Joint Ownership of home with second wife

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Dottie57
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:28 pm

Prenup, prenup, prenup.

123
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by 123 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:31 pm

Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:28 pm
Prenup, prenup, prenup.
+1 Yes and RENT, RENT, RENT
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Dottie57
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:25 pm

123 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:31 pm
Dottie57 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:28 pm
Prenup, prenup, prenup.
+1 Yes and RENT, RENT, RENT
If you can’t come to an equitable solution on buying and maintaining, I would certainly rent.

If they buy, I would have 2 options.

1. One owner. The other pays a market rate rent.
2. Each has 50% ownership. This implies an even split in everything.

Otherwise rent or don’t get married.

If marry, get prenup.

Dottie57
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:32 pm

stimulacra wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:27 pm
Seems like it would be in your future wife's best interest to have you sell your current (separate property) and roll or commingle that equity into a new home (communal property). I wouldn't do it. I would be more inclined to turn your old home into a rental.

That and some other things you mentioned have red flag all over it. Consult a lawyer, be an advocate for your children's interest and put your wishes down in writing. Verbal wishes and agreements have a way of changing as circumstances evolve.
Red flags +

gotester2000
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by gotester2000 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:40 pm

OP,

Both of you have to accept each other with all your assets and liabilities - house, money and kids. Enter a marriage only if you are fine with this and she with your kids. Both of your assets will be shared equally and not on basis of earnings and asset values. Let her know if you dont agree with buying a new house or can share your current house with her - starting new does not mean forgetting your kids.

Good luck finding a spouse who will not care for her financial well being.

Nutmeg
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Nutmeg » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:20 pm

scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm
Originally had considered a marriage as equals, despite the disparities, but the sig other has made it clear that she has distaste for inheritances due to experience with and perception of siblings not making good use of inheritance (I don't agree with her 100%). I have an entirely different experience - my siblings and I were fortunate enough to have some inheritance, and believe we used it for good cause - getting college educations in professional programs and investing the rest for the long term (meaning even more potential inheritance for my kids)

I digress, but that difference in a opinion lead me to make sure to have a prenup that protected the children's inheritance, mainly by defaulting all property to nonmarital. Needless to say, she did not like that or really understand concept (she's never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage). So this situation is pretty ugly of estate succession dilemma (to top it off I'm pretty young, and really want to defer these decisions for later in life). I do want to leave her secure in the event of my death, but don't want to assign a number right now .
I initially read the first paragraph thinking that if the prospective wife has a distaste for inheritances, she can donate any inheritance she receives in the future to charity ... and then I read the second paragraph (in which you stated that you are therefore protecting your children‘s inheritance) and realized that she has a distaste for your leaving an inheritance to your own children.

It appears that you are being charitable to her in stating that she has never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage. The challenge here is that a prenup must be signed before the wedding to be enforceable, so she is not going to ever have the experience of marriage before she signs it. Similarly, it is not possible to defer many of the decisions until later in life. You can change your will but not your prenup after the wedding (and the prenup might state that you agree to draw up a will with certain provisions that reflect the intent of the prenup).

I am also concerned that a lawyer drew up a generic prenup. Which party did the lawyer represent? You two have different interests, so you each need an attorney to advise you.

I have additional concerns about how she apparently views your children. Please don’t rush into this marriage!

msk
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by msk » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:51 am

I agree that the prospects for this marriage look grim, but I would start off in an optimistic mood and buy the house with 4 owners, you, your spouse + the 2 kids. Pay 3/4 of all house related expenses. If you drop dead at least your kids have something to sell. It may yet work out... Lots of couples (arranged marriages) start off somewhat luke warm but in time grow deeply in love. Good luck!

