Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

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ParamedicProf
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by ParamedicProf » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:29 pm

Broken Man 1999
Actually way down here in MS we haven't had any wolves to speak of in over 200 years. We have a very health population of coyotes though. The next time I am out visiting the kids in the back 40, I will ask what were the most valuable lessons they learned from their canine brethren.

I know for a fact that one of the coyotes has a Roth IRA so I am sure they were great lessons.

acegolfer
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by acegolfer » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:33 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:50 pm
We happen to live in an area with the cheapest university education in the country. There are two pretty good universities within biking distance of our home where it is quite easy for students to cashflow the entirety of their own education without taking on any debt whatsoever. We haven't 100% decided, and we have plenty of time considering they are 6 and 3, but we are leaning towards not paying for their education. My wife and I not only received zero financial assistance, but both financially helped our parents while pursuing our own education; we agree that it was difficult, but a crucial factor in who we have become. Anecdotally, my wife's sister is the one sibling between us who had her education paid for by parents and she is without a doubt the least successful (from a career standpoint) and the person who values that education the least among the 10 of us...it also was a financial burden on her parents that they are still dealing with 15yrs later.
TBH, I'm surprised that not many share the same opinion as you. My guess is that this thread is biased against ppl like you. People may not say "No, I'm not going to pay for my kid's college" for fear of getting criticized by others.

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market timer
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by market timer » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:40 pm

We still have some time to decide. Most likely, I'll cover costs up to State U. levels. If either of my kids gets into a school in the top 6 or so, I'd be inclined to cover that. Grad school would be on them, unless we're very rich.

bgf
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by bgf » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:13 pm

there is no ROI on an education paid for by a parent/grandparent. the student didn't invest any principal, and the parents didn't make any money.

it is a gift. a huge gift. and one I hope I can give when the time comes.
“TE OCCIDERE POSSUNT SED TE EDERE NON POSSUNT NEFAS EST"

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beyou
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by beyou » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:28 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:21 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:54 pm
Independent of whether you are paying and/or "skin in the game", it is useful for the college student to gain some real job experience before they graduated.
Can't stress this enough. My employer has had such bad "growing pain" experiences with employees that had great academic resumes but no work experience, that my boss recently told me that we simply are not going to interview another PhD who has never had a "real world" job. Even if it is a part-time job working in the school cafeteria, at least in my experience, you are doing your child no favors if you encourage them to focus solely on school and not experience having a job of some sort. Academia is not the workforce (unless their intended career is in academia), and that disconnect is getting bigger.
While I agree that having experience of any kind is personally enriching, as a hiring manager I don’t care if the applicant worked at McDonalds (unless I owned a fast food joint, which i do not). Kids who did well in college while juggling other activities, whether paid or not, have to be disciplined to graduate with a decent gpa. They need to have a work ethic. Now the difficulty varies by school and major, but generally college requires organization to succeed. So a STEM major from a known competitive college, with a good gpa is a good bet. Bad gpa with McDonalds work experience, not a good bet. I think many BHs forget how much work it takes to do well in college, especially engineering. The challenge is one of how to standout with little to discuss of relevance to a hiring manager. The kids who have RELEVANT internships do have a huge advantage, the rest are tougher to judge, but it is not a total gamble to hire an MIT grad with a 3.8 gpa and no work exp.

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Peter Foley
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Peter Foley » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:46 pm

There is a "tradition" in our family going back a couple generations. One of my mother's uncles set up a trust fund to pay for college education for all 13 of his great nieces and nephews. That covered about 75% of my private college undergraduate studies. Graduate studies were on my own.
My mother gave money to my brother and me for her grandchildren's education when they were very young. My wife and I invested it in the Schwab 1000 fund and it paid for about 3 years of private college education for each of our children. We covered the 4th year and provided some money for graduate school for both. Both daughters had some undergraduate and grad scholarships and finished their masters debt free.
We have funded 529 plans for our grandchildren.

So for us the answer is a qualified yes if you consider the generation skipping factor.

smectym
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by smectym » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:59 pm

We paid for undergrad and the kid did quite well. He’s going to a top 15 law school and we’re paying for that too. But 529 covered a good chunk of college and a separate 529 will cover law school with plenty to spare, due to an unexpected scholarship in the form of an out of state tuition waiver.

Parents have a range of views on paying for college and there is room for different approaches. In general, if the student is serious and has the aptitude for the chosen field of study, and the family has the wherewithal to pay full freight without compromising retirement or other critical financial goals, I think it’s usually the right call not to burden the student with much law school debt.

