Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc)

[wfrobinette]

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/who-needs-harvard/

Pretty comprehensive review of my personal thoughts on the matter. IMO, the most pertinent statement:

"The Gotta-Get-Ins can no longer claim to be the more or less exclusive gatekeepers to graduate school. Once, it was assumed that an elite-college undergraduate degree was required for admission to a top law or medical program. No more: 61 percent of new students at Harvard Law School last year had received their bachelor’s degrees outside the Ivy League. “Every year I have someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says. For Looking Beyond the Ivy League, Pope analyzed eight consecutive sets of scores on the medical-school aptitude test. Caltech produced the highest-scoring students, but Carleton outdid Harvard, Muhlenberg topped Dartmouth, and Ohio Wesleyan finished ahead of Berkeley..."

I have anecdotes for days regarding this, including my own life story.

I agree with you more than you realize. I don't think I would want my son to attend an Ivy League school (assuming he could actually get in) for a variety of reasons, but I see the benefit for certain students.

Personally, Pope's gatekeeper argument is not very compelling. His Harvard Law numbers actually bolster the case for attending a selective school. My medical school class (from 20+ years ago) also had about 40% from Ivy League schools (as mentioned for Harvard Law). That's actually a huge percentage since we haven't even counted Stanford, MIT, Duke, UMichigan, Cal, Johns Hopkins, or the top liberal arts colleges. The idea that attending an Ivy League school GUARANTEES a top graduate school is a joke. Nobody in this day and age should believe that.

Moreover, are you sure your personal thoughts match up to Loren Pope's contentions?

His book and organization advocate for small, selective, liberal arts schools-not large universities with 30,000 undergraduates. His Myth #4 and chapter "Why Small is Best" in his book specifically criticizes big universities for large class sizes, focus on research, and poor access to courses and faculty. The small schools he mentioned for high MCAT scores are also pretty expensive (tuition $50,000+), and some including Carleton do NOT offer merit scholarships.

This is actually where I sort of agree with Pope and could see a good fit with my kids --schools with very small class sizes (500 or so) with a dedication to undergraduate education.

Good luck.

Tried ILL state - flunked out with a 0.25 GPA

Tried Ohio state spent 3 years as an average student amassing 2 years worth of credit. Only did decent when I went to an extension and had classes with 15 or less students

Transferred to Roanoke College(fits your small college criteria) got my BBA and largest class had 15 students. MY investments class had 8 and and 2 3 summer classes with 3 students in each class. Every professor in the business department knew who I was. Not once did I have anyone less than a Phd teaching me a class. Well I take that back, my Business Law teacher was a sitting judge and my commercial banking teacher was a high ranking executive at First Union bank.

I digress. A friend of mine went to W&L and was in a summer class with 3 students. We went to visit him and hit it pretty hard on a Thursday night and he didn't get around to reading his assignment(a George Will article) carefully. Shows up to class hung over and guess who is sitting up front with the professor. George Will! YOu can't skate by when people know who you are or have small classes.

[goodenyou]

I don’t think there are many things that ingnite the excitement of overachievers more than the discussion of the education of their children.

[A-Commoner]

Math fact: the average student will get a merit scholarship in a school where most students are below average.

[A-Commoner]

Since no one is stopping smart kids from attending so called non-elite schools (or even community colleges), then there really is no problem.

[TomatoTomahto]

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of how “not too bright” I am, it is clearly the case that I know many many people paying sticker price at a private college. I am well on my way to having done it three times; given the opportunity, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

No, I am not interested in your ocean front property.

[986racer]

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of how “not too bright” I am, it is clearly the case that I know many many people paying sticker price at a private college. I am well on my way to having done it three times; given the opportunity, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

No, I am not interested in your ocean front property.

Agreed. The “no one pays sticker” myth is a great contributor to the student loan crisis because the people who believe that don’t save nearly enough

[amitb00]

I am paying full sticker price for my daughter 8 year integrated MD (PLME) at Brown University. 53% kids there get no aid. Aid is completely need based and 47% get that. So 47% don’t pay sticker price.

[Grt2bOutdoors]

Lots of people are admitted into high sticker cost academic institutions. The power of choice determines whether they agree to pay sticker or not. As someone with knowledge of how colleges are run financially, colleges are businesses seeking to maximize the dollars received.

[fourwheelcycle]

wfrobinette wrote:

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:

Lots of people are admitted into high sticker cost academic institutions. The power of choice determines whether they agree to pay sticker or not.

Who are these people and why are they promoting fake news? Do they have secret schemes to pay less than full price when their kids are accepted at their first choice colleges but they do not qualify for any financial aid?

My wife and I paid full tuition and board for our oldest to son to attend a very good private college. It was a perfect match for him.

