Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

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nguy44
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Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by nguy44 »

When dad and mom passed away, their house was inherited by one of my sisters (this was not an an issue in the family, it is a long story but we all agreed and were happy for her to have the house). Many years later, sister has gotten married, and she and brother-in-law are selling this house. They have hearts of gold and want to split the sales proceeds along all of us siblings. It is always a fun argument when people complain that they should *not* be getting something. But we reached an agreement, and sister and brother-in-law will be giving each of her siblings (there are six) $50K. The question becomes, what is the best way for them to give us the money to avoid gift taxes?

One thought is that sister and brother-in-law would each give a $15K check to us this year, and then each give a $10K check to us in January, since the 15K is currently the maximum one can give in gifts before having to report it to the IRS.

However, it seems that they could give each of us $50K this year. They would still have to file form 709 but not have to actually pay any tax, since the amount is well under the $11.2M lifetime amount that can be given before tax is owed.

Are those two options accurate, or have we missed anything for these, or missed other options?
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ResearchMed
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by ResearchMed »

nguy44 wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:09 am When dad and mom passed away, their house was inherited by one of my sisters (this was not an an issue in the family, it is a long story but we all agreed and were happy for her to have the house). Many years later, sister has gotten married, and she and brother-in-law are selling this house. They have hearts of gold and want to split the sales proceeds along all of us siblings. It is always a fun argument when people complain that they should *not* be getting something. But we reached an agreement, and sister and brother-in-law will be giving each of her siblings (there are six) $50K. The question becomes, what is the best way for them to give us the money to avoid gift taxes?

One thought is that sister and brother-in-law would each give a $15K check to us this year, and then each give a $10K check to us in January, since the 15K is currently the maximum one can give in gifts before having to report it to the IRS.

However, it seems that they could give each of us $50K this year. They would still have to file form 709 but not have to actually pay any tax, since the amount is well under the $11.2M lifetime amount that can be given before tax is owed.

Are those two options accurate, or have we missed anything for these, or missed other options?
Are all of you married?

For those who are, the husband/wife pair can EACH give to EACH of the recipient husband/wife pairs, making the annual limit of $15k x 4 not even met.
Otherwise, they can give $30k to a single recipient this year, and the other $20k the next year.

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Blueskies123
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by Blueskies123 »

No expert here but I found this:

The annual exclusion for 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 is $14,000. For 2018, the annual exclusion is $15,000

Just spread the gift out over a number of years an keep at or less than $15,000. You may need to file a gift tax form, you will have to google it.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by junior »

If you aren't expected to be gifted 11.2 mill, you will owe no federal gift tax at all and the giver won't either so it isn't an issue. As you said it just needs to be disclosed.

For example, if you give your brother $50,000 this year, you’ll use up your $15,000 annual exclusion. The bad news is that you’ll need to file a gift tax return, but the good news is that you probably won’t pay a gift tax. Why? Because the extra $35,000 ($50,000 – $15,000) simply counts against your $11.2 million lifetime exclusion. Next year, if you give your brother another $50,000, the same thing happens: you use up your $15,000 annual exclusion and whittle away another $35,000 of your lifetime exclusion.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/gift-tax-rate/
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by Spirit Rider »

junior wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:30 am If you aren't expected to be gifted 11.2 mill, you will owe no federal gift tax at all and the giver won't either so it isn't an issue. As you said it just needs to be disclosed.
The donee is never subject to gift reporting/tax. It is always the donor.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by dm200 »

I would keep it simple - for many reasons.

Just do $15k each year until it reaches $50l for each.

While gifts could be made to spouses or could be from spouse to speed up the process - I would leave the spouses out of it - again keep it simple.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by ResearchMed »

dm200 wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:01 pm I would keep it simple - for many reasons.

Just do $15k each year until it reaches $50l for each.

While gifts could be made to spouses or could be from spouse to speed up the process - I would leave the spouses out of it - again keep it simple.
If I understand correctly, the "donor" is already a married couple who co-own the property.
So I see no complication with $15k from each of them.
Whether the recipient sibling wants to share with a spouse (if there is a spouse), yes, that's a question.
But even if not, it should just take a second year for the additional $20k to be gifted.

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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by bayview »

junior wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:30 am If you aren't expected to be gifted 11.2 mill, you will owe no federal gift tax at all and the giver won't either so it isn't an issue. As you said it just needs to be disclosed.