However, I would probably advise against parents going into debt themselves with PLUS loans, or co-signing their kid’s loans. And breaking into a retirement account or ceasing contributions? I wouldn’t advise that at all.

Each kid is different, and so is each family’s situation.

Smectym

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by srt7 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:01 pm

Ragnoth wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:58 pm
Parents paid my undergrad, and I was on my own for grad school. I anticipate doing the same for my children.
+1
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Dandy
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Dandy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:03 am

Paid almost all the college expenses for 2 children including grad school. There were some minor awards, work reimbursements, etc that reduced our outlay but essentially it was all. Kids were excellent students, applied themselves, went to state colleges and graduated with excellent grades. They are reasonably equipped to prosper in their given career.

We were fortunate to be able to keep our retirement savings on track and that no one had the burden of college debt. If that were not the case we probably would have helped them with college loans and maybe not funded grad school. This was 15 or 20 years ago and the challenge for parents is now much greater.

It used to be that a high school degree was all that was needed. Up until recently, the bar had been raised to a college degree as a minimum and grad school degree preferred. Today with all the automation I'm not sure what skills training should be recommended -- grad school or trade school. Hard to automate a plumber's craft! But I think parents should try within their means to equip their children for the future.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by cadreamer2015 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:28 am

We paid 100% of their undergraduate expenses, with 3 full freight liberal arts college bills to pay. They are on their own for graduate school. One paid for her Ivy League MA out of earnings and a small inheritance, one got at fully funded PhD, and the third is about to start a fully funded MS program. We got some gifts from my parents to help pay for college, but it was largely funded out of savings and cash flow.
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SagaciousTraveler
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by SagaciousTraveler » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:57 am

Yes but thanks to my brother in law we will do so with restrictions. He simply didn't appreciate that his parents were paying for his school. This resulted in terrible grades, transferring to 4 schools and 7 years to graduate.

That situation is something we will not pay for.

We will want to see good grades, nothing unrealistic but the effort needs to be there. My parents did the same for me, it was a challenge/incentive and I enjoyed holding up my end of the bargain.

4-5 years for undergraduate. Its hard for an 18 year old to know what he/she wants to do. So I expect a major change, my wife and I both did it.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by SQRT » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:17 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:38 pm
SQRT wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:11 am
Paid the whole thing including masters degree, rent, tuition, allowance, car. Best gift a parent can give in my opinion. Glad we could afford it. Not as expensive in Canada. Has resulted in a well paying career for daughter.
Do you recommend Canadian colleges as an option for American students to consider today?
Absolutely. I think foreign students pay more than Canadian citizens but still a very good value when compared to the higher profile US schools.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by livesoft » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:32 am

acegolfer wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:33 pm
TBH, I'm surprised that not many share the same opinion as you. My guess is that this thread is biased against ppl like you. People may not say "No, I'm not going to pay for my kid's college" for fear of getting criticized by others.
My parents told me they would not pay for my college and they didn't. So I told my kids that I was not going to pay for their college. I was overruled by my spouse.
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:40 am

I just paid $8,500 for the first semester for our oldest kid (3 kids). State school, great campus and program she chose.

If our kids choose reasonable state schools with majors that lead to a reasonable income, we will pay. Easy decision.

I ended up with about $10k in student loans. If that happened for each, it wouldn't be the worst scenario. But, I intend to have them graduate debt free if they uphold the grades/initiative end of the bargain.
Last edited by bloom2708 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SQRT
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by SQRT » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:49 am

bampf wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:05 pm


This is a vast simplification of a very complex issue. I also raised the notion of skin in the game and I did so because there is no correct way to do things. I paid for every nickel (more or less) of my higher education. I did it via the military, hard work, scrimping and saving and deferring and you name it. I did it because there was no other choice for me. That being said, I didn't have a great university experience. It was fraught with stress and anxiety over how to pay for the next thing or the last thing. It was too hard and I don't want my kids to have to go through that. On the other hand, I take a lot of pride in the fact that I worked my butt off to achieve what I have achieved. It made me, in many respects, who I am and it colors my viewpoint constantly.

I want my child to feel the pride of contribution, of taking charge of her destiney, of choice and control. I don't want my daughter to struggle like I did, sleep in her car cause she had to or miss out on the "fun" of late teens and early twenties. So, there is balance in the equation.
Yes. It is a complex issue. Every kid is different, not to mention the parents. I also put myself through school. First of my extended family to go to university. My father thought it was a total waste of money and actively discouraged me from getting a higher education. He would mock university grads as “know nothings”. This just made my try harder.

