DW job in dangerous area

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Meaty
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Meaty » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:48 am

matthewbarnhart wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:24 am
jminv wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:07 am
It depends on how 'unsafe' the area really is and then how unsafe the school property is, since she will be commuting back and forth to a parking lot on or next to school grounds or if it's by public transport then how far away the stop is. Even the local crime statistics would be misleading since that's in the neighborhood, not at the school, and the majority of the targets are other people that live in the neighborhood.

If you want to find out how unsafe it actually is, talk to the other teachers at the school. If it were extremely unsafe to commute back and forth to campus and to be inside the campus, there would be no teachers or the pay would be hazard pay (I'm aware that some of these schools pay extra but not much extra because of their undesirability). There's probably some risk but it's also likely low. What makes the schools undesirable has more to do with classroom management, situations that are uncomfortable, and dealing with agressive parents. That's the part I personally would want to avoid. On the other hand, it can be good to have an experience outside one's zone of comfort.

New teachers have to start somewhere and in urban districts that's often at a school in a neighborhood you'd otherwise avoid. She's not going to find a job at the best school in town so if you hold out for that, you'll be holding out for awhile. It might be a good experience and a way to appreciate how much harder things can be once she moves on to a more advantaged school.
+1

Also remember: with very few exceptions, none of the "bad areas" of Chicago are war zones. They're neighborhoods where people live, work, have families, grow up, and otherwise live regular lives. Yes, there's more poverty and crime and other social problems, but in general they're full of people who just want to have a good life for themselves and their families. The chances of dying of heart disease, cancer, or yes, a car wreck are exponentially higher than being the victim of a random act of violence as a CPS school teacher. Basic street smarts and taking the time to know your neighbors goes a long way toward increasing your feelings of personal safety.

That said, none of us have to wake up every day and be your DW.

(For reference, I work in East Garfield Park [a "bad" neighborhood], commuting by bike from Logan Square (a recently-gentrified neighborhood) through Humboldt Park [a "transitioning" neighborhood]. I grew up in the country in Texas and spent most of my adult life in a relatively bucolic college town before moving here 6 years ago.)
I agree with this in part, but from my experience 90%+ of people in war zones just want to work, take care of their family, etc. I’ve worked in the worst parts of south Chicago - in many respects it wasn’t different than Iraq. There’s no IEDs but the threat of catching a bullet isn’t much different than many smaller Iraqi cities
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Jim Beaux
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Jim Beaux » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am

Pajamas wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:43 pm
ddurrett896 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:03 pm
But a gun, learn how to shoot, carry the gun.
She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.

Concealed means concealed.

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Pajamas
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Pajamas » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:59 am

Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am
Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.
It certainly should be illegal then.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Rupert » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:01 pm

Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am
Pajamas wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:43 pm
ddurrett896 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:03 pm
But a gun, learn how to shoot, carry the gun.
She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.

Concealed means concealed.
You should read up on the federal Gun Free School Zones Act (the most recent version, not the old version invalidated in United States v. Lopez). You're not completely wrong, but your statements are overbroad.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:09 pm

I guess it is no surprise that this would devolve into a gun debate. It is very obvious that it would. The decision to take a job where you feel threatened is either motivated by financial desperation or a desire to do something noble over a concern for your (perception as per OP) safety. The financial one is obviously nonexistent. The financial reasons make less sense after taxes going from $200k-$240k, especially in Illinois. Career decision? Who knows. There will be incredible regret if something bad happens.
Last edited by goodenyou on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pajamas
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Pajamas » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:12 pm

goodenyou wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:09 pm
I guess it is no surprise that this would devolve into a gun debate. It is very obvious that it would.
It certainly didn't need to. I doubt that would seriously be considered an acceptable solution by B3GINN3R's wife, anyway. "I was worried about taking a job in a dangerous neighborhood but I'm good to go if I'm packing! BRING'EM ON!"

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Pajamas wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:12 pm
goodenyou wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:09 pm
I guess it is no surprise that this would devolve into a gun debate. It is very obvious that it would.
It certainly didn't need to. I doubt that would seriously be considered an acceptable solution by B3GINN3R's wife, anyway. "I was worried about taking a job in a dangerous neighborhood but I'm good to go if I'm packing! BRING'EM ON!"
Maybe she could get a second career as a SWAT officer or security. :D
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Jim Beaux
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Jim Beaux » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:22 pm

Rupert wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:01 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am
Pajamas wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:43 pm
ddurrett896 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:03 pm
But a gun, learn how to shoot, carry the gun.
She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.