For example, if you give your brother $50,000 this year, you’ll use up your $15,000 annual exclusion. The bad news is that you’ll need to file a gift tax return, but the good news is that you probably won’t pay a gift tax. Why? Because the extra $35,000 ($50,000 – $15,000) simply counts against your $11.2 million lifetime exclusion. Next year, if you give your brother another $50,000, the same thing happens: you use up your $15,000 annual exclusion and whittle away another $35,000 of your lifetime exclusion.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/gift-tax-rate/
Exactly. I'm amazed how rarely this is pointed out. And as noted, if you can split the proceeds over more than a year, $15k per donor and per recipient (and spouse if included) still go under the wire.

You do have to fill out Form 709, which I understand can be a bit annoying, especially on an on-going basis, but that allows you to give away as much as you like without paying tax on it. It's just subtracted from the lifetime exclusion. If your sister and brother-in-law think that they may leave an estate valued at approaching $5.6 million each (current figures), it might be a problem. For the vast majority of other families, it probably wouldn't be an issue. Obviously, they would want to run their numbers and make an educated guess, including the possibility of the exclusion dropping in the future.
In addition, if you gift an amount that’s above the annual gift tax exclusion, you can also tap into the lifetime estate and gift tax exemption. The lifetime exemption effectively shelters from tax $5 million, indexed for inflation. The inflation-indexed amount for 2017 is $5.49 million per donor. It increases to $5.6 million for 2018.

However, if you tap into the lifetime gift tax exemption, it erodes the estate tax exemption amount that would be available when you die.
https://www.mlrpc.com/articles/irs-incr ... sion-2018/
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by ResearchMed »

bayview wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:12 pm
junior wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:30 am If you aren't expected to be gifted 11.2 mill, you will owe no federal gift tax at all and the giver won't either so it isn't an issue. As you said it just needs to be disclosed.

For example, if you give your brother $50,000 this year, you’ll use up your $15,000 annual exclusion. The bad news is that you’ll need to file a gift tax return, but the good news is that you probably won’t pay a gift tax. Why? Because the extra $35,000 ($50,000 – $15,000) simply counts against your $11.2 million lifetime exclusion. Next year, if you give your brother another $50,000, the same thing happens: you use up your $15,000 annual exclusion and whittle away another $35,000 of your lifetime exclusion.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/gift-tax-rate/
Exactly. I'm amazed how rarely this is pointed out. And as noted, if you can split the proceeds over more than a year, $15k per donor and per recipient (and spouse if included) still go under the wire.

You do have to fill out Form 709, which I understand can be a bit annoying, especially on an on-going basis, but that allows you to give away as much as you like without paying tax on it. It's just subtracted from the lifetime exclusion. If your sister and brother-in-law think that they may leave an estate valued at approaching $5.6 million each (current figures), it might be a problem. For the vast majority of other families, it probably wouldn't be an issue. Obviously, they would want to run their numbers and make an educated guess, including the possibility of the exclusion dropping in the future.
In addition, if you gift an amount that’s above the annual gift tax exclusion, you can also tap into the lifetime estate and gift tax exemption. The lifetime exemption effectively shelters from tax $5 million, indexed for inflation. The inflation-indexed amount for 2017 is $5.49 million per donor. It increases to $5.6 million for 2018.

However, if you tap into the lifetime gift tax exemption, it erodes the estate tax exemption amount that would be available when you die.
https://www.mlrpc.com/articles/irs-incr ... sion-2018/
In addition to considering the possibility of the exclusion dropping back to something like $1million, there is also state estate tax to consider, depending upon state of residence at time of passing.
Those limits are more likely (these days, at least) to be closer to $1million. And that amount isn't out of sight of that many people.

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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by keepingitsimple »

nguy44 wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:09 am
One thought is that sister and brother-in-law would each give a $15K check to us this year, and then each give a $10K check to us in January, since the 15K is currently the maximum one can give in gifts before having to report it to the IRS.

However, it seems that they could give each of us $50K this year. They would still have to file form 709 but not have to actually pay any tax, since the amount is well under the $11.2M lifetime amount that can be given before tax is owed.
Both of your proposed ideas are correct. My suggestion, for what it is worth, is to keep it simple and have your sister and brother-in-law each write a $25k check for each sibling (total $50k per sibling) and file the appropriate IRS form. No tax will be due from donor or donee. I recommend this because unforeseen life events can happen, so I would not stretch the gift out unnecessarily given there will be no federal taxes involved in any of the scenarios.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by keepingitsimple »

ResearchMed wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:15 pm
bayview wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:12 pm
junior wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:30 am If you aren't expected to be gifted 11.2 mill, you will owe no federal gift tax at all and the giver won't either so it isn't an issue. As you said it just needs to be disclosed.

