and wants a legal foundation for eviction? Is she wanting to protect her financial assets? Does she want some uniform understanding/definition of their relationship? Once she knows this, she can proceed with putting it into a contract. Don't seek out a contract with random requirements just because she is unsure of the situation.

Something to note - if she collects rent from her new tenant, she'll probably have to claim that as income, but if her partner is contributing to household expenses, then that is not taxable.

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Cobra Commander
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Cobra Commander » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm

Off the top of my head the only thing that really matters here is rent + utilities and (maybe) groceries and the rest could be negotiated orally as, at least to me, those seem like the only major expenses. Presumably they would keep their own cars right? Otherwise, to the extent they were taking a trip together presumably they would say ok we each pay half or whatever prior to signing up for the trip or they would each book their own tickets or something along that line that wouldn't rely on them necessarily reimbursing each other. If it turned out the guy wasn't honoring their oral arrangement to say, pay for every other dinner out or something, she could choose to end the relationship and she'd only be out a few hundred bucks for a few dinners.

All of this is to say I think a modified lease agreement that also includes a split of the utilities would be sufficient. Check the laws of your state but to the extent enforceable in your jurisdiction include an attorney fee provision in case she has to evict/eject him.

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HueyLD
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by HueyLD » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm

I have a philosophical question.

If the ages were 56 for her and 68 for him, would we have similar discussions?

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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by delamer » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:46 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am
Do your friend a favor and tell her to drop this idea. Real quick.
There are red flags waving all around here.
Consider, If this guy was sincere about his affection/friendship for this woman, and had no ulterior motives for wanting to move in - He would be the one bringing up the subject of how they will split expenses, what exactly he will pay every month, and insist on putting everything in writing, etc.

Lacking that directness, he should be viewed with suspicion.

Of course, women that age who have found a boyfriend so much younger are so head over heels "in love" they often do not think rationally. You would be wise to recruit several other friends besides yourself to talk to her. Try and persuade her to think about the many pitfalls of this proposed living arrangement.

(Has anyone thought to run a background check on this guy? Could be he has a history of wining and dining well-off widows and then living off them for as long as he can.)

As opposed to men that age who behave completely rationally around younger women?

Now that I have that off my chest, I agree that this arrangement is a bad idea.

What is the advantage to her of having him move in, rather than living separately nearby and seeing him regularly?

ResearchMed
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:54 pm

Cobra Commander wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm
Off the top of my head the only thing that really matters here is rent + utilities and (maybe) groceries and the rest could be negotiated orally as, at least to me, those seem like the only major expenses. Presumably they would keep their own cars right? Otherwise, to the extent they were taking a trip together presumably they would say ok we each pay half or whatever prior to signing up for the trip or they would each book their own tickets or something along that line that wouldn't rely on them necessarily reimbursing each other. If it turned out the guy wasn't honoring their oral arrangement to say, pay for every other dinner out or something, she could choose to end the relationship and she'd only be out a few hundred bucks for a few dinners.

All of this is to say I think a modified lease agreement that also includes a split of the utilities would be sufficient. Check the laws of your state but to the extent enforceable in your jurisdiction include an attorney fee provision in case she has to evict/eject him.
Then you are not at all familiar with the landlord/tenant laws in some states.
This type of arrangement can be *more* difficult/lengthy/expensive than evicting a "regular tenant in a separate rental property" in some places.
Much to my astonishment, I watched it happen to a very dear friend, and it was a nightmare.
As mentioned above, because the woman (in this case the homeowner was a man, although that isn't relevant) refused to leave and challenged it in court... even though in this case she "moved in" due to a romantic relationship and was never expected to pay rent. He had to let her remain there, rent free, while the legal process played out. (No, I do not know what the details of the claims were, in terms of what she claimed he promised, or not. But a regular tenant would have been "gone" much faster.)

It certainly is *not* only the rent that is at issue.

And "orally" is the very worst. NO proof of who agreed to what.

I would not have believed what happened had I not watched it (thankfully, from a bit of a distance!) as it played out.

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Cobra Commander
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Cobra Commander » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:04 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:54 pm
Cobra Commander wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm
Off the top of my head the only thing that really matters here is rent + utilities and (maybe) groceries and the rest could be negotiated orally as, at least to me, those seem like the only major expenses. Presumably they would keep their own cars right? Otherwise, to the extent they were taking a trip together presumably they would say ok we each pay half or whatever prior to signing up for the trip or they would each book their own tickets or something along that line that wouldn't rely on them necessarily reimbursing each other. If it turned out the guy wasn't honoring their oral arrangement to say, pay for every other dinner out or something, she could choose to end the relationship and she'd only be out a few hundred bucks for a few dinners.