Concealed means concealed.
You should read up on the federal Gun Free School Zones Act (the most recent version, not the old version invalidated in United States v. Lopez). You're not completely wrong, but your statements are overbroad.
I dont mean to sound contentious, but if you can, please provide the statute addressing this. I would like to read it. BTW I agree, my statement was somewhat broad.
Last edited by Jim Beaux on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alfaspider
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by alfaspider » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:23 pm

Riley15 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:52 pm

Wondering what kind of job pays 200k out of grad school without any experience.
Large law firms in major cities. Market rate (and it is pretty standardized among top firms) first year salary is $190k, $200k for second year + bonuses.
Last edited by alfaspider on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rupert
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Rupert » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:23 pm

Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:22 pm
Rupert wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:01 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am
Pajamas wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:43 pm
ddurrett896 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:03 pm
But a gun, learn how to shoot, carry the gun.
She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.

Concealed means concealed.
You should read up on the federal Gun Free School Zones Act (the most recent version, not the old version invalidated in United States v. Lopez). You're not completely wrong, but your statements are overbroad.
I dont mean to sound contentious, but if you can, please provide the statute addressing this. I would like to read it.
Google "Gun Free School Zones Act." There's even a Wikipedia page.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Jim Beaux » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:38 pm

Rupert wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:23 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:22 pm
Rupert wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:01 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am
Pajamas wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:43 pm


She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.

Concealed means concealed.
You should read up on the federal Gun Free School Zones Act (the most recent version, not the old version invalidated in United States v. Lopez). You're not completely wrong, but your statements are overbroad.
I dont mean to sound contentious, but if you can, please provide the statute addressing this. I would like to read it.
Google "Gun Free School Zones Act." There's even a Wikipedia page.
No help from google or wikipedia. Im being sincere. Its more important to me to know the law then it is to win a debate- and with that in mind, I cant find any federal statute prohibiting a gun in the car in a school parking lot.

keepingitsimple
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by keepingitsimple » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:54 pm

B3GINN3R wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:18 pm
My wife just graduated school. I make about 200k. We have no debt and we are both 26 y.o., so we just started saving. She has been working very hard to get a job and finally landed one! She will make about 40k pretax. i.e. her salary will not push the needle lifestyle or savings-wise. Unfortunately, the job she got is in a pretty dangerous part of town and she works at a school. Would your advice be for her to take the job even if she feels a little uncomfortable safety wise so that she can start her career? or is it worth it for her to keep interviewing, perhaps unsuccessfully, and pass up on the job in the dangerous neighborhood? Really struggling on safety vs. career importance. Looking for some boglehead wisdom.
If in your shoes, I would encourage holding out for a different job offer. Working in a dangerous area, whether the danger is real or perceived, is likely to generate daily stress and worry for both of you. Fortunately, your household income is such that holding out for a better offer seems an option.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Pajamas » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:56 pm

Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:38 pm

No help from google or wikipedia. Im being sincere. Its more important to me to know the law then it is to win a debate- and with that in mind, I cant find any federal statute prohibiting a gun in the car in a school parking lot.
Okay, here you go, in brochure form from ATF so you can print it out:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide ... tf-p-53101

If the person has a state permit to carry and the gun is both unloaded and in a locked container, it is okay under federal law to keep it in the car. (I'm not sure how much good that would do anyone in danger.) However, state and local laws would also apply and the school system's policies would also apply to an employee.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Katietsu » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:00 pm

To the OP: I would encourage your wife to explore the job and talk to her potential colleagues. I agree with the original thought process of the income from the job not being worth fearing for your life every day. However, like some of the others here (at least before he gun debate took over), I have chosen to live or work at times in areas that could be described as less desirable or, by some, as “dangerous.” I have found these experiences to be fulfilling. Honestly, the most frightening experiences of my life have been in an “Ivory Tower” and in a neighborhood of million dollar houses.

I would think the choice may be akin to deciding whether or not to take a ROTC scholarship. The money is a great benefit but needs to be secondary in the decision making process.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by HomerJ » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:01 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:24 pm
Whats the worst that can happen? Are you both willing to pay that price? If yes then take the job. If not decline.
That's a silly argument.

