Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc)

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SimonJester
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by SimonJester »

cockersx3 wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:23 pm As a "millionaire next door type," do your children know your approximate net worth? Have read several posts on this thread that imply that students see everything that goes in the application, so I'm curious how this would work if (like us) you haven't shared that kind of info with your kids. If you have to share that info to do the FAFSA, in our case that would be a very strong argument for not filling it out. Like you, i do not expect any need based aid.

Man, I am dreading this whole experience already. Only a few years away too :oops:
You can view what the parent is going to fill out on the FAFSA by looking at the paper version:

https://fafsa.ed.gov/fotw1819/pdf/PdfFafsa18-19.pdf

I sat down with my son and we filled it out together, so all in the open. The IRS data retrieval tool did not work to pull in my data so I had to manually enter my 1040 info. I am not sure if using the IRS DRT if the fields come in shown online or not. Another thing is at the end this will generate a SAR (Student Aid Report). The student will be able to download this report any time from the FAFSA web site. This report has all the information filled out in the FAFSA, so again everything all out in the open...

I was open and honest to my student about the information we filled out, I explained why it would not be a good idea to divulge this information to others to include other family members. I would also add my student completely forgot the numbers about 5 seconds after we filled them out.

Something to also be aware of many merit based scholarships require the FAFSA as well as many private scholarships. So its not just for those with need based aid...
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snowman
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by snowman »

SimonJester wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:05 pmThe IRS data retrieval tool did not work to pull in my data so I had to manually enter my 1040 info. I am not sure if using the IRS DRT if the fields come in shown online or not.
Starting with 2018-2019 FA cycle, after many problems in the past, including major security breach, IRS DRT does not show values anymore, it just says "Transferred from the IRS". The same is shown in SAR. However, "Income earned from work" for each parent has to be entered manually (does not transfer), and the same goes for all assets. So there really isn't much hiding even you transfer data from the IRS.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by bonglehead »

I am betting on my daughter graduating high school with >=3.3 GPA and her getting into a GA state university so that her tuition is paid in full by the HOPE scholarship.
I know hope is not a good strategy but thats all I have right now! 8-)
SimonJester
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by SimonJester »

snowman wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:36 pm
SimonJester wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:05 pmThe IRS data retrieval tool did not work to pull in my data so I had to manually enter my 1040 info. I am not sure if using the IRS DRT if the fields come in shown online or not.
Starting with 2018-2019 FA cycle, after many problems in the past, including major security breach, IRS DRT does not show values anymore, it just says "Transferred from the IRS". The same is shown in SAR. However, "Income earned from work" for each parent has to be entered manually (does not transfer), and the same goes for all assets. So there really isn't much hiding even you transfer data from the IRS.
I wonder if the IRS DRT tool is blocked by having a security freeze? I know creating an online IRS account is. I dont know why but we could never get it to work and gave up after multiple attempts...
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by goodenyou »

In 18 years, a college degree could cost $500,000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/17/in-18-y ... 00000.html

I wonder what the projections were 18 years ago. I wonder if they were close to $250,000-$300,000.

Parents need to save a lot if they want to insulate their kids from crushing debt.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by livesoft »

A 4-year college degree with room & board, books, fees costs under $100,000 in most of the USA nowadays. Where does this $250K to $300K number come from? Oh, nevermind, it comes from private universities who overcharge that most students do not try to go to.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by emlowe »

livesoft wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:15 pm A 4-year college degree with room & board, books, fees costs under $100,000 in most of the USA nowadays. Where does this $250K to $300K number come from? Oh, nevermind, it comes from private universities who overcharge that most students do not try to go to.
+1

Calfornia State (CSU) system: ~25k per year depending a little on campus (2018)
University of California (UC) system: ~35k per year depending a little on campus (2018)

An "average" student might get into UC, but no way get into a private school. Acceptance rates: UCLA (18%), UC Berkeley (18%), Stanford (5%)
Now some of the UCs are a little easier to get into like UC Davis (45%), UCSD (35%)

But you need a minimum of GPA of 3.0 to even qualify for UC system. Apparently, that is the mean GPA for HS females (3.1), but it is above the mean for males (2.9) - so technically the average male High Schooler doesn't qualify to attend a UC.

(GPA inflation FTW btw: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles ... since-1990)

I'm saving what I think to be around the costs for a UC system school.

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cockersx3
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by cockersx3 »

livesoft wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:35 pm @cockersx3, My kids know our approximate net worth which has grown since the last FAFSA went in. I think their reaction was "Whatever, let me go back to watching TV and texting." Was that kind of your question of "how would this work"?

They know how the world works and understand why some of their friends' families have lots more money than we do and why some have lots less money and why some have about the same. I never worried about them knowing about our net worth nor incomes. Nothing to dread.

Also, my kids are adults now with their college degrees. They ask me for investing and tax help about once a year which means we talk financial stuff occasionally. Do you talk to your kids now about financial stuff? I think you should if you don't.
Thanks for the response. Yes, we talk about financial stiff but in more general terms. My kids know that the cars we drive are somewhat older relative to their friends' parents, and that we DIY a lot more than peers, go on less extravagant vacations, etc. We talk about it, and we discuss why we do what we do - that just because we can spend money on something does not necessarily mean that we should, and that in our case we choose to spend money on things that we value. We also have discussed our plans to retire relatively early, which in our mind partly the result of those behaviors. I have also shared stories with them about situations at work in which I was able to stand up for myself, partly because of the backup options that we have created for ourselves. I think the message has sunk in. The kids have turned into savers themselves - oldest recently surpassed 4 figures in her savings account (all from birthdays, mowing lawns, etc) which is nice to see.

That said, we have not shared exact net work figures with them. Our original intention was to share with them after they have launched as adults. My fear is that sharing now would make it all-too-easy for them to mention the seven-figure net worth to someone else, which would make for awkward conversations for everyone. Probably an overblown fear based on the experiences shared by you and other posters, but still something about which we are concerned. Since it is apparently a required part of the FAFSA process, and since there is conflicting information on whether the application is consistently required for non-need-based aid, we may end up having to change our stance on this....
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by timmy »

Another option to consider. My son is (just starting to) exploring this right now. So the details are sketchy. He will be working for a small insurance company this summer (computer and math stuff). Anyway, they said if it works out this summer and it is agreeable to both sides, he would keep doing project work for them during the school year and he could be included in their tuition reimbursement program. That's worth about 5k to 10k year. I don't know how actionable it is for most folks. But it wasn't on our radar and we hadn't heard others talk about it.