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by denovo » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:29 am

scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm
Originally had considered a marriage as equals, despite the disparities, but the sig other has made it clear that she has distaste for inheritances due to experience with and perception of siblings not making good use of inheritance (I don't agree with her 100%). I have an entirely different experience - my siblings and I were fortunate enough to have some inheritance, and believe we used it for good cause - getting college educations in professional programs and investing the rest for the long term (meaning even more potential inheritance for my kids)

I digress, but that difference in a opinion lead me to make sure to have a prenup that protected the children's inheritance, mainly by defaulting all property to nonmarital. Needless to say, she did not like that or really understand concept (she's never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage). So this situation is pretty ugly of estate succession dilemma (to top it off I'm pretty young, and really want to defer these decisions for later in life). I do want to leave her secure in the event of my death, but don't want to assign a number right now .
OP, let me spell it out for you. You are marrying someone younger you. Women live longer than man by a significant margin. She wants to take all your assets and leave nothing to your children. If you are ok with this get married. If not, do not get married. Those are your only options.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

denovo
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by denovo » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:32 am

scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm

I digress, but that difference in a opinion lead me to make sure to have a prenup that protected the children's inheritance, mainly by defaulting all property to nonmarital. Needless to say, she did not like that or really understand concept (she's never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage). So this situation is pretty ugly of estate succession dilemma (to top it off I'm pretty young, and really want to defer these decisions for later in life). I do want to leave her secure in the event of my death, but don't want to assign a number right now .

OP, I am confused and it may help if you update the post. Are you already married to her or not? Did you get married without a prenup?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln

chevca
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by chevca » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:17 am

cheese_breath wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:26 pm
I'm just wondering, what are some of the good things about this woman that make you so compelled to want to marry her in spite of all the conflicting values you've already described, because I would wager there are others you haven't told us about.
This is what I was thinking as well. Why does the OP want to marry this woman??

Obviously, we don't know the OP or their relationship, but from what's been posted.... why marry?

OP, this woman does want to be the step-mom to your children, right? You guys do want to be a blended family, right? I assume your kids won't live with you 100% of the time. When your kids are with their mother, does it go to splitting utilities 50/50 since there's just two of you then... and, then back to her paying 1/3 or whatever when the kids are there? I mean, if things are going to be complicated, why not just completely complicate them?

There is way too much of what is "fair" and how things should be split up, who gets what, and what do the kids get already. I don't think this situation should become a marriage. Just keep dating and/or living together.

JoeRetire
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:35 am

scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm
I do want to leave her secure in the event of my death, but don't want to assign a number right now .
A good lawyer can help you there. You must come up with a number or percent that leaves her secure but still lets you take care of your children. There's simply no way around it. Once a number is reached, you could purchase a life insurance policy for that amount and name her the sole beneficiary. That puts her security completely aside from all other finances, you just have to keep paying the premiums. Then you can deal with the rest of your estate.

Alternatively, you could come up with a number that leaves your children secure. Then you could purchase life insurance in that amount with your children as beneficiaries. Then leave your estate to your new wife.

Why not right now? What's your hesitance? Are you just overwhelmed by numbers and alternatives? Or are you worried that once you make your decision, she'll be unhappy with it and leave?

If the former, get a good lawyer. If the latter, get a good counselor before you go ahead with the marriage. Maybe one or both of you doesn't really want to be married and the financial aspects are just an excuse?
Last edited by JoeRetire on Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

JoeRetire
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by JoeRetire » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:38 am

denovo wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:29 am
She wants to take all your assets and leave nothing to your children. If you are ok with this get married. If not, do not get married. Those are your only options.
Those are not the only options. A good lawyer could suggest many others.

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Kitty Telltales
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Kitty Telltales » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:12 am

Speaking as a second wife who rolled all of the equity from my former home into our jointly owned home. I think your fiancee is being very forthcoming with her views and that's a good sign for your relationship. My husband now pays for most and physically does most of the maintenance of our home and hopefully we will enjoy it together until our last days. In the end, if someone wanted to do the accounting to see if either of us invested more, I believe they would find it to be 50/50 or better 100%/100%.

Also, remember that time flies by and children do grow up and should fly from the nest. You should plan for the care of each other first.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:13 am

OP, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but how long have you been a single father? Been there myself. Four years raising two girls, both under age 10, so I know how hard and lonely it can be. You get to the point where you're almost desperate to find a woman who will relieve the loneliness and become the mother the kids need. Is this that woman?

