What career for smartest kid in the class?

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

If I were the smartest in the class, and I probably was until my family moved to a better school district, I would consider both intellectually and emotionally what I wanted to achieve, and create a path.

As things worked out what I wanted to achieve changed over time. I accomplished most of it.

PJW
staythecourse
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by staythecourse »

bubbadog wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:09 pm
katnok wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:43 pm I'm a Pediatrician, and certainly do not want my kids to become doctors.

I love being a Pediatrician, but it's disheartening to see how many non-doctors with as little as 27 months of ONLINE training and 1-year of clinical rotations are being allowed to see children. To make things worse, these people can get another ONLINE degree in 12months while working full-time, and call themselves doctors. There's no question quality of care is not at the center of everyone that employs "providers" that received their degree online. Money is all that matters. Most parents/patients have no clue whether they are seeing a real doctor or not, but when they get a medical bill, they are paying the same as they would have paid if they saw a physician.

Everyone, except the physicians, have a say in how a healthcare system is supposed to run, and whether quality of care is being provided or not.
It seems like the trend is to replace physicians with "mid level providers" and then have one physician "supervise" those providers. I am seeing this in my area.

If my children decide to become physicians, I am going to strongly encourage them to stay away from fields that this can easily happen (peds, primary care).
Isn't this a problem not just in medicine, but every career? The idea is maximize profits and the best way to do that is to use less expensive labor. I don't see this getting better in any field INCLUDING medicine. Personally, with automation, AI, and growth of midlevel providers I don't see a single field of medicine that is not going to be affected. Do you really need a CT surgeon in every case? Probably not. PA's do a lot of the work. Throw in more PA's, expand their roles, have machines help out, and just have the important 30 minutes of the case be done by 1 CT surgeon rotating between OR rooms. The profit margin goes up as their is less CT surgeons salaries to pay. The liabilities still fall on the surgeon and as long as all the midlevels were practicing in their scope the hospital liability stays the same. Seem unbelievable now, but can tell you there is NO SINGLE FIELD that can not be affected by some combination of: Automation, AI, and expanded responsibilities of mid levels. IF it happens or not is a different story.

Heck, maybe even make residents and fellows working years longer and use them as cheap labor as more university systems are infiltrating/ acquiring private hospitals. That is a good balance between midlevels and attending physicians. So win-win for hospital profits and the public wanting more qualified providers. Since their pay is paid by the governement then CMS can come back and say we are cutting reimbursement as it is part of our budget paying for x, y, z procedure.

Again not saying any of this WILL happen, but as you can see it is not implausible. The biggest problem with being in medicine is it is a HIGHLY regulated occupation. You can't just do what you want (good or bad).

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
staythecourse
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by staythecourse »

triceratop wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:48 pm I'll add that I was (in my opinion, and the stated opinion of my professors) the smartest kid in my high school / college classes and went the PhD route, possibly the professorship route but we'll see. The gratification one gets from original research that changes and enhances human understanding of our world is suited for some people.

I'll get back to the Bogleheads in 20 years with whether it was the right decision.
If you like what you do and pay the bills then it can NEVER be the wrong decision.

Good luck.

p.s. I am immense respect for researchers. Took a year off before residency and did a research fellowship at MGH and really respected the commitment to advancing science.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
lightheir
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by lightheir »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:29 pm
Doroghazi wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:04 pm I retired from Cardiology 13 years ago at age 54. If I were doing it now, I would choose a career other than Medicine. The average med school debt is $195,000, and we have turned physicians into professional students. If you start med school at age 25 and want to be a Cardiology subspecialist, you could be elected President of the United States before you could sit for your Board exams.
A contemporary who went to Law School could be partner before a physician finishes trainng. MBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000 and hold a responsible, or even prominent position, while a physician is in the financial purgatory of training.
If you were the smartest kid in the class, who could do whatever you want, what career would you choose? I would be an MBA.
Doroghazi,

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

Calvin Coolidge
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/calv ... dge_414555

There are many millionaires in my family. Some graduated from the top schools with graduate degrees. Some never enter high school.

The only constant among them are

A) They are persistent.

B) They are frugal.

<<I retired from Cardiology 13 years ago at age 54. >>

My older brother and older sister early retired at 49 years old.

KlangFool
I strongly disagree.