I would encourage the moderators to review some of these assertions.

[Grt2bOutdoors]

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:

Lots of people are admitted into high sticker cost academic institutions. The power of choice determines whether they agree to pay sticker or not.

TomatoTomahto wrote:

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Who are these people and why are they promoting fake news? Do they have secret schemes to pay less than full price when their kids are accepted at their first choice colleges but they do not qualify for any financial aid?

My wife and I paid full tuition and board for our oldest to son to attend a very good private college. It was a perfect match for him.

I would encourage the moderators to review some of these assertions.

What is the fake news? Are you asserting that you don’t have a choice as to what school your child attends? Or do you believe you must pay full cost to attend any four year academic institution which confers a college degree? Or perhaps, that one must attend their first choice?


Btw, you misquoted the last poster, he did not say that.

[fourwheelcycle]

I apologize to TomatoTomahto. They did not include a name in their quote, and when I quoted their post it looked like I was attributing the comment to TomatoTomahto. I saw the mistake and corrected my post.

[TomatoTomahto]

I apologize to TomatoTomahto. They did not include a name in their quote, and when I quoted their post it looked like I was attributing the comment to TomatoTomahto. I saw the mistake and corrected my post.

I will also apologize. Quoting from my phone when I'm too lazy to go upstairs to my PC, I sometimes find it easier to simply provide the quote without naming the source. That leads to these kinds of confusion.

My original intent was to indicate that a demonstrably false statement had been made: "No one pays sticker at a private college." I personally have paid 10 student-years of full sticker price at privates, and, as I indicated, would do so again in a heart beat. Other forum members indicated that they had done so also.

[stoptothink]

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of how “not too bright” I am, it is clearly the case that I know many many people paying sticker price at a private college. I am well on my way to having done it three times; given the opportunity, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

No, I am not interested in your ocean front property.

Agreed. The “no one pays sticker” myth is a great contributor to the student loan crisis because the people who believe that don’t save nearly enough

+1. There is also a "myth" that it is really easy to get scholarships or grants. I'd love to see some good studies on this. I didn't pay sticker price, due to merit/athletic scholarships and grants and neither did all of my siblings(my sister had a full Ivy tuition scholarship for undergrad because we were low-income, she did borrow tens of thousands to cover living costs), but I know countless people that did (and had no choice). Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with. In that respect, thanks Tomato.

[MDfan]

Daughter going out-of-state from Maryland (to UT-Knoxville) and getting Tennessee in-state tuition through the Academic Common Market Program. Pretty sure there's a similar program in western states. Son was given lots of free money to go out of state as well due to academics. He was a very good, but not great student.

[g2morrow]

short answer - No.

[986racer]

Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with.

Is that how it really works? I thought that grants and scholarships come out of endowments. And endowments come from donations. Are there schools that are taking money from one family and applying it to another family’s tuition?

I thought if a school didn’t have the funds for the lower income students, the “aid” is really just parent PLUS loans

[smitcat]

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of how “not too bright” I am, it is clearly the case that I know many many people paying sticker price at a private college. I am well on my way to having done it three times; given the opportunity, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

No, I am not interested in your ocean front property.

Agreed. The “no one pays sticker” myth is a great contributor to the student loan crisis because the people who believe that don’t save nearly enough

+1. There is also a "myth" that it is really easy to get scholarships or grants. I'd love to see some good studies on this. I didn't pay sticker price, due to merit/athletic scholarships and grants and neither did all of my siblings(my sister had a full Ivy tuition scholarship for undergrad because we were low-income, she did borrow tens of thousands to cover living costs), but I know countless people that did (and had no choice). Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with. In that respect, thanks Tomato.

"There is also a "myth" that it is really easy to get scholarships or grants"
Easy - likely not. But it was not too much work to visit our short list of private colleges and meet with full time admissions folks to see what is really available. Visiting 3 of the short listed colleges we learned that my daughter would likely qualify for a good deal less then what the 'sticker' price stated. As a result she elected a choice that ended up being about 50% of the 'sticker price' before figuring in work study which was also provided along the way. This was since her first freshman year about 7 years back through her senior year.

[TomatoTomahto]

Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with. In that respect, thanks Tomato.

You’re very welcome. Education is something that, as long as aid wasn’t “gamed,” I’m very happy to subsidize.

[livesoft]

Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with.

Is that how it really works? I thought that grants and scholarships come out of endowments. And endowments come from donations. Are there schools that are taking money from one family and applying it to another family’s tuition?

