Why visa

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
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JGoneRiding
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Why visa

Post by JGoneRiding »

So I know people sometimes get going on the evils of visa cards. But today is why I a) use them in the first place b) use the same card for all online purchased

I had placed on order with a company that as recently as Friday was soliciting orders for later delivery. Monday they shut their doors and sent notices out via text. (I didn't get mine till yest)

Called chase all charges will be reversed or at least credited to my acct. They have had a bunch of calls apparently. I use them always so if I need to cancel a card only one is compromised.

Just thought real life story was helpful.

My friend bought some stuff through her bank card. They aren't helping her she is out the money as of now.

Why do you or do you not use credit cards?
mptfan
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Re: Why visa

Post by mptfan »

JGoneRiding wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:48 pm My friend bought some stuff through her bank card. They aren't helping her she is out the money as of now.
I assume when you say bank card, you are referring to a debit card? Credit cards are usually bank cards too.
jebmke
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Re: Why visa

Post by jebmke »

We use credit cards for almost everything. It makes cash flow planning easier.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Why visa

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

Maybe you saw people arguing against credit cards on another forum. Around here the big threads are on how fast you can sign up for how many to get points and rewards.

But yes, it is handy to have some protection against the kind of vendor failure you mention. Glad it is working out for you.
mhalley
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Re: Why visa

Post by mhalley »

Used responsibly, cc are a great convenience. They improve your credit score, which could help from everything from getting a job, lowering insurance rates, renting an apartment, maintaining a security clearance, etc. cashback or points or airline miles can save you a fair amoint of money. They also have much greater consumer protections than a debit card.
I am so anti debit card that I made my bank change my card from a debit card to an atm card. (Can only he’s used to get money, not to buy “stuff”.)
Clark Howard rails against debit cards all the time.
There is a subset of people that can’t use a cc responsibly. Dave Ramsey assumes everyone is like that, so he rails agains cc.
If you do have problems utilizing a cc without abusing it, one of the services that pays the cc bill the moment you use it could be an option.
Debitize has such a service, no personal experience.

https://debitize.com/faq.php
dbr
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Re: Why visa

Post by dbr »

Debit cards have all sorts of real hazards that the holder of the card can't prevent. Credit cards have hazards that are under control of the card holder. Many money management advisors are apparently correct that a lot of people can't manage that control and/or are in tough situations. I don't think we should be so unsympathetic to people railing against credit cards for some people. Of course, if the message is that it is all someone else's fault and not one's own, that is not so good.

But again, for financially responsible people it isn't even a discussion that credit cards are by far a more useful and effective tool in personal finance than debit cards. That said, as soon as the card holder makes even one payment of interest on balance on the card, they had better have a very serious conversation with the person in the mirror.
criticalmass
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Re: Why visa

Post by criticalmass »

I've found Visa no worse or better than MasterCard or Amex. If there is a problem with stuff purchased, be sure to take it up with the merchant and document all communication in case they aren't helpful.

And no matter what brand is on the card, use credit cards not debit cards. Pick the best rewards structure that works for you. The consumer protections and less hassle factor are much better for credit cards. Pay balance in full by due date.
dbr
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Re: Why visa

Post by dbr »

We should add that the OP is not about VISA but about credit cards in general compared to debit cards. About credit cards one can debate the comparisons among them forever, but between credit and debit the issues are clear, positive and negative.
denovo
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Re: Why visa

Post by denovo »

JGoneRiding wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:48 pm So I know people sometimes get going on the evils of visa cards.

Why do you or do you not use credit cards?
I've never heard anyone target VISA credit cards specifically.

For a large share of the population (perhaps not bogleheads) the idea is that people dont pay off their balance every month and accrue credit card interest.

However, there also studies that suggest that people who use credit cards spend more than if they were using cash.

A combination of the reasons is why Ramsey/Howard try to encourage people to use cash.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Why visa

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

This is a topic that's come up many times before in one form or another. I use credit cards pretty much whenever I can. I don't believe that I spend more money with them, and I have explained why elsewhere.

I also don't believe that the studies say what people think they do. It's just not possible to come to the hard conclusions that are purported. Human behavioral experiments can't be that definitive. There's a reason that double-blind studies are the norm where possible. You can't do that with this sort of investigation.