My 20’s was a blur of night school classes, working full time, and financial pressures. No fun whatsoever. I ended up with a BA, MBA, CPA by the time I was 29. Owned my own home. Bad marriage.

The times (1970’s) were quite different than today but even now I marvel at how I did it. But I don’t think it was these accomplishments that made me who I am, rather the accomplishments were an outgrowth of my personality and abilities. But I acknowledge it’s sometimes difficult to determine cause vs effect.

I would never want a child/grandchild of mine to have to go through what I went through. There are enough pressures on young people today without financial ones. I am very generous to my daughter and paid the whole shebang up to masters degree. The more I gave her the harder she worked and the more success she had. She continues to make me very proud of her. I think,perhaps, that my”story” of how I got an education has inspired her to work harder not to disappoint me? Another case of leading through example perhaps. But hard to say.

I fail to see how graduating with a pile of student debt would be character building but maybe for some people?

As someone who really had to struggle and could have used some help along the way, I think “struggle” is overrated in the character building process, especially financial struggle. More often than not, the person will just drop out, or make less than optimal choices when faced with financial hardship. I have decided this will never be the case with my child/grand children. Every day I am thankful we are in a position to help in this way.
Last edited by SQRT on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dandy
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Dandy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:29 am

For those who can afford to pay but decide that they don't want to pay for college. If public high school was not required and not "free" would you not pay for it and allow your children not to attend? The reason I ask this is that I feel college is now what high school used to be i.e. kind of a minimum requirement for a good job. Those days of getting a good manufacturing job with good pay and benefits seem to be a rarity.

I see a few of things in play e.g. the rising requirements from a high school education to college, college expenses seem much higher in in real terms than it used to be and from what I have heard most people don't understand fully the consequences of their actions until about age 26.

The latter point is subtle and with obvious exceptions. But, leaving a critical life decision to an eighteen year old may not be a great idea in most cases. High school is so regimented in many cases that students are still mostly treated like kids e.g. get reminders, have to attend each class once they enter the school etc. College is often the first exposure to being treated more like an adult. You can cut classes -- and pay the consequences. You can party late -- and pay the consequences. etc. You have an 8 o'clock class -- mommy isn't going to wake you. That can be a great and difficult time for students and their parents.

I remember thinking I can get a decent job with benefits by working at the Ford plant. I went to college but working a summer 3rd shift in a plastic factory and other summers in an 8 track factory (remember 8 track?) gave me a better idea. Some struggle is worthwhile but I got mine during attending college not instead of it or postponing it.

Wishing you all well in life's challenging parenting decisions.

likegarden
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by likegarden » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:57 am

Yes for a public college for a bachelor degree. My parents paid for me and brother and sister with help from the state, my wife's parents paid for her and her brother and sister. We paid for our son 2 years for public college and 2 years for private college while living at home. We already have the money for public college for our grandson in a 529. We paid ourselves for Master degrees, also worked during college vacations.

LiterallyIronic
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by LiterallyIronic » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:01 am

No. I figure when our kid turns 18, we'll say, "Here's $10,000, use it on school, or a car, or a wedding, or house down payment, or whatever you want."

We just won't have the money to do anything more than that.

alfaspider
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by alfaspider » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:24 am

Yes, but I will expect them to make a reasonable contribution of their own. The plan is to have everything "paid for" in the form of 529 contributions by the time my present (and hypothetical future) kids are in elementary school.

I am so glad my parents gave me carte blanche for college. No restrictions on the type of school or field of study. I was simply asked to pay 10% of the cost, which at the time was doable with summer and side jobs. It made sure I had skin in the game, but prevented me from having to interrupt or compromise my education to pay for it. Since I am able to do the same for my child, I'm happy to do it.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by stoptothink » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:26 am

acegolfer wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:33 pm
stoptothink wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:50 pm
We happen to live in an area with the cheapest university education in the country. There are two pretty good universities within biking distance of our home where it is quite easy for students to cashflow the entirety of their own education without taking on any debt whatsoever. We haven't 100% decided, and we have plenty of time considering they are 6 and 3, but we are leaning towards not paying for their education. My wife and I not only received zero financial assistance, but both financially helped our parents while pursuing our own education; we agree that it was difficult, but a crucial factor in who we have become. Anecdotally, my wife's sister is the one sibling between us who had her education paid for by parents and she is without a doubt the least successful (from a career standpoint) and the person who values that education the least among the 10 of us...it also was a financial burden on her parents that they are still dealing with 15yrs later.
TBH, I'm surprised that not many share the same opinion as you. My guess is that this thread is biased against ppl like you. People may not say "No, I'm not going to pay for my kid's college" for fear of getting criticized by others.
I don't know that more who share my same viewpoint do not chime in, but there is absolutely a bias against my perspective on this board. There are countless previous threads on this topic and I have even been told that because we will be financially able and don't have plans to pay for the university education of our children, that we will be committing child abuse. Living in an area with particularly cheap university education and two commuter schools very close by, I can tell you that our viewpoint is not abnormal here. Most of the young people I know that are in school or recent graduates (countless family members, most of my work staff) have not received financial assistance from parents and many of them cash-flowed their own education and graduated debt-free.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by soccerrules » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:33 am