I thought if a school didn’t have the funds for the lower income students, the “aid” is really just parent PLUS loans

See this recent article in the NYtimes: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... costs.html Just know that "middle class" is not what many people here think is middle class, as in "I'm middle class, so my kids should get a break on college expenses." I'll make it easy and post a screen capture from the article (citing "fair use"):



In particular the OP wrote:

...
2. We are an upper middle class family when my kids apply for college (i.e. a few million dollar net worth).
...

The OP probably falls into the "Very Affluent" family category for this exercise, despite declaring themselves "upper middle class."

[Jack FFR1846]

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of how “not too bright” I am, it is clearly the case that I know many many people paying sticker price at a private college. I am well on my way to having done it three times; given the opportunity, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.

No, I am not interested in your ocean front property.

Couldn't find who made that original quote, but it's wrong.

In most cases, transfer students are offered zero aid. Both I and my son are cases in point.

I had a community college degree and 3 years working as a tech, going to night school at a mostly business college with engineering in there. Decided I could do the work, quit my job, sold everything I owned and went back. Before the first year was complete, I knew I could do the work and could push myself more at a better school, so applied at a number of excellent engineering colleges. Accepted and went. Zero aid, but in the early 80's, I could use my savings to pay my way through. I was a solid A student at my first college. Perhaps that somehow paints me as too dumb to get into .... I don't know.... somewhere. So I completed my degree (with distinction) at the great school, worked and the company then sent me for my MSEE. I received 2 terms (7 weeks each) of work study and no other aid. I found a few small outside scholarships that only required that I had come from the county where the scholarship resided.

My son went his first year to a mediocre engineering college with $11k merit scholarship for 4 years with a total cost of attendance of $44k. I always told him that if he did well enough and wanted to go to a better school, I would support him. He pretty much "aced out" of the mediocre college where most students had no real interest in learning anything and was accepted into both BU and WPI. BU threw lots of $$ at him but WPI was his first choice and a much better engineering school and he went there. Zero aid. The workload became easily double what it was at the mediocre school but he works his butt off. He's been on the honor role and Dean's list most semesters. He's currently working a summer internship analyzing stresses on military aquatic vehicles (billable hours). Perhaps he's not too bright as the quote above says.....but of 1000 summer interns this company hires, there are 10 who are generating billable hours for doing actual work, rather than taking minutes notes and making coffee. I'm paying full boat minus Stafford loans that he takes every year. While working the summer, he's taking an online WPI course in Linear Algebra. He is not afraid of work and I'm quite proud of him.

To me, it's worth it. The school fits the challenges he's up to. When my kids (2) were young, I expected it would cost me $1MM for college, so I'm actually sort of getting a bargain compared to what I thought he could spare.

[Pigeon]

I have one in college now and one starting in a few months. Both are attending four year comprehensive schools that are part of our state university system. Both are better than average students, but not top of their class, probably in the top 15% in high school. In general, there is very little merit aid given out in this state university system. I work in the same system and most of the colleges and universities are very forthright about the fact that there is almost no merit aid.

DD1 had slightly better grades, better test scores and much more impressive extracurricular activities. She got no financial aid from the school. She received a small private scholarship. She since has received an annual token scholarship from the music department, although she is not a music major or minor, just active in performance and activities.

DD2 received a significant merit scholarship, renewable for four years if she keeps a very reasonable GPA, with no other strings attached. (If she could not keep this GPA, the Bank of Mom and Dad would also cut her off.) This scholarship represents about 28% of the total cost of attendance for all four years. The ostensible reason for this scholarship was DD's "leadership" skills. I suspect the real reason is that she plans to major in a subject that is almost exclusively male at this school, and they wanted her. The scholarship, however, is not tied to remaining in this major.

My kids are both minority students, but are Asian, and as such they are often viewed by colleges as being over-represented. DD2 also received a small scholarship from a community organization. She did not even apply for it. The community organization asks the teachers at the high school to pick a student matching certain criteria, and we were quite surprised when she was selected.

My point, OP, is that you won't know until your kids apply. Each kid is different and each college is different.

[A440]

I am currently reading "Winning the College Admissions Game" (https://www.amazon.com/Winning-College- ... sions+game). The author (a former admissions dean) gave a seminar at our local high school. Half the book is for parents and the other half is for your student. It is an interesting read.
Yes, grades and scores matter, as do special talents/abilities and your ability to cover some/all of the tuition. The schools also want some certainty that you will choose to go there if you are accepted. However, what might determine acceptance and offer of merit scholarship more than grades/scores is that your child "fits" whatever particular need the school has to "check the box". Maybe they need a female tuba player, or someone who can swim the butterfly stroke in record time. Perhaps they need a specific gender or ethnicity to fill a requirement for a particular major. If you can glean what "boxes" colleges on your child's list are seeking to "check", you may find better offers of grants than if your child has great grades/scores/talents, but there are plenty of similar candidates for your child's major.