I like the convenience and the cash-back rewards are nice. With my BOA VISA Preferred Rewards I get 5.25% on gas, 3.5% on grocery, 1.75% other. It's not a huge amount because I just don't spend that much, but it was nice getting a few bucks back on the home/auto/umbrella insurance recently.

I wouldn't use a debit card on a bet. In fact I don't have one. I have a US Bank ATM-only card.
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FIREchief
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Re: Why visa

Post by FIREchief »

Earl Lemongrab wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:46 pm I wouldn't use a debit card on a bet. In fact I don't have one. I have a US Bank ATM-only card.
Another way around this is to just not routinely hold any excess cash in your checking account. If you only have a couple thousand dollars, in a worst case scenario it's not like your life savings are at risk.

Isn't an ATM card the equivalent of a debit card? Or, does it only allow ATM withdrawals (subject, I assume, to small daily maximums) versus credit-card-like purchases? I may have to look into this, as I absolutely refuse to ever use my bank card as a debit card.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
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Alexa9
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Re: Why visa

Post by Alexa9 »

I rank payments:
1. Visa: best perks = Chase Sapphire Reserve > AMEX Platinum
2. Mastercard: very close to Visa, practically identical, may have slightly fewer perks
3. AMEX: less accepted, good rewards
4. Discover: least accepted at Mom and Pops, decent rewards, easy to obtain as first card
5. Debit: less protection
6. Check: who uses these anymore?
7. Cash: good luck getting mugged and carrying around all those bills and coins
8. Bitcoin and other crypto currencies: just lol
scrabbler1
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Re: Why visa

Post by scrabbler1 »

I have a second CC as a back-up card but I don't carry it around with me. I keep it at home in case something happens to my main CC, such as losing my wallet or it gets stolen. This means I will use my debit card as a back-up to my main CC in case there is a problem with the CC itself or the vendor can't process the transaction with the CC. This has never happened BTW, and the last time I actually used the debit card other than at an ATM was about 10 years ago.
mptfan
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Re: Why visa

Post by mptfan »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm Isn't an ATM card the equivalent of a debit card?
No, it's not. An ATM card can only be used to withdraw money from an ATM machine, it cannot be used to make purchases.
Horsefly
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Re: Why visa

Post by Horsefly »

As others have said, I'm not at all against using Visa Credit cards. I actually have five of them (there is a reason, but it's a long explanation). I don't use cash unless it is something small, and the only checks we write any more are mostly the ones my wife writes to nieces and nephews for birthdays.
JGoneRiding wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:48 pm I had placed on order with a company that as recently as Friday was soliciting orders for later delivery. Monday they shut their doors and sent notices out via text. (I didn't get mine till yest)
I know it is off-topic, but I'm really curious: What company was it that shuttered on Monday?
Horsefly
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Re: Why visa

Post by Horsefly »

mptfan wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:34 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm Isn't an ATM card the equivalent of a debit card?
No, it's not. An ATM card can only be used to withdraw money from an ATM machine, it cannot be used to make purchases.
I think it is pretty hard anymore to find an ATM card that isn't a Visa or Mastercard debit card. The banks and credit unions are highly motivated to get people to use their cards like credit cards, and sadly, many people do.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Why visa

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

FIREchief wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:46 pm I wouldn't use a debit card on a bet. In fact I don't have one. I have a US Bank ATM-only card.
Another way around this is to just not routinely hold any excess cash in your checking account. If you only have a couple thousand dollars, in a worst case scenario it's not like your life savings are at risk.
I prefer to have plenty in the account so that I can make payments without concern about there being enough.
Isn't an ATM card the equivalent of a debit card? Or, does it only allow ATM withdrawals (subject, I assume, to small daily maximums) versus credit-card-like purchases? I may have to look into this, as I absolutely refuse to ever use my bank card as a debit card.
It's not branded as a VISA check card. You have to use the PIN. I don't know if it can be used for point of sale purchases, but it wouldn't be "signature" use.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Why visa

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

Horsefly wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:44 pm I think it is pretty hard anymore to find an ATM card that isn't a Visa or Mastercard debit card. The banks and credit unions are highly motivated to get people to use their cards like credit cards, and sadly, many people do.
It wasn't for me. US Bank sent me debit card. I called and said I wanted ATM only. They downgraded that card and sent a new ATM card a few days later.
new2bogle
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Re: Why visa

Post by new2bogle »

I wonder if by Visa OP means Credit Cards in general, not just Visa branded.