Again, good luck.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by mouses »

BuckyBadger wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 7:43 am I did get several full ride offers from small schools that I'd never heard of. These were cold call offers to schools I'd not applied to. They got my new from SAT results i think.
I had that happen decades ago. I think it was because of being a National Merit finalist. One of them, Reed, was well regarded, but didn't offer the field I was interested in.

Here are some states getting on various degrees of the free tuition bandwagon:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/03/pf/coll ... index.html
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A-Commoner
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by A-Commoner »

What is an average student? The average ACT score in the nation is 20. Is this the type of student the OP is talking about? Does someone with an ACT of 20 get merit scholarships? My understanding of a merit scholarship is it is based on merit. Hence you must be above average. The premise of the OPs question makes it difficult to answer.

Our experience may not directly answer your question about the average student. My daughter’s ACT was 34, and she applied to mostly top 30 schools but also considered safeties within the top 100.

From my daughter’s recent experience applying to college, the most generous merit scholarships she got came from Grinnell in Iowa where she was offered their top scholarship. Grinnell is a very wealthy school, its endowment is among the largest per capita. Warren Buffet was a past endowment adviser. The college can afford to offer these scholarships.

Grinnell isn’t a slacker in academics either; its among the top 20 liberal arts colleges in the US. A friend of my daughter got rejected by Grinnell but accepted at Stanford. Our only knock with Grinnell is location; we have lived in the Midwest for a long time (my daughter since she was born), alternating between suburban Chicago and mostly rural Illinois. We have so wanted to get out of the rural Midwest already. So Grinnell wasn’t happening.

Then she also got significant scholarships from the Jesuit universities she applied to (Loyola U in Chicago, St Louis Univ). Please check these schools out, we liked them and my daughter would have been happy to attend them as well. While still in the Midwest, at least these universities are in major cities. The Jesuit schools are not in the tippy top in USNWR rankings but are still in the top 100. Their enrolled students’ ACTs range from 25-30. Decent, above average scores. These are colleges where somebody with the stats for HYPSM type schools can easily get merit scholarships, even full ride scholarships. The son of our friends whose ACT was 35 is now in Loyola Chicago on such a scholarship.

My daughter also got accepted at Univ of Notre Dame but didn’t get any scholarship. We could afford full pay for Notre Dame....great school. But it has the same points against it as Grinnell: remote and cold location.

In summary, the ABOVE AVERAGE student from upper middle class families do get significant merit scholarships. I don’t know about the average student though.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by WhyNotUs »

For average students in the west, all it requires is ability to carry a golf bag
https://www.wgaesf.org/site/c.dwJTKiO0J ... rships.htm
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by dogagility »

emlowe wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:46 pm I'm saving what I think to be around the costs for a UC system school.
That's a sound strategy when your kids are young; keep in mind college cost inflation which can be significant. You'll know a lot more about your kid's scholastic aptitude compared to others when they are in late middle school and have a good idea of the actual cost when they are soph/junior in HS.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by FireProof »

I'll assume average is average for upper middle class, not average overall, since average overall doesn't even go to college. So, say, 1200/1600 SAT, 3.6 GPA. That won't get into any schools that offer significant need-based grants to middle class kid (e.g. - I think Harvard offers some grants all the way up to 180k/year).

There would still be scholarships offered by some lower-ranked public schools to someone with these stats, but these are schools that many upper-middle class families might steer their kid away from. This page lists a number of schools that offer automatic scholarships to those with SAT scores as low as 1100 or even 1000 (and there are certainly more non-automatic scholarships at comparable schools) - see University of Arizona, U Mississippi, UNLV, etc. https://blog.prepscholar.com/guaranteed ... act-scores
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by dogagility »

A-Commoner wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:26 am What is an average student? The average ACT score in the nation is 20. Is this the type of student the OP is talking about?

My daughter’s ACT was 34.
On BH, I would bet the average son/daughter is not the average student across the nation. I would surmise most kiddos on parents of this board would gain entrance to their state flagship. Still, many (most?) might not get significant merit aid from their state flagship. I think total colleges costs today for most on this board would probably run between 90K - 140K for all four years (including inflation) for a sleep-away state flagship and good, but not great, private colleges. For Ivy-caliber colleges (assuming they even are admitted), the cost would be significantly more. Again for the "average" BH family.
Your daughter, on the other hand, is likely well above the average BH family daughter. :sharebeer
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dogagility
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by dogagility »

WhyNotUs wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:03 am For average students in the west, all it requires is ability to carry a golf bag
https://www.wgaesf.org/site/c.dwJTKiO0J ... rships.htm
Ha... love these specialized finds! :happy
Might work for people here, except for this requirement: "Applicants must clearly establish their need for financial assistance."
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teen persuasion
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by teen persuasion »

986racer wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:29 pm Short answer: no

Long answer: there are basically two ways to get "free" money for college.

1) Financial aid. This is purely need based, and if you are upper middle class, then the only way you would qualify would be to have multiple children in college at the same time. Something like 47% of AGI is expected to go to paying for college and 5.6% of any non-retirement accounts are also expected to go to paying for college. Let's take a hypothetical upper class family with 400K in a variety of savings accounts and a 200K income. The EFC (expected family contribution) would be somewhere around 116K (400K * 5.6% + 200K * 47%). Obviously this is more expensive than school for a single student but could be cheaper than two children both going to expensive private universities.
A portion of that $200k income is removed before a progressive rate up to 47% is applied. FICA paid, federal income tax paid, a state proxy rate for income/property/sales taxes paid, an "income protection amount" based on family size and number in college, and a working expense adjustment. So the adjusted income amount might be $200k - $15k -$25k - $16k - $25k -$4k = $115k ( for a family of 4, dual earners, 2 kids in college, NY). The assets are reduced by an "asset protection amount" of roughly $20k for parents about age 50, and 12% of the remainder are included assets: 12% of ($400k - $20k) = ~$45k.