[fourwheelcycle]

However, what might determine acceptance and offer of merit scholarship more than grades/scores is that your child "fits" whatever particular need the school has to "check the box". Maybe they need a female tuba player, or someone who can swim the butterfly stroke in record time.

Right. I heard from an Ivy admissions officer that if they need an oboe player and you play the oboe your chances of admission increase dramatically!

[student]

Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with.

Is that how it really works? I thought that grants and scholarships come out of endowments. And endowments come from donations. Are there schools that are taking money from one family and applying it to another family’s tuition?

I thought if a school didn’t have the funds for the lower income students, the “aid” is really just parent PLUS loans

At my school, part of the financial aid expenditure is from the general fund, which consists of money from the state and tuition. Several years ago, when the school raised tuition, part of the officially stated goal was to expand scholarship and financial aid.

[GreenGrowTheDollars]

Yep, that is totally a contributor to the student loan crisis and those millions of kids/parents paying sticker are partially subsidizing those of us who didn't; which in all honesty, I am not too comfortable with.

Is that how it really works? I thought that grants and scholarships come out of endowments. And endowments come from donations. Are there schools that are taking money from one family and applying it to another family’s tuition?

I thought if a school didn’t have the funds for the lower income students, the “aid” is really just parent PLUS loans

At my school, part of the financial aid expenditure is from the general fund, which consists of money from the state and tuition. Several years ago, when the school raised tuition, part of the officially stated goal was to expand scholarship and financial aid.

Absolutely. The University of California was very explicit about this.

[GreenGrowTheDollars]

"Upper Middle Class" and assets.

Many parents who fall into the upper middle-class category (on the great NYT article) from an income perspective fail to take into account their assets. Colleges don't make that mistake.

#1 problem -- home equity, especially in a HCOL may be a significant issue. Colleges that only use FAFSA don't consider home equity, but colleges that use Profile or their own financial aid forms may use it. How they use it is likely the largest contributor to variances between financial aid at highly selective colleges. (A few use 0%, some cap at 120% of total family income, some at 240%, some simply include it in an overall asset calculation.) A family with a $160K income and $500K in home equity might have their family contribution raised from $0 to $25K/year depending on how the specific college treats home equity. This is in addition to whatever contribution is calculated from income.

#2 problem -- your income is higher than what the IRS considers income. Doesn't matter whether it is taxable or not. 401K/SEP/IRA contributions get added back in as income. If you and a spouse each contributed $20K to a 401K (not a Roth 401K) your income is going to be grossed up by $40K.

#3 problem - rental real estate. Equity is considered like cash in the bank. Furthermore, colleges often add back non-cash expenses (depreciation, amortization) which boosts your family's income. They don't care that your little beach cottage/mountain cabin/first home was inherited from your parents.

#4 problem - divorce. With just a couple of exceptions, highly selective colleges will insist on evaluating the financial status of both of the student's parents. They weren't party to your divorce decree, they don't feel bound by any statements in it about who will or won't be responsible for college expenses, and they won't budge just because a parent elects not to provide info. (Exceptions get made where a parent is long gone with no contact, institutionalized, or where there have been documented abuse or domestic violence issues within the family that can be substantiated by an outside party like a social worker, guidance counselor, minister,...)

#5 problem - assets in kid's names. Some kids have UGMA/UTMA accounts with significant assets. "Grandma wanted him to use this to help buy his first home" doesn't make it disappear from a financial aid perspective. Sometimes the kid is the parent. I have two families where estate planning by grandparents resulted in a bunch of assets being retitled in their adult kids' names or making their adult kids primary beneficiaries of irrevocable trusts. That can really complicate the financial aid picture.

At most highly selective colleges that don't give pure merit aid, assets are the primary reason upper middle income families end up without the financial aid they hoped to get. Even Harvard, which has some of the very best financial aid in the country, includes this in their financial aid disclosure: "Families at all income levels who have significant assets are asked to pay more than those in less fortunate circumstances." Luckily, they are one of the colleges that doesn't consider home equity, so they still often end up being the least expensive school for a student who can be admitted -- and much less expensive than Stanford.

[CnC]

wfrobinette wrote:

No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ.

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:

Lots of people are admitted into high sticker cost academic institutions. The power of choice determines whether they agree to pay sticker or not.

Who are these people and why are they promoting fake news? Do they have secret schemes to pay less than full price when their kids are accepted at their first choice colleges but they do not qualify for any financial aid?

My wife and I paid full tuition and board for our oldest to son to attend a very good private college. It was a perfect match for him.

I would encourage the moderators to review some of these assertions.