For example, if you give your brother $50,000 this year, you’ll use up your $15,000 annual exclusion. The bad news is that you’ll need to file a gift tax return, but the good news is that you probably won’t pay a gift tax. Why? Because the extra $35,000 ($50,000 – $15,000) simply counts against your $11.2 million lifetime exclusion. Next year, if you give your brother another $50,000, the same thing happens: you use up your $15,000 annual exclusion and whittle away another $35,000 of your lifetime exclusion.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/gift-tax-rate/
Exactly. I'm amazed how rarely this is pointed out. And as noted, if you can split the proceeds over more than a year, $15k per donor and per recipient (and spouse if included) still go under the wire.

You do have to fill out Form 709, which I understand can be a bit annoying, especially on an on-going basis, but that allows you to give away as much as you like without paying tax on it. It's just subtracted from the lifetime exclusion. If your sister and brother-in-law think that they may leave an estate valued at approaching $5.6 million each (current figures), it might be a problem. For the vast majority of other families, it probably wouldn't be an issue. Obviously, they would want to run their numbers and make an educated guess, including the possibility of the exclusion dropping in the future.
In addition, if you gift an amount that’s above the annual gift tax exclusion, you can also tap into the lifetime estate and gift tax exemption. The lifetime exemption effectively shelters from tax $5 million, indexed for inflation. The inflation-indexed amount for 2017 is $5.49 million per donor. It increases to $5.6 million for 2018.

However, if you tap into the lifetime gift tax exemption, it erodes the estate tax exemption amount that would be available when you die.
https://www.mlrpc.com/articles/irs-incr ... sion-2018/
In addition to considering the possibility of the exclusion dropping back to something like $1million, there is also state estate tax to consider, depending upon state of residence at time of passing.
Those limits are more likely (these days, at least) to be closer to $1million. And that amount isn't out of sight of that many people.

RM
ResearchMed makes a good point about looking into state taxes for estates/gifts. The tax, if any, might influence the timeframe for the gift. A quick call to a CPA could get you an answer.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by adamthesmythe »

junior wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:30 am If you aren't expected to be gifted 11.2 mill, you will owe no federal gift tax at all and the giver won't either so it isn't an issue. As you said it just needs to be disclosed.

For example, if you give your brother $50,000 this year, you’ll use up your $15,000 annual exclusion. The bad news is that you’ll need to file a gift tax return, but the good news is that you probably won’t pay a gift tax. Why? Because the extra $35,000 ($50,000 – $15,000) simply counts against your $11.2 million lifetime exclusion. Next year, if you give your brother another $50,000, the same thing happens: you use up your $15,000 annual exclusion and whittle away another $35,000 of your lifetime exclusion.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/gift-tax-rate/
This comes up a lot. Maybe there needs to be a boglehead document on gift taxes???
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by Gill »

Just write the checks for the full amount and file one gift tax return. Actually, I think you could avoid the gift tax return entirely by taking the position it was just the settlement of an estate. No need to complicate things and no need to worry about ever having gift taxes.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by dm200 »

Gill wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:26 pm Just write the checks for the full amount and file one gift tax return. Actually, I think you could avoid the gift tax return entirely by taking the position it was just the settlement of an estate. No need to complicate things and no need to worry about ever having gift taxes.
Gill
In my opinion and experience - there is often a difference between "reality" and "perception".

YES - doing this in reality is the simplest and unlikely to have any taxable (or other) negative consequences.

Perception - if anything is perceived to be negative at any subsequent time - you will be "blamed".
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by gerntz »

ResearchMed wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:15 am
nguy44 wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:09 am When dad and mom passed away, their house was inherited by one of my sisters (this was not an an issue in the family, it is a long story but we all agreed and were happy for her to have the house). Many years later, sister has gotten married, and she and brother-in-law are selling this house. They have hearts of gold and want to split the sales proceeds along all of us siblings. It is always a fun argument when people complain that they should *not* be getting something. But we reached an agreement, and sister and brother-in-law will be giving each of her siblings (there are six) $50K. The question becomes, what is the best way for them to give us the money to avoid gift taxes?