If you want to talk motivation beyond compare, just look at the millions of folks ready to hustle at all cost for their future in China India and elsewhere. Just because they work super hard doesn't guarantee success in the slightest.
TheNightsToCome
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

GCD wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:49 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:01 pm There is no SUBSTITUTE for calling your own shots so no matter if the kids is the smartest or dumbest being your own boss is the way to go IF you can pull it off.

Good luck.
I think this is definitely true with regard to how happy one is and how much job satisfaction they have. It seems the people who continue working past the point at which they can retire either own their own company or have reached the point at which they are unsupervised in an established company.

I know the happiest I ever was for pure job satisfaction was when I ran my own tree removal business. I went down another path after college, probably for the best. But I often missed being my own boss.
Holding all else equal, it is best to be your own boss, but all else isn't equal.

I created and managed (with a partner) a critical care staffing business (while working full-time as critical care physician), and later founded and managed a private cardiology practice. These enterprises depended on me, and the hours were unsustainable in both cases.

I've also worked for a large financial services company as an equity analyst, and I'm currently an employed cardiologist. The latter has worked out best in my case. I'd prefer control, but I'm very happy that I don't have to handle the billing, staffing, HR, office mgmt, and other owner chores. My hospital employer leaves me alone to practice cardiology, which is the only job I actually want to do. Moreover, I have a reasonable call schedule and workload as an employee. That was never the case when I had my own show.
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beyou
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by beyou »

Everyone thinks the grass is greener.
But no physicians...you are NOT special.
We all have to work hard to be successful at almost anything we do. And the only way that happens is if you pick a career for which you have both aptitude and interest.

I went into financial tech ultimately after considering many careers as a teenager. Yes you had to pay tuition, and study while I was earning money early in my career. But at that phase of one’s career, I worked many hours to learn, same as you did in med school and as an intern. And the pay early in was terrible. Not everyone worked as hard as I did, but after many years of hard work, I make as much as an average doctor, at about the same age you would do so. Others who didn’t work make less than the lowest paid doctors. And those who picked tech for $ alone usually leave the profession when they find they are not good enough, not enjoying enough to work long hours, and not interested enough for a lifetime of learning. You think you need lots of education ? The human body has not changed in our lifetimes, tech completely changes continually. There is no amount of training that is sufficient in tech, you have to love it.

And to the complaints about PA and NP providing services, do you realize that when your bank offshore their IT work to India, experienced people are laid off and replaced by a never ending rotation of recent college grads. Don’t be surprised when your bank/fund website is down, your ira rollover is not processed smoothly. People will not pay for quality until they have a problem. Why do you think your profession is exempt ?

If my kids loved medicine or tech, I would tell them either is fine, if they have enough exposure to be sure they will enjoy the journey, not just the destination. There are many roads to Dublin, but most are muddy and a slow grind.
FireProof
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by FireProof »

Seems like "smart" is too narrow a characteristic to be deterministic. I was the smartest kind in the class by some measures, but also way too lazy to have gone through med school, too anti-authoritarian to do most business jobs, etc. And that's not even discussing the wide variety of skill sets, tastes and passions.

If the question is what career should a capable grind pursue to most efficiency accumulate money, that's at least clearly defined and answerable.
Last edited by FireProof on Sun May 06, 2018 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GCD
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by GCD »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 6:15 pm
GCD wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:49 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:01 pm There is no SUBSTITUTE for calling your own shots so no matter if the kids is the smartest or dumbest being your own boss is the way to go IF you can pull it off.

Good luck.
I think this is definitely true with regard to how happy one is and how much job satisfaction they have. It seems the people who continue working past the point at which they can retire either own their own company or have reached the point at which they are unsupervised in an established company.

I know the happiest I ever was for pure job satisfaction was when I ran my own tree removal business. I went down another path after college, probably for the best. But I often missed being my own boss.
Holding all else equal, it is best to be your own boss, but all else isn't equal.

I created and managed (with a partner) a critical care staffing business (while working full-time as critical care physician), and later founded and managed a private cardiology practice. These enterprises depended on me, and the hours were unsustainable in both cases.

I've also worked for a large financial services company as an equity analyst, and I'm currently an employed cardiologist. The latter has worked out best in my case. I'd prefer control, but I'm very happy that I don't have to handle the billing, staffing, HR, office mgmt, and other owner chores. My hospital employer leaves me alone to practice cardiology, which is the only job I actually want to do. Moreover, I have a reasonable call schedule and workload as an employee. That was never the case when I had my own show.
My business wasn't nearly as complicated as yours. I didn't have nearly all the things on my plate as you did. I'm sure you were compensated far better than I was too. A lot of the fond memories probably wouldn't have been nearly as wonderful if I had tried to scale the business up to a hugely profitable level.