Perhaps but in my college years there wasn't a single private college that I applied to that did not offer me substantial scholarships and grants. Perhaps things have changed since 15 years ago but I had been under the assumption that those scholarships were something nearly everyone got.

Granted the 10-15k a year scholarships were not enough to to make the private schools competitive with state Universities. So I choose to get my engineering degree from a state school.

[shawndoggy]

Perhaps but in my college years there wasn't a single private college that I applied to that did not offer me substantial scholarships and grants. Perhaps things have changed since 15 years ago but I had been under the assumption that those scholarships were something nearly everyone got.

Ivies are strictly need based. So if FAFSA says your expected family contribution exceeds the rack rate, there will be no discount, period.

This is a first-world-woe-is-me problem, but it does stink to be an upper middle class parent with a couple of million NW to be treated the same as Bill Gates. Could I have paid full price for ivies for my two kids? probably. But it would've been a substantial financial strain and would've meant years of additional work before retirement. Did I shortchange them by having them go to good-but-not-great-and-definitely-not-elite colleges where they were offered substantial scholarships for my own financial security?

We will never know, but I sure hope not.

[CnC]

Perhaps but in my college years there wasn't a single private college that I applied to that did not offer me substantial scholarships and grants. Perhaps things have changed since 15 years ago but I had been under the assumption that those scholarships were something nearly everyone got.

Ivies are strictly need based. So if FAFSA says your expected family contribution exceeds the rack rate, there will be no discount, period.

This is a first-world-woe-is-me problem, but it does stink to be an upper middle class parent with a couple of million NW to be treated the same as Bill Gates. Could I have paid full price for ivies for my two kids? probably. But it would've been a substantial financial strain and would've meant years of additional work before retirement. Did I shortchange them by having them go to good-but-not-great-and-definitely-not-elite colleges where they were offered substantial scholarships for my own financial security?

We will never know, but I sure hope not.

Ahh I was talking about normal private and state schools not the "elite"

I don't think so, my wife and I went to a very reasonable state University and there were absolutely no barriers for us and despite graduating at the peak of the "great recession" we have never spent a day without a good career.

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

[fourwheelcycle]

I guess I can see why this thread is so long - everybody has a college story about themselves or their kids.

I noted above that my wife and I paid full price for one of our sons to attend his very good first choice private college. Our other son's first choice was a well-known technical institute that happens to have a merit-based scholarship program - they will award a fifty-percent tuition and board scholarship to the top-ranked science student at each high school (in the whole US?) regardless of their qualification for financial aid. Presumably they do this to attract good students.

This program caught my eye so I looked into it. Our son was an excellent science student, but I imagine not the top science student in his class. I asked his school's college guidance counselor if they could honestly nominate him as the school's top science student for that year. They were aware of the program and told me that, in fact, our son did not have to be the absolute top science student in his class, he only had to be the top science student who was applying to XYZ technical institute - and indeed he was! He ended up being awarded the scholarship, and since his grandfather attended the same school he also received another 7% legacy scholarship on top of that. So yes, under some circumstances kids from families that do not qualify for any financial aid can receive free college money.

[PatrickA5]

DS had good HS grades (around 4.0), but only above average ACT. Top private school in area was giving $15K "scholarships" to anybody that qualified to get into the school (which he would have), bringing the cost down to around $40K per year. He ended up going to state university ($20K per year). From there he got a free Tshirt and a nice water bottle. Wasted our time filling out FAFSA the first year. Our expected contribution was $70K.

[staythecourse]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

I'll get flamed for this, but agree 100%. The issue is not WHERE the kid goes to school, but how well they do when they are there AND what they go into career wise.

Good luck.

[randomguy]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

[stoptothink]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

In the world of anecdotes...my sister, who I have already mentioned several times in this thread, has BAs in art history and English lit from an Ivy, an MA in history of art and visual culture from Oxford, and another MA (this one from NYU) in cinema studies. She was a national merit scholar in high school, yet at 33 is literally working at a cafe and living in my mother's basement trying to pay off 6-figures in school loans. She's brilliant and a very hard worker, but her university education (even by her own admission, and IMO she is the epitome of a snobby academia elitist) was essentially worthless as it pertains to getting a real world job which could support her. She has had some random jobs related to her major (principally as a library and museum archivist), but they were all contract work and low-paying enough to have her quit to work in cafes and restaurants. I have met a number of her friends, almost all with similar educational backgrounds (virtually all are former classmates), and with the exception of a few teachers, they are all in similar positions.

I guess she could have gone to law school, but other than that, her career opportunities are close to nil thanks to her education.