As $115k + $45k = $160k the EFC calculation is ~$9k + 47%($160k - $33k) = ~$60k.

With 2 children in college, that is split between the students, for ~$30k each. So there'd be no "need" if cost is < $30k, but there would be "need" at a school costing more.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by 986racer »

teen persuasion wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:13 pm A portion of that $200k income is removed before a progressive rate up to 47% is applied. FICA paid, federal income tax paid, a state proxy rate for income/property/sales taxes paid, an "income protection amount" based on family size and number in college, and a working expense adjustment. So the adjusted income amount might be $200k - $15k -$25k - $16k - $25k -$4k = $115k ( for a family of 4, dual earners, 2 kids in college, NY). The assets are reduced by an "asset protection amount" of roughly $20k for parents about age 50, and 12% of the remainder are included assets: 12% of ($400k - $20k) = ~$45k.

As $115k + $45k = $160k the EFC calculation is ~$9k + 47%($160k - $33k) = ~$60k.

With 2 children in college, that is split between the students, for ~$30k each. So there'd be no "need" if cost is < $30k, but there would be "need" at a school costing more.
Fair enough. For a better estimate, I threw the sample numbers into FAFSA4caster and it came up with an EFC of 66009. The parameters were the following: family of 4 in NY, 1 child in college, 200K family income, 400K in savings/investments, parents over 50. The child had earnings of 4K and savings of $500.

Agreed that my original numbers were off, but it still stands that an upper middle class family is not getting any free financial aid unless they have multiple children in college at the same time.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by stoptothink »

staythecourse wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 am
staythecourse wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:20 pm
All famous. Some of the Ivies. Stanford and MIT. Two or three of the top liberal arts colleges. That is about it for "top tier" for me.

Maybe 10 total...
Yup. And, in my personal experience, ROI is off the charts. My son’s first year compensation out of school plus internships matches total full freight 4 year cost.

OP: I don’t mean this as snarky as it probably sounds, but break your heart, spend some of those few million on your kids’ college costs.
I don't think anyone is doubting going to Yale and going into finance will make you money (I believe that is correct for your child). The honest answer is folks in life will get paid based on their career choice. That simple. A Yale grad who is works in civil service is not going to make as much as doctor who immigrated from a 3rd world country.

So it is NOT the school, but the choice of career. How much are the art degree folks making coming out of Yale?

The question then becomes do the folks coming out of elite colleges have a higher chance of high paying careers vs. those that don't. That is a different argument all together.

Good luck.
So you mean my sister with an IVY undergrad and graduate degrees from Oxford and NYU, who makes less than all her siblings (including the two who didn't graduate high school), didn't get a good ROI even though apparently she was taught by a far better faculty?
I think you may have misunderstood my post or maybe directed to the poster I was responding to? All I was saying is any discussion of ROI does not have to do with simply college cost, but the field one chooses. Your example is a perfect example of that point. Of course, on a ROI your sister is not going to match up due to the career she chose.

Good luck.
I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by goodenyou »

About 240,000 students applied to try to get into just 8 Ivies. That doesn't include all the other private institutions that charge $50-70K per year today. A lot looking to be overcharged for sure. Not my cup of tea either, but great demand to be overcharged.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

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Nice!
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

goodenyou wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:49 pm About 240,000 students applied to try to get into just 8 Ivies. That doesn't include all the other private institutions that charge $50-70K per year today. A lot looking to be overcharged for sure. Not my cup of tea either, but great demand to be overcharged.
Apply yes, looking to get overcharged? Compared to what? There are what I call second and third tier schools which cost just as much but without the obvious and subtle benefits of being an actual Ivy. In any event, many of those who do apply to Ivies are likely seeking some to significant aid only to discover that it isn’t there or they would not get enough to justify the burden of taking out six figure loans for a degree with poor ROI. Yes, you can attend Ivy’s but if you select a major that lacks demand you may find yourself mired in debt for a very very long time.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by staythecourse »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 am
staythecourse wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:09 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:20 pm Yup. And, in my personal experience, ROI is off the charts. My son’s first year compensation out of school plus internships matches total full freight 4 year cost.

OP: I don’t mean this as snarky as it probably sounds, but break your heart, spend some of those few million on your kids’ college costs.
I don't think anyone is doubting going to Yale and going into finance will make you money (I believe that is correct for your child). The honest answer is folks in life will get paid based on their career choice. That simple. A Yale grad who is works in civil service is not going to make as much as doctor who immigrated from a 3rd world country.

So it is NOT the school, but the choice of career. How much are the art degree folks making coming out of Yale?

The question then becomes do the folks coming out of elite colleges have a higher chance of high paying careers vs. those that don't. That is a different argument all together.

Good luck.
So you mean my sister with an IVY undergrad and graduate degrees from Oxford and NYU, who makes less than all her siblings (including the two who didn't graduate high school), didn't get a good ROI even though apparently she was taught by a far better faculty?
I think you may have misunderstood my post or maybe directed to the poster I was responding to? All I was saying is any discussion of ROI does not have to do with simply college cost, but the field one chooses. Your example is a perfect example of that point. Of course, on a ROI your sister is not going to match up due to the career she chose.

Good luck.
I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by jminv »

Yes, merit scholarships. Assuming no other non-test/academic factors that would make child's profile stand out, applying to a school where child is considered top flyer can lead to merit scholarships particularly in engineering and science schools.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by munemaker »

jminv wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:54 pm Yes, merit scholarships. Assuming no other non-test/academic factors that would make child's profile stand out, applying to a school where child is considered top flyer can lead to merit scholarships particularly in engineering and science schools.
Average kids can get merit scholarships?
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by goodenyou »

munemaker wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:15 pm
jminv wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:54 pm Yes, merit scholarships. Assuming no other non-test/academic factors that would make child's profile stand out, applying to a school where child is considered top flyer can lead to merit scholarships particularly in engineering and science schools.
Average kids can get merit scholarships?
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by stoptothink »

staythecourse wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 am
staythecourse wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:09 pm

I don't think anyone is doubting going to Yale and going into finance will make you money (I believe that is correct for your child). The honest answer is folks in life will get paid based on their career choice. That simple. A Yale grad who is works in civil service is not going to make as much as doctor who immigrated from a 3rd world country.