Tree removal definitely isn't a job for the smartest kid in the room! So maybe a little off topic for this thread.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

FireProof wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 6:22 pm Seems like "smart" is too narrow a characteristic to be deterministic. I was the smartest kind in the class by some measures, but also way too lazy to have gone through med school, too anti-authoritarian to do most business jobs, etc. And that's not even discussing the wide variety of skill sets, tastes and passions.

If the question is what career should a capable grind pursue to most efficiency accumulate money, that's at least clearly defined and answerable.
I agree with FireProof, and would like to add that if I were the smartest in the class the last thing I would need is somebody telling me what career to pursue. Given that they're almost certainly stupider than me all I could use their opinion for would be negative advice.

PJW
Pawpatrol
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Pawpatrol »

I don’t even know what “the smartest kid” even means. As someone who trains and mentors doctors I would define “smartest” as the person with the clearest understanding of what they know, what they don’t know and when to ask for help. They seek what they don’t know and constantly look for feedback to improve and are self motivated. I think medicine is still a great field despite the drawbacks and feel the hate is overstated. I would choose what I do now in a heart beat. Also, intellegence in medicine is really not that important past a certain level. Working in teams, working with families and patients and knowing how to take care of yourself are much more important.
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SmileyFace
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by SmileyFace »

MBAs are a dime-a-dozen. There are a lot of successful business folks who don't hold MBAs - they hold technical degrees, etc. and work there way into CEO/executive positions.
I believe your physician degree got you an almost guaranteed high salary. An MBA gets you a low starting salary and you've got to make it into what you can.
stlrick
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by stlrick »

Easy question. The happiest, most unstressed, successful people I know are orthodontists.
FireSekr
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by FireSekr »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:24 pm
Doroghazi wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:04 pm I retired from Cardiology 13 years ago at age 54. If I were doing it now, I would choose a career other than Medicine. The average med school debt is $195,000, and we have turned physicians into professional students. If you start med school at age 25 and want to be a Cardiology subspecialist, you could be elected President of the United States before you could sit for your Board exams.
A contemporary who went to Law School could be partner before a physician finishes trainng. MBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000 and hold a responsible, or even prominent position, while a physician is in the financial purgatory of training.
If you were the smartest kid in the class, who could do whatever you want, what career would you choose? I would be an MBA.
If you are the smartest (and most driven) kid in the class, and your goal is money, then Big Law, Big 3 Consulting, or investment banking will probably work out better than medicine, but those jobs are generally up-or-out and the lifestyle will probably be just as awful as cardiology. Many burn out before the big payday. You'll find many affluent and miserable people in those careers.
Yes, the big 3 consultancies (MBB) often require an MBA and have a stressful up-or-out culture, but there are many niche consultancies that pay as well or better and have a better work life balance.

I happen to work in a niche consultancy and don't have an MBA. My hours range from 35-45 hrs a week and my firm is definitely not up-or-out. There are consultants who are perfectly happy staying in their current role and never advancing, and we are happy to have them as long as they put out good quality work and are fun to work with. If you have a knack for business development and enjoy it, it is fairly easy to work your way up.

That said, I'm currently in talks with one of the big 3 about potentially working there. I realize it will be more challenging, but I have friends there and the work that they're doing is far more interesting intellectually vs. what I'm doing.
KlangFool
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by KlangFool »

triceratop wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:42 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:39 pm Folks,

If the goal is to make money, why spend the money in the first place?

My family member gave each one of his kids 200K before they graduated college. So, it does not matter what they do. They will be rich.

My kids save and invested their money before they graduated. They will have around 25K to 30K of investment after they graduated.

KlangFool
Who said the singular goal is to make money?
triceratop,

That was OP's definition of success.