The worst that can happen, anywhere, doing nearly anything, is death.

Should I never drive a car, or swim in a pool, or turn on a stove, or even walk down the stairs because the "worst that can happen" doing those things is death?
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Rupert » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:05 pm

Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:38 pm
Rupert wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:23 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:22 pm
Rupert wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:01 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:53 am


Youre mistaken. In regards to gun carry, federal Law only applies to federally controlled facilities. Guns are prohibited in certain parks, post offices, military bases, federal offices, lands administered by Corp of Engineers, etc. Gun carry permits are issued by state agencies. Gun laws differ greatly from state to state.

Concealed means concealed.
You should read up on the federal Gun Free School Zones Act (the most recent version, not the old version invalidated in United States v. Lopez). You're not completely wrong, but your statements are overbroad.
I dont mean to sound contentious, but if you can, please provide the statute addressing this. I would like to read it.
Google "Gun Free School Zones Act." There's even a Wikipedia page.
No help from google or wikipedia. Im being sincere. Its more important to me to know the law then it is to win a debate- and with that in mind, I cant find any federal statute prohibiting a gun in the car in a school parking lot.
I said you weren't completely wrong but that your statements were overbroad -- imprecise -- which could lead someone to make a mistake. It's not precise to say that federal law does not apply to gun carry except on federally-controlled property. Federal law does govern gun carry under the Gun Free School Zones Act unless you fall into one of the exceptions to the Act. Read the letter on the Wikipedia page re how the ATF interprets the Act: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 3gfsza.pdf

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Pajamas » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:06 pm

Katietsu wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:00 pm
Honestly, the most frightening experiences of my life have been in an “Ivory Tower” and in a neighborhood of million dollar houses.
Would you be willing to share some of those experiences here?

blackburnian
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by blackburnian » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:06 pm

Another consideration is what would be best for the students. If she is very fearful of the neighborhood (whatever the objective danger level is), it might be hard for her to relate to the community and the students.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by random user 320 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:09 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:01 pm
The Outsider wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:24 pm
Whats the worst that can happen? Are you both willing to pay that price? If yes then take the job. If not decline.
That's a silly argument.

The worst that can happen, anywhere, doing nearly anything, is death.

Should I never drive a car, or swim in a pool, or turn on a stove, or even walk down the stairs because the "worst that can happen" doing those things is death?
Micromorts! :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Tamarind » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:13 pm

goodenyou wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:40 am
BogleFanGal wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:07 am
Tamarind wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:26 pm
Check your gut feeling with some numbers before deciding. I live in the neighborhood with the "highest crime rate" in my city, which leads some folks from other neighborhoods to jump to conclusions. What that means in practice is an increased chance of losing an unlocked bicycle, and occasionally witnessing drug use in public. The relative status has to be taken in context of a small, safe city.
This is so true - I once lived in a nice, peaceful suburban neighborhood with a high crime rating. All because there was a nearby mall (3 miles away) with a lot of shoplifting incidents. Because we were in the same zip, we were lumped in with that. Those stats can be misleading.
Didn’t the OP say he was referring to Southside Chicago? There is no confusion in the crime statistics there. I lived in Chicago and my wife worked at U of Chicago Hospital.
OP says it is not Southside but similar, elsewhere in Chicago. My point is not to downplay crime in Chicago, just that the stats need to be taken in their geographical context, whatever that is. Dispel the aura of "dangerous", which can be real or exaggerated, and quantify what you're concerned about. Then OP's wife has to make the more emotional decision if the job is worth that risk.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:50 pm

Tamarind wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:13 pm
goodenyou wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:40 am
BogleFanGal wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:07 am
Tamarind wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:26 pm
Check your gut feeling with some numbers before deciding. I live in the neighborhood with the "highest crime rate" in my city, which leads some folks from other neighborhoods to jump to conclusions. What that means in practice is an increased chance of losing an unlocked bicycle, and occasionally witnessing drug use in public. The relative status has to be taken in context of a small, safe city.
This is so true - I once lived in a nice, peaceful suburban neighborhood with a high crime rating. All because there was a nearby mall (3 miles away) with a lot of shoplifting incidents. Because we were in the same zip, we were lumped in with that. Those stats can be misleading.
Didn’t the OP say he was referring to Southside Chicago? There is no confusion in the crime statistics there. I lived in Chicago and my wife worked at U of Chicago Hospital.
OP says it is not Southside but similar, elsewhere in Chicago. My point is not to downplay crime in Chicago, just that the stats need to be taken in their geographical context, whatever that is. Dispel the aura of "dangerous", which can be real or exaggerated, and quantify what you're concerned about. Then OP's wife has to make the more emotional decision if the job is worth that risk.