So it is NOT the school, but the choice of career. How much are the art degree folks making coming out of Yale?

The question then becomes do the folks coming out of elite colleges have a higher chance of high paying careers vs. those that don't. That is a different argument all together.

Good luck.
So you mean my sister with an IVY undergrad and graduate degrees from Oxford and NYU, who makes less than all her siblings (including the two who didn't graduate high school), didn't get a good ROI even though apparently she was taught by a far better faculty?
I think you may have misunderstood my post or maybe directed to the poster I was responding to? All I was saying is any discussion of ROI does not have to do with simply college cost, but the field one chooses. Your example is a perfect example of that point. Of course, on a ROI your sister is not going to match up due to the career she chose.

Good luck.
I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
I'm surrounded by way too many people on a daily basis, including members of my own family and my work staff, who have (unsuccessfully) tried to get by impressing others with the name on their diploma to take much of the talk seriously. FWIW, I started out at one of the top public universities in the world, on nearly a full merit scholarship but hoping to earn a football scholarship to be covered full freight. I transferred after 2yrs to a lesser known school who offered me a full athletic scholarship because I couldn't continue cash-flowing living costs and I actually thought my experience was better at lesser known U, and I didn't have to deal with pretentious attitudes all day. That experience was a big reason I ended up going to a lesser known grad school, instead of the Ivy I was also accepted to but who didn't offer as good of a financial package.

To answer someone else's question: I am all for giving my children every possible advantage, but if you think paying up to 5x more for a college education to attend one of the "elites" provides an advantage with a tangible ROI, we simply don't agree. If the money works, of course go for the "name school", but otherwise I'm counseling my own kids to take advantage of the cheapest university education in the country, literally in their backyard. If they want that "college experience", hey, good luck figuring out how to pay for it.
A-Commoner
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:17 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by A-Commoner »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am
staythecourse wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 am

So you mean my sister with an IVY undergrad and graduate degrees from Oxford and NYU, who makes less than all her siblings (including the two who didn't graduate high school), didn't get a good ROI even though apparently she was taught by a far better faculty?
I think you may have misunderstood my post or maybe directed to the poster I was responding to? All I was saying is any discussion of ROI does not have to do with simply college cost, but the field one chooses. Your example is a perfect example of that point. Of course, on a ROI your sister is not going to match up due to the career she chose.

Good luck.
I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
I'm surrounded by way too many people on a daily basis, including members of my own family and my work staff, who have (unsuccessfully) tried to get by impressing others with the name on their diploma to take much of the talk seriously. FWIW, I started out at one of the top public universities in the world, on nearly a full merit scholarship but hoping to earn a football scholarship to be covered full freight. I transferred after 2yrs to a lesser known school who offered me a full athletic scholarship because I couldn't continue cash-flowing living costs and I actually thought my experience was better at lesser known U, and I didn't have to deal with pretentious attitudes all day. That experience was a big reason I ended up going to a lesser known grad school, instead of the Ivy I was also accepted to but who didn't offer as good of a financial package.

To answer someone else's question: I am all for giving my children every possible advantage, but if you think paying up to 5x more for a college education to attend one of the "elites" provides an advantage with a tangible ROI, we simply don't agree. If the money works, of course go for the "name school", but otherwise I'm counseling my own kids to take advantage of the cheapest university education in the country, literally in their backyard. If they want that "college experience", hey, good luck figuring out how to pay for it.
In terms of ROI of education, many organizations have looked into this. One such study is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/higher-educ ... loyability

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ting-a-job

Please link to the actual study if you want to know the methodology behind it.

This is the most recent survey by QS that ranks colleges in terms of ROI (defined as employability and incomes). To me, this is a more valid means of determining ROI than citing personal anecdotes. Citing personal anecdotes is fine as a starting point for discussion. But it has to go beyond that.
FireProof
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by FireProof »

A-Commoner wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am
staythecourse wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:11 am

I think you may have misunderstood my post or maybe directed to the poster I was responding to? All I was saying is any discussion of ROI does not have to do with simply college cost, but the field one chooses. Your example is a perfect example of that point. Of course, on a ROI your sister is not going to match up due to the career she chose.

Good luck.
I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
I'm surrounded by way too many people on a daily basis, including members of my own family and my work staff, who have (unsuccessfully) tried to get by impressing others with the name on their diploma to take much of the talk seriously. FWIW, I started out at one of the top public universities in the world, on nearly a full merit scholarship but hoping to earn a football scholarship to be covered full freight. I transferred after 2yrs to a lesser known school who offered me a full athletic scholarship because I couldn't continue cash-flowing living costs and I actually thought my experience was better at lesser known U, and I didn't have to deal with pretentious attitudes all day. That experience was a big reason I ended up going to a lesser known grad school, instead of the Ivy I was also accepted to but who didn't offer as good of a financial package.

To answer someone else's question: I am all for giving my children every possible advantage, but if you think paying up to 5x more for a college education to attend one of the "elites" provides an advantage with a tangible ROI, we simply don't agree. If the money works, of course go for the "name school", but otherwise I'm counseling my own kids to take advantage of the cheapest university education in the country, literally in their backyard. If they want that "college experience", hey, good luck figuring out how to pay for it.
In terms of ROI of education, many organizations have looked into this. One such study is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/higher-educ ... loyability

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ting-a-job

Please link to the actual study if you want to know the methodology behind it.

This is the most recent survey by QS that ranks colleges in terms of ROI (defined as employability and incomes). To me, this is a more valid means of determining ROI than citing personal anecdotes. Citing personal anecdotes is fine as a starting point for discussion. But it has to go beyond that.

Once you control for SAT, high school grades, parental income and education, etc., the difference in outcomes becomes rather minor, almost certainly not enough to justify a far higher cost purely from a financial perspective. And I recall a study that looked at the outcomes of people who were admitted to elite universities, but chose not to attend, and found them almost identical to those who actually attended those universities (with the exception, I think, of African Americans, who did see a significant boost).
User avatar
sunny_socal
Posts: 2297
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by sunny_socal »

TLDR

My kids are "average" and we're "upper middle class." Don't expect to get a penny from anyone. Our plan is to put the kids into community college for a couple years followed by a state college for a couple more. If they want a MS they can get their first employer to pay for it and take classes at night.

