Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

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Topic Author
TRC
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Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TRC »

Hi Everyone,

I'm part of a small 4 unit condo association. My unit is mainly a summer rental. We had our annual meeting and one of the owners recently encountered a back-up in their unit's septic line. They had to call in a plumber to snake the line and clean out the obstruction. The obstruction of course was outside the condo, underneath the driveway in the septic line before it enters the town sewer. The bill was ~$1,000 and they are claiming the association should pay for this. My opinion is that this is a plumbing issue caused by improper things being flushed down the toilet. The owner disagrees and is kind of making a stink about this.

Thoughts?

TRC
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ResearchMed
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by ResearchMed »

TRC wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:01 pm Hi Everyone,

I'm part of a small 4 unit condo association. My unit is mainly a summer rental. We had our annual meeting and one of the owners recently encountered a back-up in their unit's septic line. They had to call in a plumber to snake the line and clean out the obstruction. The obstruction of course was outside the condo, underneath the driveway in the septic line before it enters the town sewer. The bill was ~$1,000 and they are claiming the association should pay for this. My opinion is that this is a plumbing issue caused by improper things being flushed down the toilet. The owner disagrees and is kind of making a stink about this.

Thoughts?

TRC
What do the condo docs say about maintenance/repair "outside the walls" of each unit?
There might be plumbing/septic specific details...?

RM
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Topic Author
TRC
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TRC »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:09 pm
TRC wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:01 pm Hi Everyone,

I'm part of a small 4 unit condo association. My unit is mainly a summer rental. We had our annual meeting and one of the owners recently encountered a back-up in their unit's septic line. They had to call in a plumber to snake the line and clean out the obstruction. The obstruction of course was outside the condo, underneath the driveway in the septic line before it enters the town sewer. The bill was ~$1,000 and they are claiming the association should pay for this. My opinion is that this is a plumbing issue caused by improper things being flushed down the toilet. The owner disagrees and is kind of making a stink about this.

Thoughts?

TRC
What do the condo docs say about maintenance/repair "outside the walls" of each unit?
There might be plumbing/septic specific details...?

RM
It's pretty vague. The bylaws state:

"Restoration. Damage to or destruction of the Building shall be promptly repaired and restored by the Association in accordance with the provisions of Article IX of the Declaration and Sections 1603‑113(e) and (h) of the Act. The Executive Board shall be responsible for accomplishing the full repair or reconstruction which shall be paid out of the Common Expense fund. The disbursement of funds for such repair or reconstruction shall, at the option of the Executive Board, be made only as the work progresses upon approval of a qualified architect who shall have furnished a description satisfactory to the Executive Board of the costs involved and the services and materials to be furnished by the contractors, subcontractors and materialmen. Unit Owners may apply the proceeds from their individual property insurance policies, if any, to the share of such Common Expense as may be assessed to them. The Executive Board shall be responsible for restoring the Property only to substantially the same condition as it was immediately prior to the damage, and each Unit Owner shall personally assume the additional expense of any improvements to his Unit which he desires to restore it beyond such condition. If any physical changes are made to any restored Unit or the Common Elements, or any combination of them, which renders inaccurate the Plats and Plans which are then of record, the Executive Board shall record amended Plats and Plans showing such changes."
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Pajamas
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by Pajamas »

Probably the association but read the documents. There is nothing in any of your paperwork except what you quoted above?

Normally plumbing issues beyond the fixture connections at the wall and floor are the association's responsibility unless they were altered by the owner during remodeling.

It's similar to what your insurance covers vs. the association's insurance, interior finish of the wall and everything inside the unit is your responsibility, everything outside of that is the association's responsibility. Usually doors and windows and original plumbing lines are the association's responsibility. Sounds like the clogged pipe was outside of the unit.
Topic Author
TRC
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TRC »

Pajamas wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:25 pm Probably the association but read the documents. There is nothing in any of your paperwork except what you quoted above?

Normally plumbing issues beyond the fixture connections at the wall and floor are the association's responsibility unless they were altered by the owner during remodeling.

It's similar to what your insurance covers vs. the association's insurance, interior finish of the wall and everything inside the unit is your responsibility, everything outside of that is the association's responsibility. Usually doors and windows and original plumbing lines are the association's responsibility. Sounds like the clogged pipe was outside of the unit.
Thanks. The bi-laws state a lot more, but that's the only section pertinent to repairs.

I guess the part we're struggling with is that this seems like owner's negligence and misuse that caused the issue. Additionally, the owner went ahead with the plumber without getting consent from the other owners (and she got extremely ripped off by paying $1,000 to have a line snaked).
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Pajamas
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by Pajamas »

There has to be something that describes the common property as opposed to the individual property.

Was it against the rules for the owner to act individually and not get multiple bids or something?

Your association should have rules in place for routine issues such as this and consequences for not following the rules. If not, put them in place.
BobTexas
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by BobTexas »

I'm on the board at my HOA. We (HOA board) usually manage repairs ourselves. In rare cases where we don't, we won't reimburse for repairs unless we pre-approve it
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ResearchMed
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by ResearchMed »

Pajamas wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:45 pm There has to be something that describes the common property as opposed to the individual property.