KlangFool
katnok
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by katnok »

blevine wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 6:20 pm
And to the complaints about PA and NP providing services, do you realize that when your bank offshore their IT work to India, experienced people are laid off and replaced by a never ending rotation of recent college grads. Don’t be surprised when your bank/fund website is down, your ira rollover is not processed smoothly. People will not pay for quality until they have a problem. Why do you think your profession is exempt ?
The complaint was not made in comparison to another profession. It was made simply to show the kind of changes (not good) happening in medical profession, where a lot of non-doctors are playing doctors to the detriment of patient care.
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cheese_breath
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by cheese_breath »

MBA isn't a career. It's a degree that could open the door to multiple different careers.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
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munemaker
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

finite_difference wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:38 pm 1. Cancer research/immunotherapy.
2. Robotics.
3. Aerospace.
4. Quantum computing.
5. Artificial intelligence.
6. Vaccine development (Zika, AIDS, etc.)
7. Antibiotics.
8. Self-driving cars.
9. Electrical and electro-optical engineering.
10. Curing incurable diseases (Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, etc.)
11. CO2 removal/reduction technology.

Those are some areas where we need our smartest folks.
Yes, but they are not careers.
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munemaker
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by cheese_breath »

munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
Maybe he's not doing it for the money.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
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munemaker
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

cheese_breath wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:56 pm
munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
Maybe he's not doing it for the money.
That was OP's definition of success.
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market timer
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by market timer »

Generally, research is the career choice for the smartest people, if we are talking IQ (not EQ or other forms of intelligence).

Some of the most lucrative careers mentioned--CEOs, investment bankers, and law firm partners--require a fairly high IQ but also high EQ. I think very high IQ people can have difficulty relating to others, so often do not have a high enough EQ to do well in careers that require salesmanship/rainmaking.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by coachd50 »

munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:06 pm
cheese_breath wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:56 pm
munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
Maybe he's not doing it for the money.
That was OP's definition of success.
Perhaps he is trying to demonstrate that he doesn't think it is a wise decision to use that as your measure of success.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
I'm not a fighter pilot, and I think folks in the military are in it for something greater in mind. If I had the age, same level of mental and physical stamina/fortitude required, it would be something I would seriously consider as a prestigious career. One of my relatives was a fighter pilot in the Korean War, I recall a huge sense of pride in the whole family, not just immediate. He was quite successful. He transitioned into private sector and the success followed him. Remember, eventually fighter pilots do retire to something else, they are not in the same role forever.

BTW, people risk their lives for our collective safety every day for amounts far less. It's not always about the money.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
staythecourse
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by staythecourse »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 6:15 pm
GCD wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:49 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:01 pm There is no SUBSTITUTE for calling your own shots so no matter if the kids is the smartest or dumbest being your own boss is the way to go IF you can pull it off.

Good luck.
I think this is definitely true with regard to how happy one is and how much job satisfaction they have. It seems the people who continue working past the point at which they can retire either own their own company or have reached the point at which they are unsupervised in an established company.

I know the happiest I ever was for pure job satisfaction was when I ran my own tree removal business. I went down another path after college, probably for the best. But I often missed being my own boss.
Holding all else equal, it is best to be your own boss, but all else isn't equal.

I created and managed (with a partner) a critical care staffing business (while working full-time as critical care physician), and later founded and managed a private cardiology practice. These enterprises depended on me, and the hours were unsustainable in both cases.

I've also worked for a large financial services company as an equity analyst, and I'm currently an employed cardiologist. The latter has worked out best in my case. I'd prefer control, but I'm very happy that I don't have to handle the billing, staffing, HR, office mgmt, and other owner chores. My hospital employer leaves me alone to practice cardiology, which is the only job I actually want to do. Moreover, I have a reasonable call schedule and workload as an employee. That was never the case when I had my own show.
Funny, as I started solo practice in one of the largest cities in the country and it was a piece of cake. As I said on other posts there is a discount on autonomy. Folks prefer easier over the extra work attached to running your own business. Do I spend time thinking about my practice beyond what an employee would do? Of course. BUT I do ANYTHING I want. My kid started KG this year and just changed my schedule to get out to pick up my kid from KG. Try doing that if you have a boss. I can do WHATEVER I want WHENEVER I want.