No she's not! She might relieve your loneliness, but she's not the mother your kids need. I can see from your posts that she already resents them, and to have her as an unwilling substitute mother will not be good for the kids.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:20 am

Kitty Telltales wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:12 am
Also, remember that time flies by and children do grow up and should fly from the nest. You should plan for the care of each other first.
Disagree. The children are stuck in whatever situation the adults put them with no way out except (maybe) the mother. And we don't even know if that's a realistic option. The adults voluntarily choose their situation and can choose to end it if it doesn't work out.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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DanMahowny
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by DanMahowny » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:35 am

This thread reminds me of the dude that wanted to buy all the FANG stocks.

Some people are just determined to make poor decisions. It's a habit.

I study these people. They are my mentors; or anti-mentors, I guess.

It's far easier to win at life when much of your competition is doing stupid stuff.
Funding secured

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N1CKV
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by N1CKV » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:41 am

I will highly recommend reading the book "Beyond the Grave" to explore various legacy scenarios and possibilities. It would certainly be part of your due diligence in preparation for meeting with your attorney. I am currently reading this book and am 1/4 of the way through and I believe it will shed a lot of light on topics you are concerned about.

On a personal note: I would not be getting married in this case. If she wants to live in different house then fine, you buy it and she can be your roommate and pay agreed upon rent to you, her landlord. Make sure to draft a proper lease agreement and receive payments accordingly. She just so happens to be (presumably) sleeping with her landlord also.

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Pretzel lover
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Pretzel lover » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:00 am

I've never understood relationships that weren't "all-in". Shouldn't matter who makes more money unless someone is intentionally under-employed.

A marriage should be a joint effort for the good of the couple (or in this case, the family). Doing "what-if" it doesn't work out is very telling. If the future wife doesn't want your kids as a package with you...

This isn't a relationship site but financially things are not good here.

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Tamarind
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Tamarind » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:18 am

Pretzel lover wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:00 am
I've never understood relationships that weren't "all-in". Shouldn't matter who makes more money unless someone is intentionally under-employed.

A marriage should be a joint effort for the good of the couple (or in this case, the family). Doing "what-if" it doesn't work out is very telling. If the future wife doesn't want your kids as a package with you...

This isn't a relationship site but financially things are not good here.
Sometimes people have to think their way round to it. I was a "never marry" and flopped about here contemplating my potential divorce losses (thankfully in anonymity). Eventually I took in the less dramatic advice I was getting (that didn't imply there was something wrong with marriage, or with me for not being sure) , got married, and combined finances. I'm very happy I did.

But I agree this couple needs some more talk, particularly because of the kids.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by chevca » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:25 am

cheese_breath wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:13 am
OP, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but how long have you been a single father? Been there myself. Four years raising two girls, both under age 10, so I know how hard and lonely it can be. You get to the point where you're almost desperate to find a woman who will relieve the loneliness and become the mother the kids need. Is this that woman?

No she's not! She might relieve your loneliness, but she's not the mother your kids need. I can see from your posts that she already resents them, and to have her as an unwilling substitute mother will not be good for the kids.
I was assuming the opposite for the OP. My guess was he was divorced not too long ago and jumping into something too quickly. Tends to go either way there though. Wonder which for the OP?

I've also BTDT as a single father. For me my kids came first though. I would have stayed lonely rather than be with someone my kids didn't love and someone that didn't love my kids. Luckily I found someone that loves my kids and my kids love her. Same for her son and I as well.

Can't imagine going into a marriage/blended family setting thinking, there's me and my kids, my part of the house, and then her and her part of the house... everything is separate. Why marry if that's the case?

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by badProgrammer » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:28 am

Nutmeg wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:20 pm
scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm
Originally had considered a marriage as equals, despite the disparities, but the sig other has made it clear that she has distaste for inheritances due to experience with and perception of siblings not making good use of inheritance (I don't agree with her 100%). I have an entirely different experience - my siblings and I were fortunate enough to have some inheritance, and believe we used it for good cause - getting college educations in professional programs and investing the rest for the long term (meaning even more potential inheritance for my kids)

I digress, but that difference in a opinion lead me to make sure to have a prenup that protected the children's inheritance, mainly by defaulting all property to nonmarital. Needless to say, she did not like that or really understand concept (she's never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage). So this situation is pretty ugly of estate succession dilemma (to top it off I'm pretty young, and really want to defer these decisions for later in life). I do want to leave her secure in the event of my death, but don't want to assign a number right now .
I initially read the first paragraph thinking that if the prospective wife has a distaste for inheritances, she can donate any inheritance she receives in the future to charity ... and then I read the second paragraph (in which you stated that you are therefore protecting your children‘s inheritance) and realized that she has a distaste for your leaving an inheritance to your own children.