And guess what? They'll still have those precious pieces of paper. It's the person and their attitude that matters the most, not the school or the degree.
GreenGrowTheDollars
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:09 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by GreenGrowTheDollars »

SimonJester wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:59 pm
snowman wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:36 pm
SimonJester wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:05 pmThe IRS data retrieval tool did not work to pull in my data so I had to manually enter my 1040 info. I am not sure if using the IRS DRT if the fields come in shown online or not.
Starting with 2018-2019 FA cycle, after many problems in the past, including major security breach, IRS DRT does not show values anymore, it just says "Transferred from the IRS". The same is shown in SAR. However, "Income earned from work" for each parent has to be entered manually (does not transfer), and the same goes for all assets. So there really isn't much hiding even you transfer data from the IRS.
I wonder if the IRS DRT tool is blocked by having a security freeze? I know creating an online IRS account is. I dont know why but we could never get it to work and gave up after multiple attempts...
Yes. DRT will never work if you have a security freeze on your account. In this case, enter the values manually AND request a tax transcript from the IRS. Keep it, and when the college(s) ask you for verification information, send the college a copy along with whatever other docs they want. (Frequently W-2 copies.)

And...if you have kids who need to file tax returns, have them staple their W-2 forms to the printed tax return and toss it in a FAFSA file. At least a third of the kids I see don't keep their W-2 forms after filing taxes and don't have a printed copy of their tax return -- because "it's on the web" -- all of which is fine until a college requires it for verification. :oops: Rant over.
SimonJester
Posts: 2228
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by SimonJester »

GreenGrowTheDollars wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:39 am
SimonJester wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:59 pm
SimonJester wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:05 pmThe IRS data retrieval tool did not work to pull in my data so I had to manually enter my 1040 info. I am not sure if using the IRS DRT if the fields come in shown online or not.
I wonder if the IRS DRT tool is blocked by having a security freeze? I know creating an online IRS account is. I dont know why but we could never get it to work and gave up after multiple attempts...
Yes. DRT will never work if you have a security freeze on your account. In this case, enter the values manually AND request a tax transcript from the IRS. Keep it, and when the college(s) ask you for verification information, send the college a copy along with whatever other docs they want. (Frequently W-2 copies.)

And...if you have kids who need to file tax returns, have them staple their W-2 forms to the printed tax return and toss it in a FAFSA file. At least a third of the kids I see don't keep their W-2 forms after filing taxes and don't have a printed copy of their tax return -- because "it's on the web" -- all of which is fine until a college requires it for verification. :oops: Rant over.

Ok great to know, once the law making Security freezes / thaws free goies into effect I will just unfreeze and refreeze the reports...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Rupert
Posts: 4122
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:01 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by Rupert »

FYI: The New York Times has an interesting article on this topic this morning called "Top Colleges are Cheaper Than You Think (Unless You're Rich)." Here's a link: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ght-region
stoptothink
Posts: 8726
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by stoptothink »

FireProof wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm
A-Commoner wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am
staythecourse wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm

I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
I'm surrounded by way too many people on a daily basis, including members of my own family and my work staff, who have (unsuccessfully) tried to get by impressing others with the name on their diploma to take much of the talk seriously. FWIW, I started out at one of the top public universities in the world, on nearly a full merit scholarship but hoping to earn a football scholarship to be covered full freight. I transferred after 2yrs to a lesser known school who offered me a full athletic scholarship because I couldn't continue cash-flowing living costs and I actually thought my experience was better at lesser known U, and I didn't have to deal with pretentious attitudes all day. That experience was a big reason I ended up going to a lesser known grad school, instead of the Ivy I was also accepted to but who didn't offer as good of a financial package.

To answer someone else's question: I am all for giving my children every possible advantage, but if you think paying up to 5x more for a college education to attend one of the "elites" provides an advantage with a tangible ROI, we simply don't agree. If the money works, of course go for the "name school", but otherwise I'm counseling my own kids to take advantage of the cheapest university education in the country, literally in their backyard. If they want that "college experience", hey, good luck figuring out how to pay for it.
In terms of ROI of education, many organizations have looked into this. One such study is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/higher-educ ... loyability

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ting-a-job

Please link to the actual study if you want to know the methodology behind it.

This is the most recent survey by QS that ranks colleges in terms of ROI (defined as employability and incomes). To me, this is a more valid means of determining ROI than citing personal anecdotes. Citing personal anecdotes is fine as a starting point for discussion. But it has to go beyond that.

Once you control for SAT, high school grades, parental income and education, etc., the difference in outcomes becomes rather minor, almost certainly not enough to justify a far higher cost purely from a financial perspective. And I recall a study that looked at the outcomes of people who were admitted to elite universities, but chose not to attend, and found them almost identical to those who actually attended those universities (with the exception, I think, of African Americans, who did see a significant boost).
Exactly. As a regularly published scientist myself, the actual "studies" on this topic are hard to generalize because there are a lot of factors that aren't controlled for. As you said, when things like SAT, high school grades, parental income and education, etc., are controlled for, the difference in outcomes becomes rather minor. I can say one thing with absolute certainty: I don't know a single very smart individual who also combined that inherent cognitive ability with a strong work ethic, who limited their outcomes professionally because they chose a lesser known university over a more "elite" one (regardless of the reason) - especially if it is for undergrad.
smitcat
Posts: 6998
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by smitcat »

stoptothink wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:31 am
FireProof wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:18 pm
A-Commoner wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:22 pm
stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am
staythecourse wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
I'm surrounded by way too many people on a daily basis, including members of my own family and my work staff, who have (unsuccessfully) tried to get by impressing others with the name on their diploma to take much of the talk seriously. FWIW, I started out at one of the top public universities in the world, on nearly a full merit scholarship but hoping to earn a football scholarship to be covered full freight. I transferred after 2yrs to a lesser known school who offered me a full athletic scholarship because I couldn't continue cash-flowing living costs and I actually thought my experience was better at lesser known U, and I didn't have to deal with pretentious attitudes all day. That experience was a big reason I ended up going to a lesser known grad school, instead of the Ivy I was also accepted to but who didn't offer as good of a financial package.