Maybe the OP misspoke, but this is taken from his post above:
Nothing is worth her feeling uncomfortable every day at work. And as many of you have cleverly deduced, this is a teaching job in southside chicago
He also states that "not Southside but similar" in another post. Having been from Chicago, and knowing the neighborhoods, and having been a Trauma surgery resident at the (old) Cook County Hospital Knife and Gun Club, and my wife having worked at U of Chicago Hospitals. and my FIL still living there, I know something about the area and violent crime. Not an expert, but have some familiarity with the past. It is A LOT worse now. There are areas on the Westside that are very dangerous too. Garfield Park is not very safe either. I would imagine a decision about safety and life and death would be a decision for both partners to make together.
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:00 pm

Lake Living wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:46 pm
St. Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans, Detroit, Cleveland, Kansas City, Memphis, and Newark all have higher homicide rates than Chicago.
You have to be really careful with statistics. In the case of St. Louis, the city seceeded from the county back in the 19th century. So the city hasn't been about to grow by absorbing suburban areas. If you look at metro area crime stats, St. Louis is nowhere near the top. The police chief recently released figures that showed that over 65% of homicides occurred in one small area of the north side of the city.
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by donall » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:12 pm

OP, will your wife work in a high school or K-8? Schools are often the safest place in a neighborhood. Your wife will be surrounded by other school personnel that includes security guards. High schools are inherently less safe than grade schools but often have more security guards, police, social workers, counselors, and metal detectors. Staff (including teachers) are trained to recognize gang signals and other demonstrations of allegiance. Classrooms have panic buttons and direct lines to the principal’s office.

Children and parents are the same no matter where the school is located. Parents want the best for their children, even if they have difficulty demonstrating this. With a great mentor teacher, supportive school administration and involved faculty and staff this could be a great experience. While without these supports this experience could be so awful that she runs out of the school within a week. So the key ingredient here is the school environment.

The area surrounding schools is often not safe. There are often hot spots where fights happen regularly. Sports events can be venues for competing gangs. Also, if she is a physical education teacher, she should probably pass on this position as often PE classes are large.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by matthewbarnhart » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:20 pm

goodenyou wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:50 pm
He also states that "not Southside but similar" in another post. Having been from Chicago, and knowing the neighborhoods, and having been a Trauma surgery resident at the (old) Cook County Hospital Knife and Gun Club, and my wife having worked at U of Chicago Hospitals. and my FIL still living there, I know something about the area and violent crime. Not an expert, but have some familiarity with the past. It is A LOT worse now. There are areas on the Westside that are very dangerous too. Garfield Park is not very safe either. I would imagine a decision about safety and life and death would be a decision for both partners to make together.
No one disputes that a lot of neighborhoods on the South and West sides of Chicago have a lot of crime and violence.

But how many of those trauma patients at CC or U of C hospital were CPS teachers? Or came in during regular working hours from near schools, even?

A level-headed risk assessment of the actual situation is far more valuable than personal anecdotes (mine included!). Bogleheads do this in finance by balancing their equity/bond allocation. The same decision-making process should apply to all choices in life.

The best people to provide this advice would be those in the same situation OP's DW would be in: her potential co-workers.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:24 pm

Children and parents are the same no matter where the school is located
In an ideal world, this would be true. This is categorically false. It is the reason that there are problems with the schools. Parents are absent, drug-addicted or in prison in alarming rates. Having great teachers make the sacrifice to teach in a high crime area is a noble thing, but it is for them to decide if they are willing to put their safety at risk.
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:42 pm

matthewbarnhart wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:20 pm
goodenyou wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:50 pm
He also states that "not Southside but similar" in another post. Having been from Chicago, and knowing the neighborhoods, and having been a Trauma surgery resident at the (old) Cook County Hospital Knife and Gun Club, and my wife having worked at U of Chicago Hospitals. and my FIL still living there, I know something about the area and violent crime. Not an expert, but have some familiarity with the past. It is A LOT worse now. There are areas on the Westside that are very dangerous too. Garfield Park is not very safe either. I would imagine a decision about safety and life and death would be a decision for both partners to make together.
No one disputes that a lot of neighborhoods on the South and West sides of Chicago have a lot of crime and violence.