It appears that you are being charitable to her in stating that she has never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage. The challenge here is that a prenup must be signed before the wedding to be enforceable, so she is not going to ever have the experience of marriage before she signs it. Similarly, it is not possible to defer many of the decisions until later in life. You can change your will but not your prenup after the wedding (and the prenup might state that you agree to draw up a will with certain provisions that reflect the intent of the prenup).

I am also concerned that a lawyer drew up a generic prenup. Which party did the lawyer represent? You two have different interests, so you each need an attorney to advise you.

I have additional concerns about how she apparently views your children. Please don’t rush into this marriage!
At this point, I'm in this thread for sport because OP seems only marginally engaged (no pun intended).

Though it's not a relationship site, financial decisions do involve emotions and my take on the BH investing philosophy is to attempt to understand one's biases and emotions and to make investing decisions that are likely to be wise despite momentary or passing emotions.

OP did not mention the ages of his two children. I'd argue that it's a different scenario if they are 17 and 15 than if they are 7 and 5.

For me, the most chilling passage is:
scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm
Needless to say, she did not like that or really understand concept (she's never been married so cares very little for legal aspects of marriage).
Which aspect(s) of marriage does wife-to-be care for?

In the U.S., marriage is first and foremost a legal contract...that's why you go to the courthouse to get a marriage license, because one of you - or your heirs - will be back at the court, eventually.

If wife-to-be wants to ignore or downplay the "legal aspects of marriage," I'd take that as a red flag, as others have suggested.

And again the question arises: why get married? If not for the "legal aspects," unless you are deeply religious, why get married? Why expose yourself and children to a lot of downside risk with marginal upside potential since she's already been clear that she wants to contribute only a small percentage to the future success of your children?

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 am

<sound of music> Baroness Schraeder: "That's what boarding schools are for, darling".

and

"Just wait a year or two"

</end sound of music>

....trivia.....if the Von Trapp family went over the alps from Salzburg, they would have landed in Germany. Fortunately, Americans don't know European geography, so the movie worked.
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Pretzel lover
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Pretzel lover » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:40 am

OP, appears that you are doing all the giving in to future wife’s wishes. Moving even though you’d be ok staying in current home, giving in to less than 50% contribution from wife for new home.

She’s the one that wants a new place. But she doesn’t want it large enough for your kids unless you kick in more $?

Make sure that prenup is rock solid

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cherijoh » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:46 am

8foot7 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:42 pm
There are lots of ways for couples to operate financially but personally I can’t imagine not being a 50/50 partner in buying a house, and that’s directed at your fiancé, not you sir.
I'd add the caveat that both partners have similar incomes. If the OP had earned 3x what his fiancé earned then I think something other than 50/50 would have been appropriate. But otherwise your post is spot on.

MiddleOfTheRoad
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by MiddleOfTheRoad » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:46 am

Imagine the outcome if Cinderella’s father posted on Boglehead for advice before re-marrying...

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:53 am

chevca wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:25 am
cheese_breath wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:13 am
OP, I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but how long have you been a single father? Been there myself. Four years raising two girls, both under age 10, so I know how hard and lonely it can be. You get to the point where you're almost desperate to find a woman who will relieve the loneliness and become the mother the kids need. Is this that woman?