My spouse and I were very fortunate to have our education paid for by our parents. I believe this impacted one set of parents ability to save for their own retirement and they will probably need help from their children.

Our plan is to pay for our children's 4 years of undergrad with the intent that they can start off adulthood with no debt. We have required that they earn gas money for their car and any spending money during HS and College. They are required to work during the summer as well as enroll in dual credit and take a summer courses as appropriate.

We have paid for 13 undergrad semesters - 11 to go. (3 kids) We do not plan on paying for any graduate educations, that will be on them.
Don't let your outflow exceed your income or your upkeep will be your downfall.

Dandy
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Dandy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:38 am

that we will be committing child abuse.
You are right to consider that a terrible statement or implication. There are many legitimate reasons for parents not to fund any or all of higher education. I support doing so if parents can afford to but understand that parenting is more of an art not a science and there are many successful approaches to raise children.

stoptothink
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by stoptothink » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:52 am

Dandy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:38 am
that we will be committing child abuse.
You are right to consider that a terrible statement or implication. There are many legitimate reasons for parents not to fund any or all of higher education. I support doing so if parents can afford to but understand that parenting is more of an art not a science and there are many successful approaches to raise children.
Quite frankly, I am shocked that the normal response in these threads is "I was fortunate to have my education paid for in full by my parents, so I will pay it forward." That is not normal where I came from. Virtually nobody I grew up with, at least in my family and circle of friends, received any financial assistance from their parents for college, let alone having it fully funded. Same thing goes for weddings, etc. Maybe it was the financial situation or the culture at-large; either way, we all develop our opinions based strongly upon our own experiences.

Catfish Plumber
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Catfish Plumber » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:00 am

LiterallyIronic wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:01 am
No. I figure when our kid turns 18, we'll say, "Here's $10,000, use it on school, or a car, or a wedding, or house down payment, or whatever you want."

We just won't have the money to do anything more than that.
This is almost exactly our situation and plan, too.

We are looking at many options, though, including potentially free tuition for in state residents.

staythecourse
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by staythecourse » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am

stoptothink wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:52 am
Dandy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:38 am
that we will be committing child abuse.
You are right to consider that a terrible statement or implication. There are many legitimate reasons for parents not to fund any or all of higher education. I support doing so if parents can afford to but understand that parenting is more of an art not a science and there are many successful approaches to raise children.
Quite frankly, I am shocked that the normal response in these threads is "I was fortunate to have my education paid for in full by my parents, so I will pay it forward." That is not normal where I came from. Virtually nobody I grew up with, at least in my family and circle of friends, received any financial assistance from their parents for college, let alone having it fully funded. Same thing goes for weddings, etc. Maybe it was the financial situation or the culture at-large; either way, we all develop our opinions based strongly upon our own experiences.
The reason this is often debated is folk's personal experiences from what they have seen leads to the usual attempt of the human brain to form patterns where likely there are no patterns. For example, "I paid my way through and am successful so that is why I won't do it" or "I had a cousin who had theirs paid for and became a loser so that must be why as they didn't have skin in the game".

The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.

So it is up to each parent to figure out how to balance those factors above. I do think the empirical stories folks give are a waste of time as I have personally seen it go every way possible of paying and not paying for college and the only consistency is there is no consistency.