But how many of those trauma patients at CC or U of C hospital were CPS teachers? Or came in during regular working hours from near schools, even?

A level-headed risk assessment of the actual situation is far more valuable than personal anecdotes (mine included!). Bogleheads do this in finance by balancing their equity/bond allocation. The same decision-making process should apply to all choices in life.

The best people to provide this advice would be those in the same situation OP's DW would be in: her potential co-workers.
If the OP would like to make the leap that, because teachers don't usually represent trauma patients at CC or U of C, then she should be safe, then that is their decision. I wouldn't. But, as a Boglehead, that would be my decision and the recommendation for my loved one.
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by bltn » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:03 pm

Having quickly skimmed the thread, and being a former resident in the city of Chicago, I would decide that my wife s safety is worth far more than a nice salary or job.
I d go for less money in a safe place in any big city.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Pajamas » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:12 pm

bltn wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:03 pm
Having quickly skimmed the thread, and being a former resident in the city of Chicago, I would decide that my wife s safety is worth far more than a nice salary or job.
I d go for less money in a safe place in any big city.
Same should be true in suburban and rural areas. Guns are more of a problem in schools in those areas and violence involving guns can have more serious consequences than violence that doesn't involve guns.

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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by 41Fin » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:18 am

ddurrett896 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:24 pm
Pajamas wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:43 pm
ddurrett896 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:03 pm
But a gun, learn how to shoot, carry the gun.
She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
Don’t do it at school. Carry to and from school
And lock in vehicle.
Then you have to worry about the vehicle being broken into and the gun stolen/used in a crime.

wrongfunds
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by wrongfunds » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:21 am

I would have never thought that gun discussion would be allowed in BH forum. May be it does not fall under politics?

I mean "carry a gun" advice to school teacher teaching grade school children can only be topped by "Drive a tank with turret mounted gun" to make the commute safe :-)

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goodenyou
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:44 am

wrongfunds wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:21 am
I would have never thought that gun discussion would be allowed in BH forum. May be it does not fall under politics?

I mean "carry a gun" advice to school teacher teaching grade school children can only be topped by "Drive a tank with turret mounted gun" to make the commute safe :-)
You got it in before it was closed!
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" | "The best years you have left are the ones you have right now"

The Outsider
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by The Outsider » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:52 am

HomerJ wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:01 pm
The Outsider wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:24 pm
Whats the worst that can happen? Are you both willing to pay that price? If yes then take the job. If not decline.
That's a silly argument.

The worst that can happen, anywhere, doing nearly anything, is death.

Should I never drive a car, or swim in a pool, or turn on a stove, or even walk down the stairs because the "worst that can happen" doing those things is death?
Perhaps I didn't explain myself well. Your statement seems to ignore risk mitigation, and cost benefit analysis. Lets start from a position I think we'd both agree on: life is not risk free. My point was all of us should identify the risks and determine if the perceived benefits of any action are worth it if the worst occurs. I don't just assume "everything will always be OK".

Using your examples:
Should you drive a car without first learning how to drive? Should you ride a motorcycle without a helmet? Should one swim in the ocean without evaluating conditions and comparing to one's abilities?

It's not just the probability of something bad happening, its also what's at stake.

And the worst that can happen isnt always death, although I concede thats a biggy:)

Best wishes to OP and DW

wrongfunds
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by wrongfunds » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:53 am

Are you implying that it will be *my fault* if this topic gets closed down?

KyleAAA
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by KyleAAA » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:01 pm

In my experience, most "dangerous" neighborhoods aren't really dangerous at all for outsiders. I would caution against making a decision based on how safe you "feel" because those feelings are almost universally wrong. Look at the crime stats, which should be easy to find.

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Pajamas
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Pajamas » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:32 pm

KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:01 pm
In my experience, most "dangerous" neighborhoods aren't really dangerous at all for outsiders. I would caution against making a decision based on how safe you "feel" because those feelings are almost universally wrong. Look at the crime stats, which should be easy to find.
Is someone who works in an neighborhood considered an outsider?