All of this is to say I think a modified lease agreement that also includes a split of the utilities would be sufficient. Check the laws of your state but to the extent enforceable in your jurisdiction include an attorney fee provision in case she has to evict/eject him.
Then you are not at all familiar with the landlord/tenant laws in some states.
This type of arrangement can be *more* difficult/lengthy/expensive than evicting a "regular tenant in a separate rental property" in some places.
Much to my astonishment, I watched it happen to a very dear friend, and it was a nightmare.
As mentioned above, because the woman (in this case the homeowner was a man, although that isn't relevant) refused to leave and challenged it in court... even though in this case she "moved in" due to a romantic relationship and was never expected to pay rent. He had to let her remain there, rent free, while the legal process played out. (No, I do not know what the details of the claims were, in terms of what she claimed he promised, or not. But a regular tenant would have been "gone" much faster.)

It certainly is *not* only the rent that is at issue.

And "orally" is the very worst. NO proof of who agreed to what.

I would not have believed what happened had I not watched it (thankfully, from a bit of a distance!) as it played out.

RM
What you're referring to is an ejection proceeding not an eviction and yes, they can be more complicated than a typical LL tenant relationship. Here, there would be lease so the man would be a tenant.

The reason I don't think anything more than an oral agreement for the other stuff is because I don't think it needs to be enforceable. Like I said in my post, if he stops paying for his share of dinners out or whatever then she can end the relationship and at most be out a few hundred dollars. I just can't think of any extra expenses that he would need to be responsible for that are worth the effort of documenting. Presumably she will handle repair expenses as the LL.

Minot
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Minot » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:24 pm

PVW wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:40 pm
shell921 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am
She is a widow-of almost 5 years- like me.
She is 68 and has been seeing a man 12 years younger for a year.
He wants to move in with her and she is considering it. She owns a nice home-free and clear and has
a much higher net worth than this man. He is employed in a blue collar job and was never married.

Neither has any adult children. She is not interested in marrying again.
There are a lot of posters that are reading a lot of bad intentions into this brief description. From what I can see, there are 2 people without children in a committed relationship that want to move in together. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with people in a committed relationship with different financial background entering into a contract that defines their financial relationship.

Your widow friend needs to decide what she is trying to protect with a legal agreement. Is she worried the cohabitation will not work out and wants a legal foundation for eviction? Is she wanting to protect her financial assets? Does she want some uniform understanding/definition of their relationship? Once she knows this, she can proceed with putting it into a contract. Don't seek out a contract with random requirements just because she is unsure of the situation.

Something to note - if she collects rent from her new tenant, she'll probably have to claim that as income, but if her partner is contributing to household expenses, then that is not taxable.
If I were the OP, this is the post I would pay attention to.

Dottie57
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:26 pm

Being who I am I wouldn’t do it. However if she does let him in :

Maybe a written agreement stating he would leave at any time it was requested. She agrees to put him up at a long term hotel for up to a month -that’s it.

No landlord stuff -just a verbal agreement on paying monthly.

Beware anyone who moves in for free.

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:13 pm
How much do you know about "women that age"?

....... a few suggestions:
1. Has the woman in question met her boyfriend's family? Not only meeting the family is a sign of a commitment but it is also a check on the person's truthfulness about not being married to someone else and any serious issues.

2. The woman should take a long vacation with him, for a month or two, and make it relatively challenging. For example, not to go on a cruise or a packaged tour, but travel around Europe making their own arrangements. Or drive across America back and forth. Daily challenges and constant interactions tend to bring out people's real nature.
Well, I turned 69 in July, so guess I have more than a nodding acquaintance with that age group. And, yes, am personally aware of some 60+ women who made fools of themselves upon receiving the attentions of a much younger man. But my caution and and suspicions here are more related to my former police background than anecdotal.

your #1 suggestion is excellent! Hope the OP carries thru on that angle.

Not sure if #2 is workable. The guy is supposedly toiling away at some blue-collar job. So he can readily use that as excuse why he cannot take that much time off for long vacation.

Another strong suspicion I have is that this thread is headed for the padlock soon. As it gets more and more contentious between the starry-eyed romantic types and the clear-headed realists. :wink:

BogleBike
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by BogleBike » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:30 pm

From what I've seen, landlord-tenant laws vary from state. The best answer would be based in part on an understanding of the details in your state. I imagine that "ejection" varies between jurisdictions too.

That said, my guess is that the simplest thing is have him sign a month to month rental agreement that explicitly allows either party to terminate at will. I suspect that will give her the quickest most reliable way to get him out of the house if she ever wishes to do so.