Good luck.
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acegolfer
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by acegolfer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:38 am

staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
I do think the empirical stories folks give are a waste of time as I have personally seen it go every way possible of paying and not paying for college and the only consistency is there is no consistency.
I agree with everything you said and especially the part quoted above. Every empirical story folks give here = single observation.

financiallycurious
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by financiallycurious » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:39 am

My plan has been to save enough to cover the full cost of attendance (including room & board) at our best in state public university as quickly as possible, then stop 529 contributions and assume that at worst, the 529 plan will keep up with tuition inflation, and at best, the 529 plan will outperform tuition inflation and provide extra money for graduate school or flexibility for out of state options. By contributing $14,000-$15,000 per year, I reached my goal for my first child by the start of first grade, and am now starting all over with an infant. If extra money is available in the future, that's great and I will do what I can, but this is what I consider to be my absolute minimal obligation as a parent, since my parents paid for undergrad and graduate school school, and I feel an obligation to pay it forward to at least cover undergrad. I think I should stop savings in the 529 plan once it reaches the full cost of attendance at our state school and just divert savings into a taxable account to avoid the risk of overfunding, but there is merit to continued savings in the 529 plan as well, and I stew over this one. I probably wouldn't have funded as aggressively if I had to sacrifice maxing out retirement accounts or buying a first home.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by freebeer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:48 am

acegolfer wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:38 am
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
I do think the empirical stories folks give are a waste of time as I have personally seen it go every way possible of paying and not paying for college and the only consistency is there is no consistency.
I agree with everything you said and especially the part quoted above. Every empirical story folks give here = single observation.
Yes and I think folks should not "judge" given drastically differing circumstances. Ex and I will pay full freight for college (undergrad) for both kids, first is at expensive private school who knows about second. Our guidance to kids has been grad school is on them and they should consider and funding for same and ROI vs. working after undergrad as their responsibility. But maximum cost for undergrad for both will be well under 10% of our collective net worth and is already set aside in 529s and we are mortgage-free with remaining net worth sufficient for ER while still in our 50's although we're both still working. So it's not a painful sacrifice and some parents paying only 25% of kids college are clearly sacrificing much more relative to their own consumption / retirement security.

flyingaway
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by flyingaway » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:49 am

Absolutely, before I pay for my own vacations.

mancich
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by mancich » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:57 am

Goal is to pay for most or all of a 4 year degree for a state school. If we can afford to do more we will. However, I'm not one of those parents who will move heaven and earth by borrowing from their 401k, borrowing against the house, etc, to send the kids to a super-expensive Ivy League school.

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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:45 am

Dandy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:29 am
For those who can afford to pay but decide that they don't want to pay for college. If public high school was not required and not "free" would you not pay for it and allow your children not to attend? The reason I ask this is that I feel college is now what high school used to be i.e. kind of a minimum requirement for a good job. Those days of getting a good manufacturing job with good pay and benefits seem to be a rarity.

I see a few of things in play e.g. the rising requirements from a high school education to college, college expenses seem much higher in in real terms than it used to be and from what I have heard most people don't understand fully the consequences of their actions until about age 26.

The latter point is subtle and with obvious exceptions. But, leaving a critical life decision to an eighteen year old may not be a great idea in most cases. High school is so regimented in many cases that students are still mostly treated like kids e.g. get reminders, have to attend each class once they enter the school etc. College is often the first exposure to being treated more like an adult. You can cut classes -- and pay the consequences. You can party late -- and pay the consequences. etc. You have an 8 o'clock class -- mommy isn't going to wake you. That can be a great and difficult time for students and their parents.

I remember thinking I can get a decent job with benefits by working at the Ford plant. I went to college but working a summer 3rd shift in a plastic factory and other summers in an 8 track factory (remember 8 track?) gave me a better idea. Some struggle is worthwhile but I got mine during attending college not instead of it or postponing it.

Wishing you all well in life's challenging parenting decisions.
I agree with this. The degree and future job/career may depend on it. Many employers treat college as a "Can you focus your efforts and skills and study for 4 years, get good grades and not fall victim to all the distractions?" Some will say that college has to change or will change. That may happen. I learned and I expect my kids to learn more about work ethic, focus and perseverance during college than they would heading out into the world.

Here is a short video that students (and parents) should watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QObAkF1_6CE

4 years!
Last edited by bloom2708 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We are not here to please, but to provoke thoughtfulness." --Unknown Boglehead

KlangFool
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:59 am

bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:45 am

I agree with this. The degree and future job/career may depend on it. Some will say that college has to change or will change. That may happen. I learned and I expect my kids to learn more about work ethic, focus and perseverance during college than they would heading out into the world.
bloom2708,

<<Many employers treat college as a "Can you focus your efforts and skills and study for 4 years, get good grades and not fall victim to all the distractions?">>

My older brother worked 40 hours per week while studying for his BSEE. He finished his BSEE in 2 1/2 years and he graduated summa cum laude (CGPA 4.0). He was a general manager of a multi-national corporation before he early retired at 49 years old. So, for me as a hiring manager, a person that was only a full-time student is not as productive and efficient versus someone that can do both productively. I would hire someone with a lower CGPA with good working experience versus a pure full-time student.