I can tell you for me the extra time I spend thinking about running a practice is A LOT less mental stress then knowing I have to jump if anybody asked me to jump. It is NOT for everyone, but can say there is a reason folks who are self employed work well past what their financial needs are. Heck, I may never retire or I can just hire someone to work give them a huge chunk of revenue and just take a fraction as the owner to keep doing all the admin stuff. The option of being self employed is endless, but to each their own. I do agree it takes a certain personality trait to do your own thing and unfortunately that trait is not as common with each generation of physician.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by woof755 »

I will not fully steer my kids away from medicine. But I will steer them away from a specialty that involves night and weekend call.
It's just the worst.
"By singing in harmony from the same page of the same investing hymnal, the Diehards drown out market noise." | | --Jason Zweig, quoted in The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing
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munemaker
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:16 pm
munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
I'm not a fighter pilot, and I think folks in the military are in it for something greater in mind.
Some are definitely in it for something greater, as you say. From experience with people I know (not me), some end up in the military because they simply don't know what else to do.
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corn18
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by corn18 »

munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:06 pm
cheese_breath wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:56 pm
munemaker wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:54 pm
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:46 pm ...
Fighter pilot
A fighter pilot with a decade of military flying can earn $90,000. So you are risking your life for that? Wondering why it is on your list?
Maybe he's not doing it for the money.
That was OP's definition of success.
Did you infer a definition? I didn't see one in the OP. I saw one question and answered it without inferring any criteria.
Doroghazi wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:04 pm I retired from Cardiology 13 years ago at age 54. If I were doing it now, I would choose a career other than Medicine. The average med school debt is $195,000, and we have turned physicians into professional students. If you start med school at age 25 and want to be a Cardiology subspecialist, you could be elected President of the United States before you could sit for your Board exams.
A contemporary who went to Law School could be partner before a physician finishes trainng. MBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000 and hold a responsible, or even prominent position, while a physician is in the financial purgatory of training.
If you were the smartest kid in the class, who could do whatever you want, what career would you choose? I would be an MBA.
Don't do something, just stand there!
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Better2bWise »

I would become a CRNA. I have and I would do it again.
staythecourse
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by staythecourse »

woof755 wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm I will not fully steer my kids away from medicine. But I will steer them away from a specialty that involves night and weekend call.
It's just the worst.
The question is will a field like that exist going forward? As more physicians are employed continuing as a trend there are less and less private gigs available going forward. That means most will be hired by corporate medicine. As reimbursements are shrinking and increased customer request for availability increases there will be more and more evening and weekend clinic hours. That and the endless expectations of the consumer to have a doctor available ASAP ALL THE TIME I see nights and weekend hours increasing for EVERY specialty.

The only way to avoid that would be a concierge practice or cash pay practice. Then again those are the same folks who want evening and weekend availability.

Hope I am wrong, but don't see how it wouldn't happen in any city big enough where any person really wants to live. Most new docs want to live not only in big cities, but LARGE metro. cities.

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
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munemaker
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

corn18 wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:39 pm

Did you infer a definition? I didn't see one in the OP. I saw one question and answered it without inferring any criteria.

The OP refers to doing even better by making higher salary, so that explicitly defines salary as the measure of goodness. I really don't want to debate this back and forth. It's not a big deal to me.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by beyou »

katnok wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:47 pm
blevine wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 6:20 pm
And to the complaints about PA and NP providing services, do you realize that when your bank offshore their IT work to India, experienced people are laid off and replaced by a never ending rotation of recent college grads. Don’t be surprised when your bank/fund website is down, your ira rollover is not processed smoothly. People will not pay for quality until they have a problem. Why do you think your profession is exempt ?
The complaint was not made in comparison to another profession. It was made simply to show the kind of changes (not good) happening in medical profession, where a lot of non-doctors are playing doctors to the detriment of patient care.
This whole thread is meant to compare professions. And many professions have less trained alternatives that provide some level of service that may or may not be correct. So from that perspectice, medicine is no
worse than other professions. In fact it’s better in the sense that consumers know when they see a NP or PA. In many professions people are not able to clearly and obviously distinguish themselves from lesser trained persons.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Irisheyes »

I was not the smartest kid in the class but did go the Ph.D route and was eventually tenured.

Resigned my post to go into business with my partner (rural vacation property) and that was a lot more challenging and also more personally rewarding than the tenured professorship. Even after I became tenured, I hated having a boss -- higher up admins/deans/chairs who had some sway over one's work product, no matter how minimal. Working for myself was like a breath of fresh air.

My kid wants to go into architecture. I will heavily encourage her to open her own architecture office in due course so that she can work for herself.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

staythecourse wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
woof755 wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm I will not fully steer my kids away from medicine. But I will steer them away from a specialty that involves night and weekend call.
It's just the worst.
The question is will a field like that exist going forward? As more physicians are employed continuing as a trend there are less and less private gigs available going forward. That means most will be hired by corporate medicine. As reimbursements are shrinking and increased customer request for availability increases there will be more and more evening and weekend clinic hours. That and the endless expectations of the consumer to have a doctor available ASAP ALL THE TIME I see nights and weekend hours increasing for EVERY specialty.