I use credit cards as much as possible and where ever possible. It is the absolute best way to pay for something.
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FIREchief
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Re: Why visa

Post by FIREchief »

Earl Lemongrab wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:49 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:46 pm I wouldn't use a debit card on a bet. In fact I don't have one. I have a US Bank ATM-only card.
Another way around this is to just not routinely hold any excess cash in your checking account. If you only have a couple thousand dollars, in a worst case scenario it's not like your life savings are at risk.
I prefer to have plenty in the account so that I can make payments without concern about there being enough.
Same thing. It's how we define "excess." Some people keep ten of thousands of dollars in their checking accounts.
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.
gotester2000
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Re: Why visa

Post by gotester2000 »

Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
mptfan
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Re: Why visa

Post by mptfan »

Horsefly wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:44 pm
mptfan wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:34 pm
FIREchief wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:12 pm Isn't an ATM card the equivalent of a debit card?
No, it's not. An ATM card can only be used to withdraw money from an ATM machine, it cannot be used to make purchases.
I think it is pretty hard anymore to find an ATM card that isn't a Visa or Mastercard debit card. The banks and credit unions are highly motivated to get people to use their cards like credit cards, and sadly, many people do.
I agree. But in some cases you can set the point of sale limit to 1 cent and effectively disable the debit card feature. For example, I am a Schwab bank customer and I wanted an ATM only card because I do not want my debit card linked to the Visa payment system, so I called Schwab and they were very helpful (their customer service is U.S. based and top notch) and were able to set my POS (point of sale) or daily purchase limit to $.01. Effectively this means that I was able to turn my Visa debit card into an ATM only card because no debit purchase transactions will be approved that are greater than one penny. For clarification, the debit card has two daily limits...a daily cash withdrawal limit, and a daily purchase limit, and Schwab can change them independently.
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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: Why visa

Post by Earl Lemongrab »

gotester2000 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:06 pm Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
Generally speaking, missing a payment for reasons like illness the CC company will usually waive any penalty and perhaps interest. For an estate situation, They'd almost certainly work with the executor assuming that they don't just write if off as not worth the effort.

A safety valve is to set up auto pay for the minimum, or even full amount.
new2bogle
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Re: Why visa

Post by new2bogle »

gotester2000 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:06 pm Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
Same thing can be said for mortgage, auto loans and cable bills.
GoldStar
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Re: Why visa

Post by GoldStar »

new2bogle wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:39 pm
gotester2000 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:06 pm Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
Same thing can be said for mortgage, auto loans and cable bills.
You could put everything (including your credit card) on auto-pay. Every month the bills come in and the money goes out.
If you have a health issue (major accident - in the hospital for 2 months) everything continues to get paid.
Personally - I have everything on auto-pay except my credit card - always like to check it first. But its a joint card with my spouse so if something happens to one of us the other takes over.
Quickfoot
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Re: Why visa

Post by Quickfoot »

You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
Horsefly
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Re: Why visa

Post by Horsefly »

Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
I don't think you are right about the protection just because you run the debit card as credit. If your bank is kind-hearted, they may give you some protection. But the laws that force banks to protect you on a credit card purchase don't apply. See the fool.com article:
https://www.fool.com/investing/general/ ... -card.aspx
criticalmass
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Re: Why visa

Post by criticalmass »

Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
stan1
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Re: Why visa

Post by stan1 »

Credit cards are only evil if you carry a balance and pay interest. Otherwise they offer stronger legal consumer protection than other ways to buy something since a credit card purchase is essentially a loan. A debit card is an electronic check which does not have the same consumer protections required by law that come with a loan.
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mptfan
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Re: Why visa

Post by mptfan »

Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pmYou are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card.
Can you provide a source for this?
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ResearchMed
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Re: Why visa

Post by ResearchMed »

JGoneRiding wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:48 pm So I know people sometimes get going on the evils of visa cards. But today is why I a) use them in the first place b) use the same card for all online purchased

I had placed on order with a company that as recently as Friday was soliciting orders for later delivery. Monday they shut their doors and sent notices out via text. (I didn't get mine till yest)

Called chase all charges will be reversed or at least credited to my acct. They have had a bunch of calls apparently. I use them always so if I need to cancel a card only one is compromised.