<<I learned and I expect my kids to learn more about work ethic, focus and perseverance during college than they would heading out into the world. >>

As a parent, I do not count on others to teach those things to my children. If I cannot teach this over 18 years, it is unlikely that they could learn this over 4 years in the college.

KlangFool

MP173
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by MP173 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm

I am anti debt, particularly for college.

Both of my sons had college funds established (UGTM) set up shortly after birth with regular contributions. Both have graduated with no debt and actually had funds in reserve.

One just graduated and will possibly attend grad school for MBA but he knows that is on his dime. He will explore that option with his employer in the future.

Even with college funded, there were incidentals...it is great to have both out of school and gainfully employed.

In my mentoring of a number of 20 somethings, it has been disheartening to hear of the number of young people with lots of college debt, some of whom will carry it well into their 40s unless something BIG occurs in their lives.

ed

KlangFool
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm

Folks,

I live in a very affluent neighborhood. The annual median household income is 150K and the median house around here is 500K to 600K.

Among my son and my daughter's high school classmates.

A) Less than 25% of the parents pay in full for their kid's college education.

B) 50% of the parents pay a portion and the rest are covered by student loans.

C) 25% of parents pay nothing.

KlangFool

bloom2708
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by bloom2708 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:12 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:59 am
bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:45 am

I agree with this. The degree and future job/career may depend on it. Some will say that college has to change or will change. That may happen. I learned and I expect my kids to learn more about work ethic, focus and perseverance during college than they would heading out into the world.
bloom2708,

<<Many employers treat college as a "Can you focus your efforts and skills and study for 4 years, get good grades and not fall victim to all the distractions?">>

My older brother worked 40 hours per week while studying for his BSEE. He finished his BSEE in 2 1/2 years and he graduated summa cum laude (CGPA 4.0). He was a general manager of a multi-national corporation before he early retired at 49 years old. So, for me as a hiring manager, a person that was only a full-time student is not as productive and efficient versus someone that can do both productively. I would hire someone with a lower CGPA with good working experience versus a pure full-time student.

<<I learned and I expect my kids to learn more about work ethic, focus and perseverance during college than they would heading out into the world. >>

As a parent, I do not count on others to teach those things to my children. If I cannot teach this over 18 years, it is unlikely that they could learn this over 4 years in the college.

KlangFool
I don't expect anyone to teach them those things. They have to figure it out for themselves. My wife and I and family have been working on it for 18 years. We do the best we can. It is a hand-off if you will. We taught you this stuff. Now, go apply it and learn and grow and focus and succeed.
"We are not here to please, but to provoke thoughtfulness." --Unknown Boglehead

acegolfer
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by acegolfer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:16 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm
Folks,

I live in a very affluent neighborhood. The annual median household income is 150K and the median house around here is 500K to 600K.

Among my son and my daughter's high school classmates.

A) Less than 25% of the parents pay in full for their kid's college education.

B) 50% of the parents pay a portion and the rest are covered by student loans.

C) 25% of parents pay nothing.

KlangFool
Source?

bigred77
Posts: 2005
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by bigred77 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:17 pm

I went to an expensive private undergrad. My parents helped as much as they could. I received financial aid and eventually a full ride athletic scholarship to cover my last couple of years. I ended up with roughly 30k in debt. I paid my own way through 2 graduate programs.

I plan to pay for my own kids all the way through, as far as they want to take their formal higher education. It's a great gift. I hope to also help them with weddings, first home down payments, etc. post college. Nobody did it for me but I hope I can do it for them. That gives them a HUGE leg up to try and take it even further for the next generation.

If I can't afford it when the time comes, I can't afford it. But I'm saving money in a 529 for my 5 month old with a plan to make sure there's money set aside to fund whatever comes up.

ThatGuy
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by ThatGuy » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm

staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.

UC Berkeley costs $14,184 in tuition and fees. That's an absolute steal for the name brandness (I know it's not a word). The University of Michigan costs $17,188 for upper division tuition & fees. Georgia Tech is $10,008. Georgia Tech went down from the last time I posted this.

It should be no surprise that rent is atrocious in Berkeley, or Anne Arbor relative to surrounding communities. That's vastly different from claiming that college as a whole is expensive.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde

KlangFool
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:21 pm

acegolfer wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:16 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm
Folks,

I live in a very affluent neighborhood. The annual median household income is 150K and the median house around here is 500K to 600K.

Among my son and my daughter's high school classmates.

A) Less than 25% of the parents pay in full for their kid's college education.

B) 50% of the parents pay a portion and the rest are covered by student loans.