Having set a "floor" to minimize bad cases, she can then go on to enjoy the advance of the relationship. Best wishes to her for the new phase.

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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:34 pm

HueyLD wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm
I have a philosophical question.
If the ages were 56 for her and 68 for him, would we have similar discussions?
Oh, heck, Yes.
Even bigger red flags. 68 year old guy still toiling in blue-collar job with no prospects.
Oh, wait. There is a prospect for him on the horizon..........

WhiteMaxima
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by WhiteMaxima » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:19 pm

Elizabeth Taylor? Gold digger?

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Doom&Gloom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:29 pm

Sticking to the financial red flags rather than the relationship red flags:

He doesn't seem to be bringing much (anything?) to the party. This could turn into a real nightmare for her. Not so much (any?) risk for him.

I would not place myself in this position.

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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Christine_NM » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:49 pm

Rather than a cohabitation agreement and a lot of strings attached for each of them, she could say no, not now, to his moving in. See how fast he cools off.

I'm guessing that he thinks the relationship is OK and could withstand having him upgrade to her home.

Anyway, a piece of paper is not going to change the outcome. If they go ahead with this, she should insist on collecting first and last month's rent in advance. That may be enough to change his mind.
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by RudyS » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:55 pm

shell921 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am
Asking on behalf of a friend. She is a widow-of almost 5 years- like me.
She is 68 and has been seeing a man 12 years younger for a year.
He wants to move in with her and she is considering it. She owns a nice home-free and clear and has
a much higher net worth than this man. He is employed in a blue collar job and was never married.

Neither has any adult children. She is not interested in marrying again.
.....
One year isn't a very long time. Based on the relative financial situations, I would feel a lot better if she wants him to move in with her, and he is considering it.

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whodidntante
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by whodidntante » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:58 pm

I suggest she finds someone younger.

Dottie57
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Dottie57 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:04 pm

whodidntante wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:58 pm
I suggest she finds someone younger.
:beer

likegarden
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by likegarden » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm

This might become a common-law marriage after a certain time. In some states it is 1 year, others 7 years. This lady should read up on common-law marriage. Perhaps he is counting on that after he lives there a few years, and part of her wealth will be his then.

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dm200
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by dm200 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:26 pm

likegarden wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm
This might become a common-law marriage after a certain time. In some states it is 1 year, others 7 years. This lady should read up on common-law marriage. Perhaps he is counting on that after he lives there a few years, and part of her wealth will be his then.
Yes! That could be a risk to her.

denovo
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by denovo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:26 pm

likegarden wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm
This might become a common-law marriage after a certain time. In some states it is 1 year, others 7 years. This lady should read up on common-law marriage. Perhaps he is counting on that after he lives there a few years, and part of her wealth will be his then.
Most states do not have common-law marriage.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

chevca
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by chevca » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:00 pm

HueyLD wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm
I have a philosophical question.

If the ages were 56 for her and 68 for him, would we have similar discussions?
As long as he also owned the home free and clear, had a higher net worth, she wanted to move in with him, and the ages were reversed.... absolutely. I'd say no way he should do it.

jminv
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by jminv » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:21 pm

shell921 wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 am

He wants to move in with her and she is considering it. She owns a nice home-free and clear and has
a much higher net worth than this man. He is employed in a blue collar job and was never married.
How, exactly, is she sure that he has never been married? I would first verify that statement to be true before having him move in. This is an inexpensive check you can do yourself to help out your friend. The probability of a person his age not having ever been married is low - around 10%. This isn't a value judgement about marriage and of course there are plenty of normal people who never marry. The only reason I say this is that if you catch him in a lie here, then he could be lying about other things.

I agree on taking precautions to avoid ending up in a situation where they're considered to be in a common law marriage. This depends on where they live.

It could be that they are in love and he's a decent guy. I'm not discounting that and it could certainly be true. I'd also be wary since she has more money than him, is older, and has no children which makes her sound like an ideal target.