To answer someone else's question: I am all for giving my children every possible advantage, but if you think paying up to 5x more for a college education to attend one of the "elites" provides an advantage with a tangible ROI, we simply don't agree. If the money works, of course go for the "name school", but otherwise I'm counseling my own kids to take advantage of the cheapest university education in the country, literally in their backyard. If they want that "college experience", hey, good luck figuring out how to pay for it.
In terms of ROI of education, many organizations have looked into this. One such study is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/higher-educ ... loyability

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... ting-a-job

Please link to the actual study if you want to know the methodology behind it.

This is the most recent survey by QS that ranks colleges in terms of ROI (defined as employability and incomes). To me, this is a more valid means of determining ROI than citing personal anecdotes. Citing personal anecdotes is fine as a starting point for discussion. But it has to go beyond that.

Once you control for SAT, high school grades, parental income and education, etc., the difference in outcomes becomes rather minor, almost certainly not enough to justify a far higher cost purely from a financial perspective. And I recall a study that looked at the outcomes of people who were admitted to elite universities, but chose not to attend, and found them almost identical to those who actually attended those universities (with the exception, I think, of African Americans, who did see a significant boost).
Exactly. As a regularly published scientist myself, the actual "studies" on this topic are hard to generalize because there are a lot of factors that aren't controlled for. As you said, when things like SAT, high school grades, parental income and education, etc., are controlled for, the difference in outcomes becomes rather minor. I can say one thing with absolute certainty: I don't know a single very smart individual who also combined that inherent cognitive ability with a strong work ethic, who limited their outcomes professionally because they chose a lesser known university over a more "elite" one (regardless of the reason) - especially if it is for undergrad.
" I can say one thing with absolute certainty: I don't know a single very smart individual who also combined that inherent cognitive ability with a strong work ethic, who limited their outcomes professionally because they chose a lesser known university over a more "elite" one (regardless of the reason) - especially if it is for undergrad."

This is an accurate and concise summary which I can completely agree with after being in business for 30+ years.
KlangFool
Posts: 19109
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by KlangFool »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am
staythecourse wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:36 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:28 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:11 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:49 am

So you mean my sister with an IVY undergrad and graduate degrees from Oxford and NYU, who makes less than all her siblings (including the two who didn't graduate high school), didn't get a good ROI even though apparently she was taught by a far better faculty?
I think you may have misunderstood my post or maybe directed to the poster I was responding to? All I was saying is any discussion of ROI does not have to do with simply college cost, but the field one chooses. Your example is a perfect example of that point. Of course, on a ROI your sister is not going to match up due to the career she chose.

Good luck.
I was facetiously agreeing with you. I apologize that my sarcasm made that unclear. The elitism regarding university education is one of my major pet peeves when it comes to this particular board. I learn more and more each day that there are brilliant people that can be found on every college campus nationwide.
Sorry, missed that. I am in the same camp as you. Our extended family has gotten into every elite college and graduate program in the country. There is exactly ONE of those family members who did exceptionally well. No surprise he went into finance which of course pays very well. So it is hard to discern if his success was his pedigree or his career choice or both. All I can say is we have PLENTY of top 3 MBA folks in our family who came from elite colleges (HYPS+ MIT) who did nothing extraordinary in their lives. Heck, the richest folks I know came from good, but not elite schools who went into high paying careers and worked HARD to advance after they started their careers.

So guess I am biased the other way.

Good luck.

p.s. I did my residency and fellowship at Harvard and can tell you the adage used there was the only folks impressed with Harvard who folks who never went and those who never left. After spending time there I agree with that statement.
I'm surrounded by way too many people on a daily basis, including members of my own family and my work staff, who have (unsuccessfully) tried to get by impressing others with the name on their diploma to take much of the talk seriously. FWIW, I started out at one of the top public universities in the world, on nearly a full merit scholarship but hoping to earn a football scholarship to be covered full freight. I transferred after 2yrs to a lesser known school who offered me a full athletic scholarship because I couldn't continue cash-flowing living costs and I actually thought my experience was better at lesser known U, and I didn't have to deal with pretentious attitudes all day. That experience was a big reason I ended up going to a lesser known grad school, instead of the Ivy I was also accepted to but who didn't offer as good of a financial package.

To answer someone else's question: I am all for giving my children every possible advantage, but if you think paying up to 5x more for a college education to attend one of the "elites" provides an advantage with a tangible ROI, we simply don't agree. If the money works, of course go for the "name school", but otherwise I'm counseling my own kids to take advantage of the cheapest university education in the country, literally in their backyard. If they want that "college experience", hey, good luck figuring out how to pay for it.
+1,000.

KlangFool
ks289
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by ks289 »

The topic of attending highly selective colleges vs less selective colleges is understandably controversial and influenced by personal biases. However, I haven't seen anybody post the opinion that talented individuals CANNOT be successful attending a lesser school, but somehow this seems to be the strawman argument that is continually being refuted. Furthermore, the ROI discussion is pertinent to most families, but less crucial to those that would qualify for substantial aid or that would be able to afford the costs.

One study that has been mentioned in other threads which I found to be very interesting is this 2014 paper (abstract has link to full study) which studied the impact of undergraduate institution on future earnings (attempting to account for ability and family background).

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=2473238

"Although Dale and Krueger’s research (2002, 2014) is widely cited as evidence that
earnings are not affected by selectivity of undergraduate college once individual characteristics
are accounted for, their research is based on data from students at a limited number of highly
selective colleges and universities. This means that those students who were admitted to more
selective schools than they ultimately entered were still attendees (and usually graduates) of
highly selective institutions, and does not mean that the same individual would have been
equally successful had they instead attended a nonselective college
.
The relation between family background in influencing undergraduate institution status,
and undergraduate institutional status in influencing post-baccalaureate outcomes, implies that
‘undermatching’ as identified by Hoxby and Avery (2013), Dillon and Smith (2013) and others,
may have permanent consequences if high ability students who do not attend elite institutions for
their bachelor’s degree are unable to overcome their initial placement by moving up to an elite
graduate or professional school for a post-baccalaureate degree. With greater competition for the
limited slots in highly selective colleges combined with an increase in the return to graduating
from a highly selective college (Hoxby 2009), initial college placement may become even more
important in determining the long-run career trajectory
."
balbrec2
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pm

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by balbrec2 »

Depending on where you are applying, average students likely will receive no free money.
Scholarships are given based on high achievement for well rounded students.
Your socio-economic status precludes need based funding as well. If you apply where average stands out
you may have a chance. Otherwise, best you can hope for is federal loans. good luck!
OnTrack2020
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:24 am

Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by OnTrack2020 »

cockersx3 wrote: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:39 am
livesoft wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:35 pm @cockersx3, My kids know our approximate net worth which has grown since the last FAFSA went in. I think their reaction was "Whatever, let me go back to watching TV and texting." Was that kind of your question of "how would this work"?