C) 25% of parents pay nothing.

KlangFool
Source?
acegolfer,

This is an informal survey of my daughter and my son's high school classmates. It is consistent with the less than 5% average saving rate of the American. Most Americans cannot afford to help their children in college education funding.

KlangFool

KlangFool
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:29 pm

ThatGuy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.
ThatGuy,

1) Most folks save less than 5%.

2) Many middle-class folks have less than $1,000 in the emergency fund.

3) A very small minority has their retirement fully funded when their kids go to college.

So, to many people, the amount could be 5K, 10K, and/or 15K in tuition. Zero, 5K, 10K, 15K in the room and board. They do not have the money. They cannot afford it. They do not have the extra money. Hence, it is expensive for them.

KlangFool

Bacchus01
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:31 pm

ThatGuy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.

UC Berkeley costs $14,184 in tuition and fees. That's an absolute steal for the name brandness (I know it's not a word). The University of Michigan costs $17,188 for upper division tuition & fees. Georgia Tech is $10,008. Georgia Tech went down from the last time I posted this.

It should be no surprise that rent is atrocious in Berkeley, or Anne Arbor relative to surrounding communities. That's vastly different from claiming that college as a whole is expensive.
UW Madison is about $10,500 for tuition/fees for instate. It's a top 25 world university, and is inside the Top 25-50 in nearly every major discipline.

You're right, in-state flagship Us are still pretty reasonable.

And I don't think graduating college with $30K in student loans (about the average) is in any way hard on people. People take out car loans for much more than that.

Now, if you want to go out of state for a history degree (nothing wrong with history) and pay $75K/year all-in, and then complain because you are now $200K in student loan debt and can only find a job paying $35K a year.....well, rational decision making is probably not your strength.

Bacchus01
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:32 pm

KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:29 pm
ThatGuy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.
ThatGuy,

1) Most folks save less than 5%.

2) Many middle-class folks have less than $1,000 in the emergency fund.

3) A very small minority has their retirement fully funded when their kids go to college.

So, to many people, the amount could be 5K, 10K, and/or 15K in tuition. Zero, 5K, 10K, 15K in the room and board. They do not have the money. They cannot afford it. They do not have the extra money. Hence, it is expensive for them.

KlangFool
And those people likely would earn a substantial aid package.

chipperd
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by chipperd » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:33 pm

ThatGuy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.

UC Berkeley costs $14,184 in tuition and fees. That's an absolute steal for the name brandness (I know it's not a word). The University of Michigan costs $17,188 for upper division tuition & fees. Georgia Tech is $10,008. Georgia Tech went down from the last time I posted this.

It should be no surprise that rent is atrocious in Berkeley, or Anne Arbor relative to surrounding communities. That's vastly different from claiming that college as a whole is expensive.
It's well documented that college costs have outpaced inflation by a large margin over the past couple decades. Tuition at private schools in the Northeast run around 52k/year. That's spectacular, and real.

chipperd
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by chipperd » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:34 pm

chipperd wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:33 pm
ThatGuy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.

UC Berkeley costs $14,184 in tuition and fees. That's an absolute steal for the name brandness (I know it's not a word). The University of Michigan costs $17,188 for upper division tuition & fees. Georgia Tech is $10,008. Georgia Tech went down from the last time I posted this.

It should be no surprise that rent is atrocious in Berkeley, or Anne Arbor relative to surrounding communities. That's vastly different from claiming that college as a whole is expensive.
It's well documented that college costs have outpaced inflation by a large margin over the past couple decades. Tuition at private schools in the Northeast run around 52k/year. That's before room/board/expenses and it's spectacular, and real.

User avatar
DaftInvestor
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by DaftInvestor » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:53 pm

acegolfer wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:16 pm
I'm curious how much will you support your kids.

If yes, to what extent? Part of tuition, in-state full tuition, private university tuition, living expenses?

Edited again
As much as I can afford (which to date has been all of it). When my daughter was trying to decide between going to a $70K a year undergrad and a $25K (with merit scholarships) I asked her to prove to me the more expensive school would provide $180,000 more value. I also explained that the $70K*4 would wipe out her 529 account (and then some) so this would be it for her. I also told her with the less expensive school we would be able to pay for grad school with the money left. The choice was hers - she chose the less expensive school.

I don't believe all the hard-and-fast rules folks seem to have here. It depends upon your kid if you think they need "Skin in the Game" or not. My kids are responsible enough on their own and have proven there was no need to have "skin in the game".