No she's not! She might relieve your loneliness, but she's not the mother your kids need. I can see from your posts that she already resents them, and to have her as an unwilling substitute mother will not be good for the kids.
I was assuming the opposite for the OP. My guess was he was divorced not too long ago and jumping into something too quickly. Tends to go either way there though. Wonder which for the OP?...
I'd considered that possibility too, and you may be right.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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scotthew
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by scotthew » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:59 am

Divorced for less than 10 years. So really not that long.

c1over8
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by c1over8 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:25 am

scotthew wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:19 pm
So this situation is pretty ugly of estate succession dilemma (to top it off I'm pretty young, and really want to defer these decisions for later in life). I do want to leave her secure in the event of my death, but don't want to assign a number right now .
As long as the prenup says you don't have to leave her a specific amount/percent/asset and she waives her rights, you are covered from having to leave her anything at your death and you can always choose down the line to provide for her at your death, either outright or in trust.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:31 am

MiddleOfTheRoad wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:46 am
Imagine the outcome if Cinderella’s father posted on Boglehead for advice before re-marrying...
You, sir or madam, own this thread.

OP, rent and live together. Don’t commingle funds. Get counseling. Even in the best of circumstances (I re-married a woman who really wanted to blend a family), stuff happens. Stuff in my case mostly fomented by ex. What’s your ex’s view and nature?
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:48 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:31 am
... Even in the best of circumstances (I re-married a woman who really wanted to blend a family), stuff happens. Stuff in my case mostly fomented by ex. What’s your ex’s view and nature?
Don't forget about grandparent problems.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by getthatmarshmallow » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:54 am

To take this in a slightly different direction, OP: are you two in agreement over the cost of the new house? Because while everyone's pointing out red flags, I'm wondering if there's another explanation: judging from the cost, the proposed new house is a significant lifestyle upgrade and affordable only with your equity; and you're pointing out (presumably to her) that while your networth is much larger she has more disposable income because she doesn't have kids, which sounds to me like an unwitting (and I assume unintentional!) attempt to justify the expense by insisting she can afford it. And then all the rest of the weirdness looks like a way to compromise to keep the house in line with her mental budget (rather than evil stepmother shenanigans.)

A prenup, counseling, and deferring the house decision until you're on the same page seems wise here, but without hearing her side I'm loathe to assume you shouldn't get married. Maybe on a Bizarro-World Bogleheads she's asking for advice on what to do with a house purchase where he wants to split everything 50/50 but it's way beyond what her networth can handle, but he keeps insisting it's fair because she doesn't have child support.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:59 am

How old are the kids?

If they're twins and are 16 going on 17, you only have a year or 2 of boarding school, then off to college. That makes a small house practical. If they're more like 9, then there's summers and vacations where they'd clog up your house.

(I'm taking her view here as devil's advocate)
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scotthew
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by scotthew » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:33 am

Not married yet. Have spent a VERY long time coming up with mutual agreeable prenup for marriage, and I won't marry until I'm comfortable with that the kids are protected.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by chevca » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:37 am

scotthew wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:33 am
Have spent a VERY long time coming up with mutual agreeable prenup for marriage
That might be a sign. If it's this much work now,.....

Maybe it's just me, but if it's that difficult to be mutually agreeable before even married, it's not likely to just get better all of a sudden.

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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:38 am

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:59 am
How old are the kids?

If they're twins and are 16 going on 17, you only have a year or 2 of boarding school, then off to college...
Right, chuck the kids off to boarding school. I guess that answers the "what if it's a choice between the wife or the kids" question.

But more seriously, the age of the kids is important. I'm assuming older kids whose personalities are already formed, while they might not like it, would be better able to survive a tumultuous environment where the parents values are constantly clashing than younger children still in their formative years.
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by HueyLD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:53 am

Kitty Telltales wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:12 am
Speaking as a second wife who rolled all of the equity from my former home into our jointly owned home. I think your fiancee is being very forthcoming with her views and that's a good sign for your relationship. My husband now pays for most and physically does most of the maintenance of our home and hopefully we will enjoy it together until our last days. In the end, if someone wanted to do the accounting to see if either of us invested more, I believe they would find it to be 50/50 or better 100%/100%.

Also, remember that time flies by and children do grow up and should fly from the nest. You should plan for the care of each other first.
+1.

I think she is being honest with the OP and that's a good thing.