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VictoriaF
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by VictoriaF » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:47 pm

drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm
Well, I turned 69 in July, so guess I have more than a nodding acquaintance with that age group.
You are of a perfect age for the OP's friend. She should make an introduction.
drawpoker wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm
And, yes, am personally aware of some 60+ women who made fools of themselves upon receiving the attentions of a much younger man. But my caution and and suspicions here are more related to my former police background than anecdotal.
...
another strong suspicion I have is that this thread is headed for the padlock soon. As it gets more and more contentious between the starry-eyed romantic types and the clear-headed realists. :wink:
Do you have any pictures of elderly women strangled by their young lovers? That would liven the thread before it's locked.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:50 pm

jminv wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:21 pm
It could be that they are in love and he's a decent guy. I'm not discounting that and it could certainly be true. I'd also be wary since she has more money than him, is older, and has no children which makes her sound like an ideal target.
If he is a con artist the OPs friend could be in way over her head. Depending on his experience and skill level as a con man, she wont get very far in seeking rent payments. He will simply smooth talk her that since she has no mortgage on the house it doesn't sound fair to make him pay. After all, he will argue, she has no monthly housing cost, and he wants to save as much of his paycheck as he can for their 'future together"

As for the utilities, electric, gas, cable, whatever, when the bills come due and it is his turn to pony up his half he will have some hard luck story about being a little short. There were some larger deductions at work, he will claim, insurance, union dues, something.

After he has primed the pump well will come the usual big play. Honey, I owe the IRS, they are threatening to take my truck, garnish my check. Can you see your way to lend me just $3,000? $5,000, whatever. To get them off my back, I would be so grateful. (Again, this will be worked around and presented in such a way as to make it seem right for their "future together".)

The sad thing is - when many of these women realize they have been fleeced, there is nothing the authorities can do
because the victim willingly forked over these sums of money.

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Raymond
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by Raymond » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:25 pm

denovo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:26 pm
likegarden wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm
This might become a common-law marriage after a certain time. In some states it is 1 year, others 7 years. This lady should read up on common-law marriage. Perhaps he is counting on that after he lives there a few years, and part of her wealth will be his then.
Most states do not have common-law marriage.
Just In case the OP's friend lives in a common-law marriage state:

"COMMON LAW MARRIAGE BY STATE" - ncsl.org
"Ritter, Tod und Teufel"

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:36 pm

Maybe we are the ones who are getting conned here.

Am beginning to think that the OP and the "friend" are one in the same person. Too many similarities besides widowhood. No children, high net worth, 4,000 sq. ft nice home, weak knowledge of financial matters in general.

Now that more than 12 jurors and 2 alternates have pretty much tried and convicted the boyfriend here --the OP is too embarrassed to come back to thread. After nearly 12 hours of pretty much unanimous bashing of the move-in plan.

"See, doctor, I hate to bother you about this, its not me, but I have this friend who desperately needs......


How 'bout it, shell921, ready to fess up..............
:?: :?:

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AltaRed
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by AltaRed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 pm

I have NOT read many posts in this thread, so at the risk of being repetitive, I ask your indulgence in offering a few comments based on my own (Canadian - British Columbia) experience having met a woman of 60 years of age when I was 59 back in 2008, and after 4 years of getting to know one another, taking up house together AND getting a co-habitation agreement... at my insistence due to my net worth being orders of magnitude higher than hers.

1. Advise her to become familiar with common law statutes in her state AND google for blogs and legal websites talking about these issues in her state as it pertains to relationship breakdowns.

2. Run, not walk, to a family law lawyer knowledgeable about pre-nups and co-habitation agreements to discuss key terms that need to be dealt with in such a co-hab before making any commitments to this man. Get a purpose built co-hab from a lawyer that pertains to their specific situation and have her take the lead in it. It will cost her more to be the drafter of the document than the man's lawyer reviewing it on his behalf but higher net worth person will want to hold the power of the pen.

3. Avoid the tendency to get too deep into the details on a co-hab because life will evolve a little differently than what first seemed important. IOW, get the big things correct. Don't get distracted by details such as who pays how much for which cable channels. If small expenses are likely to be sticking points, the relationship is dead before arrival.

4. Keep finances separate except for a joint checking account to fund household expenses that each contributes a monthly stipend too. The contributions do not have to be equal. Also consider one joint credit card with a low credit limit simply because some household expenses are better assigned to a credit card. The woman should be the primary on that credit card so that she can 'pull' it (or have him taken off) if things go off the rails.

5. In our case, we purchased a home together, with tenants-in-common title based on a X/Y split of ownership. That way, the 'marital' home does not become an issue in a breakup, or depending on joint property laws, the house does not automatically go to the survivor in event of death of one of them. This was important for us because both of us have adult children that we want our residual legacy to go to in event of death. In this woman's case, I think it is awkward at best and 'complicated' for the man to move in with her.....as already has been discussed. If they intend to live together, they should both agree to own certain percentages of the house in a tenants-in-common title AND a co-hab should include the process in which the house will be sold in event of a breakup (each could have rights of first refusal based on an arm's length appraisal).