Note that your views may change in the future. I had a different view on what I was going to do when I was young and my kids were young. As I grew older and saw how much my children wanted to exceed (and became better off financially) my views changed. I certainly don't won't to straddle them with the student loan debt I started off with.

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HomerJ
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by HomerJ » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:56 pm

SQRT wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:49 am
I fail to see how graduating with a pile of student debt would be character building but maybe for some people?
A pile of student debt by itself doesn't build character at all. That's borrowed money that the student still has to pay back. They haven't worked for that money yet. "Skin in the game" to me is making sure the student is contributing SOMETHING throughout the college years.

Again, some kids can learn by example, or words alone. Most I think need to feel poor, to make hard choices, in order to truly learn about money. If you're given everything you want, with zero financial decisions to make all through college, I believe that's not good, for most kids (some kids are the exceptions - the BHers do seem to have a large quantity of exceptional children)

It can be combination of both, by the way. My kids learn plenty about money from me talking about it. But I also gave them that extra little bit of struggle to finish their character building.
As someone who really had to struggle and could have used some help along the way, I think “struggle” is overrated in the character building process, especially financial struggle. More often than not, the person will drop out, or make less than optimal choices when faced with financial hardship. I have decided this will never be the case with my child/grand children. Every day I am thankful we are in a position to help in this way.
You make good points. Obviously, too much struggle has a negative effect on many people. But note there's a reason you are worth tens of millions. You don't think your early life had any effect on your personality or character? You'd be the exact same person today if everything (financially) had been handed to you right up until you were 25?
The J stands for Jay

KlangFool
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by KlangFool » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:32 pm
KlangFool wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:29 pm
ThatGuy wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:18 pm
staythecourse wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:30 am
The only realities are: 1. College and graduate school costs have increased for EVERYONE since they last went to school (20 years ago+), 2. Paying for college costs are expensive and for most will have some dent to their personal savings themselves for retirement, and 3. College debt is starting behind the 8 ball for your kid's financial lives as every dollar they pay to someone else is one less dollar to save for themselves. These are hard to argue are not going to continue going forward.
Public college is NOT particularly expensive. What gets you is the room & board, which has to be taken care of in some manner regardless. I'm rather tired of the persistent myth trotted out here that college is expensive.
ThatGuy,

1) Most folks save less than 5%.

2) Many middle-class folks have less than $1,000 in the emergency fund.

3) A very small minority has their retirement fully funded when their kids go to college.

So, to many people, the amount could be 5K, 10K, and/or 15K in tuition. Zero, 5K, 10K, 15K in the room and board. They do not have the money. They cannot afford it. They do not have the extra money. Hence, it is expensive for them.

KlangFool
And those people likely would earn a substantial aid package.
Bacchus01,

Not if their household income is 150K and above.

KlangFool

Gnirk
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Location: Western Washington

Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Gnirk » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:05 pm

My Dh and I each paid for our kids college expenses, or at least most of them. The kids had to work part-time while attending university. All graduated debt-free.

Now, DH is helping to pay all four granddaughters' college expenses. The two currently in college also work part-time, and one was able to go to a good private university with some help from generous scholarships, along with help from Grandpa. He had gifted them stock in his company over the years, and when the company was sold, that money was put into 529's. He also contributes directly each year to those currently in college. We feel that in today's high cost of higher education, that this is a gift that will last them a life-time.

Broken Man 1999
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:07 pm

There are many parents, including myself, who would advocate a student to consider attending a State "flagship" university. For many, attending such an institution would be a financial plus.

However, for anyone considering attending public universities, it might pay to check out the SAT/ACT/GPAs of the incoming classes.

A friend and I attended the same public university, and opined we might not be able to get into the university today with the credentials that served us well so many years ago!

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Will you pay for your kids' college/graduate education?

Post by NotWhoYouThink » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:14 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:31 pm


UW Madison is about $10,500 for tuition/fees for instate. It's a top 25 world university, and is inside the Top 25-50 in nearly every major discipline.

You're right, in-state flagship Us are still pretty reasonable.

And I don't think graduating college with $30K in student loans (about the average) is in any way hard on people. People take out car loans for much more than that.

Now, if you want to go out of state for a history degree (nothing wrong with history) and pay $75K/year all-in, and then complain because you are now $200K in student loan debt and can only find a job paying $35K a year.....well, rational decision making is probably not your strength.
Great news! You can't do that! Students are limited in what they can borrow, it would be hard to graduate with more than about $30K in debt. Parents can borrow substantially more through Parent Plus loans, or could even co-sign commercial loans for their students. But that would be the parents' (stupid) decision and responsibility.

Locked