The only way to avoid that would be a concierge practice or cash pay practice. Then again those are the same folks who want evening and weekend availability.

Hope I am wrong, but don't see how it wouldn't happen in any city big enough where any person really wants to live. Most new docs want to live not only in big cities, but LARGE metro. cities.

Good luck.
"But I will steer them away from a specialty that involves night and weekend call.
It's just the worst."

Amen.

"The question is will a field like that exist going forward?"

Derm, path, pain mgmt, anes with surg center only practice, many psy practices (so I've been told), allergy/immunology? Any call in these specialties will be benign, if it exists at all.

My call is much lighter as an employee than it ever was in private practice, but I'm not in a lifestyle specialty (only myself to blame for that).
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by EnjoyIt »

TheNightsToCome wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 9:24 pm
staythecourse wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:52 pm
woof755 wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm I will not fully steer my kids away from medicine. But I will steer them away from a specialty that involves night and weekend call.
It's just the worst.
The question is will a field like that exist going forward? As more physicians are employed continuing as a trend there are less and less private gigs available going forward. That means most will be hired by corporate medicine. As reimbursements are shrinking and increased customer request for availability increases there will be more and more evening and weekend clinic hours. That and the endless expectations of the consumer to have a doctor available ASAP ALL THE TIME I see nights and weekend hours increasing for EVERY specialty.

The only way to avoid that would be a concierge practice or cash pay practice. Then again those are the same folks who want evening and weekend availability.

Hope I am wrong, but don't see how it wouldn't happen in any city big enough where any person really wants to live. Most new docs want to live not only in big cities, but LARGE metro. cities.

Good luck.
"But I will steer them away from a specialty that involves night and weekend call.
It's just the worst."

Amen.

"The question is will a field like that exist going forward?"

Derm, path, pain mgmt, anes with surg center only practice, many psy practices (so I've been told), allergy/immunology? Any call in these specialties will be benign, if it exists at all.

My call is much lighter as an employee than it ever was in private practice, but I'm not in a lifestyle specialty (only myself to blame for that).
Lifestyle medical professions are rare and hard to get. Maybe not for "the smartest kid in the class." But you get my point. I would also add jobs that allow you to wind down and work as much or as little as you want. Derm, immunology, pain management are decent examples. Emergency Medicine, Critical care and hospitalist can be reasonable options. You can work as much or as little as you want. For example one of my friends is a CC doc who now works 1 week every 4 weeks with the 3rd or 4th workweek being nights. She loves her life and her practice.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by jlawrence01 »

The child should be steered into a career that they are passionate about. I see so many people in careers that they care little about and generally, their work reflects that.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by triceratop »

KlangFool wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:46 pm
triceratop wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:42 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:39 pm Folks,

If the goal is to make money, why spend the money in the first place?

My family member gave each one of his kids 200K before they graduated college. So, it does not matter what they do. They will be rich.

My kids save and invested their money before they graduated. They will have around 25K to 30K of investment after they graduated.

KlangFool
Who said the singular goal is to make money?
triceratop,

That was OP's definition of success.

KlangFool
In fact the OP did not define success in any way.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by TheNightsToCome »

triceratop wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 10:20 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:46 pm
triceratop wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:42 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 5:39 pm Folks,

If the goal is to make money, why spend the money in the first place?

My family member gave each one of his kids 200K before they graduated college. So, it does not matter what they do. They will be rich.

My kids save and invested their money before they graduated. They will have around 25K to 30K of investment after they graduated.

KlangFool
Who said the singular goal is to make money?
triceratop,

That was OP's definition of success.

KlangFool
In fact the OP did not define success in any way.
Maybe the OP will chime in, but I thought he implied that other paths led to more money (and with less training) and that made them superior alternatives.