[randomguy]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

In the world of anecdotes...my sister, who I have already mentioned several times in this thread, has BAs in art history and English lit from an Ivy, an MA in history of art and visual culture from Oxford, and another MA (this one from NYU) in cinema studies. She was a national merit scholar in high school, yet at 33 is literally working at a cafe and living in my mother's basement trying to pay off 6-figures in school loans. She's brilliant and a very hard worker, but her university education (even by her own admission, and IMO she is the epitome of a snobby academia elitist) was essentially worthless as it pertains to getting a real world job which could support her. She has had some random jobs related to her major (principally as a library and museum archivist), but they were all contract work and low-paying enough to have her quit to work in cafes and restaurants. I have met a number of her friends, almost all with similar educational backgrounds (virtually all are former classmates), and with the exception of a few teachers, they are all in similar positions.

I guess she could have gone to law school, but other than that, her career opportunities are close to nil thanks to her education.

So you have a person who writes well enough to get a masters but is unable to find a job to exploit that ability? You blame the education. I blame the people that are not applying themselves. Get a degree in engineering and your career path is easy. Get one in art history and you are going to have to sell people on why they need to hire you. In a lot of ways it is the same discussion as elite schools versus normal. One is an easier path but you can get to the same destination with either.

[A-Commoner]

Someone with an English degree from an Ivy and an MA from Oxford could potentially use those degrees to write and sell books. Novels, non fiction, whatever her area of interest and competence may be......if the person is a half decent writer with something unique and important to say, that educational background should provide a good head start over the competition. A bestseller or 2 could be enough to recoup the college investment and pay for retirement. I don’t see the degree being the impediment here.

[ivk5]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

In the world of anecdotes...my sister, who I have already mentioned several times in this thread, has BAs in art history and English lit from an Ivy, an MA in history of art and visual culture from Oxford, and another MA (this one from NYU) in cinema studies. She was a national merit scholar in high school, yet at 33 is literally working at a cafe and living in my mother's basement trying to pay off 6-figures in school loans. She's brilliant and a very hard worker, but her university education (even by her own admission, and IMO she is the epitome of a snobby academia elitist) was essentially worthless as it pertains to getting a real world job which could support her. She has had some random jobs related to her major (principally as a library and museum archivist), but they were all contract work and low-paying enough to have her quit to work in cafes and restaurants. I have met a number of her friends, almost all with similar educational backgrounds (virtually all are former classmates), and with the exception of a few teachers, they are all in similar positions.

I guess she could have gone to law school, but other than that, her career opportunities are close to nil thanks to her education.

So you have a person who writes well enough to get a masters but is unable to find a job to exploit that ability? You blame the education. I blame the people that are not applying themselves. Get a degree in engineering and your career path is easy. Get one in art history and you are going to have to sell people on why they need to hire you. In a lot of ways it is the same discussion as elite schools versus normal. One is an easier path but you can get to the same destination with either.

To me the second masters program tells the story (serial student). I am a firm believer in value of liberal arts education and disagree with folks here who claim that education that is not strictly vocational is a poor investment. There are certainly ways to directly leverage this background: arts of course, PhD and academic track, writing / editing / film critic / journalist, museums/libraries/archives, etc. If those are not consistent with current goals, this person needs a positive plan for next step. Many fields are open to people with this sort of background although she would likely start at entry level.

[Lynette]

/////

[Grt2bOutdoors]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

Left handed puppetry says Dave Ramsey. He does have a point.

[TomatoTomahto]

My ex-wife has a degree in English Lit and the ability to understand what engineers are telling her. She has made a six digit annual income, working mostly from home.

My sister-in-Law has a BFA and an MFA. She does well financially, has installations and showings around the world, heads an academic department, and is very fulfilled in her life.

My sister received (iirc) a degree in ceramics. She graduated top 5 in her law school. She’s semi-retired now, but she was a “name” in LGBT law.

[CnC]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

In the world of anecdotes...my sister, who I have already mentioned several times in this thread, has BAs in art history and English lit from an Ivy, an MA in history of art and visual culture from Oxford, and another MA (this one from NYU) in cinema studies. She was a national merit scholar in high school, yet at 33 is literally working at a cafe and living in my mother's basement trying to pay off 6-figures in school loans. She's brilliant and a very hard worker, but her university education (even by her own admission, and IMO she is the epitome of a snobby academia elitist) was essentially worthless as it pertains to getting a real world job which could support her. She has had some random jobs related to her major (principally as a library and museum archivist), but they were all contract work and low-paying enough to have her quit to work in cafes and restaurants. I have met a number of her friends, almost all with similar educational backgrounds (virtually all are former classmates), and with the exception of a few teachers, they are all in similar positions.

I guess she could have gone to law school, but other than that, her career opportunities are close to nil thanks to her education.

Thanks for answering the question for me.