In this culture, the woman of the house tends to be the care taker and manager of the household. Step into her shoes and think for her. She will be doing a lot of work taking care of "someone else's" children. And there is no guarantee that they will love her back. She is the one who needs more protection from the OP and his children. Hope she has a good lawyer for the prenup.

It is a harsh reality, but someone else's kids are not the same as your own kids for most people.

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scotthew
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by scotthew » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:04 am

I would say that gender role is not accurate at all in our case - I'm 100% responsible for transporting the kids, cooking for them, etc. She has a minor supporting role with the kids - and will step in occasionally, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Ditto with the current house.

veindoc
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by veindoc » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:16 am

How old are the kids? Do you have full custody or shared?

I would leave the kids out of the house.
Buy a home you both love. Put down equal down payments and share expenses 50/50. If you divorce split 50/50. If you die, she gets it all.

Set aside cash/stocks for the kids inheritances in an amount you think is fair.

Think about it. If you die, you really want your wife and your children to work out selling home and splitting proceeds, especially if they are not close. Maybe less of a situation in case of divorce but if she wants to stay in the house, how will you get your and kids interest out of it.

Also what happens if your kid throws a ball Into a large window? Or drops a hairdryer onto the bathroom sink and cracks the sink. Are you on the hook for that expense because it’s your kid or will you divide it up by thirds? If you split all expenses by half regardless then it leads to less arguments down the line. You can provide for your kids in other ways without ensnaring them into a house in case of a contentious divorce or untimely death.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:44 am

HueyLD wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:53 am
Kitty Telltales wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:12 am
Speaking as a second wife who rolled all of the equity from my former home into our jointly owned home. I think your fiancee is being very forthcoming with her views and that's a good sign for your relationship. My husband now pays for most and physically does most of the maintenance of our home and hopefully we will enjoy it together until our last days. In the end, if someone wanted to do the accounting to see if either of us invested more, I believe they would find it to be 50/50 or better 100%/100%.

Also, remember that time flies by and children do grow up and should fly from the nest. You should plan for the care of each other first.
+1.

... I think she is being honest with the OP and that's a good thing....
I think it's a good thing too, but it doesn't mean it's a good sign for their relationship. In this case it's a good sign that their values are be so different that marriage might be a big mistake. Not making any judgements concerning whose values are better or worse. They're just different. Better to find out now than for her to hold her tongue until after they're married.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:48 am

chevca wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:37 am
scotthew wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:33 am
Have spent a VERY long time coming up with mutual agreeable prenup for marriage
That might be a sign. If it's this much work now,.....

Maybe it's just me, but if it's that difficult to be mutually agreeable before even married, it's not likely to just get better all of a sudden.
+1

The prenup isn't the problem. It's only a symptom of the problem.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

keepingitsimple
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by keepingitsimple » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:50 am

scotthew wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:04 am
I would say that gender role is not accurate at all in our case - I'm 100% responsible for transporting the kids, cooking for them, etc. She has a minor supporting role with the kids - and will step in occasionally, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Ditto with the current house.
Perhaps the question to ask yourself is whether or not the stumbling blocks encountered in reaching a financial agreement regarding the new home and pre-nup are symptomatic of larger issues? The answer to this question will likely answer all others.

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celia
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by celia » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:53 am

Sounds like she is the occassional babysitter rather than willing to be a full part of the family. It will be hard to be equals in this situation when you already have assets, known "expenses" and a part-time "job" that she probably resents.

How do the two of you already resolve conflicts other than this one?

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MnyGrl
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by MnyGrl » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:59 am

You have received a lot of good advice.

The current thinking regarding remarriage is that your spouse should not be expected to love your kids, but should play the role of aunt or uncle--friendly, supportive, not overly disciplinary. Is she kind and respectful to your kids? If you are planning to have additional kids with her, will she treat the two sets of kids differently? Given her current tendency not to contribute to your family life, it's very likely, and that's awful to contemplate.

My main concern is less financial than for the welfare of your kids. I recommend reading the book "Stepcoupling" (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/06098 ... UTF8&psc=1) for a very frank look at the issues that blending families typically face. Second marriages are typically more difficult and stressful than first ones, for many reasons! I am divorced as well, but this book saved me from embarking on what would have been a few disastrous remarriages.