Was it against the rules for the owner to act individually and not get multiple bids or something?

Your association should have rules in place for routine issues such as this and consequences for not following the rules. If not, put them in place.
There can be times, such as backed up septic, when getting multiple bids just isn't practical.
And that's when it's nice to have a known plumber (or other vendor) on call, rather than needing to "take anyone who can do the job at any quoted price".

How bad was the situation?
If the septic was backing up and plumbing was unusable...?

RM
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Topic Author
TRC
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TRC »

Pajamas wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:45 pm There has to be something that describes the common property as opposed to the individual property.

Was it against the rules for the owner to act individually and not get multiple bids or something?

Your association should have rules in place for routine issues such as this and consequences for not following the rules. If not, put them in place.
I just read the entire bi-laws again and nothing describes what's in our out of scope for the association vs the owner.

We always get agreement and consensus before making repairs, though I understand that septic issues are time sensitive.
Topic Author
TRC
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TRC »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:47 pm
Pajamas wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:45 pm There has to be something that describes the common property as opposed to the individual property.

Was it against the rules for the owner to act individually and not get multiple bids or something?

Your association should have rules in place for routine issues such as this and consequences for not following the rules. If not, put them in place.
There can be times, such as backed up septic, when getting multiple bids just isn't practical.
And that's when it's nice to have a known plumber (or other vendor) on call, rather than needing to "take anyone who can do the job at any quoted price".

How bad was the situation?
If the septic was backing up and plumbing was unusable...?

RM
The owner didn't state how bad it was. Just that the first guy couldn't figure it out, stuck her with a bill. Then the second guy did figure it out and stuck her with another bill.
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Pajamas
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by Pajamas »

TRC wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 9:13 pm
I just read the entire bi-laws again and nothing describes what's in our out of scope for the association vs the owner.
It might not be in the by-laws. Check the master deed that was used to create the condominium.
TTBG
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TTBG »

Are you sure the backup was caused by negligence? A common source of backups is a crack in the line that lets roots grow into the pipe.

And a septic backup can be a pretty unpleasant experience; unless there were well established procedures already in place for getting board approval *quickly*, I probably would have called the plumber myself too.
Topic Author
TRC
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by TRC »

TTBG wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 9:27 pm Are you sure the backup was caused by negligence? A common source of backups is a crack in the line that lets roots grow into the pipe.

And a septic backup can be a pretty unpleasant experience; unless there were well established procedures already in place for getting board approval *quickly*, I probably would have called the plumber myself too.
This person bought the unit from a prior owner who used to primarily rent it out during the summer. There's a high degree of likelihood that renters flushed things they weren't supposed to flush. It's near the beach and the closest trees are 100 feet away behind the property. The receipt says the blockage occurred at a "long sweep 90".
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BostonBoy
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by BostonBoy »

I was on the board of my condo for years and we were advised to go by the following rule. If the offending line or pipe was being
strictly used by only one unit then that owner was responsible for the repair costs to their unit. If the line or pipe served multiple
units it was the associations responsibility.
surveyor
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by surveyor »

A septic line and a sanitary sewer lateral are two very different things. You're talking about a sanitary sewer line which may or may not be shared by all four units.
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Watty
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by Watty »

TRC wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:01 pm My opinion is that this is a plumbing issue caused by improper things being flushed down the toilet.
Your opinion does not really mean a lot unless the plummer documented what was the cause was. It could just be a routine blockage.

It might be good to have the sewer lines inspected. It seems odd that the first plumber could not fix it if it was just a blockage. I would be concerned that the sewer line might be cracked especially if the building is older.
Last edited by Watty on Tue May 08, 2018 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mouses
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by mouses »

Watty wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 11:06 am I would be concerned that the sewer line might be cracked especially if the building is older.
+1
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Pajamas
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by Pajamas »

BostonBoy wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 10:32 am I was on the board of my condo for years and we were advised to go by the following rule. If the offending line or pipe was being
strictly used by only one unit then that owner was responsible for the repair costs to their unit. If the line or pipe served multiple
units it was the associations responsibility.
Depends on how the condominium is set up and described legally as far as common elements and individual units. Usually there are at least some common elements that would fall outside of the rule you describe that the association would be responsible for legally.

This is why it is so important to check the documentation (deed, bylaws, master deed) to see what actually applies to this particular condominium rather than to simply speculate or go by intuition or follow examples from other condominiums.
TRC wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 8:37 pm I guess the part we're struggling with is that this seems like owner's negligence and misuse that caused the issue.
Even if that is true, the association might be responsible for the costs and then seek to recover them from a negligent owner. For instance, if an individual condo owner damaged the steps to the building with their vehicle, the association would be responsible for the repairs but would seek to recover the cost from the individual owner if it could be determined that they had caused the damage.
ralph124cf
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by ralph124cf »

Are you sure that this is a condo? It sounds more like a townhouse, which would likely have different rules than a condo.

Ralph
Dottie57
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Re: Condo Association - who pays for septic repair?

Post by Dottie57 »

ralph124cf wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 8:01 am Are you sure that this is a condo? It sounds more like a townhouse, which would likely have different rules than a condo.

Ralph
Townhouse (structure) can have condominium ownership(legal),
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