They know how the world works and understand why some of their friends' families have lots more money than we do and why some have lots less money and why some have about the same. I never worried about them knowing about our net worth nor incomes. Nothing to dread.

Also, my kids are adults now with their college degrees. They ask me for investing and tax help about once a year which means we talk financial stuff occasionally. Do you talk to your kids now about financial stuff? I think you should if you don't.
Thanks for the response. Yes, we talk about financial stiff but in more general terms. My kids know that the cars we drive are somewhat older relative to their friends' parents, and that we DIY a lot more than peers, go on less extravagant vacations, etc. We talk about it, and we discuss why we do what we do - that just because we can spend money on something does not necessarily mean that we should, and that in our case we choose to spend money on things that we value. We also have discussed our plans to retire relatively early, which in our mind partly the result of those behaviors. I have also shared stories with them about situations at work in which I was able to stand up for myself, partly because of the backup options that we have created for ourselves. I think the message has sunk in. The kids have turned into savers themselves - oldest recently surpassed 4 figures in her savings account (all from birthdays, mowing lawns, etc) which is nice to see.

That said, we have not shared exact net work figures with them. Our original intention was to share with them after they have launched as adults. My fear is that sharing now would make it all-too-easy for them to mention the seven-figure net worth to someone else, which would make for awkward conversations for everyone. Probably an overblown fear based on the experiences shared by you and other posters, but still something about which we are concerned. Since it is apparently a required part of the FAFSA process, and since there is conflicting information on whether the application is consistently required for non-need-based aid, we may end up having to change our stance on this....
I have not read through a lot of the responses, but in regards to the FAFSA, you only will list your taxable accounts, not the value of vehicles, house, or retirement accounts.

Where your child may possibly receive the "free" money is through scholarships, and that will be through the child having very good grades with a high GPA and doing well on the ACT. Am thinking ACT score was around 33 for full tuition paid at state school in our state.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by stoptothink »

Pretty comprehensive review of my personal thoughts on the matter. IMO, the most pertinent statement:

"The Gotta-Get-Ins can no longer claim to be the more or less exclusive gatekeepers to graduate school. Once, it was assumed that an elite-college undergraduate degree was required for admission to a top law or medical program. No more: 61 percent of new students at Harvard Law School last year had received their bachelor’s degrees outside the Ivy League. “Every year I have someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says. For Looking Beyond the Ivy League, Pope analyzed eight consecutive sets of scores on the medical-school aptitude test. Caltech produced the highest-scoring students, but Carleton outdid Harvard, Muhlenberg topped Dartmouth, and Ohio Wesleyan finished ahead of Berkeley..."

I have anecdotes for days regarding this, including my own life story.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by TomatoTomahto »

balbrec2 wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:58 am Scholarships are given based on high achievement for well rounded students.
I agree with the first half of your statement, but I’ve seen scholarships go to “pointy” students also, especially if their pointiness comes from math/science.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by ks289 »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:39 am
Pretty comprehensive review of my personal thoughts on the matter. IMO, the most pertinent statement:

"The Gotta-Get-Ins can no longer claim to be the more or less exclusive gatekeepers to graduate school. Once, it was assumed that an elite-college undergraduate degree was required for admission to a top law or medical program. No more: 61 percent of new students at Harvard Law School last year had received their bachelor’s degrees outside the Ivy League. “Every year I have someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says. For Looking Beyond the Ivy League, Pope analyzed eight consecutive sets of scores on the medical-school aptitude test. Caltech produced the highest-scoring students, but Carleton outdid Harvard, Muhlenberg topped Dartmouth, and Ohio Wesleyan finished ahead of Berkeley..."

I have anecdotes for days regarding this, including my own life story.
I agree with you more than you realize. I don't think I would want my son to attend an Ivy League school (assuming he could actually get in) for a variety of reasons, but I see the benefit for certain students.

Personally, Pope's gatekeeper argument is not very compelling. His Harvard Law numbers actually bolster the case for attending a selective school. My medical school class (from 20+ years ago) also had about 40% from Ivy League schools (as mentioned for Harvard Law). That's actually a huge percentage since we haven't even counted Stanford, MIT, Duke, UMichigan, Cal, Johns Hopkins, or the top liberal arts colleges. The idea that attending an Ivy League school GUARANTEES a top graduate school is a joke. Nobody in this day and age should believe that.

Moreover, are you sure your personal thoughts match up to Loren Pope's contentions?

His book and organization advocate for small, selective, liberal arts schools-not large universities with 30,000 undergraduates. His Myth #4 and chapter "Why Small is Best" in his book specifically criticizes big universities for large class sizes, focus on research, and poor access to courses and faculty. The small schools he mentioned for high MCAT scores are also pretty expensive (tuition $50,000+), and some including Carleton do NOT offer merit scholarships.

This is actually where I sort of agree with Pope and could see a good fit with my kids --schools with very small class sizes (500 or so) with a dedication to undergraduate education.

Good luck.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by randomguy »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:39 am ve someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says.
So 39% of the class comes from 8 schools and 61% comes from 2600 schools. I would say that is a pretty clear indication of how important undergrad is.:) I bet if you looked at the percentage from top 25/50 schools (so you get places like stanford and the top end states like UVA, Berkley, UM) and you would rapidly see the percentage of get to 80-90%. Now Harvard law isn't the end all of life accomplishments.