Just thought real life story was helpful.

My friend bought some stuff through her bank card. They aren't helping her she is out the money as of now.

Why do you or do you not use credit cards?
What is specifically wrong with "Visa" charge cards that wouldn't be a problem with MasterCard, for example?
(Or others, including American Express, although MasterCard and Visa are typically more similar.)

And what "evils" do you mean?

RM
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ncbill
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Re: Why visa

Post by ncbill »

criticalmass wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:10 am
Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
Bingo.

One-time problem with your debit card you'll likely be made whole within a day or two.

Multiple times?

Then it'll go over to the fraud department for a fuller investigation.

That's all you'll be told as you wait days or weeks for their decision.

Remember how opaque the whole process was on that other thread about someone's dad having an IRA stolen?

Hope you can live without that money for however long it takes.

As a former (reformed?) banker I don't use debit cards.
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midareff
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Re: Why visa

Post by midareff »

Cash back....................
linenfort
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Re: Why visa

Post by linenfort »

VS debit/check cards:
* cash back rewards
* better protection from fraudulent charges

VS cash:
* faster and more convenient at the counter
* can't use cash online
* easy to keep track of charges via statements

The only things I used my debit card for are:
* ATMs
* linking to Apple Pay Cash
NextMil
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Re: Why visa

Post by NextMil »

ncbill wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:17 am
criticalmass wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:10 am
Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
Bingo.

One-time problem with your debit card you'll likely be made whole within a day or two.

Multiple times?

Then it'll go over to the fraud department for a fuller investigation.

That's all you'll be told as you wait days or weeks for their decision.

Remember how opaque the whole process was on that other thread about someone's dad having an IRA stolen?

Hope you can live without that money for however long it takes.

As a former (reformed?) banker I don't use debit cards.
Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
regularguy455
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Re: Why visa

Post by regularguy455 »

The cost of the visa transaction fee is built into prices. If you use cash, you are paying extra (typically 2% more you’d get from a cash back credit card). Ironically this means people who use cash (read: most vulnerable) are subsidizing those who don’t.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Why visa

Post by UpperNwGuy »

I always use my credit card when I can. Debit cards simply don't have the same protections as credit cards. Cash is an annoyance.
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JGoneRiding
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Re: Why visa

Post by JGoneRiding »

Horsefly wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:41 pm As others have said, I'm not at all against using Visa Credit cards. I actually have five of them (there is a reason, but it's a long explanation). I don't use cash unless it is something small, and the only checks we write any more are mostly the ones my wife writes to nieces and nephews for birthdays.
JGoneRiding wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:48 pm I had placed on order with a company that as recently as Friday was soliciting orders for later delivery. Monday they shut their doors and sent notices out via text. (I didn't get mine till yest)
I know it is off-topic, but I'm really curious: What company was it that shuttered on Monday?
Company called Zaycon Fresh. They do large amounts of meet orders for moderate prices. So I had ordered ahead for Oct delivery. When I called chase the lady immediately knew the issue, that had a bunch of calls. Really curious how that pans out. Does chase go after the company in bankruptcy court? I mean obviously there are a lot of banks going to be involved buy ad products tended to be ordered several months out there are a ton of annoyed people. Assuming everyone that DID NOT use a bank card is made whole, it's a good amount??
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JGoneRiding
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Re: Why visa

Post by JGoneRiding »

criticalmass wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:10 am
Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
Exactly . I called up the said oh yeah we knew about them, please hold for the fraud dept. Nice lady asked a few questions and said ok that should show as a credit in 1 to 3 days.

My friends bank essentially laughed at her and offered no help.