I agree that you have to look behind the numbers. For instance, the area I live in has a very high crime rate. Crime rates are generally reported based on the number of people who live in an area and there is a large daily influx of people who live elsewhere plus the majority of crimes are against property rather than people (particularly shoplifting, credit card fraud, and similar), so the high crime rate doesn't rationally create fear. If it were due to violent crimes, it would be different.

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goodenyou
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by goodenyou » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:10 am

Pajamas wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:32 pm
KyleAAA wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:01 pm
In my experience, most "dangerous" neighborhoods aren't really dangerous at all for outsiders. I would caution against making a decision based on how safe you "feel" because those feelings are almost universally wrong. Look at the crime stats, which should be easy to find.
Is someone who works in an neighborhood considered an outsider?

I agree that you have to look behind the numbers. For instance, the area I live in has a very high crime rate. Crime rates are generally reported based on the number of people who live in an area and there is a large daily influx of people who live elsewhere plus the majority of crimes are against property rather than people (particularly shoplifting, credit card fraud, and similar), so the high crime rate doesn't rationally create fear. If it were due to violent crimes, it would be different.
Do you mean violent crimes like this weekend?

63 shot, 10 dead in Chicago since Friday

http://abc7chicago.com/8-wounded-in-gre ... y/3886976/

But, I know, teachers don’t work at night or on weekends.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" | "The best years you have left are the ones you have right now"

3feetpete
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by 3feetpete » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:27 pm

Economically it doesn't make sense for her to work this job however there are other things at work here like her feeling of self worth perhaps. If she does take the job you can take comfort in that most of the crime probably takes place late at night. I used to have to go into the South Bronx which at the time was probably as dangerous as South Chicago is now. But during the day, the only people that were out and about were the working folk.

Flashes1
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Flashes1 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:29 pm

I would carry fire power.

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Jazztonight
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Jazztonight » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:53 pm

This is a sad thread. My thoughts and observations:

Children need good teachers.

Some teachers will step up to the plate and teach at schools that are in "dangerous" neighborhoods. Many will have long, satisfying careers and have a positive impact on many students who will forever be grateful to them. Other teachers will leave.

Schools, regardless of where they are located, are communities striving to do and be the best they can.

Gun violence is not going away anytime soon, whether teachers are carrying heat or not.

Drug and alcohol abuse can be found in virtually every school system. I became aware of this when the child of good friends was suspended from one of the "best" high schools in California. I know the Dean of Students of an upscale private high school who deals with drugs and expulsions of students every year.

This is not a question of money. Most of us have been victims of crime regardless of where we live. In the end, you gotta do what you gotta do.
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche

Jim Beaux
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Jim Beaux » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:07 pm

Pajamas wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:56 pm
Jim Beaux wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:38 pm

No help from google or wikipedia. Im being sincere. Its more important to me to know the law then it is to win a debate- and with that in mind, I cant find any federal statute prohibiting a gun in the car in a school parking lot.
Okay, here you go, in brochure form from ATF so you can print it out:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide ... tf-p-53101

If the person has a state permit to carry and the gun is both unloaded and in a locked container, it is okay under federal law to keep it in the car. (I'm not sure how much good that would do anyone in danger.) However, state and local laws would also apply and the school system's policies would also apply to an employee.
As I earlier agreed, I was over broad in where fed gun carry laws apply - but the 5310-1 brochure you linked to does not prohibit a 'permitted person" from possessing a gun in the car on school property.
It also doesnt validate your contention:
She probably wouldn't be able to get a permit to do that at school and the penalty for doing so illegally is up to $5k or 5 years under federal law and she would almost certainly lose her job, as well, which undermines taking the job in the first place.
I dont know every state's gun carry laws, but some states permit the unlicensed possession of a hand gun in a car. In law there is always ifs-ands-buts-- and this could be an interesting court case in Texas.

Texas Motorist Protection Act
http://coferlaw.com/4862/is-it-illegal- ... -in-texas/

I dont want to hijack this thread, so if you want, start another forum.

Leemiller
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Re: DW job in dangerous area

Post by Leemiller » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:17 pm

I lived in a neighborhood like that. After many cat calls, some that were crude and threatening, my last straw was a large rock throw at my head.

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