I have two kids, but don't plan to remarry until they are college-age. I love dating, but remarriage seems to involve too many sacrifices for my kids. I also have chosen not to date people without kids long-term, as I haven't found any who really understand what it is like to be a parent and where my priorities have to lie. Not that they don't exist, of course.
Last edited by MnyGrl on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:03 pm

This is possibly a bad analogy, but regarding difficulties agreeing terms of prenup:

My wife and I were hiring managers for hundreds, probably thousands, of employee and consultant hires. We noticed that whatever frictions occurred during early negotiations were “as good as it ever got.” A lesson learned the hard way, but thankfully with lower stakes than marriage and blending a family.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

chevca
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by chevca » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:04 pm

scotthew wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:04 am
I would say that gender role is not accurate at all in our case - I'm 100% responsible for transporting the kids, cooking for them, etc. She has a minor supporting role with the kids - and will step in occasionally, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Ditto with the current house.
I have to ask again then, why do you want to marry this lady? I'm serious... what are you gaining from this marriage/partnership? Just as important.. what are your kids gaining?

To keep this productive, I think you may need to share what it is making you want to get married. Everything you're posting is making just about everyone say, NO!

I don't mean offense by this and it's only an assumption, but this seems like it must be a trophy wife situation.

jminv
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by jminv » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:07 pm

scotthew wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:04 am
I would say that gender role is not accurate at all in our case - I'm 100% responsible for transporting the kids, cooking for them, etc. She has a minor supporting role with the kids - and will step in occasionally, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Ditto with the current house.
That's interesting. I'm not surprised then that she doesn't want to pay for any portion of a house that the kids occupy or let you leave them any money. Although she uses what could sound like a reasonable argument for the latter since she says she has experience with that ruining kids. I doubt that's the actual reason. You should think about what your kids/friends/family think of her. That might help you some.

You said later on in the thread that you have spent a very long time finding a prenup solution that is mutually agreeable. Not whether to do a prenup. It sounds like what you are really doing is negotiating your future asset split already. Why don't you try floating buying an insurance policy that pays her alone and see her what response is vis a vis leaving your current assets to your kids. If this doesn't change things, I'd consider that another red flag.

Why don't you see what she says if you suggest getting rid of current place and instead of buying, rent. You could even do the split on the rent. If she's vehemently against that, that might be another clue.

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scotthew
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by scotthew » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:21 pm

Financially, I gain the following:
* With her extra income, I afford to buy into a neighborhood with better schools if that is more important in the future. This also leaves potential for buying a second winter home in retirment
* I could inherit her 401(k) if I outlive her, although that's not very important to me since I already have a solid nest egg and retirement contributions

I will admit, if I had no pressure, I would wait until the kids were out of the house to marry, as I don't have that much to financially gain from it other than the potential for moving to a 'better' neighborhood. We do enjoy time together, so I'm trying to find the middle ground to make her happy.

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HueyLD
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by HueyLD » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:25 pm

I guess it is the "commit or breakup" moment. I guess you will have to do what's best for you and your kids.

Good luck. She is a tough lady.

lostinjersey
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by lostinjersey » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:29 pm

So you want to get married so your kids can go to a better school than if you stayed single? Does your fiancee know this?

Unless you are in the hood, I'm guessing your kids would prefer the crummier school to life with a stepmom who doesn't want them around. Trust me, they will know they are not wanted.

Please rethink this, I beg you. Your kids' childhood is more than the school they go to.

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Mlm
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Re: Joint Ownership of home with second wife

Post by Mlm » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:32 pm

OK, I have to chime in because I was the younger, childless female who married an older divorcee with two small children. In your situation I believe that a prenup is a must.

If you have common goals and expectations for the marriage the rest should be pretty effortless. She really needs to be up to the task of being of being a step-mother which will take a lot of her time, patience and maybe some financial sacrifice.

So, spend some time talking about the goals you share and don't share. The financial goals are only a part of the entire picture. Premarital counseling may be a good place to start because you are both mature and bring prior experiences to the relationship. Don't be pressured into anything.

Communication, communication, communication

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