Lots of other thoughts and family law may well be very different in this woman's jurisdiction than it is up here, but there will be some commonalities.

JGoneRiding
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by JGoneRiding » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:58 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:54 pm
Cobra Commander wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm
Off the top of my head the only thing that really matters here is rent + utilities and (maybe) groceries and the rest could be negotiated orally as, at least to me, those seem like the only major expenses. Presumably they would keep their own cars right? Otherwise, to the extent they were taking a trip together presumably they would say ok we each pay half or whatever prior to signing up for the trip or they would each book their own tickets or something along that line that wouldn't rely on them necessarily reimbursing each other. If it turned out the guy wasn't honoring their oral arrangement to say, pay for every other dinner out or something, she could choose to end the relationship and she'd only be out a few hundred bucks for a few dinners.

All of this is to say I think a modified lease agreement that also includes a split of the utilities would be sufficient. Check the laws of your state but to the extent enforceable in your jurisdiction include an attorney fee provision in case she has to evict/eject him.
Then you are not at all familiar with the landlord/tenant laws in some states.
This type of arrangement can be *more* difficult/lengthy/expensive than evicting a "regular tenant in a separate rental property" in some places.
Much to my astonishment, I watched it happen to a very dear friend, and it was a nightmare.
As mentioned above, because the woman (in this case the homeowner was a man, although that isn't relevant) refused to leave and challenged it in court... even though in this case she "moved in" due to a romantic relationship and was never expected to pay rent. He had to let her remain there, rent free, while the legal process played out. (No, I do not know what the details of the claims were, in terms of what she claimed he promised, or not. But a regular tenant would have been "gone" much faster.)

It certainly is *not* only the rent that is at issue.

And "orally" is the very worst. NO proof of who agreed to what.

I would not have believed what happened had I not watched it (thankfully, from a bit of a distance!) as it played out.

RM
I agree a written agreement is ALWAYS better than an oral he said she said. In most states though you could say you feel unsafe. But it is NEVER a good idea to just allow some one to move in.

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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by JGoneRiding » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:09 pm

denovo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:26 pm
likegarden wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm
This might become a common-law marriage after a certain time. In some states it is 1 year, others 7 years. This lady should read up on common-law marriage. Perhaps he is counting on that after he lives there a few years, and part of her wealth will be his then.
Most states do not have common-law marriage.
16 sort of according to this www.legalzoom.com/articles/fact-or-fict ... w-marriage

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AltaRed
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by AltaRed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Another thought. It would be an unequal relationship 'psychologically' if one person in the relationship moved into the house as a tenant (or not) owned by the other person. Balance of power, i.e. control, would have to have some negative effect on the relationship...unless the person simply moving in is a leech, low life, has ulterior motives, etc. I would question why that person (the man in this case) would even want to do that, and like others, I don't know how this can really work long term.

In my case, my common law wife and I bought this house essentially on a 50/50 tenants in common basis even though it took almost all of her resources to do so. The point for her was a feeling of equality in relationship and I fully understood that. But it doesn't have to be 50/50, could be 70/30 with things like maintenance and upgrades and property taxes and fire insurance that are property dependent being split along the same ownership lines.

denovo
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by denovo » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:26 pm

JGoneRiding wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:09 pm
denovo wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:26 pm
likegarden wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:25 pm
This might become a common-law marriage after a certain time. In some states it is 1 year, others 7 years. This lady should read up on common-law marriage. Perhaps he is counting on that after he lives there a few years, and part of her wealth will be his then.
Most states do not have common-law marriage.
16 sort of according to this www.legalzoom.com/articles/fact-or-fict ... w-marriage
34/50= 68 percent. I stand by my statement.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

drawpoker
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Re: Co-habitation agreement - ??

Post by drawpoker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:33 pm

AltaRed wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 pm
.......a few comments based on my own (Canadian - British Columbia) experience having met a woman of 60 years of age when I was 59 back in 2008.........In this woman's case, I think it is awkward at best and 'complicated' for the man to move in with her.....as already has been discussed. If they intend to live together, they should both agree to own certain percentages of the house in a tenants-in-common title ........
You know, for a while there, you almost had me.

Seemed rather easy to follow your heartwarming, folksy, account of how well things went for you in this late-in-life romance department up there in the North.

Until - got to the part where putting the boyfriend of just one-year standing, who, at the ripe old age of 56 has little or nothing to show for his, er, lifetime of hard work, and who is now seems to be urging his well-to-do widowed g.f. to let him move into her nice, upscale Calif. home....... and You recommend putting him on the deed to the house as tenants-in-common?

As the old Americana saying goes ----

Surely, you jest?

Locked