As other people have pointed out you have to look at your options. If I was an undergrad doing computer science and my choices were spend 250k on stanford or 120k at UVA, UVA is a no brainer. 250k for stanford or 80k for university of south Dakota computer science? Might pay for stanford. Pretty much every field has some state schools that are top 10 (and I am not convinced the difference between 10 and 1 is that noticeable compare to say 10 and 100) but you might not live in that state. For example my small state school didn't even offer my major.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by goodenyou »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:27 am
balbrec2 wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:58 am Scholarships are given based on high achievement for well rounded students.
I agree with the first half of your statement, but I’ve seen scholarships go to “pointy” students also, especially if their pointiness comes from math/science.
In my experience, depth is much more important than "roundedness". I think "well-rounded" is great in real-life and has been long advised to help admissions in the past, but it not as much of an asset on college admission applications as having extreme depth and success in a particular area. Being very unique is where it's at these days.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" | “Do you know how to make a rain dance work? Dance until it rains”
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by wfrobinette »

novemberrain wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:11 pm Hello,

Assumptions
1. my kids grow up to be average " students.
2. We are an upper middle class family when my kids apply for college (i.e. a few million dollar net worth).
3. Have some 529 balances. Say $75k each kid

Do kids like these typically get any "free" money from colleges or any other organizations ?
BTW a few million in NW is upper class. Counting Home equity a 45 to 49 yo with a NW > than 982k is more than 88% of others. at 2.1M its in the 95% range. Upper middle ends at 747k

You may not be ultra wealthy but you aren't anywhere near the middle with a NW that high.

With a NW like that I"d plan on paying sticker with "average" students.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by stoptothink »

randomguy wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:56 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:39 am ve someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says.
So 39% of the class comes from 8 schools and 61% comes from 2600 schools. I would say that is a pretty clear indication of how important undergrad is.:) I bet if you looked at the percentage from top 25/50 schools (so you get places like stanford and the top end states like UVA, Berkley, UM) and you would rapidly see the percentage of get to 80-90%. Now Harvard law isn't the end all of life accomplishments.

As other people have pointed out you have to look at your options. If I was an undergrad doing computer science and my choices were spend 250k on stanford or 120k at UVA, UVA is a no brainer. 250k for stanford or 80k for university of south Dakota computer science? Might pay for stanford. Pretty much every field has some state schools that are top 10 (and I am not convinced the difference between 10 and 1 is that noticeable compare to say 10 and 100) but you might not live in that state. For example my small state school didn't even offer my major.
I actually don't disagree with you, at all. The bottom-line is that if you are smart and hard-working, it simply doesn't matter much (if at all). The cream of the crop at no-name schools will get into top grad programs and will be successful professionally.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by wfrobinette »

goodenyou wrote: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:26 pm In 18 years, a college degree could cost $500,000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/17/in-18-y ... 00000.html

I wonder what the projections were 18 years ago. I wonder if they were close to $250,000-$300,000.

Parents need to save a lot if they want to insulate their kids from crushing debt.
No one pays sticker at a private college and most cases not even at a public college. Anyone paying 250k to 300k today for a bachelors degree is not too bright and would probably buy that ocean front property I have to sell in AZ. There is not a single undergraduate school in the world worth that amount of coin. None! In 90%(that's a made up number and likely higher) of the cases it's less about the institution and more about the intelligence , drive and capability of the student that determines a successful long term outcome. My dad and I are proof of this and I'm sure there are many more on the forum that will give credence to my statement. You either have or you don't and no institution is going to change that.


Tuition can't rise at that rate forever and schools will soon realize that luxury dorms(UKy has dorms with private bedrooms, kitchenettes and granite counter-tops) and new buildings won't be appealing at any price.

The federal student loan program is at fault for tuition rising at this rate and has led to what I mention above about new buildings and luxury dorms. The program will not sustain itself at this rate as defaults reach record highs. Schools will have to lower prices.

The online education will dominate the landscape in the years to come which will put pressure on the B&M to lower costs. I can learn as much as I want for free(or nearly free) on Coursera and be just as qualified as one that spent 150k getting a piece of paper. There is a new Free MBA program now available online. Sure it's not AACSB(sp) accredited but that accrediting body protects the "old school" establishment.


Just my 0.02
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by wfrobinette »

randomguy wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:56 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:39 am ve someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says.
So 39% of the class comes from 8 schools and 61% comes from 2600 schools. I would say that is a pretty clear indication of how important undergrad is.:) I bet if you looked at the percentage from top 25/50 schools (so you get places like stanford and the top end states like UVA, Berkley, UM) and you would rapidly see the percentage of get to 80-90%. Now Harvard law isn't the end all of life accomplishments.

As other people have pointed out you have to look at your options. If I was an undergrad doing computer science and my choices were spend 250k on stanford or 120k at UVA, UVA is a no brainer. 250k for stanford or 80k for university of south Dakota computer science? Might pay for stanford. Pretty much every field has some state schools that are top 10 (and I am not convinced the difference between 10 and 1 is that noticeable compare to say 10 and 100) but you might not live in that state. For example my small state school didn't even offer my major.
I wouldn't pay the 250 for Stanford over USD for an undergrad CS degree. Master's in a heartbeat.
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Re: Do average kids from upper middle class families get any free college money (Scholarships / non-repayable grants etc

Post by wfrobinette »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:39 am
Pretty comprehensive review of my personal thoughts on the matter. IMO, the most pertinent statement:

"The Gotta-Get-Ins can no longer claim to be the more or less exclusive gatekeepers to graduate school. Once, it was assumed that an elite-college undergraduate degree was required for admission to a top law or medical program. No more: 61 percent of new students at Harvard Law School last year had received their bachelor’s degrees outside the Ivy League. “Every year I have someone who went to Harvard College but can’t get into Harvard Law, plus someone who went to the University of Maryland and does get into Harvard Law,” Shirley Levin says. For Looking Beyond the Ivy League, Pope analyzed eight consecutive sets of scores on the medical-school aptitude test. Caltech produced the highest-scoring students, but Carleton outdid Harvard, Muhlenberg topped Dartmouth, and Ohio Wesleyan finished ahead of Berkeley..."

I have anecdotes for days regarding this, including my own life story.
Me too! As was about to tell it but shortened my post to it's more about the individual than the undergrad school when it comes to long-term success.
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