One thought is that sister and brother-in-law would each give a $15K check to us this year, and then each give a $10K check to us in January, since the 15K is currently the maximum one can give in gifts before having to report it to the IRS.

However, it seems that they could give each of us $50K this year. They would still have to file form 709 but not have to actually pay any tax, since the amount is well under the $11.2M lifetime amount that can be given before tax is owed.

Are those two options accurate, or have we missed anything for these, or missed other options?
Are all of you married?

For those who are, the husband/wife pair can EACH give to EACH of the recipient husband/wife pairs, making the annual limit of $15k x 4 not even met.
Otherwise, they can give $30k to a single recipient this year, and the other $20k the next year.

RM
This makes the most sense & is easiest to me. Since the siblings weren't big on needing/getting money anyway, why not? At this point, it's only 6 months delay in getting the balance anyway. This beats messing with another government form imo and worrying about state income or estate taxes.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by nguy44 »

Thank you for all the good advice! It certainly enlightened me to more details about gifts and gift taxes.

To answer and earlier question, yes, we all all married, and we all get along with our spouses. :D So the "checks to the spouse option" would work.

I have shared this information with my sister and other siblings, and discussions for the right balanced approach are underway. Sister and BIL want to get the money to us as soon as possible. The rest of us want them to get the money to us in a way that is most convenient for them. Another fun "argument" :happy .
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by ResearchMed »

nguy44 wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:32 am Thank you for all the good advice! It certainly enlightened me to more details about gifts and gift taxes.

To answer and earlier question, yes, we all all married, and we all get along with our spouses. :D So the "checks to the spouse option" would work.

I have shared this information with my sister and other siblings, and discussions for the right balanced approach are underway. Sister and BIL want to get the money to us as soon as possible. The rest of us want them to get the money to us in a way that is most convenient for them. Another fun "argument" :happy .
Good. Glad the sibs and especially the pairs of spouses get along :happy

I doubt any of this would ever get challenged, but just to keep everything clear cut, I'd suggest that each $15k be written as a separate check, rather than, say, the full $50k to one joint spousal pair from a joint account of another spousal pair.
It just takes perhaps a minute extra to write each separate check (less if using online banking!).

Then there is never any question about who gave what to whom, etc.

If only all families got along so well!

RM
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by dm200 »

I doubt any of this would ever get challenged, but just to keep everything clear cut, I'd suggest that each $15k be written as a separate check, rather than, say, the full $50k to one joint spousal pair from a joint account of another spousal pair.
I agree. All parties should keep copies of the checks and bank records as well.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by 47Percent »

nguy44 wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:09 am When dad and mom passed away, their house was inherited by one of my sisters (this was not an an issue in the family, it is a long story but we all agreed and were happy for her to have the house). Many years later, sister has gotten married, and she and brother-in-law are selling this house. They have hearts of gold and want to split the sales proceeds along all of us siblings. It is always a fun argument when people complain that they should *not* be getting something. But we reached an agreement, and sister and brother-in-law will be giving each of her siblings (there are six) $50K. The question becomes, what is the best way for them to give us the money to avoid gift taxes?

One thought is that sister and brother-in-law would each give a $15K check to us this year, and then each give a $10K check to us in January, since the 15K is currently the maximum one can give in gifts before having to report it to the IRS.

However, it seems that they could give each of us $50K this year. They would still have to file form 709 but not have to actually pay any tax, since the amount is well under the $11.2M lifetime amount that can be given before tax is owed.

Are those two options accurate, or have we missed anything for these, or missed other options?

Enough people have already given a gamut of opinions and suggestions. I would add mine with my experience.

1) You should suggest and your sister and BIL should try to do this in one stroke. Not spread it over two or more years.

2) They should try to stay within the gift exemption limit, if at all possible. They could get confused or intimidated by form 709, and if it goes against the lifetime exemption, some people are just incapable of handling the mental irritant of just another tax issue hanging over their entire life time -- even if it literally means nothing.

3) It is reasonably simple to gift $50K in one shot and stay within the annual gift exemption.
a) Couple to couple gift limit is $60K ($15Kx2x2); Even if one of the siblings doesn't have a spouse, or doesn't want to take it in a spouse's name, as long as there is another person in the family he/she is okay to receive this benefaction, then we are back to $60K; It could even be a minor's UTMA or 529.