I view college as a means to an ends. If you truly want to "experience culture And understand the world" get a good job work for 15± years saving every bit you can then travel the world once you are on your own dime.

[CnC]

My ex-wife has a degree in English Lit and the ability to understand what engineers are telling her. She has made a six digit annual income, working mostly from home.

My sister-in-Law has a BFA and an MFA. She does well financially, has installations and showings around the world, heads an academic department, and is very fulfilled in her life.

My sister received (iirc) a degree in ceramics. She graduated top 5 in her law school. She’s semi-retired now, but she was a “name” in LGBT law.

I didn't say you couldn't get a job with a ba/ma just that you are spending much more money and making life needlessly difficult.

But both your ex and your sister are doing things that have nothing to do with their majors. A degree in English literature has nothing to do with technical writing and your sister had a good job because she was a lawyer here degree in cersmics had nothing to do with it.

Once again do what you want but getting a degree in art history or other random things like that likely will not lead you to gainful employment.

[TomatoTomahto]

My ex-wife has a degree in English Lit and the ability to understand what engineers are telling her. She has made a six digit annual income, working mostly from home.

My sister-in-Law has a BFA and an MFA. She does well financially, has installations and showings around the world, heads an academic department, and is very fulfilled in her life.

My sister received (iirc) a degree in ceramics. She graduated top 5 in her law school. She’s semi-retired now, but she was a “name” in LGBT law.

I didn't say you couldn't get a job with a ba/ma just that you are spending much more money and making life needlessly difficult.

But both your ex and your sister are doing things that have nothing to do with their majors. A degree in English literature has nothing to do with technical writing and your sister had a good job because she was a lawyer here degree in cersmics had nothing to do with it.

Once again do what you want but getting a degree in art history or other random things like that likely will not lead you to gainful employment.

I should have also mentioned my Brother-in-Law who earned a degree in Botany from an Ivy and is a Stay-at-Home-Dad and my wife who earned a Biopsychology degree and has been fabulously successful in Tech/Banking.

Well over half of my immediate family have earned degrees in subjects that had no direct relationship with their careers. I don't think the majors made life "needlessly difficult," but we can agree to disagree on that. I have known wonderfully gifted lawyers whose undergraduate degree was in Philosophy; I don't think it's an accident, because Philosophy, while a difficult major, does get them to hone their gray matter to a fine edge.

[marcopolo]

upper middle class parent with a couple of million NW

That seems like an oxymoron. See Livesoft's post above.

[CnC]

I should have also mentioned my Brother-in-Law who earned a degree in Botany from an Ivy and is a Stay-at-Home-Dad and my wife who earned a Biopsychology degree and has been fabulously successful in Tech/Banking.

Well over half of my immediate family have earned degrees in subjects that had no direct relationship with their careers. I don't think the majors made life "needlessly difficult," but we can agree to disagree on that. I have known wonderfully gifted lawyers whose undergraduate degree was in Philosophy; I don't think it's an accident, because Philosophy, while a difficult major, does get them to hone their gray matter to a fine edge.

The fact that so many of your immediate family was able to to afford so many degrees indicates your family is in the top ±5% of the country so it's more likely than not that they will be successful. Starting halfway to the finish line makes it pretty easy to cross.

No offense is intended by this, but compared to the average American the results are non transferable.

It's like saying in the financial world I have 12 million so I am 100% in stocks and bonds are unnecessary. For you that may be the case, but the same doesn't hold true for the average person or even the well above average person.

[ivk5]

The fact that so many of your immediate family was able to to afford so many degrees indicates your family is in the top ±5% of the country so it's more likely than not that they will be successful. Starting halfway to the finish line makes it pretty easy to cross.

No offense is intended by this but compared to the average American the results are non transferable.

It's like saying in the financial world I have 12 million so I am 100% in stocks and bonds are unnecessary. For you that may be the case, but the same doesn't hold true for the average person or even the well above average person.

I am sure we are not going to convince you. But neither am I likely to be convinced of such a narrow relevance for learning to read, write, research, think, analyze, communicate, argue and persuade, participate in civil society, and live a curious and ethical life.

[stoptothink]

The only way to shortchange your child is to let them choose a dumb major.