See:

"A contemporary who went to Law School could be partner before a physician finishes trainng. MBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000 and hold a responsible, or even prominent position, while a physician is in the financial purgatory of training."
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Twood »

How smart is the level of smart we are talking about? "Normal", "gifted", "highly" or "exceptionally" or "profoundly gifted"? http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm After a point, it doesn't matter, one can/is capable of doing anything they are interested in. Here are some IQ ranges by occupation, http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx and https://www.electronicproducts.com/News ... er_IQ.aspx make it seem like one *can* do anything starting at an approximately highly gifted IQ level. One must have other criteria for selection that meets ones own values, as many others here have pointed out, along with interest, persistence, determination, and likely some level of innate knack for the field.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by JBTX »

Doroghazi wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:04 pm I retired from Cardiology 13 years ago at age 54. If I were doing it now, I would choose a career other than Medicine. The average med school debt is $195,000, and we have turned physicians into professional students. If you start med school at age 25 and want to be a Cardiology subspecialist, you could be elected President of the United States before you could sit for your Board exams.
A contemporary who went to Law School could be partner before a physician finishes trainng. MBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000 and hold a responsible, or even prominent position, while a physician is in the financial purgatory of training.
If you were the smartest kid in the class, who could do whatever you want, what career would you choose? I would be an MBA.
I think there is always the grass is greener syndrome. I understand your thinking. It was the reason I decided not to pursue med school (while one never knows for sure, I think my grades and test scores would have been good enough to get in). But I just didn’t see myself as having the stamina to go through all that school, the long hours and modest pay of internship and residency, etc. The debt wasn’t quite as bad then as is not.

So I got an accounting degree and mba from a well known school. It certainly got me earning faster, but I didn’t go the high earning consulting or investment banking route. After a certain point the mba becomes merely a credential. What drives your earnings is your experience and performance.

Also, chances are if you are earning big bucks with mba you are probably in a high stress job with a lot of responsibility and a lot of hours. There aren’t a lot of opportunities to scale back. With an MD, while
A lot of stress and responsibility after a certain point I would think you could choose if you wanted to scale back your practice once you hit your 50s and debts are paid off.

As to law school, there is now a glut of lawyers. The best can still do very well, but on the bottom end it isn’t nearly as lucrative and you may have to pursue tracks you don’t much like.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by hmw »

I was the smartest kid in my high school class. I am a surgeon now. I would not want my son to enter medicine. My wife is from a very entrepreneurial family and she is slowly “brainwashing” our son to be an entrepreneur. :happy
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by arf1410 »

mouses wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:28 pm I would get a job in a field I was interested in, regardless of what it paid, assuming I could live on the salary, which is what I did with one bad exception. Going after just money is a sure way to waste one's life.
+1
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by mouses »

katnok wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:33 pm
FreeAtLast wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 3:00 pm
katnok wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:43 pm I'm a Pediatrician, and certainly do not want my kids to become doctors.

I love being a Pediatrician, but it's disheartening to see how many non-doctors with as little as 27 months of ONLINE training and 1-year of clinical rotations are being allowed to see children. To make things worse, these people can get another ONLINE degree in 12months while working full-time, and call themselves doctors. There's no question quality of care is not at the center of everyone that employs "providers" that received their degree online. Money is all that matters. Most parents/patients have no clue whether they are seeing a real doctor or not, but when they get a medical bill, they are paying the same as they would have paid if they saw a physician.

Everyone, except the physicians, have a say in how a healthcare system is supposed to run, and whether quality of care is being provided or not.
Katnok -

Please clarify. I assume you are referring to Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants?

Thanks,
Free
1. An example of an 100% online 2-year Family Nurse Practitioner degree https://nursing.columbusstate.edu/fnp.php
2. An example of 100% online 1-year DNP degree for NPs https://www.samford.edu/nursing/dnp
3. While there are some good programs, a lot of new NPs are coming out of these online programs (so called diploma mills), and are being pushed by their NP organizations to actively lobby for independent practice at the cost of patient care. Many of these courses also teach lobbying as part of their curriculum, something doctors never taught. They want everyone to get a doctorate, so patients will have no idea if they are physicians or not.
4. There are a good number of ERs and urgent cares that are replacing physicians with NPs and PAs for the sake of saving money.
5. A few years ago, one hospital in upstate NY ran an entire ER with NPs and PAs until things couldn't get any worse.
6. Physicians who speak up and question the care provided by poorly trained NPs and PAs are labelled problem physicians and risk losing their employment.
I was shocked when I found out that someone who had introduced himself to me as Dr. X was just a PA. It appears that the local ER is staffed by one doctor and the rest are PAs and some sort of other occupation, not clear to me what that is, less than a PA though.
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munemaker
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