To be clear these were legit charges we authorized. The company is now closing and failing to deliver. Visa etc is refunding without issue. I assume they will go after the company in Any way they can. I could see it boarding on theft.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Why visa

Post by lazydavid »

gotester2000 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:06 pm Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
You'd really advocate against using a tool as powerful and convenient as a credit card due to the chance an event that would most likely happen once at most in a person's lifetime, and likely cost less than $100? I hate paying interest as much as the next boglehead, but sometimes the sheer gravity of the obsession against it makes me :oops:
User avatar
ResearchMed
Posts: 16795
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: Why visa

Post by ResearchMed »

lazydavid wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:15 pm
gotester2000 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:06 pm Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
You'd really advocate against using a tool as powerful and convenient as a credit card due to the chance an event that would most likely happen once at most in a person's lifetime, and likely cost less than $100? I hate paying interest as much as the next boglehead, but sometimes the sheer gravity of the obsession against it makes me :oops:
Exactly.

To gotester2000 - The heirs don't have to pay the debs of the person who died. They might inherit less, if *that* is your concern...??
It's up to the executor to straighten these things out in a timely fashion, hopefully preserving your inheritance! :shock:

And if someone is critically ill and unable to get to bills promptly (or it takes time for someone else to help with them), the interest isn't going to be outrageous for a relatively short term, and the credit card company(s) may well forgive the interest or at least penalties upon proof of catastrophic health event.

Even if someone "can't pay temporarily" and it is *not* due to a health emergency, some lenders will forgive some fees IF you work with them in a timely fashion. (They want to be repaid. Forcing someone into bankruptcy while they owe you money? Not the best strategy, if they are trying to repay...)

There are SO many other problems in life that are far more likely to occur.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Why visa

Post by criticalmass »

NextMil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 am

Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
Better read that fine print in your cited webpage. Visa (and most issuing banks) offer both debit cards AND credit cards, so when you say "propaganda that credit card companies have peddled" refers to debit card companies too.

"Visa's Zero Liability policy does not apply to certain commercial card and anonymous prepaid card transactions or transactions not processed by Visa. Cardholders must use care in protecting their card and notify their issuing financial institution immediately of any unauthorized use and for additional details."

Also note that the so-called Zero Liability policy also has limitations on how many times they will make whole a card holder with fraudulent transactions. And that assumes that the issuer agrees the transactions are fraud. There are plenty of examples where they did not (especially with transactions made in a second country).

I do not believe that the Fair Credit Billing Act (15 U.S.C. § 1601 et al) is "propaganda" from credit card companies, especially because it places them on the hook for most/all fraud. And even though I have never been hit by a drunk driver, I wouldn't consider myself to immune from drunk drivers near me, anymore than I believe I am immune from payment card fraud.
gotester2000
Posts: 620
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:59 am

Re: Why visa

Post by gotester2000 »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:37 pm
lazydavid wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:15 pm
gotester2000 wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:06 pm Credit cards are a good tool if paying balance in full,but what happens if -
1. Person has money in bank to pay in full but could not pay on time due to health/other issues.
2. Person has money in bank to pay in full but dies and heirs dont know about the cc debt and it compounds.
You'd really advocate against using a tool as powerful and convenient as a credit card due to the chance an event that would most likely happen once at most in a person's lifetime, and likely cost less than $100? I hate paying interest as much as the next boglehead, but sometimes the sheer gravity of the obsession against it makes me :oops:
Exactly.

To gotester2000 - The heirs don't have to pay the debs of the person who died. They might inherit less, if *that* is your concern...??
It's up to the executor to straighten these things out in a timely fashion, hopefully preserving your inheritance! :shock:

And if someone is critically ill and unable to get to bills promptly (or it takes time for someone else to help with them), the interest isn't going to be outrageous for a relatively short term, and the credit card company(s) may well forgive the interest or at least penalties upon proof of catastrophic health event.

Even if someone "can't pay temporarily" and it is *not* due to a health emergency, some lenders will forgive some fees IF you work with them in a timely fashion. (They want to be repaid. Forcing someone into bankruptcy while they owe you money? Not the best strategy, if they are trying to repay...)

There are SO many other problems in life that are far more likely to occur.

RM
My question was about how the bank treats these type of defaults - not against CC usage.
mikefixac
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:00 pm

Re: Why visa

Post by mikefixac »

A simple analogy I always liked:

Credit cards are like fire, used correctly it warms the home. Incorrectly, it burns the house down.
ncbill
Posts: 2053
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Western NC

Re: Why visa

Post by ncbill »

NextMil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 am
ncbill wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:17 am
criticalmass wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:10 am
Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
Bingo.