4) If all above fails, get the remaining $20K (Couple to Single limit = $30K) in postdated checks for Jan, 2019. That way all the bulk of thankyou's can be said in one time. Although the deal is not sealed until the check is cashed, at least it shows clear commitment from the giver and the receiver with a specific date. Do inform them a few days before depositing the checks and thank them again!
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by ResearchMed »

47Percent wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:10 pm
nguy44 wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:09 am When dad and mom passed away, their house was inherited by one of my sisters (this was not an an issue in the family, it is a long story but we all agreed and were happy for her to have the house). Many years later, sister has gotten married, and she and brother-in-law are selling this house. They have hearts of gold and want to split the sales proceeds along all of us siblings. It is always a fun argument when people complain that they should *not* be getting something. But we reached an agreement, and sister and brother-in-law will be giving each of her siblings (there are six) $50K. The question becomes, what is the best way for them to give us the money to avoid gift taxes?

One thought is that sister and brother-in-law would each give a $15K check to us this year, and then each give a $10K check to us in January, since the 15K is currently the maximum one can give in gifts before having to report it to the IRS.

However, it seems that they could give each of us $50K this year. They would still have to file form 709 but not have to actually pay any tax, since the amount is well under the $11.2M lifetime amount that can be given before tax is owed.

Are those two options accurate, or have we missed anything for these, or missed other options?

Enough people have already given a gamut of opinions and suggestions. I would add mine with my experience.

1) You should suggest and your sister and BIL should try to do this in one stroke. Not spread it over two or more years.

2) They should try to stay within the gift exemption limit, if at all possible. They could get confused or intimidated by form 709, and if it goes against the lifetime exemption, some people are just incapable of handling the mental irritant of just another tax issue hanging over their entire life time -- even if it literally means nothing.

3) It is reasonably simple to gift $50K in one shot and stay within the annual gift exemption.
a) Couple to couple gift limit is $60K ($15Kx2x2); Even if one of the siblings doesn't have a spouse, or doesn't want to take it in a spouse's name, as long as there is another person in the family he/she is okay to receive this benefaction, then we are back to $60K; It could even be a minor's UTMA or 529.

4) If all above fails, get the remaining $20K (Couple to Single limit = $30K) in postdated checks for Jan, 2019. That way all the bulk of thankyou's can be said in one time. Although the deal is not sealed until the check is cashed, at least it shows clear commitment from the giver and the receiver with a specific date. Do inform them a few days before depositing the checks and thank them again!
OP has already stated that all siblings are married (and get along :wink: ).

So there should be no issue about "future years", and complications about postdated checks.
It can all be done with Person A to Person B (4x $15k allowed per year, but this is more than is needed).

RM
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by afan »

Gill wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:26 pm Just write the checks for the full amount and file one gift tax return. Actually, I think you could avoid the gift tax return entirely by taking the position it was just the settlement of an estate. No need to complicate things and no need to worry about ever having gift taxes.
Gill
But it is "many years later". OP does not say how long, but would a distribution years after settling the estate be an acceptable reason to avoid filing a gift tax return?

It may seem trivial to someone who spent his career as a trust officer, but I would avoid filing an extra IRS form if possible. Splitting the gifts to stay under the annual exclusion is simple and could be completed early in 2019.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by nguy44 »

The deed is done. The final specific amount turned out to be more than 50K, but still less than 60K, So Sis and BIL make out checks to everyone else, everything was under the limit, so no forms have to be filed.

In fact, one of my siblings had an idea of "why don't we all meet up and share a weekend, courtesy of Mom and Dad, since we are scattered across the country?" So the proceeds also funded travel and a 3 day weekend at a nice resort hotel for my siblings and our spouses to hang out, have fun, and toast the memory of our parents.
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Re: Sibling wants to share house sale proceeds - best way to avoid gift taxes?

Post by ResearchMed »

nguy44 wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:20 pm The deed is done. The final specific amount turned out to be more than 50K, but still less than 60K, So Sis and BIL make out checks to everyone else, everything was under the limit, so no forms have to be filed.

In fact, one of my siblings had an idea of "why don't we all meet up and share a weekend, courtesy of Mom and Dad, since we are scattered across the country?" So the proceeds also funded travel and a 3 day weekend at a nice resort hotel for my siblings and our spouses to hang out, have fun, and toast the memory of our parents.
What a very nice "solution".

Thank you for returning and sharing the details.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
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