Possibly nurse practitioner.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by katnok »

blevine wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 9:10 pm
katnok wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 7:47 pm
blevine wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 6:20 pm
And to the complaints about PA and NP providing services, do you realize that when your bank offshore their IT work to India, experienced people are laid off and replaced by a never ending rotation of recent college grads. Don’t be surprised when your bank/fund website is down, your ira rollover is not processed smoothly. People will not pay for quality until they have a problem. Why do you think your profession is exempt ?
The complaint was not made in comparison to another profession. It was made simply to show the kind of changes (not good) happening in medical profession, where a lot of non-doctors are playing doctors to the detriment of patient care.
In fact it’s better in the sense that consumers know when they see a NP or PA. In many professions people are not able to clearly and obviously distinguish themselves from lesser trained persons.
Going forward, you may not be able to tell if an NP/PA who will introduce himself/herself as a doctor is a physician or not. Their organizations are pushing them to get doctorates, which they can - 100% online and in 12 months and while working full-time. An example here https://www.lynchburg.edu/graduate/phys ... l-science/
I have personally come across NPs with online DNP degrees introducing themselves as doctors. How many patients do you think will really ask for their credentials? Most patients are unsuspecting.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Cruise »

My wife was the second-smartest in her high schoool graduating class and got her Ph.D. In grad school, she was known as a highly conscientious and bright student. After years climbing the professorial ranks, she is a top administrator at a university. She misses her research, and the autonomy a professorship brings.

I was far from the smartest kid anywhere, but my work ethic and organizational acumen in grad school got me pegged as the star of my cohort of PhDs. I ended up not pursuing academia, and after getting my MBA mostly worked as a self-employed consultant. I enjoyed it until I didn’t. Then I sold my consultancy so I could return to school and Learn something completely different.

What to guide kids towards? Work ethic, and a vision that propels them to achieve an objective that they find meaningful.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by munemaker »

katnok wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 5:27 am ... How many patients do you think will really ask for their credentials? Most patients are unsuspecting.
Don't doctors usually have their credentials hanging in their office? Then you don't have to ask.

One time in the last year, I called for an appointment with my doctor who was on vacation. The scheduler said there was an opening with a physician's assistant, if that was ok with me. I said sure, and I think she did just as good of a job as my doctor would have for my minor issue. No, I would not want her to perform a heart transplant, but for the usual minor issues, I think it is fine.
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by Psyayeayeduck »

I don't know if I would use the word "smartest" in this context because someone who is book smart could be a street idiot (and vice versa). I see a few problems with this question because (1) you are dictating what your kid should be versus what the kid wants to be, (2) being the smartest kid in a particular class doesn't mean they will be the smartest in another environment (i.e., "smartest" is very subjective), (3) people assume money equals success without incorporating satisfaction/happiness when picking a career, and (4) not all of the "smartest" careers are created equal.

So my suggestion when it comes to this question is to determine what the kid's interests are, provide realistic feedback on each of the career paths you suggest, and make sure that the kid doesn't do anything that would hinder their growth before their career even starts (e.g., heavy drug use, alcoholic stupidity, teenage pregnancy).
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by denovo »

Doroghazi wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:04 pm I retired from Cardiology 13 years ago at age 54. If I were doing it now, I would choose a career other than Medicine. The average med school debt is $195,000, and we have turned physicians into professional students. If you start med school at age 25 and want to be a Cardiology subspecialist, you could be elected President of the United States before you could sit for your Board exams.
A contemporary who went to Law School could be partner before a physician finishes trainng. MBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000 and hold a responsible, or even prominent position, while a physician is in the financial purgatory of training.
If you were the smartest kid in the class, who could do whatever you want, what career would you choose? I would be an MBA.
Do a bit of research on means and medians and so forth for those alternate careers. The operative word is "could". A high school varsity basketball player in high school could become an NBA superstar, but the odds are low.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by JoeRetire »

Doroghazi wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 2:04 pmMBAs do even better.They could make $1,000,000

I would be an MBA.
By this train of thought, anyone could make $1,000,000.

It's not too late. If you have retained some of your smarts, you could still be an MBA. Speaking from personal experience, It's not all that difficult.
Of course, also speaking from personal experience, most MBAs do not earn $1,000,000.

(BTW, MBA is not a career - it's a degree.)
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Re: What career for smartest kid in the class?

Post by JoeRetire »

rongos wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 4:32 pm We need more smart people in politics.
Sadly, we don't seem to vote based on that need.
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