One-time problem with your debit card you'll likely be made whole within a day or two.

Multiple times?

Then it'll go over to the fraud department for a fuller investigation.

That's all you'll be told as you wait days or weeks for their decision.

Remember how opaque the whole process was on that other thread about someone's dad having an IRA stolen?

Hope you can live without that money for however long it takes.

As a former (reformed?) banker I don't use debit cards.
Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
Your link is to VISA's policy, which is voluntary, as opposed to the law that governs credit cards.

Please note: "Certain restrictions, limitations, and exclusions apply and benefit configuration may vary."

Like it or not, you'll be waiting on that particular bank's (not VISA's) decision by their fraud department as to when (& whether) your funds will be restored if there are multiple fraudulent transactions within a short period.
NextMil
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Why visa

Post by NextMil »

criticalmass wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:34 pm
NextMil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 am

Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
Better read that fine print in your cited webpage. Visa (and most issuing banks) offer both debit cards AND credit cards, so when you say "propaganda that credit card companies have peddled" refers to debit card companies too.

"Visa's Zero Liability policy does not apply to certain commercial card and anonymous prepaid card transactions or transactions not processed by Visa. Cardholders must use care in protecting their card and notify their issuing financial institution immediately of any unauthorized use and for additional details."

Also note that the so-called Zero Liability policy also has limitations on how many times they will make whole a card holder with fraudulent transactions. And that assumes that the issuer agrees the transactions are fraud. There are plenty of examples where they did not (especially with transactions made in a second country).

I do not believe that the Fair Credit Billing Act (15 U.S.C. § 1601 et al) is "propaganda" from credit card companies, especially because it places them on the hook for most/all fraud. And even though I have never been hit by a drunk driver, I wouldn't consider myself to immune from drunk drivers near me, anymore than I believe I am immune from payment card fraud.
That is my point its the same coverage - and there are limitations on both, but they are virtually identical.

Do you use a commercial or prepaid card? I certainly do not. I suspect that its also the same deal with credit cards as it is with debit cards. If you are negligent in use of the card that results in fraud, yeah they probably won't cover it indefinitely. That is a no brainer.

I am not sure why you are citing 15 U.S.C. § 1601 et al as there are clear limitations on that as well including limitations on reporting etc, and you clearly have to monitor closely, and one could argue that ease of use for credit cards would behaviorally limit one's oversight over charges vs a debit card where you have to use good accounting practices.
NextMil
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Why visa

Post by NextMil »

ncbill wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:57 am
NextMil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 am
ncbill wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:17 am
criticalmass wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:10 am
Quickfoot wrote: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:14 pm You don't need to use credit cards to get the Visa protection, just run your debit card as credit. That causes the transaction to go through the credit network and you get all the Visa fraud protections (which you do NOT get on debit card transactions). If someone steals your debit number and runs it as credit you get Visa's protection. You are still out the cash temporarily if there's fraud but most banks give you an immediate provisional credit of the disputed amount so it's effectively the same as a credit card. If you have a bank that does NOT issue provisional credits for fraud dump them immediately and go to one that does or a credit union.

That said we primarily use credit cards too just because we have good reward cards and benefit from using them instead of debit cards (we don't carry balances). I usually have 3-4 cases of fraud per year and go through a few debit / credit cards.
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
Bingo.

One-time problem with your debit card you'll likely be made whole within a day or two.

Multiple times?

Then it'll go over to the fraud department for a fuller investigation.

That's all you'll be told as you wait days or weeks for their decision.

Remember how opaque the whole process was on that other thread about someone's dad having an IRA stolen?

Hope you can live without that money for however long it takes.

As a former (reformed?) banker I don't use debit cards.
Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
Your link is to VISA's policy, which is voluntary, as opposed to the law that governs credit cards.

Please note: "Certain restrictions, limitations, and exclusions apply and benefit configuration may vary."