And what is a dumb major? I know it is popular to think of college as a trade school these days, but there a few majors that are not stepping stones to jobs. Granted with half of them you end up having to go to law school

In the world of anecdotes...my sister, who I have already mentioned several times in this thread, has BAs in art history and English lit from an Ivy, an MA in history of art and visual culture from Oxford, and another MA (this one from NYU) in cinema studies. She was a national merit scholar in high school, yet at 33 is literally working at a cafe and living in my mother's basement trying to pay off 6-figures in school loans. She's brilliant and a very hard worker, but her university education (even by her own admission, and IMO she is the epitome of a snobby academia elitist) was essentially worthless as it pertains to getting a real world job which could support her. She has had some random jobs related to her major (principally as a library and museum archivist), but they were all contract work and low-paying enough to have her quit to work in cafes and restaurants. I have met a number of her friends, almost all with similar educational backgrounds (virtually all are former classmates), and with the exception of a few teachers, they are all in similar positions.

I guess she could have gone to law school, but other than that, her career opportunities are close to nil thanks to her education.

So you have a person who writes well enough to get a masters but is unable to find a job to exploit that ability? You blame the education. I blame the people that are not applying themselves. Get a degree in engineering and your career path is easy. Get one in art history and you are going to have to sell people on why they need to hire you. In a lot of ways it is the same discussion as elite schools versus normal. One is an easier path but you can get to the same destination with either.

I get the feeling that you are being purposely obtuse for the sake of arguing, but "writing well enough to get a masters" means very little in private industry. Well, that is the opinion of someone who has more than half a dozen technical writers on their staff; two of which don't have a college degree at all and the rest who have degrees in various unrelated fields. Is their value in being able to "write well enough to get a masters"? Absolutely, does that place you above someone who has nothing more than a high school diploma? Not necessarily. More than a decade and few hundred thousand spent on education and the ROI in terms of helping further develop skills which would be beneficial in landing a career were very slim.

I am absolutely not saying her time spent studying was worthless, but the ROI in terms of preparation for a career pretty much is. If you want to go further down this road, I also have ~55 year old uncle who is a linguist (with a PhD), who only speaks a single language (his "expertise" is in some form of testing); feel free to talk to him about his experience attempting to get a job outside of academia.

[CnC]

The fact that so many of your immediate family was able to to afford so many degrees indicates your family is in the top ±5% of the country so it's more likely than not that they will be successful. Starting halfway to the finish line makes it pretty easy to cross.

No offense is intended by this but compared to the average American the results are non transferable.

It's like saying in the financial world I have 12 million so I am 100% in stocks and bonds are unnecessary. For you that may be the case, but the same doesn't hold true for the average person or even the well above average person.

I am sure we are not going to convince you. But neither am I likely to be convinced of such a narrow relevance for learning to read, write, research, think, analyze, communicate, argue and persuade, participate in civil society, and live a curious and ethical life.

I agree. My view of education is utility over utopia. You value utopia over utility. It is a very common argument.

[stoptothink]

The fact that so many of your immediate family was able to to afford so many degrees indicates your family is in the top ±5% of the country so it's more likely than not that they will be successful. Starting halfway to the finish line makes it pretty easy to cross.

No offense is intended by this but compared to the average American the results are non transferable.

It's like saying in the financial world I have 12 million so I am 100% in stocks and bonds are unnecessary. For you that may be the case, but the same doesn't hold true for the average person or even the well above average person.

I am sure we are not going to convince you. But neither am I likely to be convinced of such a narrow relevance for learning to read, write, research, think, analyze, communicate, argue and persuade, participate in civil society, and live a curious and ethical life.

I agree. My view of education is utility over utopia. You value utopia over utility. It is a very common argument.

+1. My viewpoint directly aligns with yours. As someone who was raised in abject poverty by a single parent who didn't graduate high school, unless the years and financial resources invested in higher education directly resulted in a better job, it wasn't even an option. No point in debating the value of education in any other context; the two sides will never agree.

[goodenyou]

The fact that so many of your immediate family was able to to afford so many degrees indicates your family is in the top ±5% of the country so it's more likely than not that they will be successful. Starting halfway to the finish line makes it pretty easy to cross.

No offense is intended by this but compared to the average American the results are non transferable.

It's like saying in the financial world I have 12 million so I am 100% in stocks and bonds are unnecessary. For you that may be the case, but the same doesn't hold true for the average person or even the well above average person.

I am sure we are not going to convince you. But neither am I likely to be convinced of such a narrow relevance for learning to read, write, research, think, analyze, communicate, argue and persuade, participate in civil society, and live a curious and ethical life.

I agree. My view of education is utility over utopia. You value utopia over utility. It is a very common argument.

+1. My viewpoint directly aligns with yours. As someone who was raised in abject poverty by a single parent who didn't graduate high school, unless the years and financial resources invested in higher education directly resulted in a better job, it wasn't even an option. No point in debating the value of education in any other context; the two sides will never agree.

When you have nobody to rely on to bail you out (rich parents), you are much more pragmatic. Makes complete sense. Going to college with very rich kids made me realize there are differences in how we approach our decisions on funding education and education pathways.