Like it or not, you'll be waiting on that particular bank's (not VISA's) decision by their fraud department as to when (& whether) your funds will be restored if there are multiple fraudulent transactions within a short period.
Electronic Fund's Transfer Act of 1978 covers you which is in Reg E. Of course you will be dealing with the financial institution, but there are laws in place that are pretty darn similar to the credit cards. The argument that credit cards have better coverage is just plain silly if you dig into the regs.
ncbill
Posts: 2053
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Western NC

Re: Why visa

Post by ncbill »

NextMil wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:10 am
ncbill wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:57 am
NextMil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 am
ncbill wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:17 am
criticalmass wrote: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:10 am
It's true that Visa (and master card etc) does offer a fraud protection guarantee, but better read that fine print. It has many limitations including how many times a year you claim fraud. Business account, or pass through account? That protection guarantee goes poof. You're stuck with debit legal protections which are inferior to credit protections.

In addition, while you are haggling about protections, your money is still gone, and your mortgage payments and other transactions have bounced. Now you have to deal with even more hassle and third party nsf/late fees.

The credit card fraud victim merely has to write. No money is lost while the investigation occurs, and losses are limited even if the Visa MasterCard guarantee is ignored.
Bingo.

One-time problem with your debit card you'll likely be made whole within a day or two.

Multiple times?

Then it'll go over to the fraud department for a fuller investigation.

That's all you'll be told as you wait days or weeks for their decision.

Remember how opaque the whole process was on that other thread about someone's dad having an IRA stolen?

Hope you can live without that money for however long it takes.

As a former (reformed?) banker I don't use debit cards.
Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
Your link is to VISA's policy, which is voluntary, as opposed to the law that governs credit cards.

Please note: "Certain restrictions, limitations, and exclusions apply and benefit configuration may vary."

Like it or not, you'll be waiting on that particular bank's (not VISA's) decision by their fraud department as to when (& whether) your funds will be restored if there are multiple fraudulent transactions within a short period.
Electronic Fund's Transfer Act of 1978 covers you which is in Reg E. Of course you will be dealing with the financial institution, but there are laws in place that are pretty darn similar to the credit cards. The argument that credit cards have better coverage is just plain silly if you dig into the regs.
Debit card rules are primarily concerned with how quickly the debit cardholder has to notify the bank in order for the cardholder to limit the cardholder's losses:

"up to $50 if you notify the bank within two business days after you realize the card is missing
up to $500 if you fail to notify the bank within two business days after you realize the card is missing, but do notify the bank within 60 days after your bank statement is mailed to you listing the unauthorized withdrawals, or
unlimited if you fail to notify the bank within 60 days after your bank statement is mailed to you listing the unauthorized withdrawals."

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... 29654.html

But, again, there are NO time limits on how long the bank (or other financial institution) has to conduct their investigation.

Note that with a credit card you're on the hook for no more than $50, plus you're not waiting weeks or months to get your own money back.

Debit cards are convenient for merchants (lower fees) & banks, not so much the cardholder (far better legal protections for the latter with credit cards)
NextMil
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Why visa

Post by NextMil »

Yeah thats what I pointed out already, but most banks have capped what you are on the hook for at $50 or zero. The higher amounts are just the regs. Banks also want to keep customers so they are not going to hose you, such as in my cases where they restored funds basically immediately, and reissued a card with new numbers and overnight delivery.

Debit cards also have built in daily spending limits which provides additional protection, and the visa fraud detection has algorithms to check unusual activity. I have received phone calls every once in a while asking if my spending was authorized - meaning they are monitoring pretty rigorously.

Unless you are living on the edge and do not have a few extra thousand sitting in your checking account I have not seen a single credible argument on why credit cards offer better protection.
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Why visa

Post by criticalmass »

NextMil wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:04 am
criticalmass wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:34 pm
NextMil wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 am

Its right here. https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/debit-cards.html I love the propaganda that credit card companies have peddled so long that people take it as fact.

I have had fraudulent bank transactions three times in my lifetime, and never ran into a problem. Most of the time the money is back in the account within hours of reporting.
Better read that fine print in your cited webpage. Visa (and most issuing banks) offer both debit cards AND credit cards, so when you say "propaganda that credit card companies have peddled" refers to debit card companies too.

"Visa's Zero Liability policy does not apply to certain commercial card and anonymous prepaid card transactions or transactions not processed by Visa. Cardholders must use care in protecting their card and notify their issuing financial institution immediately of any unauthorized use and for additional details."

Also note that the so-called Zero Liability policy also has limitations on how many times they will make whole a card holder with fraudulent transactions. And that assumes that the issuer agrees the transactions are fraud. There are plenty of examples where they did not (especially with transactions made in a second country).

I do not believe that the Fair Credit Billing Act (15 U.S.C. § 1601 et al) is "propaganda" from credit card companies, especially because it places them on the hook for most/all fraud. And even though I have never been hit by a drunk driver, I wouldn't consider myself to immune from drunk drivers near me, anymore than I believe I am immune from payment card fraud.
That is my point its the same coverage - and there are limitations on both, but they are virtually identical.

Do you use a commercial or prepaid card? I certainly do not. I suspect that its also the same deal with credit cards as it is with debit cards. If you are negligent in use of the card that results in fraud, yeah they probably won't cover it indefinitely. That is a no brainer.

I am not sure why you are citing 15 U.S.C. § 1601 et al as there are clear limitations on that as well including limitations on reporting etc, and you clearly have to monitor closely, and one could argue that ease of use for credit cards would behaviorally limit one's oversight over charges vs a debit card where you have to use good accounting practices.
The protections afforded to Debit Cards and Credit Cards are not similar at all. Here is why:

Credit Cards are protected with the Truth in Lending Act, the Fair Credit Billing Act , and Regulation Z which implements both Acts. These were created after credit cards were already being used at the point of sale, with actual issues being addressed.
Credit card users enjoy two separate protections under regulation Z:

Credit Card Consumer Protection 1.) 12 C.F.R. §1026.13(a) Must investigate and resolve billing errors, including goods or services that the consumer did not accept or was not delivered or was not delivered as agreed. Consumer initiates with a written notice within 60 days AFTER the statement

Official Regulation Z billing error examples:
  • the appearance on a periodic statement of a purchase when the consumer refused to take delivery of the goods because the goods did not comply with the contract;
    delivery of property or services different from that agreed upon;
    delivery of the wrong quantity;
    late delivery; or
    delivery to the wrong location.
Credit Card Consumer Protection 2.) 12 CFR §1026.12(c) Consumer can use any defense and claims for transactions over $50, except torts if the cardholder attempted to resolve dispute in good faith and occurred in same state as billing address OR within 100 miles of same.

Now, let's look at Debit Cards:

Debit Card transactions are covered by only the Electronic Fund Transfer Act, which is implemented by Fed Regulation E. Debit Card Issuers only have obligations if consumer alleges an error with the fund transfer behind the purchase.

Regulation E does not define "errors" to include the right to dispute a transaction because of a problem with the good or service.
Also, debit card protections rely on a statue and regulation created prior to debit cards used at the point of sale. No provisions specific to purchases made using a debit card are included, because they weren't envisioned when the protections were written.

Finally, if you have an issue with a credit card, you can dispute and you're money is in your account while the investigation goes on. With a Debit card, the money is already gone from your account. Now you have to fight to get it back at some future point, if the debit dispute is successful. Meanwhile, your other transactions are bouncing due to the debit fraud, causing more hassle, more fees, more time spent to unscrew all of the issues related to money missing from your bank account.

Real life credit example: I had several large purchases made fraudulently after a trip. I called the credit card company, then followed up in writing a few days later. They investigated, and I was never charged. No money left my account. Total time spent: About 5-10 minutes to call and a send secure message.

Real life debit example: My next door neighbor was overcharged by a jeweler several thousand dollars while visiting the middle east. Additional fraudulent charges appeared on their bank account, which was eventually shut down by the bank. They didn't realize this until they were home. Meanwhile, their mortgage, real estate tax, and car payment subsequently bounced. All charged late fees + non sufficient fees, the worst of all was the real estate tax. Once they realized what was going on, they contacted their bank and disputed the fraudulent transactions. After 18 days, the bank returned the money for the charges, except for the jeweler. The chargeback to the jeweler was appealed and eventually denied. The bank did work with the mortgage company and car loan to get the NSF fees removed. They ended up only have to pay a late fee for the car payment and the 10% late fee for the real estate tax bill. All of this took weeks/months to resolve, and countless hour calling, waiting on hold, writing certified mail letters, explaining the situation again, etc.

You really think debit card protections are "virtually identical" to the superior protections provided by Regulation Z? The Consumer Regulations folks in the Federal Reserve disagree with you. Good luck and be careful out there.
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